Serious question about a hated subject - Lorica Segmentata

[Cbvani]

With EB II having variable skins for units, will LS be a possible skin for Marian and Imperial Roman legions, even if it isn't common?

[Foot]

No. We have answered this question several times already. Do a search.

Foot

[General Appo]

I think it even says so in the FAQ.

But seriously Foot, are you sure it isn´t possible to set up a huge flashing banner saying "No LS in EB!" that shows everytime you enter the forum?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

There are only 4 (or was it 5?) body models per unit. For EB's time frame 1/4 (or 1/5 even) of a unit having LS would still be too much.

[Cyrus]

I keep seeing posts over posts about this but no one ever (and I mean ever) said what lorica segmentata is. Would anyone mind answering?

[satalexton]

hollywood armour that only historically appeared for roughly a century, sometime around 2AD IIRC

[Ibn-Khaldun]

This is Lorica Segmentata:

http://armillum.com/tienda/images/DEEPEEKA/segmentata.jpg

[Cyrus]

more or less what sentury was that? i've only seen that armour in movies you're right!!!

[Cbvani]

In my defense, it wasn't in the FAQ. I checked there. The only reason I raised it is because in-game reforms can happen earlier than they actually did, so EB doesn't precisely follow history. Therefore, LS might appear on the battlefield for Imperial legions, because it was invented earlier in-game.

[Foot]

In my defense, it wasn't in the FAQ. I checked there.

Really? Mayhap you are mistaken:



Q: Will there be Lorica Segmentata in EB2?
A: Lorica Segmentata was not widely used within the games time frame. Even though it could be argued that it was used to a minimal extent at the very end of the time frame the team has decided not to include any Lorica Segmentata in the official EB2 releases.


Foot

[General Appo]

Trampled.

[Gleemonex]

In my defense, it wasn't in the FAQ. I checked there. The only reason I raised it is because in-game reforms can happen earlier than they actually did, so EB doesn't precisely follow history. Therefore, LS might appear on the battlefield for Imperial legions, because it was invented earlier in-game.

The 'problem' we have with the lorica segmentata isn't only that it's mostly ahistorical in our timeframe -- it's that it can often be the source of endless pleadings and complaints by Hollywood-Rome fanboys. Your inquiry was honest and polite, but it's also the hojillionth time a variation on this question has been asked.

-Glee

[ludwag]

Can you have Imperial Gallic helmet in EB2?

[General Appo]

Don´t know what that is, but if comes from the Imperial period, as it´s name suggest, than that would pretty much be outside EB´s timeframe wouldn´t it?

[Ludens]

more or less what sentury was that? i've only seen that armour in movies you're right!!!

First and second century AD. The oldest known example of LS was found at Kalkriese and is presumed to be a relic from the battle of Teutoburger forest, which would place it at 9 AD. That's just inside EB's time-frame. However, we have no idea how common it was. A single suit suggests that it was pretty rare. It wouldn't become common until around 50 AD, and even at the height of it's popularity, many if not most legionaries would use chainmail rather than LS.

[ludwag]

Don´t know what that is, but if comes from the Imperial period, as it´s name suggest, than that would pretty much be outside EB´s timeframe wouldn´t it?

http://www.redrampant.com/roma/helmets.html

yes. but what i ment was the coolus-pattern helmets, they look a bit of the same. I think the Montefortino helmet is so ugly. Especialy with a tassel on it :(

[General Appo]

From that link: "Coolus C Late Augustan to Tiberian period."

Sounds like it´s mostly outside EB´s timeframe. You personally thinking a helmet us ugly is really no basis of not including it.

[Majd il-Romani]

From that link: "Coolus C Late Augustan to Tiberian period."

Sounds like it´s mostly outside EB´s timeframe. You personally thinking a helmet us ugly is really no basis of not including it.

Although I agree that the imperial Gallic helms look WAY better than montefortino, I still think it should be in but not for that reason. In EB both Antesignani and Praetorians wear them! So aeeing that EB2 has variable skins some soldiers can have nomteforino and others can have imperial gallic, etc.

[Aemilius Paulus]

LS could technically appear as an armour upgrade in EB II (no unit slots taken up), but that's too much work already, especially for something that was generally outside of the EB II/I time period. No matter how "cool" it is, I would not want it in EB.

[General Appo]

LS could technically appear as an armour upgrade in EB II....

Yet again, we aren´t quite sure the LS actually was that much of an upgrade.

And just for the record, I think LH is way cooler than LS.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

And just for the record, I think LH is way cooler than LS.

I disagree.. If LH would've been cooler then Hollywood would have used it instead of LS :clown:

[Zarax]

Holliwood uses it because it's cheaper to make, not really cooler...

[Gleemonex]

I disagree.. If LH would've been cooler then Hollywood would have used it instead of LS :clown:

I think Hollywood use(d) it mainly because it was distinctive, not necessarily because it was cool.

-Glee

[Foot]

I think Hollywood uses it because they use re-enactors who use Lorica Segmentata more than the other types. Why LS is more common in re-enactment groups I don't know, but it probably stems from attempts to recreate it as its construction is largely unknown. Experimentation lead to large numbers being made as it became more and more popular, and Hollywood used it in its films. Hollywood is a leach, not an innovator.

Foot

[Gleemonex]

Hrm. In that case, I would posit that Hollywood started using LS according to the Gleemonex model (it's not like there is/was a lack of chain mail in Tinsel Town), but continued due to the Foot-Zarax postulate. We need 10 ccs of film buff, stat!

-Glee

[Iraklis]

You know... last time i "tryed" to watch a movie with historical subject i saw a "roman legion" wearing leather lorica segmentata and using testudo against infantry in open field battle :dizzy2:
I never made "that" mistake again...

[lobf]

Hollywood is a leach, not an innovator.

Foot

:inquisitive:

Because they're ignorant of the popularity of an obscure form of armor? I would imagine people here use that armor because it's easy to make look cool and it's widely associated with Romans. Hollywood still does some fantastic stuff.

[Ibrahim]

http://www.redrampant.com/roma/helmets.html

yes. but what i ment was the coolus-pattern helmets, they look a bit of the same. I think the Montefortino helmet is so ugly. Especialy with a tassel on it :(

the gallic types are mostly late 1st cenutry AD onwards. the early EB period would mostly be Montifortinos. check this place out:

http://www.larp.com/legioxx/helmets.html

[abou]

Actually, there is a fair amount of evidence through monuments that helmets other than Montifortinos would be used.

[Ibrahim]

Actually, there is a fair amount of evidence through monuments that helmets other than Montifortinos would be used.

hence the use of "mostly":yes:

[abou]

Actually, even "mostly" might be too strong of a word. We don't really know, but I've seen both Sidon-type helmets and Atto-Thracian types on Roman monuments featuring Roman soldiers.

[ludwag]

But why not use Coolus helmets? They are so cool-us.(like in cool)~:joker:~:joker:~:joker:

[Aemilius Paulus]

I think Hollywood use(d) it mainly because it was distinctive, not necessarily because it was cool.

-Glee

Couldn't have been more correct there! Everyone uses maile, not to mention that the average person most commonly associates maile with Medieval times, but Lorica Segmentata on the other hand, was something special, something more exotic and unique.

[ljperreira]

Actually only bits and pieces of the Kalkriese lorica was found, not enough to completely recreate the Lorica. But many Lorica Segmentata fittings were found. In case you don’t understand, the fittings are the hinges, tie hooks, buckles, etc. used on the Lorica Segmentata. This is the case at many sites where Loricas plates are found. The reason for this is that the fittings are made of bronze and deteriorate at a very slow rate (if at all). The Lorica plates, on the other hand, are made from iron which deteriorates at a much faster rate. After the ambush of the Roman Legions at Kalkriese the bodies lay exposed to the elements for years, and it wasn’t until 15 AD that Germanicus and his Legions found the battle site and buried the bones of the lost Legionaries. It is said that the bones were found piled in heaps and skulls nailed to trees, which obviously means the Germans stuck around after the battle and could have made off with the valuable iron of the Lorica (to melt down or sell). Some scholars believe that due to the evidence that Loricas were already being used by some Legions or Legionaries by 9 AD, the Lorica Segmentata may have been in use even earlier than that.
I dabble in Roman Legionary Reenacting and have given school presentations on the Armor and weapons used by Legionaries. Ive made two Kalkriese Loricas based on the findings at the battle site mixed with elements of the Corbridge type A Lorica. I modified Legion XX’s Corbridge A pattern, and used the pictures of the Kalkriese Lorica diagram at their site (http://www.larp.com/legioxx/kalklor.html).
So, I think that you can realistically add some units wearing the Lorica Segmentata and still be authentic. Its your mod and your choice, but I believe you are being overly stubborn about it.
You can see my Loricas in use at a school presentation on our Myspace page (http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=370139281) check out the pics. And yes, we're wearing glasses. We didn't want to but we also didnt want to fall over the kids or otherwise hurt ourselves.

[Foot]

wait, so we are being stubborn for not spending resources on creating an armour that only appears in the archaelogical record in 9AD, I mere 5 years from our end-date. Yeah, thats definately an unreasonable position to be in. We are not the ones who are stubborn. We've made our position clear many times over, we've laid out our reasons over and over again, yet still the Lorica Seg issue is brought up again and again.

Foot

[Gleemonex]

So, I think that you can realistically add some units wearing the Lorica Segmentata and still be authentic. Its your mod and your choice, but I believe you are being overly stubborn about it.


We've made our position clear many times over, we've laid out our reasons over and over again, yet still the Lorica Seg issue is brought up again and again.

And you guys are surprised that we're fed up of hearing about it?

-Glee

[Ibrahim]

wait, so we are being stubborn for not spending resources on creating an armour that only appears in the archaelogical record in 9AD, I mere 5 years from our end-date. Yeah, thats definately an unreasonable position to be in. We are not the ones who are stubborn. We've made our position clear many times over, we've laid out our reasons over and over again, yet still the Lorica Seg issue is brought up again and again.

Foot

amen to what you said.

@abou: yes, I see. I might need a better word indeed:yes:

[Cbvani]

Trampled.

Dang. I could've sworn it wasn't. Yeah, pretty much trampled.

[keravnos]

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=12701

The end of Lorica segmentata... and the reasons behind it.

[ljperreira]

wait, so we are being stubborn for not spending resources on creating an armour that only appears in the archaelogical record in 9AD, I mere 5 years from our end-date. Yeah, thats definately an unreasonable position to be in. We are not the ones who are stubborn. We've made our position clear many times over, we've laid out our reasons over and over again, yet still the Lorica Seg issue is brought up again and again.

Foot

Honestly, I couldnt care less if you add the Lorica to the game or not. Im still going to play it because you folks do a good job with your mods. But, with that being said, that was my first and only post on the subject (I havent been following the mod, I have better things to do). So no, I haven't brought it up again and again. And you should expect to see this subject come up, because you are making a mod about the Roman Empire, and Roman Legionaries did wear Loricas for a time. I only added the above comment because unlike many of you, I have actually made several Loricas. I don't just play the game, I make the equipment so I can give a better lecture on what Ive experienced for myself. Ive also made and worn chain mail as well as a lamellar cuirass, and I honestly feel that the Lorica is the most comfortable and provides the best protection overall. Chain mail only protects you against slashing cuts or stabs, but not against blunt force trauma. The Lorica provides protection for all of the above, and requires less padding.
My post was not a request for the modders to add the Lorica, but to shed a little more light on the Lorica subject. I felt that, since Ive done some research on the matter, my input would be helpful to whoever was interested. The fact that you're bored with the subject is you're own problem, so try biting someone elses head off.

P.S. The reason why most reenactors use the Lorica Segmentata armor is because most Legionary reenacting groups portray the invasion of Britain in AD 43, a time when most historians agree that the Legionaries were predominantly using the Lorica Segmentata, and Auxiliaries were using the Lorica Hamata.

Also, by the way, the Corbridge hoard findings actually made a complete Lorica Segmentata reconstruction possible.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Honestly, I couldnt care less if you add the Lorica to the game or not. Im still going to play it because you folks do a good job with your mods. But, with that being said, that was my first and only post on the subject (I havent been following the mod, I have better things to do). So no, I haven't brought it up again and again. And you should expect to see this subject come up,

I suggest you to read Foot's post a good bit more closely (people isn't the same as you, right?); as well as contemplate the meaning of FAQ threads.


because you are making a mod about the Roman Empire, and Roman Legionaries did wear Loricas for a time.

Thank goodness, we're not! I suggest reading the front page of the EB Website (https://www.europabarbarorum.com).


I only added the above comment because unlike many of you, I have actually made several Loricas. I don't just play the game, I make the equipment so I can give a better lecture on what Ive experienced for myself. Ive also made and worn chain mail as well as a lamellar cuirass, and I honestly feel that the Lorica is the most comfortable and provides the best protection overall. Chain mail only protects you against slashing cuts or stabs, but not against blunt force trauma.

I've worn the Lorica myself, and I'd be very much surprised if the Lorica did give you such (or indeed any at all) advantage against Brute (!) Force trauma. Seeing as what my fist can do to a can, you'd rather not suffer what my hands + suitable axe or mace can do to your Lorica.

[ljperreira]

I've worn the Lorica myself, and I'd be very much surprised if the Lorica did give you such (or indeed any at all) advantage against Brute (!) Force trauma. Seeing as what my fist can do to a can, you'd rather not suffer what my hands + suitable axe or mace can do to your Lorica.

Actually, the Lorica is made up of 18 gauge to 16 gauge steel, each row overlapping the other. The torso plates all overlap from top to bottom, and the shoulder guards overlap from the upper shoulder guard down to the mid collar plates and the lesser shoulder guards. The overlapping is the strength of the armor. Ive hit it with many things including hammers, and it takes the punishment very well (Ive even shot arrows from an english longbow my brother owns at it, besides scraping a brass hinge, the arrows didn't penetrate the armor). The weakness in the Lorica is the fittings (hinges, tie hooks, etc.), which will fail quicker than the steel (or iron) plates. Im not saying the lorica is impervious to blunt force trauma, a rock solid hit will make you uncomfortable. But chain mail, in comparison, does not absorb the impact, you do. The very thing that most people like about chain mail, its flexibility, makes it very uncomforable when recieving a good solid hit. Can you say bruised and/or fractured ribs?
Also, planting a good solid hit into any armor is pretty hard when you also have to get by the shield, and the Legionary's comrades.
The comment about what your fist can do to a can.....are you speaking of say, a trash can, or a soda can? Well, either one doesnt matter, honestly if you tried hitting a real Lorica with your fist you'll end up with a very sore fist and a perfectly good Lorica Segmentata.

[Gleemonex]

Roman Legionaries did wear Loricas for a time. I only added the above comment because unlike many of you, I have actually made several Loricas. I don't just play the game, I make the equipment so I can give a better lecture on what Ive experienced for myself.

That's a laudable (and probably damn fun) pass-time. But unless you personally made a few thousand of them prior to 14AD, your experience is completely irrelevant to EB's decision to not include the LS.

Hell, there was a poll about doing away with the Augustan reforms altogether hardly a month ago.

-Glee

[Majd il-Romani]

ljperreira does make sense, but I think thayre not including it in EB2 because it simply isnt in the EB time frame and it'd have to be extended a good 50 years for it to have been widley used, not becaues LS r teh suxxorz!zomg!

[ljperreira]

That's a laudable (and probably damn fun) pass-time. But unless you personally made a few thousand of them prior to 14AD, your experience is completely irrelevant to EB's decision to not include the LS.

Hell, there was a poll about doing away with the Augustan reforms altogether hardly a month ago.

-Glee

The making of it is fun until you start on the fittings, which all have to be hand made. Its very tedious and time consuming to make multiple hinges, buckles and buckle hinges, and so on.
The best part is when you're done, when someone compliments you on you're accomplishment. Its pretty neat when you see the look on some peoples faces when the see for the first time something they've only read about. Especially the kids, they seem to get a kick out of it.

And, once again, I dont follow the EB II progress posts and such. I just ran into this topic and decided to give my input. For crying out loud, ive only posted a few times since I joined in 2006, so obviously im not a regular around here. And also, once again, im not trying to sway EB's decision. The topic is "Serious question about a hated subject - Lorica Segmentata". Its perfectly legal for me to give my opinion and some of my knowledge on the matter, since that is the purpose of this topic. If you're tired of the subject, if you dont want to read any more on it, THEN DONT!!! Bypass the topic for something else, and dont harass someone who responds to it.

[Gleemonex]

Its perfectly legal for me to give my opinion and some of my knowledge on the matter, since that is the purpose of this topic. If you're tired of the subject, if you dont want to read any more on it, THEN DONT!!! Bypass the topic for something else, and dont harass someone who responds to it.

It's perfectly legal, but anything other than a complete stonewall on our part results in a flood of pro-LS posts. Ergo, we can't bypass the topic; or rather, every time we do, it turns into a flame fest and gets locked. I'm beginning to think that's the primary reason Foot is called Foot :holmes:

And I appreciate your not taking our strong-ish words too personally. But as I mentionned earlier in the thread, this subject comes up a mojillion times and we don't really have the time or energy to respond with anything other than a 100% absolutely hell no. Unless you guys want to play EBII on the Duke Nukem Forever 2 engine.


The making of it is fun until you start on the fittings, which all have to be hand made. Its very tedious and time consuming to make multiple hinges, buckles and buckle hinges, and so on.
The best part is when you're done, when someone compliments you on you're accomplishment. Its pretty neat when you see the look on some peoples faces when the see for the first time something they've only read about. Especially the kids, they seem to get a kick out of it.

Now THIS I have no problems discussing!

Are you a history teacher? Or do you just do little demonstrations for kicks? I'm teaching here in China, and I've thought of dressing up to teach kids about Western history (and to show the locals that the West wasn't just a bunch poo-slinging australopithecenes until Marco Polo came along).

I've even shown clips of HBO's Rome to some of my adult students. They found it hard to follow, lacking basic knowledge of Greco-Roman culture. But I had lots of fun telling them about the wild old Greco-Roman days.

Also -- can't you use pre-fab hinges and buckles? Nobody expects you to learn to make late-Roman sheet metal after all, so it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to use mass-produced fittings.

-Glee

[ljperreira]

Ahhhh, ok, I think I was taking it personally. I figured that since someone had opened a topic on the subject, it was open season. Now I know better.

Anyhow, I'm working on my History credentials as we speak, with a goal to teach at a college or University. Since I do Living History presentations for the public (Roman Legionary, American Civil War, WWII) my brother and I get invitations from schools to give presentations on the use (and sometimes, construction) of weapons and armor. I've made plate armor (Roman and Medieval), Helmets (Dark age and Medieval), chain mail, and Lamellar.
Dressing up in period attire enriches the subject matter, no longer are you just some teacher droning on about history. Instead the students can actually see and feel the weapons, armor, attire, what have you from the time period.

I try to make my armor projects as authentic as possible. The fittings have specific requirements in order to be true to the originals. The hinges, for example, were originally made double layered for strength, and so the hinge tube is formed when you fold the bronze in half. Modern hinges are single layered, and the tube is formed by rolling the edge. Hopefully that makes sense. So, in order to have authentic hinges, you'd have to make them yourself, because I havent found any sources for these type of hinges (I wish there was, the lobate hinges used on the Corbridge type A is very time consuming to make). And thats just the beginning.....check out this site for more info: http://www.larp.com/legioxx/lorica.html

HBO's "Rome" is a great story, but authenticity is out the door (like so many other movies made). I still own both seasons, though......

[ludwag]

I think what people really want is the legionaries to look more tough. Part one is to use coolus helmet instead of montefortino. bigger shoulders. Not shaved every morning, and a bit dirty. Maybe some marks and cuts in their armour.
EDIT:
I made a little picture very fast to show you what i mean. I put lipstick on the montefortino-guy to amplify my point. I hope you understand what direction I think the legionaries should go.
https://img55.imageshack.us/img55/8475/adfsdfasdfasdfasdvh4.jpg

[Jolt]

I think what people really want is the legionaries to look more tough. Part one is to remove the montefortino/ make them more tough. bigger shoulders. Not shaved every morning. And things like that.

EDIT:
I made a little picture very fast to show you what i mean.

I put lipstick on the montefortino-guy to amplify my point.

Haha, nicely done. Anyways, if someone wishes to play with Imperial Cohorts, WW2 helmets and adamantine armor, it's pretty simple. Just model and skin the said units with anything you wish, replace the legionary unit, then edit it's stats so it becomes as uber as you like. Problem solved.

[Gleemonex]

Ahhhh, ok, I think I was taking it personally.

Well, we've seen worse :wink:


So, in order to have authentic hinges, you'd have to make them yourself, because I havent found any sources for these type of hinges (I wish there was, the lobate hinges used on the Corbridge type A is very time consuming to make). And thats just the beginning.....check out this site for more info: http://www.larp.com/legioxx/lorica.html

That sounds like a pretty intense hobby! I'll bet you have a wicked Hallowe'en costume lined up.


HBO's "Rome" is a great story, but authenticity is out the door (like so many other movies made). I still own both seasons, though......

Well, I wouldn't teach post-secondary history with it. But taken for what it is, it's an excellent series by any measure. The only major anachronicity -- stirrups -- were a concession to actor safety.


I made a little picture very fast to show you what i mean.

I put lipstick on the montefortino-guy to amplify my point.

:laugh: Very nice.

-Glee

[QuintusSertorius]

Christ on an f-ing bike, why are people obsessed with lorica segmentata? I just don't get it. It doesn't even look good, mail is much cooler. More to the point, it didn't exist in the period. So why do people keep asking?

[General Appo]

They have been brainwashed by Foot. And yes, LH is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay cooler.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Actually, the Lorica is made up of 18 gauge to 16 gauge steel, each row overlapping the other. The torso plates all overlap from top to bottom, and the shoulder guards overlap from the upper shoulder guard down to the mid collar plates and the lesser shoulder guards. The overlapping is the strength of the armor. Ive hit it with many things including hammers, and it takes the punishment very well (Ive even shot arrows from an english longbow my brother owns at it, besides scraping a brass hinge, the arrows didn't penetrate the armor). The weakness in the Lorica is the fittings (hinges, tie hooks, etc.), which will fail quicker than the steel (or iron) plates. Im not saying the lorica is impervious to blunt force trauma, a rock solid hit will make you uncomfortable. But chain mail, in comparison, does not absorb the impact, you do. The very thing that most people like about chain mail, its flexibility, makes it very uncomforable when recieving a good solid hit. Can you say bruised and/or fractured ribs?
Also, planting a good solid hit into any armor is pretty hard when you also have to get by the shield, and the Legionary's comrades.
The comment about what your fist can do to a can.....are you speaking of say, a trash can, or a soda can? Well, either one doesnt matter, honestly if you tried hitting a real Lorica with your fist you'll end up with a very sore fist and a perfectly good Lorica Segmentata.

Soda can: but that steel is of much, much very much better quality than any Lorica was. And it has the benefit of the ideal shape to withstand such blunt force trauma. You see blunt force trauma is not just broken ribs: it's also internal bleeding, shock and other nastiness you won't immediately see. What Lorica segmentata undoubtedly is good at is resisting force, but that is not the same as dissipating that force. The force will be still echoed back to the thing in the can, which now happens to be your body; you can see that from the example of the soda can within it is air which does not resist the applied force at all, instead it moves out -- leaving the can to crumble under the impact of my fist.

[oudysseos]

What you need to know about Tellos Athenaios: Don't make him angry. You won't like him when he's angry.

Especially if you're a pop can.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Am I the only one who thinks this thread should be locked?

[ljperreira]

Soda can: but that steel is of much, much very much better quality than any Lorica was. And it has the benefit of the ideal shape to withstand such blunt force trauma. You see blunt force trauma is not just broken ribs: it's also internal bleeding, shock and other nastiness you won't immediately see. What Lorica segmentata undoubtedly is good at is resisting force, but that is not the same as dissipating that force. The force will be still echoed back to the thing in the can, which now happens to be your body; you can see that from the example of the soda can within it is air which does not resist the applied force at all, instead it moves out -- leaving the can to crumble under the impact of my fist.

The overlapping plates help to dissipate the force of the strike by allowing the energy to travel from one plate to the next. The padding underneath the armor also absorbs some of the energy. That's not to say you won't feel any of it, but it's sure better than taking that same strike wearing chain mail (which will cause the broken ribs, internal bleeding, and all the other nastiness you speak of). Also, as I've said before, this only occurs if your opponent is able to get by your shield and your comrade's shields on the left, right, and in back of you (his shield can be used to protect your head from overhand strikes). So it stands to reason the your Segmentata (or Hamata) is not your first line of defense, but your second or third and your shield being the first.

The metal we use for Segmentatas is 18 gauge mild steel (cold or hot rolled) due to the fact that iron sheet is really hard to get, and work.
But as far as steel being better, it just depends on what you're using it for. Steel is made to be forgivable, and will dent if hit with enough force. Iron is more rigid, but brittle, and shouldnt dent if hit. But if hit hard enough, may crack. At least, this is how I understand it, as I am not a metallurgist I may be wrong. Smarter people than myself have discussed this very thing on "Roman Army Talk" http://www.romanarmy.com/rat/viewtopic.php?t=10525&highlight.
Look at Chris's explanation on page two (he is a metallurgist).

[Gleemonex]

Am I the only one who thinks this thread should be locked?

Actually, this has become pretty civilised (with just enough heat to keep it interesting). Anyone see the devil buying ice skates this morning? :shifty:

-Glee

[ludwag]

I think we should change subject to helmets. I think the imperial Legionary Cohorts should use coolus helmet. And the other things I said about looking tough and dirty and unshaved.

[abou]

Sure, ludwag. Start compiling information then - especially on the unshaven part.

[antisocialmunky]

Am I the only one who thinks this thread should be locked?

If you lock it, there will just be another. You might as well leave this up there so you don't have to deal with another one so soon.

[General Appo]

Sure, ludwag. Start compiling information then - especially on the unshaven part.

Indeed. Seriously, do you have any reason why the Legionaries should be unshaven except that you think it would look cool? `Cause you know, I think the Arcani looked kinda cool, so maybe we should use those too.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Indeed. Seriously, do you have any reason why the Legionaries should be unshaven except that you think it would look cool? `Cause you know, I think the Arcani looked kinda cool, so maybe we should use those too.

No no no! Arcani was not cool! Arcani in LS would be cool, though!

[Zarax]

Indeed. Seriously, do you have any reason why the Legionaries should be unshaven except that you think it would look cool? `Cause you know, I think the Arcani looked kinda cool, so maybe we should use those too.

If you get Arcani I want gastraphetes [/spam]

[ludwag]

Indeed. Seriously, do you have any reason why the Legionaries should be unshaven except that you think it would look cool?
becouse they diddnt shave every morning

[General Appo]

Show me the proof.

[ljperreira]

I like the Imperial Gallic Type A helmet: http://www.romanarmy.com/cms/component/option,com_helmets/task,view/cid,1/Itemid,96/ (orignal) and http://legvi.tripod.com/armamentarium/id254.html (Deepeeka reproduction). The Gallic A is the next helmet Im going to buy (but I havent told my wife yet). I currently own an Imperial Gallic type C made by Deepeka: http://legvi.tripod.com/armamentarium/id211.html, which I also like very much. The Gallic A was used during the late 1st century BC to early 1st century AD, and I think it would be neat to see this one in the game.

I think Ive seen sculptures of Praetorian guardsmen wearing a short goatee type beard, but only once or twice. For the most part I would think that the Legonaries would be clean shaven, being a part of a professional and well trained elite fighting force. But thats just me.

[ludwag]

I am not saying they had beard, but they diddnt have time every morning to shave 5000 men before starting the new days marsh. I think I can find some proof.

[machinor]

I think Argyraspidai Phalangites would look really cool and stylish with sunglasses! And the cataphrakts, you've got to have them smoking a cigarillo like Clint Eastwood in "For A Fistful of Dollars"!! That would look totally cool and awesome!!

[Gleemonex]

I am not saying they had beard, but they diddnt have time every morning to shave 5000 men before starting the new days marsh. I think I can find some proof.

It's not like there was one regimental beard-shaver. Every dude could shave on his own.

-Glee

[Majd il-Romani]

well, first of all lets remember that this is M2, not RTW, :idea2: so since we have the whole variable-skin thing, some soldiers in the century can be shaved and some can be bearded because they didnt have time to shave that morning. Same with the different types of helmets (even though I think imperial gallic looks better) :yes:

[ludwag]

It's not like there was one regimental beard-shaver. Every dude could shave on his own.

-Glee
Shaving is really hard, becouse they only had a knife. To get shaved they had to go to a shaver.

And before a battle they used to stand ready for a long time, away from the camp. sometimes days. And when the battle was going to begin they stood up in formation for many hours.

[machinor]

Real men shave themselves with their gladius or a sharp rock.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

This is a thought about the Lorica Segmentata..

After I saw some of the videos about reenactors wearing their LS I had this thought. One really good reason for wearing LS could be the psychological effect it might of had on enemy.
I mean, before the battle they used to keep their large shields in front of them so that the enemy saw only the shield and man wearing LS. And you all must say that LS looks impressive! It looks like nothing can go through it. So, why to fight the enemy who have large shields, armor that looks impenetrable and can bring their soldiers again and again against you? Better accept the Roman terms and be his servant than fighting in the open field against them and die.

What I want to say is that Lorica Hamata looked just like any other armor in those times but LS looked something entirely different.

[ludwag]

Real men shave themselves with their gladius or a sharp rock.

then they probably should have some scars. I hope someone get my point

[Strategos Alexandros]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_razor

[theoldbelgian]

actually I don't know if it was forbidden butt legionaries had no freaking beards
it says so in a text about some Gallic legionaries after the Battle of canea that they were fired from service and allowed to return home it also says so that some of them let their beards grow back like they were before

[ludwag]

I am not talking about beards. But beeing unshaved

[ljperreira]

actually I don't know if it was forbidden butt legionaries had no freaking beards


https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6254/40558676de0.th.jpg (https://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=40558676de0.jpg) https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/4845/94778041wo4.th.jpg (https://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=94778041wo4.jpg) https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/415/67671062wk6.th.jpg (https://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=67671062wk6.jpg) https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/9703/39879938ok5.th.jpg (https://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=39879938ok5.jpg) https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/8291/80620013lb7.th.jpg (https://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=80620013lb7.jpg) https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1102/56334317tl0.th.jpg (https://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=56334317tl0.jpg)

Well, I think these pics I posted finalize the matter. The first pic is early Roman. The rest are mid to late 1st Century AD, except for the fourth one which is Marcus Aurelius (late 2nd century AD). The second pic has the Legionary who is recieving medical aid wearing a beard (its kinda hard to see). Notice that beards are worn by some and not by others, suggesting personal choice. Also the hair is not worn long, but not short like modern military either.

[ludwag]

But thats only pictures. That is not reallity. And the question is not if they should have beard or not, but if they should be perfectly shaved for every battle. I dont understand why so many want to discuss it.

[Foot]

Ludwag, I really don't know why you've made such a big freaking deal about it. Or why you seem hell-bent on focusing entirely on the romans as the only ones who could have grown stubble whilst standing in formation. I'll tell you what I'll do I'll make sure that every face in EBII has just enough stubble to make you squeal with delight. Sound good, huh?

Foot

[a completely inoffensive name]

Ludwag, I really don't know why you've made such a big freaking deal about it. Or why you seem hell-bent on focusing entirely on the romans as the only ones who could have grown stubble whilst standing in formation. I'll tell you what I'll do I'll make sure that every face in EBII has just enough stubble to make you squeal with delight. Sound good, huh?

Foot

Ouch, a little harsh there?

[ljperreira]

But thats only pictures. That is not reallity. And the question is not if they should have beard or not, but if they should be perfectly shaved for every battle. I dont understand why so many want to discuss it.

Geez, relax dude. First of all, my post wasn't directed at you, but the guy who calls himself "theoldbelgian", since he was so adament that Legionaries wore no beards. Look at the quoted statement and you'll see for yourself. And if anything, I was supporting your stance on Legionaries not having to be clean shaven, because those pictures show some of them wearing beards. And that would suggest that the rules were a bit relaxed on the matter.
You're right, those are just pictures. But pictures of carvings and sculptures made during the time period in question. I'm pretty sure those folks who lived there at that time know a little better than us how the Legionaries looked. They are also one of the best resources for Historians. This is not always the case, but many Roman Histories were written two or three centuries after the fact, making the accuracy of the information a bit questionable. Carvings and sculptures like "Trajans Column" and the "Adamklissi Monument" help historians to cross reference and substantiate each other and the written histories (or discredit them). Taken as a whole (along with any archaeological evidence found) modern historians can find a middle ground in which to agree on any given subject, as in our case: "were Roman Legionaries clean shaven?".

[ludwag]

Ludwag, I really don't know why you've made such a big freaking deal about it. Or why you seem hell-bent on focusing entirely on the romans as the only ones who could have grown stubble whilst standing in formation. I'll tell you what I'll do I'll make sure that every face in EBII has just enough stubble to make you squeal with delight. Sound good, huh?

Foot
woow, but yeah! And I diddnt focus entirely on the romans as the only ones who could have grown stubble, but my point was that the romans had to look more tough. But yeah, I am very gald I will check the dictionary what squel means, but I am looking forvard to it, becouse it sounds good. btw, look what I found when I google stubble to find out what that means: http://www.dphotojournal.com/photoshop-tutorial-adding-beards-stubble-to-a-portrait/

ljiperreira: The wuestion is "did they have beard?" But I think they should be without beard. But something we do know is that if they diddnt have beards, they shaved, but they could be 100% clean shaved all the time.

[oudysseos]

You're not seriously spending this much time thinking about ancient beards?

[theoldbelgian]

Geez, relax dude. First of all, my post wasn't directed at you, but the guy who calls himself "theoldbelgian", since he was so adament that Legionaries wore no beards. Look at the quoted statement and you'll see for yourself. And if anything, I was supporting your stance on Legionaries not having to be clean shaven, because those pictures show some of them wearing beards. And that would suggest that the rules were a bit relaxed on the matter.
You're right, those are just pictures. But pictures of carvings and sculptures made during the time period in question. I'm pretty sure those folks who lived there at that time know a little better than us how the Legionaries looked. They are also one of the best resources for Historians. This is not always the case, but many Roman Histories were written two or three centuries after the fact, making the accuracy of the information a bit questionable. Carvings and sculptures like "Trajans Column" and the "Adamklissi Monument" help historians to cross reference and substantiate each other and the written histories (or discredit them). Taken as a whole (along with any archaeological evidence found) modern historians can find a middle ground in which to agree on any given subject, as in our case: "were Roman Legionaries clean shaven?".

ok now that I have seen the picture, I see that I am wrong
appologies for unintentionally spreading false information to everyone

[abou]

You're not seriously spending this much time thinking about ancient beards?
It's funny, isn't it? I mean, why just the Romans? Why not suggest any other faction or cultural group?

[Pontius Pilate]

WHAT!!!!???!!! How did I not see this post before!!! :wall::wall: I love LS!! Well one reason I think Lorcia Segmenta should be in EB is .... nah, I'm just kidding.


But seriously, I think you guys should have given ljperreira a break, come on, I think he said he has only posted a few times on this forums. And the FAQ is so long, and I'm sure not everyone who downloaded the game actually read the FAQ. It's not like he said he didn't like EB or isn't going to download it, but anyway.

With that said we all know that lorica segmenta isn't going to be in the game, but some of you have said the imperial iron gallic helm shouldn't be in the game(EB II), but I think that helm is actually in EB 1 and it's on the Pretorians, or is that another version of the helm?

Also, I'm am pretty sure most Romans preferred to be clean-shaven and bathe and scrap off dirt on their skin with oil regulary. So I'm guessing the legions would also do this too, although not to the extent as the people back home. (Of course the wealthy aristocrats practiced hyguenine more than commoners.)

Also, I think someone (I think it was Glee??) said they were showing clips of the show "HBO ROME" to people because the show is historically accurate of Roman times. If so, could someone explain to me what I am looking at in this picture, and it is from the show, it shows young Octavian in civil war against Marc Anthony. (p.s. just look at what the people are wearing)

HBO ROME: https://i5.tinypic.com/2zs8rva.jpg


By the way, I wonder if hollywood didn't use LS to the extent that it currently does, would you guys hate LS as much?? Also, I wonder what would happen if there was a huge archealogical finding lets say within the next year, that proved LS was used in aboundance throughout the post-marian timeframe. Would that change the EB's team's mind about including it in the game? But anyway, as of now it's not going to be included no matter what, I know, I know.


Lastly, since alot of people on this forum have already stated their opinion on LS and called it ugly, I would like to state my opinion. Which is that it is very cool, awesome, beautiful, etc. But I also don't mind it not being in the game due to lack of archealogical evidence for it.


Feel free to pick my post apart piece by piece and flame me I am ready this time....:duel:

[Gleemonex]

But seriously, I think you guys should have given ljperreira a break

We did. We're onto ludwag's beard fetish now.


Also, I think someone (I think it was Glee??) said they were showing clips of the show "HBO ROME" to people because the show is historically accurate of Roman times. If so, could someone explain to me what I am looking at in this picture, and it is from the show, it shows young Octavian in civil war against Marc Anthony. (p.s. just look at what the people are wearing)

HBO ROME: https://i5.tinypic.com/2zs8rva.jpg


Well, I wouldn't teach post-secondary history with it. But taken for what it is, it's an excellent series by any measure. The only major anachronicity -- stirrups -- were a concession to actor safety.

I fail to see where any firm statement I've made here is anything but 100% correct. Hint: I emphasised the words that you seem to have missed.


what would happen if there was a huge archealogical finding lets say within the next year, that proved LS was used in aboundance throughout the post-marian timeframe. Would that change the EB's team's mind about including it in the game? But anyway, as of now it's not going to be included no matter what, I know, I know.

Theres' no evidence, even outside of the EB timeframe, that LS at the peak of its use was ever more popular than LH, so no.

-Glee

[Pontius Pilate]

Theres' no evidence, even outside of the EB timeframe, that LS at the peak of its use was ever more popular than LH, so no.


Yes, we all know that LS wasn't used in the EB timeframe but I was saying hypothetically, if new evidence was found would the EB team add it in? Come on, I don't think the team can be that biased, I know someone people on this forum would never ever add LS in no matter what, but the EB team? Also, at its peak LS was used in a significant amount, so much so that if someone had to make a mod about that time period they would have to include the armor. And yes I know EB doesn't cover this time period.

About the HBO ROME show, you still didn't answer my question: what am I looking at in that photo, early version of LS, kalkariese LS, bronze LS, something Hollywood made up? You probably thought I was trying to second guess you right?

[Gleemonex]

Yes, we all know that LS wasn't used in the EB timeframe but I was saying hypothetically, if new evidence was found would the EB team add it in? Come on, I don't think the team can be that biased, I know someone people on this forum would never ever add LS in no matter what, but the EB team? Also, at its peak LS was used in a significant amount, so much so that if someone had to make a mod about that time period they would have to include the armor. And yes I know EB doesn't cover this time period.

I'm not a historian, and I don't play one on EB, but I was speaking hypothetically too. Considering that the historical record for LS trends upwards from Teutoberg on, it would take far more than one good find (plus years of analysis) to change our minds. If we were to look at our unit roster that hypothetically, there are dozens of other units and armour types that we would likely consider first.


About the HBO ROME show, you still didn't answer my question:
what am I looking at in that photo, early version of LS, kalkariese LS, bronze LS, something Hollywood made up? You probably thought I was trying to second guess you right?

Yeah, things get a little edgy when the dreaded LS rears its head around here. Anyhow, that photo is too small to see the band fittings (and I never saw that episode), but the narrow shoulder plates and brass edging look like the BBC/HBO/RAI's take on a common ancestor of the Corbridge and Kalkriese types.

-Glee

[ludwag]

No imperial gallic helmet, but Coolus helmet! IF they should change helmets on the imperial legionaries. I only said imperial gallic ONCE, but i later found out that it is wrong. The monterfortino helmet is too gay, and coolus helmet is inside the timeframe to.

edit: Guess what I found out: they DO use coolus helmet in EB. I just diddnt notice. Becouse they had a tassel on them, and becouse of their colour and stuff.

[bovi]

if new evidence was found would the EB team add it in?
Showing new evidence is something quite other than calling people stubborn, and would have a profoundly different effect.

[Gatalos de Sauromatae]

:horn: Just mod it yourself after EBII release and respect the decision of EB team, please.
PS. I am stalking in EBI and EBII board for a time and now just want to show my opinion of this thread. :weirdthread:

[Pontius Pilate]

Showing new evidence is something quite other than calling people stubborn, and would have a profoundly different effect.

Not really calling the EB team stubborn, but okay, if that's how you want to think. If I wanted to insult then I would say just come out and start trashing the EB team publicly, but I don't think I did. I'm also sure I don't see the word "stubborn" anywhere in my post but whatever. Still nobody has yet to answer the question, would the EB team change their mind? Yes or no? Well since nobody wants to answer I'm guessing it would be yes.



:horn: Just mod it yourself after EBII release and respect the decision of EB team, please.

Would you quote me specifically where I have been disrespectful, please.

[ludwag]

LS discussion is done, and I am sure someone will make a sub mod. I think there should be new subject about if legionaries should have tassel on their helmets. Becouse they sometimes had one, but mostly not.

[Pontius Pilate]

LS discussion is done, and I am sure someone will make a sub mod. I think there should be new subject about if legionaries should have tassel on their helmets. Becouse they sometimes had one, but mostly not.


Yes, good subject! I don't think tassels should be put on legionaries. I personally think that they were used only on special occassions, ceremonial, triumphs, etc. Also, I don't know how practical they would have actually been. Also, I don't know how long they would last in battle and on campaign, they could come loose, get snagged on something, and they're not very robust. Legionaries also look, a little, well feminine with tassels. But then again many sources say they did wear tassels while some don't. Well, that's just what i think.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Seeing some legionaries with tassels and beards would really give a nice impression of a real field army. It would be almost refreshing to see some sloppiness among the Roman soldiers compared to their portrayal in RTW as impeccable, clean, and super disciplined when in reality no army could possibly be like that on the frontier, when fighting against foes year after year.

[ludwag]

Yes, good subject! I don't think tassels should be put on legionaries. I personally think that they were used only on special occassions, ceremonial, triumphs, etc. Also, I don't know how practical they would have actually been. Also, I don't know how long they would last in battle and on campaign, they could come loose, get snagged on something, and they're not very robust. Legionaries also look, a little, well feminine with tassels. But then again many sources say they did wear tassels while some don't. Well, that's just what i think.
exactly what I mean. They must look more tough and dirty like real soldiers on campaign. They probably used them when they fought against other romans and in ceremonies. But now that they have stubble, I am very satisfied allready.

[theoldbelgian]

exactly what I mean. They must look more tough and dirty like real soldiers on campaign. They probably used them when they fought against other romans and in ceremonies. But now that they have stubble, I am very satisfied already.

well I heard that one of the features in mtw2 was that in the beginning of the Battle the armor would shine and after a while fighting it would become dull
also the tassels where used to identify the cohorts I have seen on this forum
just saying what i heard

[Pontius Pilate]

well I heard that one of the features in mtw2 was that in the beginning of the Battle the armor would shine and after a while fighting it would become dull
also the tassels where used to identify the cohorts I have seen on this forum
just saying what i heard

oh yeah I forgot about that feature. yeah as the battle progress the units become covered in blood to make it look more realistic. yeah I heard the same thing about the tassels used for identification, on this forum. although some sources say they didn't use the tassels in battle.

[Gatalos de Sauromatae]

Not really calling the EB team stubborn, but okay, if that's how you want to think. If I wanted to insult then I would say just come out and start trashing the EB team publicly, but I don't think I did. I'm also sure I don't see the word "stubborn" anywhere in my post but whatever. Still nobody has yet to answer the question, would the EB team change their mind? Yes or no? Well since nobody wants to answer I'm guessing it would be yes.




Would you quote me specifically where I have been disrespectful, please.

I didn't mean you disrespect EB team but I meant we all should accept what the EB team will or will not to do for EBII. If you or me aren't satified types of armour represent in EBII, I think there will be many mods or mini-mods coming soon after EBII realease with the LS intact to the game. :medievalcheers:

[bovi]

Not really calling the EB team stubborn, but okay, if that's how you want to think. If I wanted to insult then I would say just come out and start trashing the EB team publicly, but I don't think I did. I'm also sure I don't see the word "stubborn" anywhere in my post but whatever. Still nobody has yet to answer the question, would the EB team change their mind? Yes or no? Well since nobody wants to answer I'm guessing it would be yes.
You need to consider the whole thread as context. ljperreira called us stubborn. Your post indicated an agreement that you doubted that we would consider any new evidence, which is also what I would consider stubborn. Yes, you said we couldn't be that biased, which indicates that you think we are pretty biased, just not that much. I guess that since you say you didn't want to insult, this was not the intended meaning, however. Apologies for misinterpreting.

I did answer your question though. If someone posted new evidence, it would receive an entirely different response than the petitions here, which have not come up with any evidence, but rather insults. Not directed at the original poster, who asked politely but only failed to search the forum before asking.

[eddy_purpus]

With EB II having variable skins for units, will LS be a possible skin for Marian and Imperial Roman legions, even if it isn't common?

in the defense of spam haters.
this is jsut a stupid question by a guy who doesnt even care about the faq, neither what the teams interests are, just his ...
soo.
if FOOT can close this SPAM WASTE. would be good.
:thumbsdown:
thanks

[ludwag]

well I heard that one of the features in mtw2 was that in the beginning of the Battle the armor would shine and after a while fighting it would become dull
also the tassels where used to identify the cohorts I have seen on this forum
just saying what i heard

ah I forgot that. I am looking fovard to see it in eb2. I really like it

[Gatalos de Sauromatae]

in the defense of spam haters.
this is jsut a stupid question by a guy who doesnt even care about the faq, neither what the teams interests are, just his ...
soo.
if FOOT can close this SPAM WASTE. would be good.
:thumbsdown:
thanks


:rtwyes: That's right! :weirdthread:

[Abokasee]

LS armour really shouldn't be used, mainly because having a armour upgrade / unit that will only be avalible in limited numbers for 5 years on a mod of this size will be a total waste of KB and Time, plus LH (Lorica Hamata)

(There always seems to be a slight tone of arrogance and down-looking when I speak with intelligence)

[Pontius Pilate]

in the defense of spam haters.
this is jsut a stupid question by a guy who doesnt even care about the faq, neither what the teams interests are, just his ...
soo.
if FOOT can close this SPAM WASTE. would be good.
:thumbsdown:
thanks


But seriously, what's the point? It's not like it's getting uncivilized around here like in other closed threads. And also, if you close this one there will always be another LS thread in the future to replace this one. Maybe you should just sticky this thread so people won't have to look through the faq to find out about LS, here is a whole thread dedicated to it!

[ludwag]

I made an LS thread, but not about including it in the campaign game, but only in custom battles.. But i have been thinking. And i think lorica hamata is much more awesome

[Foot]

Hey, I know, why don't we just sticky a thread about every question in the FAQ so that lazy, dull people who can't be bothered to open up an FAQ (the same people who seem incredibly unequipped to search for things on google) can have all their questions right there in front of them.

Foot

[Pontius Pilate]

Hey, I know, why don't we just sticky a thread about every question in the FAQ so that lazy, dull people who can't be bothered to open up an FAQ (the same people who seem incredibly unequipped to search for things on google) can have all their questions right there in front of them.

Foot


Well you don't have to sticky every question in the faq, but the LS question isn't a normal question. It keeps popping up in thread after thread after thread after thread. Also, it seems like it is really starting to annoy EB members and other posters alike, so what would be bad about stopping that by making this thread clearly visible when first logging onto the EB II forum. Of course there will always still be one LS post here and there, but not as many. Well it's just a suggestion on how to solve this LS problem, I don't see anyone else trying to help....

[Foot]

An easier way is to just have the question and answer from the FAQ on quick-copy and then close the thread after. I think thats what I'm going to do now.



Q: Will there be Lorica Segmentata in EB2?
A: Lorica Segmentata was not widely used within the games time frame. Even though it could be argued that it was used to a minimal extent at the very end of the time frame the team has decided not to include any Lorica Segmentata in the official EB2 releases.

Foot