Greeks/Phoenicians/Romans in America? [Archive]

Hax

11-02-2008, 21:41

Since we were getting way off topic in MAA's AAR, I decided to open a topic here.

I also read an article in a magazine -- I think it was National Geographic or something like that, which really freaked me out -- that some people claim to have found pottery evidence that Carthaginians were trading with South Americans at one point.

Apparently Carthage is the new Atlantis.

The Phoenicians/Carthage traded up the Atlantic coast as far as Britain but never really set up any true colonies out there. They also traded down the African coast, but it is almost impossible for them to have made it to the Americas. Not impossible to do so, just extrememly unlikely.

Yeah, I know they traded with the Brits, though most of the trade would likely have gone through middle-men first. But yes, I know the Carthies had set foot on the Brittish Isles, but the notion of Carthaginian colonies there just struck me as so absurd. Maybe it isn´t all that absurd, but it was presented as undisputed fact.

And yes, it is extremely unlikely they went to America. But heck, they probably went south of the equator, so who knows. We can´t be sure.

But anyway, when did this become about Carthaginian colonies around the globe? I want a new chapter!

Well, the Greeks even went as far as ''Esperia'', or America as they called it. Greek coins have been found there, just do a quick net search and you'll come across it. That's why I see no reason the Phoenicians wouldn't be able to do so, as advanced in trade as they where.

Maion

I know they were in Sri Lanka and probably in SE Asia as well, but America? The coins could have been lost by a numismatist, mind you. :inquisitive:

Maybe, but then again it is up to each of us to make conclusions. Anyway, we are getting off-topic so I guess we should get back to the point :-P

Maion

I think the Semurians were the first civilisation to travel to the Americas.

Discuss!

Lovejoy

11-02-2008, 22:19

Was the ships of that age even able to travel that far? Without ever stopping for food/water?

desert

11-02-2008, 22:28

Here, these guys traveled to the moon. Clearly the Phonecians could have traveled to the Americas, which is about a hundred times closer.

http://oddlots.digitalspace.net/guests/lucian_true_history.html

Ibrahim

11-02-2008, 22:38

I find dumbass' post quite fitting for him:clown:

but yes, there are scools of thought that show that ancient civilizations reached the America's. of all the peoples, the phoenicians are the best bet, but there is no evidence of them reaching the America's, like the Vikings did: look up lance aux meadows. Though I do fing it possible, in light of the surprisingly sophisticated maritime technology (IIRC the greeks and phoenicians did have sailing ships, not just galleys-an important consideration for lovejoy).

there is also mention of an irish guy named St. Brendan the navigator having reached America, with good circumstantial evidence (i.e his writings), and their accuracy (though conventional sources say its an allegory). this line also lacks the all-important physical evidence as well. I know the guy lived before lief ericksson, but what time I dunno. 6th centry or thereabouts.

EDIT: here. Its not the source I used, but it should give you an idea:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brendan

keravnos

11-02-2008, 23:20

Ancient Greeks (under Roman domination) reached even up to China, as there are accounts of Imperial Roma sending over emissaries to the Chinese (Later Han) via sea. Indonesia too. A sailor of Massalia, under what some historians believe Megas' Alexandros command, sailed around Spain to England (Kassiterides Nesoi) "Tin islands" and even up to Norway (Thoule). Those are the limits of them that we know of. There are some suggestions that Ptolemaioi, after founding 3-4 colonies in present day Somalia, that they sent some ships down Africa, even up to present day S. Africa, but that is unconfirmed. It is MUCH MORE possible though than an actuall ship of Hellenistic times sailing to America.

Ancient Greeks reaching America? I honestly don't think so. Phoenicians maybe, even if that is VERY doubtful but Ancient Greeks NO.

Marcus Ulpius

11-02-2008, 23:28

keravnos

11-02-2008, 23:32

Exactly.

Tellos Athenaios

11-03-2008, 00:06

We should take into account that ancient sailors nearly exclusively navigated along the coasts. Britain, Somalia, Scandinavia, China and even Indonesia all of them can be reached by coastal navigation. Ancient ships were not very useful for open sea navigation and it is highly unlikely that those ships could survive a Trans-Atlantic voyage.

Then again, the very same rings true for the ships that did make it to the Americas... It's not until the famous contest for 'who cracks the Longitude measuring problem' was concluded (somewhere 18th century, IIRC) that any reliable means of day-navigating without coastlines became even possible/well-understood. And just another puzzler: the craft of navigating by the stars is about as old (if not older) as the Minoan civilisation -- got to have clear skies though.

Pontius Pilate

11-03-2008, 00:21

There is a theory that the Phoenicians or Carthagians did in fact reach the Americas. In fact there was a history channel show that mentioned this topic. It noted that Hanno the Great(or Navigator?) may have indeed reached the Americas sailing from North Africa. There is also a theory that the Egyptians landed in Australia, since some heiroglyphs have been found sketched into rocks. Also, the Chinese were aware of a great empire in the west, they sent emissaries to Rome during Marcus Aureilus' reign but the emissaries were turned back before they could reach Rome by the Parthians.

Maion Maroneios

11-03-2008, 00:29

Well, Greek Key designs (maiandros) have also been found in America. That's why it might be able for them to have reached there. Also, we know they knew of the continent's existance, as there are quite a few guys who mention "the land after the 'Herakleies Steiles' or Gibraltar" or "Esperia". Also, I've seen a documentary on Youtube of someone who went from America to southern Africa with a wooden boat, proving it would be able for advanced European naval civilisations to sail to America. Also, tabaco and other ingredients have been found in small quantites within mummyfied Egyptians, things than didn't even exist in Europe. Now doesn't that ring a bell to any of you?

Maion

Pontius Pilate

11-03-2008, 00:42

ludwag

11-03-2008, 01:07

Why should we discuss this here. We are not archaeologicans, or experts. I think someone should find some proof. I can imagine, but I cannot know anything.

Centurio Nixalsverdrus

11-03-2008, 01:10

Well, I think it's the same thing as why it's not an exploit or a cheat to teleport your diplomat (that means he's actually hiring a boat from a local coast dweller) over the channel to negotiate with the Casse, but teleporting an army would indeed be one (because 30,000 men and 30,000 men serving them could not all hire a boat from a local coast dweller).

Or it's the same as a broad river can be a defendable border against an enemy incursion, but never a defendable border against a Sweboz chieftain crossing the river in his canoe.

Of course it is possible to reach the Americas with ancient technology. All you have to do is sail along the coast of Africa, load food and water in the Senegal area, and then sail two or three weeks southwest. Just close your eyes, and if you're lucky, you wake up from the joyous cheers of the inhabitants of Recife.

But of course it's something completely different to mount an expedition thence (wow, a very old fashioned word). Would the Sophet of Kart-Hadast be in the mood to spend great wealth on mounting a fleet of several ships, just to go to a continent that you have no knowledge of, and that you actually believe cannot exist due to the undeniable fact that the world ends west of the Pillars of Herakles, devouring everything foolish enough to test it in a giant waterfall, leading into darkness and oblivion? Hell no!

I've read of an account of an Inuit being thrown on the coast of Denmark in about EB's timeframe. I think he was a big sensation at a wealthy chieftain's court. But that doesn't mean there were Inuit expeditions discovering the magnificient forests of Magna Germania.

Ignopotens

11-03-2008, 05:11

To suggest small vessels are incapable of long open ocean voyages is silly.

The Polynesians made it across the Pacific with more primitive ship technology than the Phoenicians had.

Apgad

11-03-2008, 06:56

There are some suggestions that Ptolemaioi, after founding 3-4 colonies in present day Somalia, that they sent some ships down Africa, even up to present day S. Africa, but that is unconfirmed.

Herodotus talks about the ancient Egyptians sending out an expedition to circumnavigate Africa. IIRC he says it took several years, and they stopped to plant crops each winter before continuing after the harvest. He doubted the stories though, because he didn't believe that the sun could appear in the north, which is what the Egyptians claimed they saw. Of course that is what they would have seen in the southern hemisphere!

Apgad

11-03-2008, 06:58

There is also a theory that the Egyptians landed in Australia, since some heiroglyphs have been found sketched into rocks.

That's a very bad theory though, as the heiroglyphs were seen being carved by "an elderly Yugoslav bloke" in the 1980s...

oudysseos

11-03-2008, 09:29

One of my favourite books from years ago is The Ra Expeditions by Thor Heyerdahl. He built a boat out of reeds, following ancient Egyptian models (not even wood!!) and sailed from Morocco to Barbados. He also built the Tigris, another reed boat, and sailed from the Persian Gulf to Djibouti. Although I am as quick as any to point out the limits of experimental archaeology, reconstruction, and re-enactment, Thor certainly did demonstrate that very old boats were absolutely capable of long voyages. And Tim Severin is almost an Irish national hero for The Brendan Voyages, in which he actually sailed a leather (still not wood!!) currach to Newfoundland.

So yes, it could have been done. Not the same as it was done.

Ibn-Khaldun

11-03-2008, 15:40

I think it's certain that none of the great nations/empires in Europe didn't do a planned expedition to find the lands beyond the ocean in the west. They had other more important things to think about.
But small merchant vessels that were thrown too much west because of the storms could have easily reached America. And IF they got back then their stories would be too unbelievable for anyone to take it serious.

NIKOMAHOS

11-03-2008, 16:53

Herodotus in deed speaks for Carthaginian sailors that made the round of Africa in three years under pharao's Neco finance. Also the Massilian sailor ,Keravnos mentioned did the trip to tin islands(UK) and Thule( I think this is Iceland Keravnos and not Norway) probably under Alexander's finance because he knew Aristotel's calculations for a sphere earth with 40,000 stadia perimeter( Eratosthenes later found that it is 216.000 stadia near the today knowledge for 40,000km).
About landing in Americas i think that Carthaginians probably landed there because they were great sailors and explorers without the greek fear for the end of the world in Herakleies steles and the gods punishment for reaching esperes but with a great will for new markets and profit...
We should all agree that with the ships of that age this was very difficult. The navigation in a closed sea like mediterranean took place only for one hundred days per year in two small periods(May and September i think). A trireme was easily capesized with a five bofor wind so Atlantic could be really dangerus and probably sent many ships to the bottom and some cast aways were landed in America...

keravnos

11-03-2008, 18:02

Hindsight is 20/20 isn't it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pytheas
(for that guy who went to Thule- all the possibilites were suggested repeatedly by each generation of writers: Iceland, Shetland, the Faroe Islands, Norway and later Greenland. A manuscript variant of a name in Pliny has abetted the Iceland theory: Nerigon instead of Berrice, which sounds like Norway. If one sails west from Norway one encounters Iceland. Burton himself espoused this theory.(according to Wiki)

We know now where America lies. Many live there others have been there. I don't think though that saying that America lies where it did 2300 years ago would make an impact. It is sad, come to think about it. All those things the ancients could do but didn't because they didn't think they were possible. Railroads, harnessing and using electricity, and yes even traveling to America.

I think that in some aspects we are the same. Here we are still making grand promises of going to other planets of our solar system and going to Mars using the same ol' Mega Rockets which are very expensive and only take about 5% of the combined weight of the Rocket in Space. For me it is a monumental waste. There is another way, but few dare to even consider it.

It has many names but the one most agreed upon is the...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_lift

Personally, I think it makes sense, if only we can create the materials which will enable us to build it.

Why?

With a space elevator, materials might be sent into orbit at a fraction of the current cost. As of 2000, conventional rocket designs cost about on eleven thousand U.S. dollars per kilogram for transfer to low earth or geostationary orbit. Current proposals envision payload prices starting as low as $220 per kilogram.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_elevator_economics

Like I said, hindsight is 20/20. Foresight is what we should try to have.

Ignopotens

11-03-2008, 21:53

OT, but aren't the Japanese recently investing heavily in the space elevator?

Celtic_Punk

11-03-2008, 22:09

i can believe the carthiginians were trading a bit with the south americans. They were the greatest sea faring people. Much more savvy than the Athenians even! But trips like that would have been (and still are) immensely expensive. I believe maybe a handful of trips were made to southamerica, if any at all. They probably didn't know it was a new continent. They may have assumed it was a part of Africa. But I am willing to believe the Americas were discovered more than a few hundred years ago.

Cbvani

11-03-2008, 22:16

I for one think they may have made it. However, I don't think it mattered if they did. No significant amount of trade happened until the Columbian Exchange.
Lets face it, the Romans could have used the potato. Its a heck of a lot more efficient at feeding people than wheat. And you can put stuff on a baked one to make it very tasty.

Dumbass

11-03-2008, 23:40

Heh I know what I said may have sounded stupid, but I think Semurian architecture was discovered in ruins on the coast. Possibly some distant trading colonies. This was from a book that explored the Semurian civilisation, but this could be speculation.

MarcusAureliusAntoninus

11-04-2008, 00:55

Gleemonex

11-04-2008, 04:48

[...] Although I am as quick as any to point out the limits of experimental archaeology, reconstruction, and re-enactment, Thor certainly did demonstrate that very old boats were absolutely capable of long voyages. [...]

Good post, oudysseos. But I want to comment briefly on the above.

I don't understand why so many people seem to get after re-enactors, or other re-creation endeavours. Taken for what they are, they can be the source of quick, tangible insight.

For example, as best I can gather (though I'm no historian) the question of spear grip in the hoplite phalanx was solved, or at least confirmed simply by asking re-enactors. If you hold under-hand, you nut the guy behind you. So over-hand it is. [1]

Not every question needs a PhD and years of peer review to be answered.

On another note, some of you may find this interesting:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

-Glee

[1] If this turns out to be apocryphal, I have full confidence that other such examples can be found. I'm too busy/lazy to research right now

||Lz3||

11-04-2008, 04:55

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

-Glee

hey! I was about to point him out!!

I've also read about an ancient chineese fleet that traveled to the west, I'm not sure but Ithink I remembered something about a possible chineese boat (which... I can't seem able to translate it's name to english hehe)
_________________________________________________________________________________________________
about the romans... I also read on that book that coins very similiar to the roman ones were found on yucatan's pelinsula

Mulceber

11-04-2008, 05:45

I don't think it is a question of could they have, but rather would they have even given it a try. If you were in an open boat and someone suggested going randomly out into the open ocean and see if there is anything way out there, you would mutany. Leaving the sight of the coast isn't just stupid, it is quite scary. No experienced sailor of the time would risk it unless he was sure of what he would find.

Well, actually, from what I hear from my latin prof, we're starting to see evidence now that ancient ships left the coastline a lot more than we used to think - enough ship-wrecks are turning up in the open ocean to suggest that when they had to hurry, they'd go out into the Mediterranean quite readily. But yeah, you're right, they wouldn't be willing to just sail off into the atlantic - that'd be a recipe for mutiny.

I tend to think that while it could have been done, it probably wasn't. As somebody else here said, there are a lot of things the ancients were capable of, but just didn't do. A lot of it has to do with slave labor, and the ways in which that retards peoples incentive to create new technology, but that isn't the whole picture. -M

Anastasios Helios

11-04-2008, 08:06

I have read before about the discovery of the carcass of a Roman ship (plus many Mediterranean-style vases (called amphorae I think?) buried under the harbor of Rio de Janerio in Brazil. I forget when exactly this occured but the Spanish and Portugese governments did a cover-up because they feared that the archaeologist who discovered everything was an agent of the Italian government trying to establish an Italian claim to the European discovery of South America. The archaeologist believed that the amphorae were of Moroccan origin and that the Roman ship was probably trading off the coast of Morocco when a wild wind blew it westwards to Brazil...I read about it in "Feats and Wisdom of the Ancients"....do any of you guys know of this book? (It's amazing!)

oudysseos

11-04-2008, 08:51

I agree with Gleemonex and don't take my comment about re-enactors as a negative one- I participated in the Olympias trireme way back when, so that'd be calling the kettle black- but I think it is important to stress that a reconstruction or re-enactment does have limits. Heyerdahl proved that reed boats are capable of ocean crossings, not that there were extensive trade links between the Carthaginians and the Olmecs. Keravnos is right that hindsight is 20/20: Heyerdahl, Severin et al could make their voyages because they knew where they were going, and had radios and life rafts if they got into trouble. They also had the leisure time and money to footle around with their hobbies. Ancient Phoenicians, Greeks, Egyptians, Lemurians etc didn't have those advantages and most of all didn't know that there was a new world to find.
The ultimate proof that there were not trade links (as opposed to accidental non-return crossings) is the absence of new world products in Europe before Colombus. Cotton plants, tomatoes, maize, peppers, potatoes, tobacco- these items and many others transformed European society and economy when they became available in the 16th century.

Gleemonex

11-04-2008, 11:04

I think it is important to stress that a reconstruction or re-enactment does have limits. Heyerdahl proved that reed boats are capable of ocean crossings, not that there were extensive trade links between the Carthaginians and the Olmecs.

I agree 100%. My post was aimed generally; it wasn't meant to target you.

I've seen others make less measured assessments of re-enactment, however. And that's why I stressed that re-enactment should be taken for what it is (in addition to being a fun time) -- a demonstration of what is theoretically possible or feasible, provided that the methods and equipment are historically accurate.

An interesting reflection of this, strangely enough, is in the movie "Apollo 13". Gary Sinise's character is grounded when Apollo 13 launches, but when the return capsule encounters technical problems he re-enacts the conditions in a simulator. At one point, he castigates the engineering crew for providing him with the wrong type of flashlight (http://www.nitpickers.com/movies/comment.cgi?com=8056) (and also refuses to take a break).

-Glee