View Full Version : 13 year old Girl raped and than stoned for "adultary"
Oleander Ardens
11-04-2008, 22:50
Well the story is here (http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/world/international-us-somalia-islamists.html?ref=world). Murderous bigots...
Louis VI the Fat
11-04-2008, 23:03
I was thinking about posting this earlier. I couldn't think of a personal thought that adds anything to the story.
Beyond tragic. Outrageous for so many reasons. :shame:
I saw this also earlier this week. ... I am so disgusted.
:disappointed:
Rhyfelwyr
11-04-2008, 23:09
Is this the same sharia law they are wanting to use for Muslims in Britain?
GeneralHankerchief
11-04-2008, 23:11
At least she's in a better place now.
CountArach
11-04-2008, 23:22
This is utterly disgusting and completely reprehensible...
LittleGrizzly
11-04-2008, 23:42
Completely shocking, the fact that the family went to the militants in charge for some kind of protection/law enforcment and got this as thier reward makes it even worse, there is simply no excuse...
Is this the same sharia law they are wanting to use for Muslims in Britain?
Yes, but obviously they can't work outside the laws of britian, so stoning of raped women wouldn't happen...
seireikhaan
11-04-2008, 23:43
:sick:
PanzerJaeger
11-05-2008, 00:51
Is this the same sharia law they are wanting to use for Muslims in Britain?
Be careful. Mentioning muslims in any other than a completely positive connotation is grounds for a warning, regardless of the latest bit of savage inhumanity committed under the statutes of the religion of peace.
LittleGrizzly
11-05-2008, 01:16
ohh please if anything muslim insults are let slide more than any other, the fact that fragony is still here contributing as usual shows that that is complete rubbish, if there was any kind of special rule against insulting muslims frag would have been gone ages ago, infact if we even punished people for making generalisations about muslims frag would have been gone ages ago.
I think if you want to insult a religion on this forum islam is your best bet, you can push this one alot further than any other, despite the victim mentality you will see from some on this forum in relation to thier own religion...
Alexanderofmacedon
11-05-2008, 02:03
A shame.
Law of the land I guess.
EDIT: I just noticed this which is sort of ironic. Look next to the topic of all of our posts and the thread topic. They're all smiley faces next to such a tragic phrase!
Strike For The South
11-05-2008, 02:09
horrible :sad:
LeftEyeNine
11-05-2008, 03:01
Be careful. Mentioning muslims in any other than a completely positive connotation is grounds for a warning, regardless of the latest bit of savage inhumanity committed under the statutes of the religion of peace.
For the second time with an irrestible expectation of being understood: Islam is the religion of pace. Example:
ELLLEEEEEHÜ EKBEEEER !!!111wahedwahedwahed [runs towards the embassy] *BOOOOOM*
Thus, you all "democracy only for my liking" representatives can get rid of some tragic typo you have joyfully exploited for years that you took absolutely no step to understanding who were totally strangers to you before 9/11.
Holy ****, some girl was raped and stoned to death of her "adultery crime". What have you smoked so hard that you are trying to make something out of this which is only suitable for free-hosted hate fora run by skinny, BDSM addict neurotics or worked-out-enough-to-shrink-his-skull level steroid-freak quasi-Nazi meatheads ?
Would your reaction be still the same if a bunch of Catholics did the same and replied "Father told us to" when asked about it? Would you still be aiming at atheism if the same horrible bizarreness was conducted by some atheists who would say "there's no God up there, we are" afterwards ?
I've been living for 25 years in a country of Muslim majority where you have to hear "ezan" 5 times a day, would hesitate to drink alcohol in the open when it is Ramadan and the prices of livestock rise when Fest of Sacrifice comes by, and I've never seen this being advised or administered to be done should such a stance occur, nor was before me.
In that continent named Africa which was (if not still is) war-waged by democracy-monger West to exploit and dominate for centuries, what is so right with anything else that such an act can be eligible to be your toy to play with screaming "look it's teh religion of mages/faces/traces/genesis" or whatever around ?
How come you can not ask yourself "why do I wear blinders of a horse while I possess the wealth to fly over or dig beneath if I'd wish to" ? Maybe since it is easier to love your guns and point at whom you dislike at first sight?
Yeah, baby, totally intellectual. In a cool way.
Strike For The South
11-05-2008, 03:04
For the second time with an irrestible expectation of being understood: Islam is the religion of pace. Example:
ELLLEEEEEHÜ EKBEEEER !!!111wahedwahedwahed [runs towards the embassy] *BOOOOOM*
Thus, you all "democracy only for my liking" representatives can get rid of some tragic typo you have joyfully exploited for years that you took absolutely no step to understanding who were totally strangers to you before 9/11.
Holy ****, some girl was raped and stoned to death of her "adultery crime". What have you smoked so hard that you are trying to make something out of this which is only suitable for free-hosted hate fora run by skinny, BDSM addict neurotics or worked-out-enough-to-shrink-his-skull level steroid-freak quasi-Nazi meatheads ?
Would your reaction be still the same if a bunch of Catholics did the same and replied "Father told us to" when asked about it? Would you still be aiming at atheism if the same horrible bizarreness was conducted by some atheists who would say "there's no God up there, we are" afterwards ?
I've been living for 25 years in a country of a Muslim majortiy where you have to hear "ezan" 5 times a day, would hesitate to drink in the open when it is Ramadan and the prices of livestock rise when Fest of Sacrifice comes by, and I've never seen this being advised or administered to be done should such a stance occur, nor was before me.
In that continent named Africa which was (if still not is) war-waged by democracy-monger West to exploit and dominate for centuries, what is so right with anything else that such an act can be eligible to be your toy to play with "look it's teh religion of mages/faces/traces/genesis" or whatever ?
How come you can not ask yourself "why do I wear blinders of a horse while I possess the wealth to fly over or dig beneath if I'd wish to" ? Maybe since it is easier to love your guns and point at whom you dislike at first sight?
Yeah, baby, totally intellectual. In a cool way.
This:2thumbsup:
This just screams for intercultural dialogue we can really learn from eachother.
Strike For The South
11-05-2008, 04:14
This just screams for intercultural dialogue we can really learn from eachother.
What these men did is deplorable and has no place in society. LEN is completely right. Blaming an entire religon for these kind of things is very stupid. You fail to look at the politics and poverty which propels people to do this. Does Islam have some house cleaning to do? Yes it does but to villify an entire religon is laughable and to do so rejects many of the other factors which causes these things some of which the West has had a rather large hand in.
Papewaio
11-05-2008, 04:19
At least the crowd tried to intervene.
My assumption is that it was that militia members who raped the girl and the best way to cover it up was to shoot the victim.
I think we should sort at Afghanistan first though...
What these men did is deplorable and has no place in society. LEN is completely right. Blaming an entire religon for these kind of things is very stupid. You fail to look at the politics and poverty which propels people to do this. Does Islam have some house cleaning to do? Yes it does but to villify an entire religon is laughable and to do so rejects many of the other factors which causes these things some of which the West has had a rather large hand in.
No I think it's quite safe to attribute it to the muslim faith, the sexual discrimination just varies, to dismiss the archaic nature of muslim society's, that is really laughable.
Strike For The South
11-05-2008, 04:32
No I think it's quite safe to attribute it to the muslim faith, the sexual discrimination just varies, to dismiss the archaic nature of muslim society's, that is really laughable.
Some muslim societies but not all. Just like some catholics like to touch little boys genitals and some evangelicals want to kill the homos. The reason the west has not been subjected to this is because we are on average better off and more educated. Improvised people always look to the LCD for hope.
Tribesman
11-05-2008, 04:45
At least the crowd tried to intervene.
Yes but they were obviously not muslims .
Also it is obvious the father and daughter were not muslims either because if they were then they would have known what the militia called law , unless of course they wanted to get the daughter stoned to death .
I think it's quite safe to attribute it to the muslim faith
Well thats a surprise isn't it
Koga No Goshi
11-05-2008, 04:48
No I think it's quite safe to attribute it to the muslim faith, the sexual discrimination just varies, to dismiss the archaic nature of muslim society's, that is really laughable.
Dude. The homeland of the Catholic religion used to have laws that whether or not a woman was raped was contingent upon whether she was wearing tight jeans or a revealing skirt...
Must be Muslim lawmakers in Italy. :yes:
The Black Ship
11-05-2008, 05:42
Dude. The homeland of the Catholic religion used to have laws that whether or not a woman was raped was contingent upon whether she was wearing tight jeans or a revealing skirt...
Must be Muslim lawmakers in Italy. :yes:
When was the last stoning in Italy?
Koga No Goshi
11-05-2008, 06:09
When was the last stoning in Italy?
That's not the point. If you want to blame a system of faith for the level of sexism it imparts into society, Christianity has its own problems.
Tribesman
11-05-2008, 06:16
Koga you are going the wrong way about it , if you want to challenge the "its a muslim thing" posts simply ask what exactly is the sharia law on this sort of thing , what sort of provisions are there and how on earth could this incident be sanctioned under those provisions .
When those posters come up with either a complete blank or some obvious fabrication then it demonstrates that they are talking bollox .
Koga No Goshi
11-05-2008, 06:25
Koga you are going the wrong way about it , if you want to challenge the "its a muslim thing" posts simply ask what exactly is the sharia law on this sort of thing , what sort of provisions are there and how on earth could this incident be sanctioned under those provisions .
When those posters come up with either a complete blank or some obvious fabrication then it demonstrates that they are talking bollox .
It hardly needs challenging... I just like pointing out the hypocrisy of it.
Strike For The South
11-05-2008, 07:21
Perhaps but blaming every muslim or the religion itself is a cop out for people who dont want to address the actual issues.
Koga No Goshi
11-05-2008, 07:29
Perhaps but blaming every muslim or the religion itself is a cop out for people who dont want to address the actual issues.
Strike just got a hole in one. :)
Striker Woods.
PanzerJaeger
11-05-2008, 07:46
Perhaps but blaming every muslim or the religion itself is a cop out for people who dont want to address the actual issues.
It is not a cop out; it is a prudent suggestion.
Changing religious dogma to reflect the fact that women, children, gays and other minorities are in fact human beings that cannot simply be slaughtered at will like livestock is far easier than reversing poverty or disenfranchisement. The existence of negative social issues does not excuse the widespread abuse of women and other minorities within the muslim world. These stories are just the symptoms of a system that keeps millions practically enslaved, with no voice and no power. Sure not all muslims are eager to cut heads, but most (who are allowed to have an opinion) support this system of abuse.
In contrast, Left eye brought up the Catholic Church, which also operates in nations of abject poverty and social upheaval. However, despite his desperate attempt to achieve parity by bringing up the sex scandals, the Catholic Church actually acts as a peaceful force as opposed to just claiming to be one. Compare Sunday mass in any church to what's preached in thousands of madrassas around the globe.
*And before someone tries to turn this into a Christianity vs islam debate; I only brought up the Catholic comparison to demonstrate that religions operating in poor regions of the world do not automatically sanction violence. Hinduism could largely take its place as well. I'm sorry to say, but islam has a distinct problem, and it cannot all be blamed on mitigating social issues.
Koga No Goshi
11-05-2008, 07:52
Sure not all muslims are eager to cut heads, but most (who are allowed to have an opinion) support this system of abuse.
On what do you base this? I've known lots of Muslims. What you are talking about is their version of fundamentalist extremists who live in the mountains or in a couple of the really extreme regimes. Have you ever been to Lebanon? Or UAE? Or Bahrain? Egypt maybe? If you go around with a camera trying to see some cool beheadings you'll be pretty disappointed.
Some muslim societies but not all. Just like some catholics like to touch little boys genitals and some evangelicals want to kill the homos. The reason the west has not been subjected to this is because we are on average better off and more educated. Improvised people always look to the LCD for hope.
And yet here we are having honor killings in western society's, makes you wonder, what drives them.
Koga No Goshi
11-05-2008, 08:17
And yet here we are having honor killings in western society's, makes you wonder, what drives them.
Very poor, uneducated cultures where people have very little in terms of material goods or opportunity in life, so instead, things like family honor and social respect become highly valued.
When Europe looked like the Middle East (in terms of widespread poverty and backwards political leadership), it was pouring molten metal into people's bodily cavities to drive the devil out.
You could say that religion is tied into these nasty things, but frequently religion also plays a hefty overtone role of reforming societies when they rise up and shake off these kinds of backwards practices.
Very poor, uneducated cultures where people have very little in terms of material goods or opportunity in life, so instead, things like family honor and social respect become highly valued.
People who were born and raised here. Tribes handed you a much better argument, reduces it all to a flashmob if you chose to consider it to be an incident. I don't think it's an incident.
Koga No Goshi
11-05-2008, 08:43
Your mind is pretty predecided on this one Fragony, it comes up very frequently. If you feel the problem is Islam itself, go out and try to get rid of it. I wish you luck. I will be back here in the practical world.
Those living in the practical world understand that there are differences between cultures, there must be two reality's, one where a 13 year old girl is stoned to death, and disneyland. You have a great time trying to find excuses for it, horrible way to die by the way.
Crazed Rabbit
11-05-2008, 09:18
Disgusting savages.
CR
The al-Shabab Militia is a hardline extremist group ("Jihadists"). They are regarded as a terrorist organistion by the US. They're not really very good examples of Muslims, but very good examples of war criminals.
A shame.
Law of the land I guess.
is it the accepted law of the land, as in accepted by the majority of its people?
if so, that would spark an interesting discussion in itself into whether nations (including their dominant cultures) can be branded as backward and non-civilised...............
HoreTore
11-05-2008, 11:20
Corrupt and ridiculous system of law in a rebelling country?
Who would've thought?
This is barbaric, but unfortunately, it's to be expected in countries with a 10-year long war...
Sarmatian
11-05-2008, 12:09
When was the last stoning in Italy?
When was the last stoning in Turkey? It's a very large and very populous muslim country, so there must have been thousands and thousands in the 20th century...
Tribesman
11-05-2008, 12:11
And yet here we are having honor killings in western society's, makes you wonder, what drives them.
Yeah we have them over here , but I don't think the knacks have converted to Islam its just a tribal/clan thing
Yeah we have them over here , but I don't think the knacks have converted to Islam its just a tribal/clan thing
That is true, so is genital mutilation, both manifestations of the sexual inequality and suspicion towards women in these society's. Nothing to do with the islam, well that's true. Nothing to do with islamic culture, that's a rather tough position to take.
A very sad story. I'm speechless :shame:
Tribesman
11-05-2008, 12:38
Nothing to do with the islam, well that's true. Nothing to do with islamic culture, that's a rather tough position to take.
Actually it is you who has a very tough position to make , if something is nothing to do with Islam then it has nothing to do with Islamic culture .
Actually it is you who has a very tough position to make , if something is nothing to do with Islam then it has nothing to do with Islamic culture .
Goodbye tough, enter impossible :yes:
LittleGrizzly
11-05-2008, 13:14
OH MY GOD!!!!
The exact same people who were defending the german people are now generalising all muslims!!
Frag and PJ i mentioned this several times in the germany topic we had but i was suspiciously ignored!!!
The basic point goes like this...
Germany was an advanced country and the country elected hitler and carried out some of the most hateful racist policys the world has ever seen.....
so you would think frag or pj would be of the view that, theres something about being german or christian that made them so evil, like islam makes muslims evil...
But no!! muslims are evil because of islam but the german people were put in a bad place by other people (treaty of versailles ect.) didn't really now what was going on, weren't that much worse than the allies....
How can you be so obviously hypocritical!!!
1) Either muslims are evil because of islam and germans are evil because they're german or christian...
OR
2) Both are victims of extreme times, bad circumstances and wrongs done on them by others
personally i believe the 2nd statement is true of both, but you two seem to pick and choose between the options depending whether you are talking about muslims or not, can you point out how this isn't sheer bloody hypocriscy ?
I would point out as well that the german state was an advanced rich state (which picks apart your we have bad western muslims point)
Muslims are no better or worse than christians, in extreme times and circumstances both can do great evil, so christianity and muslims are the religion of violence...
and then carrying that statement on people from almost every religion and walk of life have done great evil when in bad circumstances.... so we are all inherently evil! no more or less evil than each other
But if you do want to make generalisations based off a minority, i would say that dutch is a nationality of evil which turns people into raving anti muslims..
The exact same people who were defending the german people are now generalising all muslims!!
Frag and PJ i mentioned this several times in the germany topic we had but i was suspiciously ignored!!!
I am? Just pointing out the sexual inequality in muslim society's, am I making that up and is the situation of women comparable to their situation in the Netherlands? I don't think so. Ignoring that because for your worldview you need cultures to be equal, now that is hypocrite imho. I never use words like 'evil' and never said anything even remotily close to 'all', that is putting words in my mouth. There are problems, you can call pointing that out disrespectful but it isn't respect that gave us the renaissance but a lack of respect, respect is the enemy of progres.
Must have missed your point in German thread, didn't ignore it intentionally I'll have a look.
OH MY GOD!!!!
The exact same people who were defending the german people are now generalising all muslims!!
Frag and PJ i mentioned this several times in the germany topic we had but i was suspiciously ignored!!!
The basic point goes like this...
Germany was an advanced country and the country elected hitler and carried out some of the most hateful racist policys the world has ever seen.....
so you would think frag or pj would be of the view that, theres something about being german or christian that made them so evil, like islam makes muslims evil...
But no!! muslims are evil because of islam but the german people were put in a bad place by other people (treaty of versailles ect.) didn't really now what was going on, weren't that much worse than the allies....
How can you be so obviously hypocritical!!!
1) Either muslims are evil because of islam and germans are evil because they're german or christian...
OR
2) Both are victims of extreme times, bad circumstances and wrongs done on them by others
personally i believe the 2nd statement is true of both, but you two seem to pick and choose between the options depending whether you are talking about muslims or not, can you point out how this isn't sheer bloody hypocriscy ?
I would point out as well that the german state was an advanced rich state (which picks apart your we have bad western muslims point)
Muslims are no better or worse than christians, in extreme times and circumstances both can do great evil, so christianity and muslims are the religion of violence...
and then carrying that statement on people from almost every religion and walk of life have done great evil when in bad circumstances.... so we are all inherently evil! no more or less evil than each other
But if you do want to make generalisations based off a minority, i would say that dutch is a nationality of evil which turns people into raving anti muslims..
Yes, I thought this an interesting double standard too. So everything that happens in history is inevitable and no one could have done anything differently or is really to blame.
Except of course for multiculturalists who alone out of all of humanity ought to know better.:dizzy2:
Regarding the story, it is a horrible incident but I'm afraid not a surprising one. Somalia is not a very nice place.
Ought we to take the actions of the LRA in Uganda as representative of all Christianity?
LeftEyeNine
11-05-2008, 15:33
Dear PJ, despair is for the stiff-minded. 'Cause when you get to see that your ideas are not matching the truth, you'd just make desperate attempts to bring the tidbits of truth out of it, eventually leading you to errors like the intention to ignore obvious examples or understanding your opposite party of the discussion the way you want.
This issue is a matter of pure evilness, where you use religion as a mass-domination method. Adolf Hitler used nationalism as a means of mass domination. Extremists use religion, there were even more massacres that had been done in the name of communism, USA way of democracy still convinced many that "they were liberating Iraq". The quality or the kind of the cover-up does not matter. There are masses and a certain group of people using different ideologies or dogmas in their advantage towards the control of that mass.
If some certain idology was to be blamed, others would be impossible to be used for mass-domination. Yet even democracy was used as a tool.
Briefly, if your mind is stiff enough, you'll crave to skip this obvious truth in despair.
I, on purpose, had given an example of atheism followed by the Catholic one, just to make sure that you wouldn't take it religiously or think that I'd push Christianism into that ring. Despite my attempt you did. Pointing out another error here, 'cause expecting a step forward seems to be failing.
Yes, Islam has a teaching that puts woman one step behind the man. However I simply dislike the way that this act of extreme vandalism is trying to be equalized with the sexual inequality. This is terror, some violence that does not come out of sexual inequality. The purely evil minds nurtured by a war-worn and extremely unstable environment yield such a disgusting crime. And when you cover it up as "in the name of Allah", everyone joins you, let alone reacting.
They made witch hunts in Europe by Medieval ages, didn't they? Please grab my point; when people have not much hope and wealth to sit, think and act responsibly they can be easily directed the way a "clever" one wants them to. It was not about Christianity, nationalism, communism, democracy or Islam. It's all about a mass control where head figures would like their mass to act like.
I never wish that one day your country gets so worn, torn and destabilized that I'd hear of such extreme actions.
Your society may not be doing it today but if it ever gets as bad as Somalia or any other African country is, you'll have thousands in the streets hunting Muslims. It WILL happen. You're even acting as the masterminds of such actions today.
Welcome to the human nature.
LittleGrizzly
11-05-2008, 15:43
I am?
actually quite light on the muslim generalisation's in this topic, but if your claiming you don't generalise muslims ill go back through a few topics (i remember one in the global warming one, and in a variety of other threads, usually nothing to do with islam or muslims) but as for this topic i could only find this gem
No I think it's quite safe to attribute it to the muslim faith,
Like its quite safe to attribute nazism to christianity or being german ?
or how about equating being dutch with having sex with prostitutes and taking drugs ?
or are generalisations just rubbish in general and thats why we should avoid them
damn americans/christians love shooting up schools
damn irish/christians love blowing things up
Just pointing out the sexual inequality in muslim society's
Thats fine, i agree with you there infact, it is the fact you put this down to being muslim is annoying, almost all undeveloped countrys don't have equal rights for women, the fact that a backwards muslim country doesn't have equal rights is not really all that surprising, infact im sure in many western societys (when they were as backwards as somalia) had many cases where someone in power raped some girl with no power and then punished her when she came forward
is the situation of women comparable to their situation in the Netherlands? I don't think so.
the only mention of netherlands was in reference to the fact that thier all rabidly anti-muslim, because you are, i was making a generalisation which is obviously rubbish to prove my point, and no women are treated very differently in somalia to in netherlands... unsurprisingly...
Ignoring that because for your worldview you need cultures to be equal, now that is hypocrite imho.
I don't ignore any evidence, if asked whether developed christian nations have fairer and more equal laws than backward muslim nations, the answer is obvious
Now if you were to ask me for the reasons for the differences i wouldn't mention muslim or christian...
There are problems,
There are many problems in many muslim countries (and christian ones like uganda) but this is a result of undeveloped countries and ignorant populations, simply being a muslim does not automatically make one a rapist or a stoner of rape victims or a terrorist or anything else, to make your statements actually accurate talk of fundamentalist islam or extremist muslims rather than just use the word muslim....
What if netherlands had the worlds highest population of paedophiles, would you excuse me generalising all dutch people as paedophiles in every topic, or would you explain that its a tiny minority that do this and argue the point with me ?
I never use words like 'evil' and never said anything even remotily close to 'all', that is putting words in my mouth.
I took the evil as implied, and whenever you say muslims are.... you don't need to say all, by not saying some muslims, or not saying extremist muslims, you are infact generalising all muslims
going back to my earlier dutch paedophile example...
1) dutch people are paedophiles
2) some dutch people are paedophiles
you see the huge difference in those sentences ?
but it isn't respect that gave us the renaissance but a lack of respect, respect is the enemy of progres.
Yes but the enlightenment came from within our own culture, if we attack thier culture we are just likely to encourage more feverent support for it...
Must have missed your point in German thread, didn't ignore it intentionally I'll have a look.
ok fair enough...
There's some stories that come out of somali that make me wish we had invaded and stayed in somalia. Abandoning them after a few deaths seems so trivial, we could have had change there.
actually quite light on the muslim generalisation's in this topic, but if your claiming you don't generalise muslims ill go back through a few topics (i remember one in the global warming one, and in a variety of other threads, usually nothing to do with islam or muslims) but as for this topic i could only find this gem
Of course I make generalitsations, when you talk about a culture it's impossible not to make them.
Like its quite safe to attribute nazism to christianity or being german ?
Christianity possibly, saviours and all that.
the only mention of netherlands was in reference to the fact that thier all rabidly anti-muslim, because you are, i was making a generalisation which is obviously rubbish to prove my point, and no women are treated very differently in somalia to in netherlands... unsurprisingly...
Of course I could point out that, ah scratch that never worked never will.
Now if you were to ask me for the reasons for the differences i wouldn't mention muslim or christian...
Then you would be looking away from how our cultures developed.
There are problems,
simply being a muslim does not automatically make one a rapist or a stoner of rape victims or a terrorist or anything else
Never said it did, you said I said it, which I didn't.
I took the evil as implied, and whenever you say muslims are.... you don't need to say all, by not saying some muslims, or not saying extremist muslims, you are infact generalising all muslims
That's what you make of it, something with eye and beholder.
going back to my earlier dutch paedophile example...
1) dutch people are paedophiles
2) some dutch people are paedophiles
you see the huge difference in those sentences ?
A massive difference, good think I never use the word 'all', saves confusion.
You are discussing with the perception you have of me, not with my arguments, you insist on proving that I am a muslim hating neo-nanny. Remove the 'all' and there is nothing left. Why so defensive?
Strike For The South
11-05-2008, 18:11
People who were born and raised here. Tribes handed you a much better argument, reduces it all to a flashmob if you chose to consider it to be an incident. I don't think it's an incident.
Maybe you should've done a better job of a assimilating them. This all comes down to power not religion. The power players in these countries or groups use islam as a vechile to keep the population scared wether it be in Holland or Somalia. The Koran is no more dangers than the bible.
Maybe you should've done a better job of a assimilating them. This all comes down to power not religion. The power players in these countries or groups use islam as a vechile to keep the population scared wether it be in Holland or Somalia. The Koran is no more dangers than the bible.
Can't argue with that.
Strike For The South
11-05-2008, 18:25
Can't argue with that.
So why must all muslims be painted with the same brush?
So why must all muslims be painted with the same brush?
Well I don't. Imho you absolutily nailed it right here; This all comes down to power not religion. Why let religion get into the way of a perfect description of reality such as that? Out of respect?
Strike For The South
11-05-2008, 18:40
Well I don't. Imho you absolutily nailed it right here; This all comes down to power not religion. Why let religion get into the way of a perfect description of reality such as that? Out of respect?
I dont.
Koga No Goshi
11-05-2008, 19:15
Those living in the practical world understand that there are differences between cultures, there must be two reality's, one where a 13 year old girl is stoned to death, and disneyland. You have a great time trying to find excuses for it, horrible way to die by the way.
I'm not trying to "find excuses" for anything. You're the one constantly on this soapbox about multiculturalism and Muslim faith, usually blaming the wrong things and condemning things no one has the power to go out and change, so what exactly are you trying to accomplish?
Go tell some extremists that their faith is what's wrong with them-- see how far that gets you. Then go and tell the moderates and normal majority who don't go around stoning people or cutting off heads the same thing -- and see how far it gets you.
Talking about women's rights, social justice, social progress, civil rights, these things are all much more on the right track, which we can work on with other countries, and none of them "require" forcing millions upon millions of people to somehow voluntarily give up the Muslim faith, which is never going to happen anyway. So when you get up and do that it either sounds like idle complaining or else finding a justification for what would otherwise be called racist stereotyping. It actually strikes me as a bit of both.
OH MY GOD!!!!
The exact same people who were defending the german people are now generalising all muslims!!
Very true and not a shock. At all. The same people who bent over backwards to separate out Germans in general from the Holocaust or Nazi ideology paint Muslims with a completely uniform brush.
Papewaio
11-06-2008, 02:49
When was the last stoning in Italy?
"Honor killings are also part of Italy's own history, where the idea of "honor" was an admitted legal defense until 1981. Prior to its reversal, an article existed in the Italian Criminal Code that provided a reduced penalty of imprisonment of only three to seven years for a man who killed his wife, sister or daughter to vindicate his or his family's honor."
So about 27 years ago...
It would seem that wealth, education and technology are far more sure forms of defending women's rights then ancient texts... atheistic technology and consumerist avarice for teh win :laugh4:
LittleGrizzly
11-06-2008, 04:17
Remove the 'all' and there is nothing left. Why so defensive?
Look basically if i say, americans are idiots, its insulting to americans, you have to specifically imply when mentioning a group that you don't mean all the members of that group...
White people are racist isn't a true statement because some white people are racist
and to be honest all your statements taking one at a time don't look so anti muslim but when you seem to bring it up in every topic it does just make you look anti muslim... i can't be bothered with the rest...
Evil_Maniac From Mars
11-06-2008, 04:28
I've said it before and I'll say it again. There is nothing wrong with most Muslims - but there is something wrong with the honour killings, with Islamism, the stonings. The treatment of women, the human rights violations, the treatment of rape victims. These are problems, whoever you choose to attribute them to.
Koga No Goshi
11-06-2008, 09:36
I've said it before and I'll say it again. There is nothing wrong with most Muslims - but there is something wrong with the honour killings, with Islamism, the stonings. The treatment of women, the human rights violations, the treatment of rape victims. These are problems, whoever you choose to attribute them to.
EMFM, I am assuming by Islamism you mean the extremist forms of super Wahabi esque Islam. To which I think you would get no argument from anyone. The problem is that over... and over... and over... people cannot resist the temptation to paint all Muslims, or Arabs, with the same brush by saying basically anything bad that happens anywhere in the Middle East or any crime committed by people from the Middle East is to blame on the religion of Islam.
Very true and not a shock. At all. The same people who bent over backwards to separate out Germans in general from the Holocaust or Nazi ideology paint Muslims with a completely uniform brush.
The funny side of all that is that those people that condemn the germans are always the first to defend terrorists, suddenly there is such a thing as a situation, that forces people to act in a certain way instead of acting out of blind hate. These people are always the first to call someone a hypocrite.
It amazes me how your mind seems to be mentally blocking the simple, repeated and explained fact that I never said 'all'. It's right there, in words, you can read, should be simple even for those who lost half their brain to leftist assumptions.
Koga No Goshi
11-06-2008, 10:00
The funny side of all that is that those people that condemn the germans are always the first to defend terrorists, suddenly there is such a thing as a situation, that forces people to act in a certain way instead of acting out of blind hate. These people are always the first to call someone a hypocrite.
It amazes me how your mind seems to be mentally blocking the simple, repeated and explained fact that I never said 'all'. It's right there, in words, you can read, should be simple even for those who lost half their brain to leftist assumptions.
So all Muslims are terrorists now? Alright, then all Germans are Nazis and should have been hung to the very last man, woman and child.
I never defended a terrorist, and I never mass condemned all Germans. So your delusion about me holding a double standard here is simply that.
So all Muslims are terrorists now? Alright, then all Germans are Nazis and should have been hung to the very last man, woman and child.
Again your brain seems to be mentally blocking the simple, repeated, and explained fact that I never said 'all', quite a fascinating bug.
Tribesman
11-06-2008, 10:31
Fragony is right Koga , his posts go Muslim muslim islam arab immigrant beard backwards islamic goat ****** muslim muslim muslim Muslim , but he doesn't say all :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Redicule, blind spots, and conditioned anti-racist reflexes :yes:
Tribesman
11-06-2008, 11:16
Fragony Re: 13 year old Girl raped and than stoned for "adultary"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Muslim , muslim muslim , and muslim muslim-muslim muslim :yes:
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Oleander Ardens
11-06-2008, 11:18
I didn't expect this to become a pretext of a cultural analysis, but merely a acknowledgment of flashlight on the way the female gender gets treated in an corner of Africa.
My personal thoughts on this are:
1) Traditional patriarchical society embraced and still embrace the islamical religion quite strongly, because the teachings and interpretations of the religion itself were shaped in a strictly patriachical society.
2) Traditional practices can be strongly reeinforced by religious patterns and beliefs or remodelled under the heavy influence of the specific interpretations - which still is grounded in the mainstream interpretaions of the religion.
3) So if both a strong culture and a strong religion are aligned in a social and political climate where heavy violence is accepted on a large scale terrible things can happen to somebody which is perceived to have violeted various rules.
Sadly Somalia is a dark example of it, and the girl suffered her terrible fate. We can not be certain of the exact circumstances, but must be certain that her brutal execution was a terrible crime.
P.S: If such a "mindset" is used here in Europe to punish others the state should use an iron fist and a gentle hand to treat offender and victim respectively.
This issue is a matter of pure evilness, where you use religion as a mass-domination method. Adolf Hitler used nationalism as a means of mass domination. Extremists use religion, there were even more massacres that had been done in the name of communism, USA way of democracy still convinced many that "they were liberating Iraq". The quality or the kind of the cover-up does not matter. There are masses and a certain group of people using different ideologies or dogmas in their advantage towards the control of that mass.
If some certain idology was to be blamed, others would be impossible to be used for mass-domination. Yet even democracy was used as a tool.
Briefly, if your mind is stiff enough, you'll crave to skip this obvious truth in despair.
I, on purpose, had given an example of atheism followed by the Catholic one, just to make sure that you wouldn't take it religiously or think that I'd push Christianism into that ring. Despite my attempt you did. Pointing out another error here, 'cause expecting a step forward seems to be failing.
Yes, Islam has a teaching that puts woman one step behind the man. However I simply dislike the way that this act of extreme vandalism is trying to be equalized with the sexual inequality. This is terror, some violence that does not come out of sexual inequality. The purely evil minds nurtured by a war-worn and extremely unstable environment yield such a disgusting crime. And when you cover it up as "in the name of Allah", everyone joins you, let alone reacting.
They made witch hunts in Europe by Medieval ages, didn't they? Please grab my point; when people have not much hope and wealth to sit, think and act responsibly they can be easily directed the way a "clever" one wants them to. It was not about Christianity, nationalism, communism, democracy or Islam. It's all about a mass control where head figures would like their mass to act like.
I never wish that one day your country gets so worn, torn and destabilized that I'd hear of such extreme actions.
Your society may not be doing it today but if it ever gets as bad as Somalia or any other African country is, you'll have thousands in the streets hunting Muslims. It WILL happen. You're even acting as the masterminds of such actions today.
Welcome to the human nature.
Very interesting angle LEN :bow:
Your view on humanity is very negative but I'm afraid it's also correct.
Maybe it's not what you meant and please forgive me if I misunderstood your viewpoint, but it seems to me like your viewpoint gives the individuals who are part of the so-called masses an easy way out. It takes away the individual responsability, because it gives them an excuse: I was following the mass, I had no choice...
Sure, truly desperate people act different then us spoiled westerners, but there's also such a thing as humanity. The individual always has the choice not to follow the masses.
However, on the other hand, in all honesty, I have to admit that I have never been hungry and desperate so I can't predict how I would react if I were part of a desperate mass that's following some nutjobs.
Would I refuse to follow at the risk of getting stoned myself or would I follow out of fear or (misplaced and false) hope that it will get better if I do as I'm told?
I'm pretty sure that when I would stand there in the front row, ready with a stone in my hand and looking at the 13 year old girl, that I would know for sure that what's happening, is wrong.
But would I still throw the stone at the poor girl?
Sitting in my chair, on a desk, well fed, warm, happily married, owning a house and having some savings on the bank, no dictator or religious nutjobs, let alone a hysterical mass looking at me, I'd say: no, never.
Hungry and desperate, several members of my relatives and close friends killed, sick or dying on no hope for improvement within the next decade, with the eyes of the crazy nutjobs in power on me and a crazy mass consisting of individuals feeling the same as me surrounding me, a mass formed by alot of people who'd happily stone me to dead if only out of fear to be stoned themselves for disobeying the nutjobs in power...
Let's just say I hope I never come into a situation where I have to find out how I would react :shame:
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
But Tribes me saying that only exists in your head, it's a fantasy it isn't real, look what they have done to you...
Actually it is you who has a very tough position to make , if something is nothing to do with Islam then it has nothing to do with Islamic culture .
I think these are your words, writing an aditional page in the sad history of epic faillure (but you never know with the imprinted)
Kralizec
11-06-2008, 12:13
I didn't expect this to become a pretext of a cultural analysis, but merely a acknowledgment of flashlight on the way the female gender gets treated in an corner of Africa.
My personal thoughts on this are:
1) Traditional patriarchical society embraced and still embrace the islamical religion quite strongly, because the teachings and interpretations of the religion itself were shaped in a strictly patriachical society.
2) Traditional practices can be strongly reeinforced by religious patterns and beliefs or remodelled under the heavy influence of the specific interpretations - which still is grounded in the mainstream interpretaions of the religion.
3) So if both a strong culture and a strong religion are aligned in a social and political climate where heavy violence is accepted on a large scale terrible things can happen to somebody which is perceived to have violeted various rules.
Sadly Somalia is a dark example of it, and the girl suffered her terrible fate. We can not be certain of the exact circumstances, but must be certain that her brutal execution was a terrible crime.
P.S: If such a "mindset" is used here in Europe to punish others the state should use an iron fist and a gentle hand to treat offender and victim respectively.
Great post!
Just like communism was in practice a mask for dictatorships like the USSR, Islam is a mask for retarded tribal practices such as these. To think that Somalia became such a hellhole because of Islam is misguided, but to say that Islam and lynching women for being raped are completely unrelated is equally daft.
A wifebeating primitive belonging to a tribe that worships animals or spirits who's looking to join one of the "big" religions is more likely to convert to one that matches his existing mindset and attitude. And once a tribal community's traditions are imbedded in divine endorsement they're harder to get rid of.
LeftEyeNine
11-06-2008, 12:51
Andres, that's pretty much what I've intended to say. :bow:
When you are damn desperate about the life you have, you'd crave for something good (sexual pleasure). You wouldn't mind your action 'cause there are no reasonings for you to have improved your view on life, hence your humanist perspective (Somalia throughout the history) and eventually you know that joining the mass wouldn't hurt you at all (stoning decision to clear up your mess).
Now that was the individual perspective from the insiders of the terrible incident.
I'm pretty sure that when I would stand there in the front row, ready with a stone in my hand and looking at the 13 year old girl, that I would know for sure that what's happening, is wrong.
But would I still throw the stone at the poor girl?
You're in a mass, noone is different than the other, you got no future, blend in, throw it !
However, on the other hand, in all honesty, I have to admit that I have never been hungry and desperate so I can't predict how I would react if I were part of a desperate mass that's following some nutjobs.
Here's my boy. :smoking:
***
Remember, the most dangerous weapon of all time was always on the surface of the earth: A human being with nothing to lose. And there always will be someone to push the button of that "weapon".
:bow:
LittleGrizzly
11-06-2008, 13:19
The funny side of all that is that those people that condemn the germans are always the first to defend terrorists, suddenly there is such a thing as a situation, that forces people to act in a certain way instead of acting out of blind hate. These people are always the first to call someone a hypocrite.
I agree its completely hypocritical, please can you point out the hypocritical people that switched sides like you, i definetly didn't, i was defending both and was on the same side of both debates, defending the germans and defending the muslims, im not sure which leftys were on different sides of both debates i just noticed you and pj defending germans but switching sides when it came to muslims.
It amazes me how your mind seems to be mentally blocking the simple, repeated and explained fact that I never said 'all'. It's right there, in words, you can read, should be simple even for those who lost half their brain to leftist assumptions.
Whats quite funny is you are calling me stupid but infact are wrong here yourself, i will refrain from comments about stupidity as you are not a native english speaker you may not understand the difference (or you may just be being obtuse i will assume the first one though)
If i say Americans are stupid, i am making a generalisation, as i just said americans are, the all is automatically a taken unless you specifically mention it is not
quite simply
1)Americans are stupid
2) Some americans are stupid
1)Blacks are lazy
2) Some blacks are lazy
Please tell me you understand that the 1 is a generalisation and the second number 1 is a racist comment, you see how the word all is not needed to make it racist ?
both 2's are true, there are stupid americans and lazy blacks but can you not see how different the statements are ?
I have explained this already so just tell me if you don't understand what i am saying, if you just stick you fingers in your ears again and shout ¨i didn't say all!' then you are just being obtuse....
Muslims are
In muslim society's
Now what words did uncle Fragony use?
indeed.
I agree its completely hypocritical, please can you point out the hypocritical people that switched sides like you
que wut? I never defended the stoning of a 13 year old girl how did I switch sides?
And this is what Africans (and hippies) call "Africa should cope with its problems alone. Europeans leave Africa".
Call me racist , call me imperialist - . .. it. 2nd half of XIX century was best time for Africa. Since fall of colonisation most of Africa falls.
LeftEyeNine
11-06-2008, 14:44
Never thought that these people are suffering the fallout of the colonisation times, right?
Don Corleone
11-06-2008, 15:04
I cannot blame the Islamic religion for this act any more than I can blame evangelical protestantism for Fred Phelps, or than I can blame Roman Catholicism (my own belief system) for some of the horror stories we're now hearing about Catholic sponsored orphanages in Ireland. All of which have some technical justification under the rules on the books, but all are gross miscarriages of justice, from the perspective of the vast majorities of the believers, as deliberate misinterpretations of that dogma.
I think it's a horrible, horrible story. But the Hutuus and Tutsis are mostly "Christian". Does that mean the Rwandan genocide was due to Christianity?
I don't think too many of us, even LEN, undrestand Sharia well enough to say this is congruous with the spirit of the law or not. Declaring yourself to be an expert on the intent of a legal system you do not understand makes you look like a simple-minded idiot. :shrug:
And you are claiming that it was Whites who taught them to stone children?
And you are claiming that it was Whites who taught them to stone children?
Did you read LEN's other posts in this thread, in particular the one I quoted 10 posts ago?
There you will find LEN's opinion on this sad event.
:bow:
Ser Clegane
11-06-2008, 15:14
2nd half of XIX century was best time for Africa.
Yep - those were the times (http://www.yale.edu/gsp/colonial/belgian_congo/index.html)
:thumbsdown:
(EDIT: I would have added this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_Genocide)as well - but technically it is of course not 19th century anymore...)
http://www.amazon.com/King-Leopolds-Ghost-Heroism-Colonial/dp/0618001905
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=scramble+for+africa&x=0&y=0
^- Krook read up
Hardly any fun
LittleGrizzly
11-06-2008, 15:36
Now what words did uncle Fragony use?
indeed.
ok fine lets look at your words, page 1 of this thread
No I think it's quite safe to attribute it to the muslim faith,
As safe as it is to attribute the holocaust to christianity or germanness ?
If no, inconsistent, if yes then fair enough your consistent but i have to disagree
Damn backroom does not show up in search results!!
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=2044372&postcount=18 (from this link)
But I don't want a muslim president for the same reason I don't want a nazi president
So simply being a muslim is the equivelent of being a nazi?!
and you see nothing wrong with this statement ?!
What if i said i didn't want a white president for the same reason i don't want a nazi president
Hell whites have caused plenty of desruction, and contain the top 2 all time killers... Hitler and Stalin, so theres a good supporting argument there (like theres a good supporting argument about muslims to do with terrorism and sexism ect.) but no amount of supporting arguments change the fact that my statement about not wanting a white president for same reason i don't want a nazi president is a racist statement...
do you see my statement about a white president as racist ?
I will point out that you did say later in the post that most muslims are good, so fair play there...
Yeah so? I thought we had already established that there is a certain degree sexual inequality and suspicion in the muslim faith? Am I making that up?
And if I say that I don't want a muslim president for the same reason I don't want a nazi president, ok I can understand the confusion should have added communist as well. I hate totalitarism,
LittleGrizzly
11-06-2008, 16:08
I thought we had already established that there is a certain degree sexual inequality and suspicion in the muslim faith?
Ok firstly not sure what you mean by suspicion, but yes there is sexual inequality in most muslim societys, and there is sexual inequality in the islamic religion but there is in christianity as well, and i assume you wouldn't not vote for a christian for this reason, so it must be to do with muslim societys right ?
there is a certain degree of racism in america, would that stop you from ever voting for an american ?
there is a certain degree of slaughtering innocents, sexism, racism and ignorance in the land dominated by blacks (africa) would that stop you voting for a black man ?
The fact that theres sexual inequality is most muslim states is no reason to generalise muslims... theres sexual ineqaulity and lots of other bad things in most backward states
Ok serious question now, not just trying to catch you out but im genuinely curious...
Lets go back sometime to when pretty much the whole world was sexist and had plenty of other problems...
Hypothetically there is some muslim state which is like our modern day democracys in the west, a muslim voter is having a discussion with his friend and states "i would never vote for a christian" (because of all the backwards christian states and christian individuals he is assuming all christians are about sexual inequality ect.) would his statement be a fair one, or would it be an unfair generalisation of christians ?
The fact that theres sexual inequality is most muslim states is no reason to generalise muslims... theres sexual ineqaulity and lots of other bad things in most backward states
It's not a generalisation it's an observation, if it is what it is what's your problem.
LittleGrizzly
11-06-2008, 16:56
It's not a generalisation it's an observation, if it is what it is what's your problem.
Look basically you stated you would not vote for a muslim president, when asked why you put it down to sexual inequality in muslim countrys, i can only put this down to a few things...
1) because some muslims don't believe in sexual eqaulity none of them do, which is a generalisation
2) you refuse to vote for someone who believes in the same religion that people who believe in sexual eqaulity believe in, which isn't true because im sure you would vote for a christian candidate
I may have got confused, you gave totalarinism as a reason as well, that actually fits the examples even better, and is so obviously rubbish, look at turkey
1) because muslim countrys are mostly ruled by totalitarians all muslims must be totalitarian, generalisation
2) because muslim countrys are mostly ruled by totalitarians all muslims must have totalitarian tendancys, generalisation
3) you refuse to vote for someone who shares a religion with people who are totalitarians, well thats simply not true as you would vote for a christian and there are christians who are totalitarian...
So basically unless there is some other meaning (or you didn't now christians were totalitarian as well) your statement is a generalisation
and what about my hypothetical question... i really am curious....
Hypothetically there is some muslim state which is like our modern day democracys in the west, a muslim voter is having a discussion with his friend and states "i would never vote for a christian" (because of all the backwards christian states and christian individuals he is assuming all christians are about sexual inequality and totalitarianism ect.) would his statement be a fair one, or would it be an unfair generalisation of christians ?
Unfair but understandable, as for the president, you found the quote so you should be able to find my argumentation.
LittleGrizzly
11-06-2008, 17:28
Unfair but understandable
Ok i can respect that, but do you think his statement is a generalisation of christians ?
as for the president, you found the quote so you should be able to find my argumentation.
ok, here is the reasoning...
it's a sick religion that has brought nothing other then misery and death at worst and backwardness at best.
I think you could apply that comment to religion in general, christianity has plenty of blood and misery on its hands even today, and even in developed societies you'll have christians who don't believe in dinosaurs... so i don't really see why you should not want a muslim president any less than a christian one...
That is how a pretty much feel about the islam(ism) yes, and difficulties in foreign affairs because of overblown expectations, in the dutch case double nationality, and the fact that it is a religion and a political system. And no that wouldn't be a generalisation of christians.
I saw and .... whats that. What had happen after imperials conquered black africa and crushed uprisings? 50 years of peace - small conflicts but not full war. What is happening into former Belgian Kongo now? Do you know what is difference beetwen colonialism and situation now.
Into colonialism after conquer is peace. Now nothing lead to peace.
LittleGrizzly
11-06-2008, 18:43
And no that wouldn't be a generalisation of christians.
Well then i think one of us doesn't understand what a generalisation is (me for all i know) i really don't know the english langauge and semantics well enough to argue the point from here, i guess we will have to agree to disagree...
Whilst i still find your views disagreeable, they do seem a lot more sensible and far less bigoted than i originally thought, so i apologise if i offended you with my anti-muslim view of you, though if you could define your statements more carefully on muslims it would help my understanding of your views (and probably help you avoid warning points.. :wink:)
LittleGrizzly
11-06-2008, 18:47
I saw and .... whats that. What had happen after imperials conquered black africa and crushed uprisings? 50 years of peace - small conflicts but not full war. What is happening into former Belgian Kongo now? Do you know what is difference beetwen colonialism and situation now.
Into colonialism after conquer is peace. Now nothing lead to peace.
Krook half the problems there now are directly or indirectly because of colonialism, the terribly drawn borders, the resources stolen and one of the indirect problems being the ability of african dictators to point at the white man as the problem, rather than thier own tyrannical goverments, and our inability to then interfere without it looking like colonialism
Tribesman
11-06-2008, 18:54
I saw and .... whats that. What had happen after imperials conquered black africa and crushed uprisings? 50 years of peace - small conflicts but not full war. What is happening into former Belgian Kongo now? Do you know what is difference beetwen colonialism and situation now.
Into colonialism after conquer is peace. Now nothing lead to peace.
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Bollox
LeftEyeNine
11-06-2008, 18:58
I saw and .... whats that. What had happen after imperials conquered black africa and crushed uprisings? 50 years of peace - small conflicts but not full war. What is happening into former Belgian Kongo now? Do you know what is difference beetwen colonialism and situation now.
Into colonialism after conquer is peace. Now nothing lead to peace.
Crushing uprisings? Uprisings to what ? Conflicts of what? How many deaths?
Most of all, how can you so freely use the same so-called simplification you deny when it comes to Poles and Nazis topic ? How does it feel ?
Yoyoma1910
11-06-2008, 19:00
I saw and .... whats that. What had happen after imperials conquered black africa and crushed uprisings? 50 years of peace - small conflicts but not full war. What is happening into former Belgian Kongo now? Do you know what is difference beetwen colonialism and situation now.
Into colonialism after conquer is peace. Now nothing lead to peace.
The Belgian Congo???? Are you aware of the level of atrocities committed under Leopold 2? Have you read Heart of Darkness? King Leopold's Ghost?
Tribesman
11-06-2008, 19:15
The Belgian Congo????
Is that in Poland ?
Yoyoma1910
11-06-2008, 19:16
Is that in Poland ?
No, France.
LeftEyeNine
11-06-2008, 19:20
No, France.
Uh-huh, no wonder why it was a distinct topic to KrooK.
Whilst i still find your views disagreeable, they do seem a lot more sensible and far less bigoted than i originally thought, so i apologise if i offended you with my anti-muslim view of you, though if you could define your statements more carefully on muslims it would help my understanding of your views (and probably help you avoid warning points.. :wink:)
Good to hear, no need to apoligise you didn't offend me :beam:
edit, another great book on the Congo http://www.amazon.com/Blood-River-Journey-Africas-Broken/dp/0802118771/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1226000690&sr=8-1
Koga No Goshi
11-06-2008, 22:36
I cannot blame the Islamic religion for this act any more than I can blame evangelical protestantism for Fred Phelps, or than I can blame Roman Catholicism (my own belief system) for some of the horror stories we're now hearing about Catholic sponsored orphanages in Ireland. All of which have some technical justification under the rules on the books, but all are gross miscarriages of justice, from the perspective of the vast majorities of the believers, as deliberate misinterpretations of that dogma.
I think it's a horrible, horrible story. But the Hutuus and Tutsis are mostly "Christian". Does that mean the Rwandan genocide was due to Christianity?
I don't think too many of us, even LEN, undrestand Sharia well enough to say this is congruous with the spirit of the law or not. Declaring yourself to be an expert on the intent of a legal system you do not understand makes you look like a simple-minded idiot. :shrug:
DC wins this thread.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
11-06-2008, 23:13
EMFM, I am assuming by Islamism you mean the extremist forms of super Wahabi esque Islam.
I mean Islam as a political ideology. For example, the creation of Islamic theocracies, Wahabi Islam, universal application of Sharia law, Islamic militancy, et cetera.
The problem is that over... and over... and over... people cannot resist the temptation to paint all Muslims, or Arabs, with the same brush
You can never paint anyone with the same brush, but you have to look at who is involved. If it is consistently Muslims doing these things, you cannot vilify Islam, but you must draw the connection.
anything bad that happens anywhere in the Middle East or any crime committed by people from the Middle East is to blame on the religion of Islam.
You can't put the blame in the religion of Islam as a whole, but you can cite that as a basis for these radical beliefs. Most Muslims are wonderful people, generally peaceful, and I encourage these Muslims to stand up, speak out, and honestly say that "these people have nothing to do with us." Then we can get rid of the politically correct nonsense and go after the radicals.
You're right - you can't blame Islam. But you can blame the radicals who are using it for their own gain, or for their twisted views of what Islam is.
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