Question about Armies of Makedonia

[Foytaz]

I'm just about beggining new campaign as Makedonia. I always like them, you know Alexander and stuff but don't know much about their military after Megas died.
What was standard makedonian army in 270-200 BCE, what kind of unit it was made of?.
Have they changed their military in similar ways as Romans have changed. Have they applied any reforms like Seleucids or Ptolemaics did???

[Maion Maroneios]

You can do some reseach about your first question. As for the rest, the answers are NO and NO :-P

Maion

[Foytaz]

You can do some reseach about your first question. As for the rest, the answers are NO and NO :-P

Maion

bahh, I don't have all the time in the world that's why I asked for advice. I did some researches but still I want to know more asap.

[Lovejoy]

If you read to unit-descriptions you usually get some clues about the historic use of that unit.

About your first question... I'm not sure, I'm not a historian. Everything I know about this age is what EB has learned me.

But from what I have learned: Core of phalax ofc. The use of Thureophorois had become popular. Very few elite units. Some thraceian units. Some cav units. What you expect really :P

[Strategos Alexandros]

They do have one reform, they get Hysteroi Pezhetairoi. As for army composition, my Makedonian armies are normally 30-50% Phalanx, 20-50% light infantry, 10-20% cavalry and 20-50% allied and Makedone medium/heavy infantry. There isn't really a set force for Makedon, it depends on where it's been recruited.

[Maion Maroneios]

Well, while the Makedonians do indeed get a reform, as they historically did, it wasn't even close to the Roman reforms. That's why the answer is a deffinate NO.

Maion

[Pontius Pilate]

the makedonians still used alot of sarissa phalanxes. they didn't change much after Alexander. they did have at least one reform though, because in EB there is a unit called reformed phalanx, they have purple cloaks.

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

I wouldn't sweat the details. If you're army has heavy cavalry and a phalanx, that's good enough. All the rest is what ever you need to win.

[Foytaz]

From I've learned so far about Makedonia military system, my armies will be up to 50% infantry(70% light\medium and 30% heavy\elite), 30% skirmishers(70% light and 30% heavy\elite), 20% cavalry(50% medium and 50% heavy\elite)

[Maion Maroneios]

That's good enough I suppose.

Maion

[Strategos Alexandros]

Well, while the Makedonians do indeed get a reform, as they historically did, it wasn't even close to the Roman reforms. That's why the answer is a deffinate NO.

Maion

Their reform is, however like the Seleukid reform, which the OP also mentioned.

[Maion Maroneios]

Their reform is, however like the Seleukid reform, which the OP also mentioned.
Well, Makedonia's reforms where not even close to the Seleukid/Ptolemaic ones. The latter even developed sort of "legionary corps", which the Makedonians never did.

Maion

[Strategos Alexandros]

I meant their EB reforms, where they only get one unit, but yeah I agree with you about real life, although the Makedonians did begin using the Thorakitai later on so it would be logical to suggest that if they had not been conquered they might have developed the Thorakitai in the same way as the Seleukids.

[Maion Maroneios]

Ah, I see. As for the Thorakitai, I think they never did (thus the EB team didn't include them in their roster) use them, but of course someone with better knowledge could verify that.

Maion

[satalexton]

i think they MIGHT have...if the romans didn't wipe them out so quickly.... D=

oh the horrid horrid romans...

[Maion Maroneios]

I agree with you. They are filthy, fish smelling, over proud of their pathetic ''republic'' dogs. Pah! :-P

Maion

[teh1337tim]

actaully they did field the thorikita in considerable numbers after their phalanx was bested again and again in rough grounds... they had to chose between the hysteroi pezhetarioi or the thorikita due to model limits etc...same reason arche seleukid got the ubber tank thorikita but no hetaroi pezheteroi

[Maion Maroneios]

I think you have confused things a bit. AS or Ptolies never developed a unit like the Hysteroi, which are purely a Makedonian design for countering Roman opressors. Now Thorakitai weren't used in great numbers or at all by the Makedonians, at least that's what I've heard from at least one EB member. Also, you could rationalize the fact that it wouldn't be easy to field great numbers of Thorakitai, as the Makedonian Wars would probably have bleeded their coffers dry and - let's face it - training and arming someone as a Thorakites was expensive:yes:

Maion

[Dutchhoplite]

Did the macedonians really field a mail clad phalanx??

I know Seleucid phalangists are mentioned wearing mail...

In 1 Maccabees 6 a large part of the Seleucid army is wearing mail:


The number of his forces was a hundred thousand foot soldiers, twenty thousand horsemen, and thirty-two elephants accustomed to war. They came through Idumea and encamped against Beth-Zur, and for many days they fought and built engines of war; but the Jews sallied out and burned these with fire, and fought manfully. Then Judas marched away from the citadel and encamped at Beth-Zechariah, opposite the camp of the king.

Early in the morning the king rose and took his army by a forced march along the road to Beth-Zechariah, and his troops made ready for battle and sounded their trumpets. They showed the elephants the juice of grapes and mulberries, to arouse them for battle. And they distributed the beasts among the phalanxes; with each elephant they stationed a thousand men armed with coats of mail, and with brass helmets on their heads; and five hundred picked horsemen were assigned to each beast.


Are these pike or thorakitai?? If they are thorakitai it would mean there are (about) 320000 thousand of them...

Yes, numbers in ancient sources :sweatdrop:

[Ibrahim]

as for mail, that's relative; mail in hebrew it may actually refer to any armor suit (depends on the langauge). Does anyone here know the hebrew or aramaic words for diff. armor?, so he can compare to the origional script?

[Phalanx300]

In the unofficial EB Manual you can find some things about Macedon:juggle2:. (its in the unofficial modding area)

[O'ETAIPOS]

Armies of Makedonia were formed Were composed from 3 distinct parts. Not all of them were used in all types of operations.

I.1. Guard units. They were core of the army, composed of the nobles and possibly sometimes promoted men. They were used extensively in all types of operations, as they were available quickly and able to do much fighting on their own.
Guard was composed from few unit types:

Infantry
-Hypaspistai - rare, close bodyguard of a king. Richest and ablest of available men. Unit barely big enough to warrant use in game. Never mentioned in battle during hellenistic period, but used as military police, to arrest traitors and to perform special missins (like burning royal chancellery papers before enemy (Romans) were able to take them. (EB Hypaspistai)

-Agema - maybe "Agema of Macedonians" or "Agema of the Peltasts", guard unit, formed from older, rich Macedonians. They were from 35-45 years old, and if able, to 50. Most probably their manpower came from those who were too old to serve as Peltastai. Its difficult to pinpoint their tactical use, as different ancient authors may in fact mix-up the names, but Plutarch claims that they were 3000 strong at Pydna, and fought there to last man. At Kynoskefalai only Peltastai are mentioned, but 2000 strong unit stayed in Pella to protect capital. (EB Argyraspidai)

-Peltastai - guard unit composed of young, rich Macedonians (not older than 35). They performed bulk of difficult operations, stormed cities, held most dangerous place in the battle line, fought in irregular warfare if needed - did all of those operations performed earlier by Hypaspistai. They were all year available for Mak kings, able to descend to Peloponese in the middle of winter. Biggest recorded number is 3000 men. In major battles equipped, most probably, as pikemen, in other operations not known, but probably lighter gear (EB Peltastai Makedonikoi and Argyraspidai)

Cavalry
Not much is known, but roman sources mention "sacred alae" - some elite horse units or units - we don't even know if there were one or more of those units. Probably composed of Hetairoi. (EB Hetairoi and General Bodyguard)

I.2. Regular levy

Infantry
-name is not known, usually referred as "phalanx", one of inscriptions suggest they were called Pezoi (footmen). All Macedonian citizens were liable to serve, in theory from 15 till 50 years old. In practice from every family only "most able" member was recruited, and full levy was used only for ultra important battles, like Kynoskefalai or Pydna. In other actions smaller numbers were used, maybe alternatively 1/4 or 3/4 of the levy. Those men were pikemen. Numbers: either 3000 or 10000 (usually, data mainly from Philip V reign). It is possible they were recruited from 4 main regions of Makedonia and either 1 or 3 regions were mobilised. All of the citizens took part in the training in gymnasia - from 15 till 20 years of age, or maybe even longer, till 30. It is important to remember that not all people living in Makedonia were citizens liable to serve in army, so numbers of possible recruits were not very big. On the other hand it's possible that amount of soldiers was limited by financial state of kingdom as it is possible that weapons were produced and kept in royal or city armouries and distributed to the levy in times of war. (EB Phalangitai Deuteroi and Pezhetairoi)

Cavalry
Almost nothing is known, but name Hetairoi appear in inscriptions. Cav was not really useful in operations in south Greece and numbers were not that great overall (maybe as nobles started to serve in guard foot units there were problems with manpower?) Highest numbers: 2-3000, at Pydna 4000. Some of the cavalrymen were possibly mercenaries. (EB Hetairoi, Lonchophoroi, Hetairoi Aspidophoroi, Prodromoi)

II. Allies and subject people.

Both inf and cav. Various Greeks, Thracians, Paionians, Illyrians. This group includes different light armed and heavy troops using native arms. Numbers heavily fluctuating.

III. Mercenaries

Both inf and cav. Used mainly in garrison duty, in battles only in small numbers. Estimated at 10000-15000 in the peak of Antigonos Gonatas's garrison fever.

Division between group II and III is not clear as some of the Allies took money to serve.



Big, royal armies always included guards, some levy, allies and mercenaries. In war smaller armies were dispatched as needed. Those often consisted of the guards and mercenaries/allies/subjects, as they were always on duty or easy to gather. Besides those armies were well trained so they were moving fast. Proportions differed, there was no special code, as in roman army - armies were assembled for the tasks.

If royal armies were assembled, composition could go from half guard, half levy plus some subjects, mercenaries and some cav (if small levy was gathered) to great armies of 3000 guard, 12000-16000 levy and double this numbers in allies, subjects and mercenaries, plus 1000-4000 cav.

Macedonian levy units were rarely used as garrison troops, but sometimes it happened (for example around 500 men are mentioned in Karia in the eve of Kynoskefalai, they also stationed in Korinth.

Some of the information presented here may be questioned (like state production and storage of arms) as interpretation of sources vary among scholars.

[Foytaz]

Armies of Makedonia were formed Were composed from 3 distinct parts. Not all of them were used in all types of operations.

I.1. Guard units. They were core of the army, composed of the nobles and possibly sometimes promoted men. They were used extensively in all types of operations, as they were available quickly and able to do much fighting on their own.
Guard was composed from few unit types:

Infantry
-Hypaspistai - rare, close bodyguard of a king. Richest and ablest of available men. Unit barely big enough to warrant use in game. Never mentioned in battle during hellenistic period, but used as military police, to arrest traitors and to perform special missins (like burning royal chancellery papers before enemy (Romans) were able to take them. (EB Hypaspistai)

-Agema - maybe "Agema of Macedonians" or "Agema of the Peltasts", guard unit, formed from older, rich Macedonians. They were from 35-45 years old, and if able, to 50. Most probably their manpower came from those who were too old to serve as Peltastai. Its difficult to pinpoint their tactical use, as different ancient authors may in fact mix-up the names, but Plutarch claims that they were 3000 strong at Pydna, and fought there to last man. At Kynoskefalai only Peltastai are mentioned, but 2000 strong unit stayed in Pella to protect capital. (EB Argyraspidai)

-Peltastai - guard unit composed of young, rich Macedonians (not older than 35). They performed bulk of difficult operations, stormed cities, held most dangerous place in the battle line, fought in irregular warfare if needed - did all of those operations performed earlier by Hypaspistai. They were all year available for Mak kings, able to descend to Peloponese in the middle of winter. Biggest recorded number is 3000 men. In major battles equipped, most probably, as pikemen, in other operations not known, but probably lighter gear (EB Peltastai Makedonikoi and Argyraspidai)

Cavalry
Not much is known, but roman sources mention "sacred alae" - some elite horse units or units - we don't even know if there were one or more of those units. Probably composed of Hetairoi. (EB Hetairoi and General Bodyguard)

I.2. Regular levy

Infantry
-name is not known, usually referred as "phalanx", one of inscriptions suggest they were called Pezoi (footmen). All Macedonian citizens were liable to serve, in theory from 15 till 50 years old. In practice from every family only "most able" member was recruited, and full levy was used only for ultra important battles, like Kynoskefalai or Pydna. In other actions smaller numbers were used, maybe alternatively 1/4 or 3/4 of the levy. Those men were pikemen. Numbers: either 3000 or 10000 (usually, data mainly from Philip V reign). It is possible they were recruited from 4 main regions of Makedonia and either 1 or 3 regions were mobilised. All of the citizens took part in the training in gymnasia - from 15 till 20 years of age, or maybe even longer, till 30. It is important to remember that not all people living in Makedonia were citizens liable to serve in army, so numbers of possible recruits were not very big. On the other hand it's possible that amount of soldiers was limited by financial state of kingdom as it is possible that weapons were produced and kept in royal or city armouries and distributed to the levy in times of war. (EB Phalangitai Deuteroi and Pezhetairoi)

Cavalry
Almost nothing is known, but name Hetairoi appear in inscriptions. Cav was not really useful in operations in south Greece and numbers were not that great overall (maybe as nobles started to serve in guard foot units there were problems with manpower?) Highest numbers: 2-3000, at Pydna 4000. Some of the cavalrymen were possibly mercenaries. (EB Hetairoi, Lonchophoroi, Hetairoi Aspidophoroi, Prodromoi)

II. Allies and subject people.

Both inf and cav. Various Greeks, Thracians, Paionians, Illyrians. This group includes different light armed and heavy troops using native arms. Numbers heavily fluctuating.

III. Mercenaries

Both inf and cav. Used mainly in garrison duty, in battles only in small numbers. Estimated at 10000-15000 in the peak of Antigonos Gonatas's garrison fever.

Division between group II and III is not clear as some of the Allies took money to serve.



Big, royal armies always included guards, some levy, allies and mercenaries. In war smaller armies were dispatched as needed. Those often consisted of the guards and mercenaries/allies/subjects, as they were always on duty or easy to gather. Besides those armies were well trained so they were moving fast. Proportions differed, there was no special code, as in roman army - armies were assembled for the tasks.

If royal armies were assembled, composition could go from half guard, half levy plus some subjects, mercenaries and some cav (if small levy was gathered) to great armies of 3000 guard, 12000-16000 levy and double this numbers in allies, subjects and mercenaries, plus 1000-4000 cav.

Macedonian levy units were rarely used as garrison troops, but sometimes it happened (for example around 500 men are mentioned in Karia in the eve of Kynoskefalai, they also stationed in Korinth.

Some of the information presented here may be questioned (like state production and storage of arms) as interpretation of sources vary among scholars.

Thx m8 this is what I've asked for. During my researches I found more\less similar numbers as you have but as said sources are vary.
Quite interesting thing is the use of Hypaspistai units in Makedonian military system. Thoug they were elite of the elite they're rarely used in battles. Same 'fate' belongs to Praetorian units in Roman Imperial Army - political police assigments instead of fighting in battles.