Empire using Steam; Gamespot interview/preview

[Fisherking]

http://www.sega.co.uk/news/?n=2427

A bit more that may have been missed.

also this: http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/empiretotalwar/news.html?sid=6200119&tag=nl.e579

[pevergreen]

I may have to completely pass up on an ETW that requires steam, if it does (loading articles now to check)

edit: Ok it requires steam, but that online part will be better than Gamespy right? At least it sounds as though you only have to connect once in total to play single player.

More importantly, if the files are there, what will the .org's status on that be? Will the org endorse its users talking about modifying to gain these units?

[PBI]

edit: Ok it requires steam, but that online part will be better than Gamespy right? At least it sounds as though you only have to connect once in total to play single player.


Yes, if it's similar to the system for Half Life 2, you have to connect to Steam once during installation to activate the game but that's it; none of this nonsense about having to "call home" every few days to keep the game working.

[Belgolas]

I will get it because it will be a great game and want to support them. Why do so many people hate steam? I prefer downloadable content except for special/limited editions. Steam only needs to check once and then you don't need an internet connection to play. You only need to activate it through steam for retail version. Plus the online will be vastly improved because steam has amazong servers. I personally think programs like Steam are the way of the future and that program is the best thing that happened to PC gamming. Plus you get unlimited installs unlike DRM and you useually get discounts. You can also install your steam account on as many computers as you want but only one of them online at one time. You also get to give friends trial copies unlike retail. You also sometimes get free weekends for certain games. The only problem I have with steam and I mean the ONLY problem is that it is impossible to sell games already activated.

Steam is not evil!

[Husar]

I'm starting to think that maybe the game isn't that good after all. Exactly this kind of ways I can think of, if I'm not confident in my games ability to sell itself as an great game. I got great examples, Battlefield: Bad Company and upcoming Call of Duty: World at War.

I actually like Bad company a lot, it's a great game and they made most of the preorder etc weapons available for everybody now, just go to the official site where they have posted the unlock codes.

I thought about buying Empire directly on Steam and now they come and release some special edition with exclusive units, how stupid is that? Means I have to wait and see what else they will offer and then probably order a copy for 200$ from some vendor in Venezuela who has every single unlock code included. :wall:

Concerning modding, since you enter the unlock codes in Steam, I would not be surprised if Steam then downloads the additional units or changes some files if they really want to make it exclusive. Of course in that case I would have rather low hopes for the moddability of the game as well.

I generally like steam as well as long as it works, I can buy a game anywhere and play it on my notebook without carrying all those DVDs around with me. The downsides are probably nonexistant if you live in the US so I won't repeat them here.

[lars573]

I will get it because it will be a great game and want to support them. Why do so many people hate steam? I prefer downloadable content except for special/limited editions. Steam only needs to check once and then you don't need an internet connection to play. You only need to activate it through steam for retail version. Plus the online will be vastly improved because steam has amazong servers. I personally think programs like Steam are the way of the future and that program is the best thing that happened to PC gamming. Plus you get unlimited installs unlike DRM and you useually get discounts. You can also install your steam account on as many computers as you want but only one of them online at one time. You also get to give friends trial copies unlike retail. You also sometimes get free weekends for certain games. The only problem I have with steam and I mean the ONLY problem is that it is impossible to sell games already activated.

Steam is not evil!
Unless the PC you can play it on doesn't have the internet. Then your screwed.

[JR-]

I will get it because it will be a great game and want to support them. Why do so many people hate steam? I prefer downloadable content except for special/limited editions. Steam only needs to check once and then you don't need an internet connection to play. You only need to activate it through steam for retail version. Plus the online will be vastly improved because steam has amazong servers. I personally think programs like Steam are the way of the future and that program is the best thing that happened to PC gamming. Plus you get unlimited installs unlike DRM and you useually get discounts. You can also install your steam account on as many computers as you want but only one of them online at one time. You also get to give friends trial copies unlike retail. You also sometimes get free weekends for certain games. The only problem I have with steam and I mean the ONLY problem is that it is impossible to sell games already activated.

Steam is not evil!
because i don't like my games being treated as a service i rent.

i bought a game, and i want recourse to install and play that game without impediments, such as not having an internet connection.

[gardibolt]

I'd much rather have Steam register it online once during installation than have Securom installing malware that can't be removed.

I'm probably going for the special edition; playing ghurkas could be a riot.:smash:

[Praxil]

Oh and welcome to capitalism....where exploitation of the masses is on the daily agenda...


I'm studying "capitalism" actually, well as far as my profession goes.


Yeah, didn't realized this right away, but the game will be a STEAM game only. It will be interesting how the modification will work in the end in this case. You enter the code or something like that and Steam will upload these units for you. What stops anyone from extracting those new files and sharing them? Unless they are encrypted somehow which leads to a question. How mod able the game really is?

The discuss is also about that you only need the internet access for the activation only. Sure, unless you want to patch your game.

[Joker Obama Girl]

hmmm...Steam me no likey...

[Martok]

Note: I split off this thread from the original discussion of the Special Forces Edition. I felt it was best to keep the two topics separate.

[Monk]

As far as copy-protection or game services go, Steam is actually pretty good. In fact i'd go so far to say it's the ideal system, or at least the best currently on the market. It's not the same Steam that debuted with Half-life 2. It's grown, evolved, and generally become far better than anything we've seen since. The same people who blasted Steam when it was introduced are now people who will sing it's praises. Considering the alternative of draconian DRM that the industry seems to favor these days, i'd say Steam is a pretty good thing.


Unless the PC you can play it on doesn't have the internet. Then your screwed.

At the risk of sounding heartless, who doesn't have internet in this day and age? This isn't 02 when steam first came out, the gaming industry these days pretty much assumes that if you have a computer you're going to have internet access. Just like how many games now only come on DVDs and not cds, it's just the industry moving toward technology.



because i don't like my games being treated as a service i rent.

i bought a game, and i want recourse to install and play that game without impediments, such as not having an internet connection.

I understand the point but in an market climate where the threat of piracy is rampant and increasingly intrusive DRM methods are being taken, I'd say if I had to choose between Steam or SecuROM then I am going with Steam 10 times out of 10 and twice on sunday.

[Zenicetus]

As far as copy-protection or game services go, Steam is actually pretty good. In fact i'd go so far to say it's the ideal system, or at least the best currently on the market. It's not the same Steam that debuted with Half-life 2. It's grown, evolved, and generally become far better than anything we've seen since. The same people who blasted Steam when it was introduced are now people who will sing it's praises. Considering the alternative of draconian DRM that the industry seems to favor these days, i'd say Steam is a pretty good thing.

The problem with anything involving online authorization is the unknowable lifespan of the authorizing company and its servers. What happens when you want to re-visit one of these current DRM'd or online-only download games five years from now, when you'll probably be using a different computer and you'll need a fresh install? Heck, we might even be using a different version of the Internet by then. Are you 100% sure that Steam will still be around then? Have you never re-installed an older game during a dry spell, or just for fun? I do it all the time. PC operating systems have been stable enough that I can load most (if not all) of the games I've bought in the last 5 or 6 years with no problems.

There might be unlocked copies still floating around if Steam goes belly-up... a good company would make sure of that. But that's also a gamble. I think that's a big concern for many of us. Not for everyone, of course. I know friends who go through games a lot faster than I do, and basically never look back at older titles. They treat games as short-term disposables. And to be honest, some genres like shooters are basically disposable after one or two play-throughs. Strategy games, tactical combat sims, and good RPG's can have more potential for long life and re-installation, down the road.

If "renting" instead of true ownership (in the sense of the buyer's freedom to install at any future point in time, hardware-permitting) is indeed be the future of PC gaming, then let's have the game companies just come out and say it. Develop a pricing model that's appropriate for a rental product, instead of this antique notion that a $60 game is a purchase with a guaranteed long lifespan at the user's discretion.

[PBI]

Have you never re-installed an older game during a dry spell, or just for fun? I do it all the time. PC operating systems have been stable enough that I can load most (if not all) of the games I've bought in the last 5 or 6 years with no problems.


To be fair though, anything older than that and I generally find I have to spend a good deal of time and effort to get the :daisy: thing working on a modern computer (and even then it sometimes turns out not to be possible - TIE Fighter, Medieval Total War 1 & the XCOM games, I'm thinking of you ~:mecry:). I guess one could argue that in ten year's time unlocking the by-then highly outdated copy protection of a long-defunct company would probably be a fairly minor hoop to jump through compared to just getting the game to talk to the computer in the first place.

It would certainly be nice if Empire could be released without copy protection, but if we are being realistic that was never going to be a possibility. The final say rests with Sega and no matter how wrong-headed it is we always knew there was no way they would allow the game to be released with no protection. In that light I cannot think of another existing system they could have used which would be preferable to Steam.

I fear it is a sad fact of life these days that a minimal internet connection is a requirement for playing PC games. I remember going through a similar thing 15 years ago or so when games made the transition from floppies to CDs - suddenly, overnight my old 386 was rendered obsolete. It's certainly very annoying, but it's hardly a shocking new development that if you want to play new games you have to be willing to dance to the game companies' tune regarding system requirements.

[Megas Methuselah]

At the risk of sounding heartless, who doesn't have internet in this day and age? This isn't 02 when steam first came out, the gaming industry these days pretty much assumes that if you have a computer you're going to have internet access. Just like how many games now only come on DVDs and not cds, it's just the industry moving toward technology.

Nah, you don't sound heartless. This is the truth. Who doesn't have a computer without internet success? Geez, even my grandmother(Bless her.) has a computer with internet access at home... :smile:


To be fair though, anything older than that and I generally find I have to spend a good deal of time and effort to get the damn thing working on a modern computer (and even then it sometimes turns out not to be possible - TIE Fighter, Medieval Total War 1 & the XCOM games, I'm thinking of you :mecry: ). I guess one could argue that in ten year's time unlocking the by-then highly outdated copy protection of a long-defunct company would probably be a fairly minor hoop to jump through compared to just getting the game to talk to the computer in the first place.

Heh heh, I'm thinking of Ceasar II (Yeah, 2. Not 3.) here, which is a spectacular game. I had to download some program which initiated a miniture ms-dos thingy or whatever, to get the game to work. Even then, the background music doesn't work. Ah well, I just play the music in my head. :beam:

[nameless]

If "renting" instead of true ownership (in the sense of the buyer's freedom to install at any future point in time, hardware-permitting) is indeed be the future of PC gaming, then let's have the game companies just come out and say it. Develop a pricing model that's appropriate for a rental product, instead of this antique notion that a $60 game is a purchase with a guaranteed long lifespan at the user's discretion.

Renting?

I wasn't aware that STEAM users had to pay a monthly fee to use the program. I thought you just register the game and that was it. You don't need Steam online to play the game.


There might be unlocked copies still floating around if Steam goes belly-up... a good company would make sure of that. But that's also a gamble

No offense but I think your bordering on paranoia. Your thinking of the worst case scenario when these companies will go belly-up. You might as well be fearing for the day CA goes bankrupted or Armageddon occuring that would delay the game or your computer blowing up or crashing due to a super-virus.

Using the word, "If" doesn't get you anywhere.

[Monk]

The problem with anything involving online authorization is the unknowable lifespan of the authorizing company and its servers. What happens when you want to re-visit one of these current DRM'd or online-only download games five years from now, when you'll probably be using a different computer and you'll need a fresh install? Heck, we might even be using a different version of the Internet by then. Are you 100% sure that Steam will still be around then? Have you never re-installed an older game during a dry spell, or just for fun? I do it all the time. PC operating systems have been stable enough that I can load most (if not all) of the games I've bought in the last 5 or 6 years with no problems.

There might be unlocked copies still floating around if Steam goes belly-up... a good company would make sure of that. But that's also a gamble. I think that's a big concern for many of us. Not for everyone, of course. I know friends who go through games a lot faster than I do, and basically never look back at older titles. They treat games as short-term disposables. And to be honest, some genres like shooters are basically disposable after one or two play-throughs. Strategy games, tactical combat sims, and good RPG's can have more potential for long life and re-installation, down the road.

If "renting" instead of true ownership (in the sense of the buyer's freedom to install at any future point in time, hardware-permitting) is indeed be the future of PC gaming, then let's have the game companies just come out and say it. Develop a pricing model that's appropriate for a rental product, instead of this antique notion that a $60 game is a purchase with a guaranteed long lifespan at the user's discretion.



Oh i understand completely what you are saying.

It's the same argument that was brought up in the shadow of the Spore fiasco. When does purchasing a game with intrusive protection grant true ownership and when does it only offer a "rental" status, to steal your term. I do much the same, to use a TW game to illustrate your point STW has been on and off my hard drive numerous times over the last ten years. I've even bought the game on three separate occasions, either from losing the CD-key or just breaking the disk. I love that game and its ambiance has not be recreated in the series sense.

However, times have changed. The gaming industry loses millions of dollars each year from piracy and illegal downloads. It is the single greatest threat to developers and companies, and something that has grown by leaps and bounds in the last five years alone. CD-keys have been replaced by Steam-IDs and in much more extreme cases, by pieces of technology that actually verify if you're using the disk or not, or those that actually limit what you're able to do with the game you paid for. The fear that you will be left unable to play ETW after steam is long gone, however, is one I would not hold. To believe that no one, nowhere, would not attempt to crack the steam encoding is a pretty bold statement. There's always work-arounds.

You have to be pragmatic in the market. IMHO Steam is truly the best option of all the copy-protection systems and offers the least intrusive from my own experiences. There may come a day when a better and more reliable option than Steam presents itself, and when that happens I will gladly sing its praises as well. But with the memories of the recent copy-protection experiments made by EA,(which is to say nothing of SecuROM on Kingdoms!) I take the news of ETW being a "steam powered" game with a grain of salt. So I am smiling, because it could be a lot worse. :beam:

[lars573]

At the risk of sounding heartless, who doesn't have internet in this day and age? This isn't 02 when steam first came out, the gaming industry these days pretty much assumes that if you have a computer you're going to have internet access. Just like how many games now only come on DVDs and not cds, it's just the industry moving toward technology.
I don't have internet on the PC that I play games on. Far far too much trouble and expense.

[ljperreira]

I was going to buy this game for my brother when it came out. He has just deployed to Iraq, and he's not sure if he'll have I-net access over there (it may be $90-$100 a month if it is available). This "steam" idea just put a dent in that plan. He was looking forward to this one but he may have to wait until he comes back. ~:(

[nameless]

I don't have internet on the PC that I play games on. Far far too much trouble and expense.

Is setting up a wireless network that much trouble?

I mean running an ethernet cable from a router was much more trouble than just installing a wireless adapter into a computer.

I have 3 computers in the house and all of them are linked to one router (Brought it way back in 2005ish and it's still kicking) and my other relatives who come by to stay have laptops that also access the system themselves.

That is of course I'm assuming you do have internet on another PC.

[Husar]

So, if the authentication servers possibly going offline is such a big issue, I guess you're using Linux then?

[lars573]

Is setting up a wireless network that much trouble?

I mean running an ethernet cable from a router was much more trouble than just installing a wireless adapter into a computer.

I have 3 computers in the house and all of them are linked to one router (Brought it way back in 2005ish and it's still kicking) and my other relatives who come by to stay have laptops that also access the system themselves.

That is of course I'm assuming you do have internet on another PC.
Yes it is that much trouble for wireless. It didn't work having to go through the microwave, fridge, and stove. And going between two seperate buildings.

[Belgolas]

K well about life span. I have tried many times to get shogun TW on my PC and have even bought it a few times because I love that game but on a modern computer it just has to many graphical glitches. So your arguement is mute.

[Sorry, but talking about no-cd cracks still isn't allowed, even in this context. -- Martok]

Also I have formatted my hard drive many many times, built many different computers and have run on many different computers and still have not had even ONE problem with steam. I have even run my account on a mac too (running windows). So in other words I have personally installed steam using my account on half a dozen different computers and about a few dozen reinstalls. Not one problem. Plus there are some of my old favourites on steam like the commander keen series.

I wouldn't mind if steam was the ONLY way to play all games. It just works and is bassically the laziest system to use. No poping in cds, going to google to find patches, one store to buy games, discounted prices regularly, built in chat program to talk to finds, etc.

Again why do people hate steam? I can see soldiers not liking it but at least the soldiers in Iraq should be coming home soon!


On a side not about internet we have a large house and have a wireless N router in the middle and have over 13 different pc/consoles,printers,ect connected to it all at once and have no problems.

[Zenicetus]

To believe that no one, nowhere, would not attempt to crack the steam encoding is a pretty bold statement. There's always work-arounds.

Sure, but it's a question of how much hassle you want to deal with, to just launch an older, favorite game. I have a pile of those. Just shove the disk in the machine, and I can install them. Should I have to go online and start searching for a pirated version, to play one of those older games that I already paid for, years ago?

And some of these older games aren't going to be high profile enough for the hackers to bother with. Those of us who like difficult, realistic strategy games, tactical combat sims and flight sims, etc., are at the bottom of the "A list" when it comes to games people bother to crack.

I would actually prefer a decent rental model. Let me pay something like $3 USD a month for a game with replayability like a strategy or RPG that I might play for a year, and a lot more per month for something with a short shelf life like a FPS.... instead of charging me $60 for a game I might not be able to play a few years from now. Don't price games like a long-term commodity if they're not usable past a few installs.

[Akka]

However, times have changed. The gaming industry loses millions of dollars each year from piracy and illegal downloads. It is the single greatest threat to developers and companies, and something that has grown by leaps and bounds in the last five years alone.
I call BS. That's what the industry is whining, but it's blatant lies. Piracy has ALWAYS been rampant, and it has not changed in the last years. If anything, it has considerably lessened compared to the pioneering years, when the people with a computer exchanged truckloads of floppy disks with plenty of games in them, and nobody though much about "pirating".

Nowadays, there is lots of laws, sueing and a general understanding that "pirating isn't a big deal, but it's good to buy" (which is quite an improvement compared to before, trust me). Games now sells in the millionS, while a game was considered a success with 50 000 sales, and a revolution with 100 000 (of course, costs also inscreased, from the two-men teams in the days ^^).

What has changed, is the amount of money thrown into what is now called the "video game industry" (which was known as the "video game world/community" before, quite telling in its own right), making it a much more "serious" situation. In other words, there is now lots of bucks to get, so the big sharks are using everyting in their arsenal to grab their part.
Their first weapon being the DRM (which never work), their second being PR (read : lies), and their third lobbying for laws.

And among their biggest, dearest, most outrageous lies, is the one where they claim their loss due to piracy by simply multiplying the price of the game by the number of pirated copies. Which is, of course, laughable : it's not because someone got a game for free, that he would have bought it if he couldn't have pirated it.

The main threat from piracy, is to push video game publisher to switch entirely to console gaming.

The fear that you will be left unable to play ETW after steam is long gone, however, is one I would not hold. To believe that no one, nowhere, would not attempt to crack the steam encoding is a pretty bold statement. There's always work-arounds.
Of course. All the Steam games have been cracked, be sure of it. Half-Life 2 was even available cracked BEFORE being available legitimaly ^^

[Monk]

I call BS. That's what the industry is whining, but it's blatant lies. Piracy has ALWAYS been rampant, and it has not changed in the last years. If anything, it has considerably lessened compared to the pioneering years, when the people with a computer exchanged truckloads of floppy disks with plenty of games in them, and nobody though much about "pirating".

Nowadays, there is lots of laws, sueing and a general understanding that "pirating isn't a big deal, but it's good to buy" (which is quite an improvement compared to before, trust me). Games now sells in the millionS, while a game was considered a success with 50 000 sales, and a revolution with 100 000 (of course, costs also inscreased, from the two-men teams in the days ^^).

What has changed, is the amount of money thrown into what is now called the "video game industry" (which was known as the "video game world/community" before, quite telling in its own right), making it a much more "serious" situation. In other words, there is now lots of bucks to get, so the big sharks are using everyting in their arsenal to grab their part.
Their first weapon being the DRM (which never work), their second being PR (read : lies), and their third lobbying for laws.

And among their biggest, dearest, most outrageous lies, is the one where they claim their loss due to piracy by simply multiplying the price of the game by the number of pirated copies. Which is, of course, laughable : it's not because someone got a game for free, that he would have bought it if he couldn't have pirated it.

The main threat from piracy, is to push video game publisher to switch entirely to console gaming.


I'm not sure i understand your point, are you suggesting that developers and publishers lose no money, or if they do very little, because of piracy? I find that hard to believe since in some countries you can buy top dollar pirated games from a street vendor for literally pennies on the dollar. The true impact of piracy is not simply people pirating a game they will buy in the future, its people stealing something they never truly in their heart intended to purchase.

Copywrite laws change depending on the country in which you live, so I really can't see that as a valid point. While laws may be pretty strict here in the US, they are pretty lax elsewhere. The world's governments have taken all sorts of different stances on piracy so developers trying to sue and get their money back doesn't always work.. especially if they attempt to sue a site that doesn't reside in the US prosecuting based on US law.

Actually you're right in a sense. Pirating has changed, but it has by no means slown down. Where before people were out in the open about it, wantonly exchanging floppy disks at swap parties, they have now moved it underground. There are literally millions of :daisy: tracking billions of illegal downloads in today's online world, and movies, music, tv shows and games are all pirated daily. Anything and everything is at risk for piracy now. If you compare the online scene with what it was ten years ago, there's just no comparison. To discount it's growth is to ignore a real problem.

We're sorta getting off topic here, and that's my fault for using such broad language, if Martok/Nelson wants we can stear this back to ETW and Steam. :yes:

[BananaBob]

uhhh, steam is amazing. Your account can be uploaded on any computer and it has all of the games on it permanently. One install and you can take your games anywhere, just login in and download. Not worrying about CDs getting scratched because after the first install you don't need them for play.

I got steam for Half-Life 2, and get most of my games from them. It is excellent and non-intrusive, I think the people who hate it should try it and realize how awesome it is.

[Akka]

I find that hard to believe since in some countries you can buy top dollar pirated games from a street vendor for literally pennies on the dollar.
And so ?
In all countries you can download the said game for zero dollar. It's even cheaper than pennies paid to a street vendor. What's your point ?

The true impact of piracy is not simply people pirating a game they will buy in the future, its people stealing something they never truly in their heart intended to purchase.
So the true impact is that people who would not have paid for it, will not pay for it ?
Either I missed something in your reasoning, either you make absolutely no sense.

If you compare the online scene with what it was ten years ago, there's just no comparison. To discount it's growth is to ignore a real problem.
No, it's to take into account that, while piracy has incredibly increased in raw numbers, sales also have incredibly increased in raw numbers.
I don't think the proportion of piracy has really increased. Heck, I'm even pretty sure it has actually proportionnaly DEcreased, simply because there is now a LOT of "casual gamers" who buy all their games, while there was simply no "casual" people in the computer world twenty years ago - we were all somehow nerds/passionnates/technicians and the like. And non-casual people tends to "know the ropes", and as such have a much higher tendency to know how to get their games for free - and as such, much higher proportion to GET them for free.

[Monk]

And so ?
In all countries you can download the said game for zero dollar. It's even cheaper than pennies paid to a street vendor. What's your point ?

It served as an example of how developers are being, in some cases, completely cut out of the picture. It's happening on a bigger scale than you're willing to admit, and that is one example of it.


So the true impact is that people who would not have paid for it, will not pay for it ?
Either I missed something in your reasoning, either you make absolutely no sense.

Bob wants to buy a game, Bob decides from what he reads online the game sounds bad, but he decides to get it anyway. He doesn't buy it so he pirates it. Goods are acquired without the exchange of anything at all, under any other method the definition is stealing. You can go ones tep further anda ssume that Bob will continue to pirate games now that he's done it already.

If he were the only one in the world to take this attitude then there would be no harm, but he's not. I know people here in the states who don't buy a single game. All they do is pirate things. They don't care about supporting a developer, they just want the game.


No, it's to take into account that, while piracy has incredibly increased in raw numbers, sales also have incredibly increased in raw numbers.
I don't think the proportion of piracy has really increased. Heck, I'm even pretty sure it has actually proportionnaly DEcreased, simply because there is now a LOT of "casual gamers" who buy all their games, while there was simply no "casual" people in the computer world twenty years ago - we were all somehow nerds/passionnates/technicians and the like. And non-casual people tends to "know the ropes", and as such have a much higher tendency to know how to get their games for free - and as such, much higher proportion to GET them for free.

You'd be surprised with how little "know-how" is required to actually pirate a game. It's not like it's a rubix cube and only a select few know where to go and what to do to get what they want. Google can find you pretty much anything, and a stumbling search with terms that don't completely apply would get you to a site that will let you do a lot.

I've read a few articles in the past year (and one in 07 that was predicting it) that state PC game sales are actually slowing. I can't sit here and tell you piracy is cause number one concretely, but its my opinion that it has a big part in it.

Of course, if this is truly how this conversation intends to go we'll have to agree to disagree about Piracy's effects on the market (which is aiding in going further and further OT). Neither of us seems closer to convincing the other. :beam:

[Martok]

We're sorta getting off topic here, and that's my fault for using such broad language, if Martok/Nelson wants we can stear this back to ETW and Steam. :yes:
If we could direct the the conversation back towards Empire, I'd appreciate it. :bow: That, or I can move it to either the Arena or Hard/Software Forum.

[Akka]

It served as an example of how developers are being, in some cases, completely cut out of the picture. It's happening on a bigger scale than you're willing to admit, and that is one example of it.
I'm perfectly willing to admit it's on a large scale.
I'm unwilling to admit it's on a proportionnally largeR scale than before.

Bob wants to buy a game, Bob decides from what he reads online the game sounds bad, but he decides to get it anyway. He doesn't buy it so he pirates it. Goods are acquired without the exchange of anything at all, under any other method the definition is stealing. You can go ones tep further anda ssume that Bob will continue to pirate games now that he's done it already.
You're mixing the ethical point of view ("is copying a theft ?") with the practical one ("did the publisher lost a sale ?").
The first point is for another thread. The second is clear : in your example, Bob wouldn't have bought the game anyway. So there is no loss for the publisher. You can think "it's bad, it's stealing", but it's not a sale lost anyway.
But you can be sure that the guys in the industry will count it among the pirated games, and say "we lost fifty bucks here !". Which is an outright lie.

You can only "lose a sale" if it was about being made in the first place. You can't lose a sale from someone who would have not bought the game if he couldn't pirate it.

Now you can be quite pissed off to see someone playing your game without having paid for it, but that's another matter.

You'd be surprised with how little "know-how" is required to actually pirate a game. It's not like it's a rubix cube and only a select few know where to go and what to do to get what they want. Google can find you pretty much anything, and a stumbling search with terms that don't completely apply would get you to a site that will let you do a lot.
I perfectly know how easy it is to get a pirated game.
But I can also tell you how many casual users won't touch it, easy as it may be, because it's still feel like some technical/illegal/nerd stuff.

I've read a few articles in the past year (and one in 07 that was predicting it) that state PC game sales are actually slowing. I can't sit here and tell you piracy is cause number one concretely, but its my opinion that it has a big part in it.
Actually, I did point in my first message that it was the only real danger of piracy : driving publisher from PC to console. That's my main worry.
Of course, that's not the only thing. Console games are harder to pirate, but also have only ONE hardware configuration, which make developping games infinitely more streamlined. They also have a much more easily-pleased public, with much more basic requirements.

And as there is close to no piracy, you can also see that funnily, prices for the exact same games are 20 to 30 bucks higher, while market logics would tend to make the prices LOWER, right ?
(perhaps a hint that piracy isn't only killing business, but also acting as a safeguard against ripping consumers off ?)

[Monk]

You make some good points, Akka, but I think we need to respect Martok's wishes and stop dragging this thread OT.

We've gotten away off point. :shame:

[Martok]

I'll admit to some curiosity as to how online play works, especially as regards Steam's matchmaking abilities. Can anyone shed any light on this?

[Praxil]

I'll admit to some curiosity as to how online play works, especially as regards Steam's matchmaking abilities. Can anyone shed any light on this?

Ahmm...

I don't think that there are that many PC games out there using "matchmaking" to find the "right" opponents for you. Anyway, Valves own games have their in built server searching options, quite poor like in any other games. As far as it goes for server browsers The All-Seeing Eye was something unique, now Qtracker does the job fairly.

[Polemists]

Much like spore. Many of us without internet, or a solid internect connection ( I live in Saudi Arabia, try getting a solid connection not at work, I dare you.) will do what we did with spore

[No discussion of game cracks please. -- Martok]

It's not pirating, but if I pay 60$ for a game, I'm not going to be forced online to activate it. Several games in past have required such, as usual in 3 hours after release, someone figures a way around it. I'm not going to download it but nor am I playing the I'm paying 60$ to only install it 10 times game.

[edyzmedieval]

I love Steam. My Steam account has around 15 games, but to be honest im not too happy that we have to go on Steam to play ETW.

[Polemists]

Steering,

Obviously this could go on and on about piracy versus non priacy. However back to Empire, which is the point of this conversation.


I don't like steam, mainly because it pops up and checks things and updates itself without notifying me, and others have had a similar problem. I don't care if I start steam and it checks and then i can uninstall the steam program, however I don't want to have to keep the steam program on my pc. I don't care if I don't get multiplayer I just dont want steam to stay on my pc.

[SpencerH]

Steering,

Obviously this could go on and on about piracy versus non priacy. However back to Empire, which is the point of this conversation.


I don't like steam, mainly because it pops up and checks things and updates itself without notifying me, and others have had a similar problem. I don't care if I start steam and it checks and then i can uninstall the steam program, however I don't want to have to keep the steam program on my pc. I don't care if I don't get multiplayer I just dont want steam to stay on my pc.

You must be able to turn steam on and off from the system tray?

[Polemists]

I can however it still at times will pop up for no reason to do a update. It's highly annoying. :thumbsdown:

[pevergreen]

Steering,

Obviously this could go on and on about piracy versus non priacy. However back to Empire, which is the point of this conversation.


I don't like steam, mainly because it pops up and checks things and updates itself without notifying me, and others have had a similar problem. I don't care if I start steam and it checks and then i can uninstall the steam program, however I don't want to have to keep the steam program on my pc. I don't care if I don't get multiplayer I just dont want steam to stay on my pc.

It sounds as though you can do just that. Steam will authenticate, afterwhich you can play single player.

There will be a way to play it. Never fear.

[Sheogorath]

I was never a big fan of steam. Mostly because I was first exposed to it back in the 'MUST BE ONLINE TO PLAY YOUR GAMES, EVEN IN SINGLEPLAYER' days. And I didn't do my research before I bought Half Life 2, so I didn't know it required online activation to play, back in the day when we were on 56k, and my gaming computer wasn't on the internet at all.
And the forced updates, over 56k, sometimes meant that if I wasn't careful I ended up waiting for a week while the download went on ._.

Fortunatly we have DSL now, so its all better.

[DisruptorX]

I was never a big fan of steam. Mostly because I was first exposed to it back in the 'MUST BE ONLINE TO PLAY YOUR GAMES, EVEN IN SINGLEPLAYER' days. And I didn't do my research before I bought Half Life 2, so I didn't know it required online activation to play, back in the day when we were on 56k, and my gaming computer wasn't on the internet at all.
And the forced updates, over 56k, sometimes meant that if I wasn't careful I ended up waiting for a week while the download went on ._.

Fortunatly we have DSL now, so its all better.

HL 2 always required activation, but its always had offline mode. I first beat it only playing it when my net connection was down.

[katar]

i`m going to have think a while about this one and look deeper into Steam to see what it`s like from people who use it a lot.

on the plus side i am heartily glad that securom has been rejected as a choice for the game... it was always far too invasive a program for my liking.

[SpencerH]

I can however it still at times will pop up for no reason to do a update. It's highly annoying. :thumbsdown:


Thats not a good sign since it means that steam is always running once installed ie it continues to run despite removal from the taskbar.

[CBR]

That is odd. I have been using Steam with Red Orchestra and I only run it when I need to play. I have never seen an update popup.


CBR

[AussieGiant]

Question:

If I buy the actual physical game and install it, do I need to install the Steam Client to have it register?

I do not like third party software running on my machine (in the back ground) and I keep the number of "Services" down to an abolsute bare minimum as a matter of choice. This ensures a nice clean thin OS and therefore I'm a happy camper.

[Martok]

Question:

If I buy the actual physical game and install it, do I need to install the Steam Client to have it register?
Yes. Steam will need to be installed, regardless of whether you get the boxed copy or the download version.



I do not like third party software running on my machine (in the back ground) and I keep the number of "Services" down to an abolsute bare minimum as a matter of choice. This ensures a nice clean thin OS and therefore I'm a happy camper.
While I can understand where you're coming from, I'll admit that personally I'm not overly bothered by it. I already use Stardock's Impulse -- a program somewhat similar to Steam -- for my copy of Galactic Civilizations 2, and have yet to encounter any major problems with it. So long as Steam remains similarly non-intrusive and doesn't have a deleterious effect on my computer's performance, it'll be a heck of a lot better than ETW including SecuROM or other nasty DRM. :yes:

[AussieGiant]

Thanks for the response Martok.

I've also got GCII and the same set up. If that is all it is then fine, that is going to be acceptable.

[Celtic_Punk]

If it requires steam, im never buying this game. :daisy: steam. Its like the view some people have about securom, its absolute rubbish. It will completely destroy totalwar, and bring in total idiots into the franchise. The annoying 12 yearold kids who play CS will branch of into TW. Then where will we be? we have a nice community as is. *nods* Steam brutally destroy's games it touches.

EDIT: Martok, i have steam, it intrusive. you feel like your playing a STEAM game and not the developers game. You are required to connect to steam inorder to play your game and that is absolutely ridiculous. I bought halflife, id like to play halflife, not steam halflife. Steam is like an even more insufferable version of "House" - without the classic cracks and stabs at people. just brutal insufferablility.

[Martok]

If it requires steam, im never buying this game. :daisy: steam. Its like the view some people have about securom, its absolute rubbish. It will completely destroy totalwar, and bring in total idiots into the franchise. The annoying 12 yearold kids who play CS will branch of into TW. Then where will we be? we have a nice community as is. *nods* Steam brutally destroy's games it touches.
While I sympathize with where you're coming from, I also have to be honest when I say that I believe you're being overly pessimistic in your assessment....if for no other reason than that I believe that ship already sailed four years ago.

With the release of Rome, we saw a large influx of younger, more casual players, and a similar influx when Medieval 2 came out. While some of these newcomers did admittedly have a "l33t/noobz" mentality, most of them either eventually left or -- wonder of wonders! -- adjusted and integrated themselves with the rest of the community here. Regardless of Steam's potential impact, I'm quite confident that the same thing will happen again when ETW is released.

The Org has a long history of attracting more thoughtful, mature participants (and I'm not referring to one's chronological age). Those who do not yet possess either of these qualities usually end up at either the official forums or TWC....or more likely, never come here at all.* It will very likely be the same with Empire.


*That's not to say that the other two sites don't also have thoughtful & mature members -- because they do -- but both places do seem to have a much higher percentage of folks who clearly still have some growing up to do (regardless of how old/young they actually are).



EDIT: Martok, i have steam, it intrusive. you feel like your playing a STEAM game and not the developers game. You are required to connect to steam inorder to play your game and that is absolutely ridiculous. I bought halflife, id like to play halflife, not steam halflife. Steam is like an even more insufferable version of "House" - without the classic cracks and stabs at people. just brutal insufferablility.
Have you had any experience with the setup Empire is going to be using (where if you're playing singleplayer, you only need to fire up Steam once to register the game and don't need to run it again), or something similar? That's what I'm mostly concerned about, since I'll almost certainly never bother with MP.

[Sir Beane]

If it requires steam, im never buying this game. steam. Its like the view some people have about securom, its absolute rubbish. It will completely destroy totalwar, and bring in total idiots into the franchise. The annoying 12 yearold kids who play CS will branch of into TW. Then where will we be? we have a nice community as is. *nods* Steam brutally destroy's games it touches.

I don't think that the average 12 year old CS 'l33t' FPS fans will see much appeal in a Total War game to be honest. In general combat in Counter Strike is fast, loud and needs twitchy reflexes to be good.

Combat in a Total War game is much more slowly paced, strategic, and doesn't provide the instant thrill that ADHD kids look for in a game. Even if the 'l33t' gamers make it into mulitplayer I doubt they will stick around after they keep getting thrashed by Org members. For twitch gamers Total War just requires too much effort for its payoff. The kids who do make the effort and adapt to using strategy are welcome, at least by me.

Personally I think the more people familiar with the franchise the better, so long as CA don't dumb the game down. A bigger playerbase means more money for CA, and it means a larger pool of modding talent for us.

To be totally honest though I mostly only play Singleplayer so I will probably never encounter any of the idiot players anyway.

[Martok]

Well said, Sir Beane. That was actually the point I was trying to make, but you worded it better than I did. :bow:

Of all the concerns regarding Empire using Steam, I think its potential impact on the Org community is the one I'm least worried about. ~:)

[Celtic_Punk]

Hmmm perhaps.... I speak from experience from games like Operation Flashpoint, which is the thinking man's shooter, very realistic and very tactful, 80% of the players are over 30, or are veterans of some conflict in someplace in the world(mostly South Eastern Europe...) then you get some tard kids who jump on the server, get in your tank and go John Rambo into the enemy base and butcher your ambush.

Your post enlightened me a bit, But the matter still remains... If the steam is intrusive, and if i need to keep steam up to play online, I'm not going to be a happy camper.

Hopefully we wont get the poor batch with this new game.. There will definitely be a surge for a time, like any new game, and hopefully as time passes they'll adjust or take a hike.

As for other concerns, more processes, ESPECIALLY ONE LIKE STEAM! plus Xfire, plus ETW? = recipe for core melt down lol

Steam burns...

[Dreadking]

I don't want to sound like an idiot, but what is Steam feature? and what is it supposed to do?

[Intrepid Sidekick]

Hi Dreadking

For more information go to the Steam website here:

General stuff and an idea of what the app looks like

http://store.steampowered.com/about/ (https://store.steampowered.com/)

and here

For more frequently asked/answered questions and known issues

https://support.steampowered.com/

As an immediate response. You do not have to have steam connected to the internet while playing the game in single player mode. You can chose to play offline. A one time connection to the Steam server for authentication is all that is required to play the game.

[Dreadking]

Thank You Intrepid. I've never heard of this feature before, just wanted to know what all the commotion was about, so thanks!

[HopAlongBunny]

Steam doesn't sound too bad.

I am worried about stuff that jumps up from time to time to "call home"; I don't want a program to do anything unless I tell it to_apparently not an issue (Yay!) I am concerned about portability but that also sounds like it is not an issue.

On the thread derailment, I completely agree with Akka. My first exposure to a TW game came thanks to a person who never bought a game in her life; handed me a disc and a piece of paper and said, "I think you'll like this"; it was MTW (full version)_ I installed, played it for a cpl hours and bought the game the next day. People who game w/o paying will always find a way to do so; people who buy their games will do so whether they need to or not. The absolute numbers may change but I doubt the ratio differs much over time.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

As an immediate response. You do not have to have steam connected to the internet while playing the game in single player mode. You can chose to play offline. A one time connection to the Steam server for authentication is all that is required to play the game.

Are you sure?


During authentication will it insist to download the latest version of steam?
Will I need to authenticate if I do a reformat? For many this being a regular occurance and sadly the nature of windows.
Will I need to download patches via steam and can I keep a backup copy for future use rather than re-downoad every time?
Will the makers of steam never change their terms of use so that this game authentication requirements don't change whether now or in the future?
Will I need to authenticate everytime I re-install the game?
Some clarification regarding mods would also be very welcome.

[Mikhal]

Thats not a good sign since it means that steam is always running once installed ie it continues to run despite removal from the taskbar.

No, I know that I can turn off the steam on my PC and have no processes whatsoever running in the background. It will only start when I start it or launch a Steam game and it will only connect to download updates when started by the user. (I'm a tweaker though so you may have to change some settings in the steam options to get this kind of behaviour though, else it will start on computer startup).

[Polemists]

else it will start on computer startup

Again, i know it's minor but can't they make things easier not harder? Surely they know most of us don't want to have to dig into god knows what preferences and edit this and change that.

I'm not big into multiplayer. Yet this is a necessary evil of MP these days. No one wants to actually handle multiplayer anymore (pay for/manage servers) so they all outsource it Gamespy, Steam, take your pick.

I don't like the idea of having to authenticate the game online, I don't know why I can't just punch in the xxx-xxx-xxx-xxx code like I used to on most games, and they can just say okay.

What was so wrong with that code?

I mean I don't see steam as a improvement over the code. If your argument is, well we can't stop piracy but we have to make a effort, weather you make a effort everyone hates and stops 1.5 % of hackers or a effort no one cares about and stops 1.0% of hackers, is it really a difference?

I mean it's a mute point, cause it is steam.

It's just, I mean i love GC III, why can't more people do the stardock thing.

[JR-]

Are you sure?


During authentication will it insist to download the latest version of steam?
Will I need to authenticate if I do a reformat? For many this being a regular occurance and sadly the nature of windows.
Will I need to download patches via steam and can I keep a backup copy for future use rather than re-downoad every time?
Will the makers of steam never change their terms of use so that this game authentication requirements don't change whether now or in the future?
Will I need to authenticate everytime I re-install the game?
Some clarification regarding mods would also be very welcome.

all good questions.

[AussieGiant]

Yes very good questions Nebuchadnezzar.

I'd like to see a response to those.

And just to be clear.

There is a ONE TIME ONLY requirement to register the copy with Steam? Not a one time per single player session?

That means; I install the game from DVD or CD; install the "Steam" client as part of that install process; then register the game; then shut "Steam" down and play happily ever after wards; unless I see a patch of course in which case; I start "Steam" up again; download the patch; then shut "Steam" down again?

Correcto?

[Martok]

It's just, I mean i love GC III, why can't more people do the stardock thing.
What?? Stardock's making Galactic Civilizations 3 already? What do you know? Tell me! TELL ME!!

[Martok shakes Polemists for information]


Yeah, I know that was a typo on your part, and that we won't be seeing GalCiv 3 anytime soon. I had to do it anyway, though. ~;p






Anyway, back to topic:


And just to be clear.

There is a ONE TIME ONLY requirement to register the copy with Steam? Not a one time per single player session?

That means; I install the game from DVD or CD; install the "Steam" client as part of that install process; then register the game; then shut "Steam" down and play happily ever after wards; unless I see a patch of course in which case; I start "Steam" up again; download the patch; then shut "Steam" down again?

Correcto?
That's my understanding of how it'll work, yes. From what CA has said, we'll only need Steam for the initial install/authentication and for patches/updates (if you play only singleplayer, that is). Otherwise we shouldn't need to bother with it.

[Upxl]

Ha steam,
I remember the old days when me and my cs clan blasted those noobish clans away.
We had computers so didn’t needed girls…
Thank god that all changed J.

But seriously, I remember when steam came out and have to honestly say that I have always been a happy steam user.
And if I would ever feel the urge off playing online again Steam will be the first program I’ll install.

[LadyAnn]

I bet you still need girls, whether you have them or not :)

Annie

[Zenicetus]

Originally Posted by Nebuchadnezzar View Post
Are you sure?

* During authentication will it insist to download the latest version of steam?
* Will I need to authenticate if I do a reformat? For many this being a regular occurance and sadly the nature of windows.
* Will I need to download patches via steam and can I keep a backup copy for future use rather than re-downoad every time?
* Will the makers of steam never change their terms of use so that this game authentication requirements don't change whether now or in the future?
* Will I need to authenticate everytime I re-install the game?
* Some clarification regarding mods would also be very welcome.


all good questions.

Agreed, but in all likelihood we'll never get a straight answer to #4 ("Will the makers of steam never change their terms of use so that this game authentication requirements don't change whether now or in the future?"). It's related to these questions:


What happens if the company goes out of business, or is absorbed by a larger company that's no longer interested in paying to keep the authorization servers online?

If I keep an old computer around to run games I consider classics and might want to re-visit, and it's running a OS version several versions old.... will you guarantee that your current version of DRM, Steam, whatever will still authenticate the game on that older platform? What are you promising, in essence, for future support?


I've never seen a game rep give a straight answer to these sorts of questions, whenever it comes up in other forums. "Don't worry, we'll take care of you" is not a straight answer, but it's the closest I've seen to any kind of commitment for future support, no matter what happens to the company.

This goes to the heart of whether we're renting or purchasing games. It's much more relevant for a strategy title like TW, which gamers might want to re-visit in the future, than something with limited replay value like a FPS game. If I'm only going to be renting my games with no guarantee of future installation whenever I want, then I want a different price structure.

[Arcana]

Meh, I prefer Impulse to Steam, mostly because it's non-invasive and doesn't require itself to be running in order to play the game.

That's Steam's main failing for me - it has to run in the background. Whereas my GalCiv runs quite happily just having been authenticated. I don't run Impulse unless I want to update (offtopic: FINALLY Stardock gave us 2.0 of Twilight. I thought I was going to die of old age before it came, but I digress), which, to be fair, I rarely do. Ideally I'd have seen ETW on Impulse than Steam.

I do see the uses of both systems. I can see why companies use them. But I think it's unfair on those who've grabbed a boxed copy to have to authenticate online. If you buy it to be downloaded over steam, fair enough! But for those of us who've got a disc, why should we be limited? I hate that companies treat good honest users like criminals. I'm convinced that there's something in law that prohibits the crap game companies (particularly EA) are pulling these days.

I am, however a bit irked by the argument of "It's not as bad as SecuROM". While this may be true, "not as bad as" does not mean it is "good". Brussels Sprouts are not as bad as running your tongue over razor blade ice cream, but I still don't want them near my tongue, thanks very much.

[AussieGiant]

But that was the nature of my question Arcana.

Based on the description, Martok has agreed there will be no need to run it in the background while playing Single Player. Of course you maybe speaking about Multiplayer.

[Arcana]

I hope that's the case. In general, for steam games I've previously encountered you have to set Steam to an 'offline mode' which it automatically tries to get out of every time you fire it up...irksome.

[hellenes]

It served as an example of how developers are being, in some cases, completely cut out of the picture. It's happening on a bigger scale than you're willing to admit, and that is one example of it.



Bob wants to buy a game, Bob decides from what he reads online the game sounds bad, but he decides to get it anyway. He doesn't buy it so he pirates it. Goods are acquired without the exchange of anything at all, under any other method the definition is stealing. You can go ones tep further anda ssume that Bob will continue to pirate games now that he's done it already.

If he were the only one in the world to take this attitude then there would be no harm, but he's not. I know people here in the states who don't buy a single game. All they do is pirate things. They don't care about supporting a developer, they just want the game.



You'd be surprised with how little "know-how" is required to actually pirate a game. It's not like it's a rubix cube and only a select few know where to go and what to do to get what they want. Google can find you pretty much anything, and a stumbling search with terms that don't completely apply would get you to a site that will let you do a lot.

I've read a few articles in the past year (and one in 07 that was predicting it) that state PC game sales are actually slowing. I can't sit here and tell you piracy is cause number one concretely, but its my opinion that it has a big part in it.

Of course, if this is truly how this conversation intends to go we'll have to agree to disagree about Piracy's effects on the market (which is aiding in going further and further OT). Neither of us seems closer to convincing the other. :beam:

Copyright infrigment has as much to do with theft as car speeding has to do with rape....

PS as for the doom and gloom brainwash campaign:
http://www.shacknews.com/tag.x/PCGA

[Martok]

All right folks. Either play nice, or don't play at all. :whip:


Let's stick to the original subject. If you wish to conduct a more general discussion of game piracy and copy protection, please do so in the Arena or the Backroom. :focus:

[Mori Gabriel Syme]

That Empire will use Steam is certianly unfortunate news. I was already considering not purchasing Empire because the special edition includes changes to the actual game. Steam is a deal-breaker, though. :no: I realize this is just my opinion, but my dollars are the only vote I have against business models I consider unreasonable.

[Megas Methuselah]

Well, that's your loss. I'd gladly support steam in opposition to SecuRom anyday.

[hoom]

Worth quoting a CA dev over at the TW centre (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4100446#post4100446).


Hi there

I'm sorry if I seem confused but why is this rumour about limited installs continuing? It's entirely false.

We have explicitly stated on our own TotalWar.com website that there will be no limit to legitimate installations of "Empire: Total War". An authenticated purchase of the game is all that is required.

When you install the game on to your PC there will be a one time authentication on "Steam". After that you can play with Steam set to "offline", if you dont want to get updates or patches of "Empire: Total War" or the "Steam" application.

You will be able to purchase a disk version of the game from most good game retailers - which will require the same one time Steam authentication - if you dont want to download the game from Steam.

If you get rid of your old PC after installing the game you can re-install the game, along with Steam, on a new machine and you will only need to authenticate the game, on Steam, to start playing it again. You can install it on ten PC's if you like but you will only be able to play it on one machine at a time.

Multiplayer online gameplay will require you to go online using Steam as Steam is the matchmaking service and the means of communication Empire uses between players.

Hopefully this is clear enough?

And again (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4100686#post4100686)


We will not be limiting the number of uses of the game.
We will not be limiting the number of times you install and uninstall it - as long as multiple users dont try to use the same copy of the game.

[Megas Methuselah]

Thx a lot, Hoom. I'm sure the scales will fall from the eyes of many people! :beam:

[Mori Gabriel Syme]

Well, that's your loss.
On balance, not really.

[Megas Methuselah]

Whatevah. It won't stop me from buying it. And enjoying it, too. :tongue2:

[cromwell]

I don't think steam, will cause any more problems than usual for a new release. Don't forget HL/HL2/CS.S are probably the most modded games of all time, and Steam has worked for all those mod teams. It actually helps modders get out the word.

I have never found steam to be that invasive, I turn it off, and it only loads if I click on the icon for steam to load, so it's not running all the time. When playing MP online, yes I have it on in the background.

Think of all the confusion for the MP rooms, when a patch is release now, everyone spends hrs telling people go get the patch so we can play. Now it should auto load the patch before you go online. That reduces Customer support queries and such. Plus I still cannot believe how bad some gamers are at updating their system and patching software.

Sorry, just to much QQ for my taste.

Cromwell

[Mailman653]

I had steam in order to run Red Orechestra, I had no complaints over it. When I played the game; steam would run in the background but when I was finished I just shut it down and thats it. Plus as the post above states, new patches automatically download when you sign in so you don't have to go visit a bunch of websites to d/l a patch.

[Zenicetus]

Worth quoting a CA dev over at the TW centre (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4100446#post4100446).
And again (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?p=4100686#post4100686)


We will not be limiting the number of uses of the game.
We will not be limiting the number of times you install and uninstall it - as long as multiple users dont try to use the same copy of the game.


No, the CA rep is still ducking one of the important issues here. Someone who buys the game can play it as long as the Steam activation servers are online. One time activation, fine. That works for today, but what about down the road?

What are the customer's options for installing the game on another machine in the future, if Steam and CA are no longer around to authorize the game? Are they willing to unlock the game if they go bankrupt or are swallowed by another company?

Strategy games are one of those categories where players sometimes like to install a game that's several years old for nostalgia's sake, or because it was just a great game. If Steam and CA are no longer around to authorize the game, then what are we supposed to do.... find a pirate copy? Hope it's gone into open source? What?

As usual, the devs are silent on this issue.

[SpencerH]

No, the CA rep is still ducking one of the important issues here. Someone who buys the game can play it as long as the Steam activation servers are online. One time activation, fine. That works for today, but what about down the road?

What are the customer's options for installing the game on another machine in the future, if Steam and CA are no longer around to authorize the game? Are they willing to unlock the game if they go bankrupt or are swallowed by another company?

Strategy games are one of those categories where players sometimes like to install a game that's several years old for nostalgia's sake, or because it was just a great game. If Steam and CA are no longer around to authorize the game, then what are we supposed to do.... find a pirate copy? Hope it's gone into open source? What?

As usual, the devs are silent on this issue.

You have a point.

OTOH, I'd like to play MTW or STW (since I dislike the more recent TW efforts) but AFAIK I cant without screwing with the video drivers and other components of the reasonably modern PC that I have here in NJ. While it's true that Steam may go out of business, it's more likely that changes to the PC hardware and OS will render ETW unplayable before that happens.

[macduro]

During authentication will it insist to download the latest version of steam?

Yes , it does automatically when steam starts

Will I need to authenticate if I do a reformat? For many this being a regular occurance and sadly the nature of windows.

You don't need to autenticate the games again if you reformat , but you will need loguin on steam
You have no limits to download the game , you can install and reinstall it all the times that you want.

Will I need to download patches via steam and can I keep a backup copy for future use rather than re-downoad every time?

Patches are downloaded atumatically , and yes you can do backups , but it use to be more usefull just to copy and paste the game directory.

Will the makers of steam never change their terms of use so that this game authentication requirements don't change whether now or in the future?

NO , they will never change the terms.

Will I need to authenticate everytime I re-install the game?

No , but you will need loguin onto steam



I see that not so many people here knows how steam works.

To play a Steam game first of all you will need to have a Steam account . The games that runs under steam are ALWAYS linked to the Steam account , games can't be moved to another account or sell to another user .
If you buy ETW on retail you will receive thegame with a keycode , you will to open the steam program , loguin onto your account and put the ETW keycode onto your steam account . You can only do it one time , and once done you will not be able to change the game to another steam account.
And be aware , all the games that runs under steam needs at least connect to internet one time in order to run . You can install the game from the CD but you need to autenthificate it on the steam net .

If you go to visit family or friends you can play the games that are associated to your steam account easily , you only need to download steam again in another computer , loguin in your account and download the games . No matter where you are , you can activate your steam client everiwere with your games alwais ready to donwload an play.

Actually Steam , Nvidia and ATI gifts some games to the owners from a graphic card from one of those companies . If you don't have a steam account you can use those links to start ...

http://www.steampowered.com/nvidia/

http://steampowered.com/ati_offer1a/

[Zenicetus]

You have a point.

OTOH, I'd like to play MTW or STW (since I dislike the more recent TW efforts) but AFAIK I cant without screwing with the video drivers and other components of the reasonably modern PC that I have here in NJ. While it's true that Steam may go out of business, it's more likely that changes to the PC hardware and OS will render ETW unplayable before that happens.

Sure, that's a valid point too. There's a window of time beyond which you can't reasonably expect to play older computer games, unless you keep an old PC around just for that purpose. But I think many of us would still like the same window of time we've had with previous games, for playing on older platforms that can still run these things. Invasive DRM shouldn't be the limiting factor there.

I have a bunch of games in my closet that I've re-installed over the years. Heck, I might want to revisit Rome one of these days, and re-install RTW for a little Phalanx-busting action. And I can still do that, as long as I don't jump too many generations of hardware and OS into the future. I don't think that's too much to ask for, when we're paying $60 for a game.

If the game companies want to rent us games as a limited-time service, pay-as-you-go for as long as the company lasts, at an appropriate price for a monthly rental, that would be one thing. And I think many of us might go for that. But this isn't what they're doing. They're charging a full commodity price for the game, as if we could use it forever (as long as we have the hardware to run it). But there's a time bomb attached to the game, that may nor not may go off at some future time when the company goes out of business.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Will the makers of steam never change their terms of use so that this game authentication requirements don't change whether now or in the future?

NO , they will never change the terms.

Forgive me for being skeptical here but you know this how?

[macduro]

Forgive me for being skeptical here but you know this how?

I'm sure . This is because steam is only a distribution tool , the terms of use for the game only concern to Sega , the owner . They are the only one than can decide about game athentification , adding DRM or other tools or redirecting you to another loguin place as games for windows live ...

[macduro]

If the game companies want to rent us games as a limited-time service, pay-as-you-go for as long as the company lasts, at an appropriate price for a monthly rental, that would be one thing. And I think many of us might go for that. But this isn't what they're doing. They're charging a full commodity price for the game, as if we could use it forever (as long as we have the hardware to run it). But there's a time bomb attached to the game, that may nor not may go off at some future time when the company goes out of business.


Valve has said in some ocasions that if eventually they go out of bussines the will release a steam edition that allows you to continue playing your games offline , without loguin in to the valve servers .
At this moment there are some cracking tools that allows you to do this things , so if Steam eventually closes his doors you can be sure that you will not lost your games.

Steam is a great plataform , it has some incovenients for the customers but offers great things .
The most important thing to now about steam is that it's a plataform for games from valve , valve rent his space to another companies for sell his games online .
The support for the nonvalve games that are on steam is responsability of this other companies ,and sometimes the use to release bad ports to steam , with versions taht are bugged , not fully updated or with very expensive price if we compare it with the retail version .

[nameless]

They're charging a full commodity price for the game, as if we could use it forever (as long as we have the hardware to run it). But there's a time bomb attached to the game, that may nor not may go off at some future time when the company goes out of business.

There's also the chances of your computer blowing up or someone breaking into your house and breaking the computer, and the internet collapsing with a nuclear war breaking out.

SEGA/CA don't have a crystal ball that tells them when or if they will go under.

And besides, as macduro noted, how hard is it for someone to bring out a patch/program to deactivate the STEAM part?

[andrewt]

I've read a few articles in the past year (and one in 07 that was predicting it) that state PC game sales are actually slowing. I can't sit here and tell you piracy is cause number one concretely, but its my opinion that it has a big part in it.




Not going to go in to the piracy thing, but if you're talking about NPD sales statistics, they're grossly flawed. If you buy Empire as a download from Steam instead of buying a retail copy of the game, to these guys, it's like you never bought the game at all.

Those monthly subscriptions I pay for World of Warcraft? Nope, they're not PC game revenue at all. At least, until the first quarter of this year, when they decided that there was over $1B in MMO gaming subscriptions they were not tracking that must've been hidden under a rock.

A lot of these sales research firms are employed by retailes. Since a lot of PC revenue has cut out the middleman, retailers, they pretend these don't exist. Much of PC game revenues nowadays are subscriptions, advertisements, micro transactions and downloads.

I can't wait to see these guys call Empire a bust because the "retail" sales have evaporated.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I'm sure . This is because steam is only a distribution tool , the terms of use for the game only concern to Sega , the owner . They are the only one than can decide about game athentification , adding DRM or other tools or redirecting you to another loguin place as games for windows live ...


LOL I don't think so! I'm sure SEGA's EULA will include something about users also accepting Valves T&C

and guess what? No surprises to see Vaves TC contains a clause where they can change their agreement whenever it wishes.

Perhaps you forgot Kingdoms and Securom. Sega washed their hands on those having problems and redirected them to securom for help. SEGA may be the publisher/developer but I doubt they take much responsibility for the third party inclusions.

[macduro]

LOL I don't think so! I'm sure SEGA's EULA will include something about users also accepting Valves T&C

and guess what? No surprises to see Vaves TC contains a clause where they can change their agreement whenever it wishes.

Perhaps you forgot Kingdoms and Securom. Sega washed their hands on those having problems and redirected them to securom for help. SEGA may be the publisher/developer but I doubt they take much responsibility for the third party inclusions.

Well , if you don't believe me you can go to the steam forums and ask about it . Valve can change the EULA for the Steam tool , but not the EULA for games that are not from Valve .
I told you again , Valve just rent a space in to the Steam to other companies for sell his games , and are those other companies who decide over his games , about the support , upgrades or about how the people can acces the game .

From the Steam EULA :

6. THIRD PARTY CONTENT

"Third Party Content" means software and other content provided by third parties, other than Valve, that is designed to work in conjunction with the Steam Software (e.g. mods of Valve game products). In regard to all Third Party Content, Valve acts merely as an intermediary service provider. Valve does not screen Third Party Content available on Steam or through other sources. Valve does not assume any responsibility or liability for Third Party Content.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Renting space? LOL STEAM is not only a distribution tool but also SEGA's authentication tool.

I am not referring to STEAM changing SEGA's EULA. Clearly this isn't possible. My point is whats stopping STEAM changing authentication requirements sometime in the future.

err.. Clause 6 means what? A standard line wherever a partnership of sought exists and they wish to wash their hands from any responsibility of each other. For sure SEGA will also include one in theirs.

[macduro]

I am not referring to STEAM changing SEGA's EULA. Clearly this isn't possible. My point is whats stopping STEAM changing authentication requirements sometime in the future.




Well as far I know Steam never has changed the authentification requeriments for any game or for the main tool , but they can do it of course , it says clearly at the EULA , and if says clearly that you have 30 days to agree or to ask for an account cancelation with the possibility of receive a nonsteam downloadable version of any game that you had on your account .
This is not 100% sure of course , specially as you noted above , when we talk about third party games because they wash their hands leaving all responsability for the developer .

It seems that you are a lot worried about securerom and targes problems , Steam and Valve are totally against securerom and targes sistem . Gabe Newell , Valve's owner , said some weeks ago that securerom is a stupid tool and that he is traiying to stop developers to include it in the games that they release on steam . Gabe said that the actual authentification sistem is the best way to protect the games , specially when you are using a tool that doesn't need any cd to install or to run the game . If you don't have Cd you don't need to include programs as securerom that is specially based on the cd/dvd authentification.

YOu can have your doubts , but if you want to paly Empires you will have to use Steam.
Steam is not perfect , but is better than other sistems .