Indo-European + ? = Greek

[Anastasios Helios]

I'm curious to discover the linguistical origin of the Greek language. To my knowledge, "Proto-Greek speakers" entered Greece around 2000 b.c. and merged with the cultures that already existed there to create the culture that we saw around time of the Trojan War. But does anyone have any knowledge about the cultures and languages that existed in the Aegean, Greece, Kypros, and Crete before then? I have heard rumor before that the original languages of Kypros and Crete were possibly of Egyptian/Mesopotamian origin. Also, there was a language spoken at Lemnos that was related to Etruscan....could these languages have belonged to a related family of non-Indo-European languages? Perhaps it constituted a culture and identity (Minoan for example) that existed and eventully merged with Indo-Europeans to form a "Greek" culture...can anyone explain this better to me?

[keravnos]

I'm curious to discover the linguistical origin of the Greek language. To my knowledge, "Proto-Greek speakers" entered Greece around 2000 b.c. and merged with the cultures that already existed there to create the culture that we saw around time of the Trojan War. But does anyone have any knowledge about the cultures and languages that existed in the Aegean, Greece, Kypros, and Crete before then? I have heard rumor before that the original languages of Kypros and Crete were possibly of Egyptian/Mesopotamian origin. Also, there was a language spoken at Lemnos that was related to Etruscan....could these languages have belonged to a related family of non-Indo-European languages? Perhaps it constituted a culture and identity (Minoan for example) that existed and eventully merged with Indo-Europeans to form a "Greek" culture...can anyone explain this better to me?

There was a thriving culture that predated the greek one. They were the first farmers who came from Anatolia and eradicated the hunter gatherers living in Greece. The common name of their culture was Pelasgian. It was Anatolian in Origin, not Egyptian while it did have a lot of influence from there. There are still to this day the names of that period. Any greek name you see with a -nth- in it is thought to be Pelasgian. Kori-nth-os, Tiry-nth-a, Zaky-nth-os, for example. Even the Attic and Ionian dialects are influenced by the Pelasgian tongue (that is now gone). Compared with IndoIranian and Protogreek, Attic and Ionian greek is riddled with "o"s and "e"s instead of the predominant "a" that is evident throughout IndoEuropean languages. Even within greek world itself, Dorian Greeks, such as Makedones, Epeirotes, Akarnanians and Aitolians had a dialect which kept more of the IndoEuropean "doctrine" than the Ionian/Attic one (Attic has been considered by some an offshoot of Ionian dialect, as the residents of Attike/Athens were the Ionian survivors from the Dorian tribes invasion). Sparta in Dorian Greek, vs Sparte in Ionian/Attic Greek.

Molossians were one such people. Originally residing in what is now Greek Macedonia and Not greek, they were subjugated by Hellenic tribes, and after been Hellenized, they migrated en masse to what is now Central Albania. They were ousted to the South by the Illyrians who immigrated there from what is now N. Serbia under pressure from other Indo Europeans. Molossians then retreated to what is now S. Albania and present Epeiros. In doing so, they split the "Thes"(oi) peoples into the "original" Thes(oi) the "Thesprotoi" or primal,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesprotia
and the "Thesaloi" or "other", presently known as Thesalians/Thessaloi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaly

Kypros was populated by Syrian peoples, called Alasyia. It is mentioned in Hittite cuniform texts found in the Hittite capital. It was colonised in Mycenaean times by mostly Arcadians who gave it its name. The Hellenic dialect those spoke is called Arkado-Kypriake and it persists to this day, albeit evolved.

Now, Krete is a different story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_civilization
While most likely Pelasgian too in origins, aka the first farmers who came from Anatolia over the sea and defeating the hunter gatherers there, it retained a distinct flavor of its own. It even controlled the Aegean once through trade and colonies. What language did they speak exactly? Well, unless someone decifers Minoan A, we can't know. It is called Eteocretan,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eteocretan
Its written form has been called Linear A.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A
It has been found on Santorini, as well, in which a whole Minoan settlement in "Akrotiri", the Minoan Pompey has been unearthed. I still vividly remember going there, years back. A very awe inspiring place.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akrotiri_(Santorini)

Minoans were actively trading with Egypt, but weren't Egyptian per se. As for Pelasgian being babylonian, I honestly don't know. I think it was more Mikrasian/Anatolian in origin rather than Babylonian per se. I know, though that there are certain people who have laid claims to being Pelasgians and what have you. I don't think any Pelasgian people exists. My personal wish is for a link to be established between Pelasgian, Etruscan and Caria (where the Pelasgians came from, according to Herodotos). Maybe if we could read Etruscan, we could have a link between them. There could be. We are still in the dark, though.

I hope you got some answers from reading this.

[Timoleon]

Great post Keravne! Thank you for the information.
I had never thought that Thesprotoi an Thessaloi had common ancestors!
I also had the impression that the word Thessalia (ΘΕΣΣΑΛΙΑ) came from the words ΘΕΣΗ ΑΛΟΣ (Thessi alos), meaning "the position of the sea", which denotes that the Thessalian plains where sometime in the past under the sea, something which is confirmed by the findings in Meteora.

[keravnos]

There is a not one single answer as to that (where Thessalos/Thessalia comes from). I know as my father was from Thessaly. Thessaloi were the Dorian invaders who occupied the western of Thessaly, present day Karditsa and Trikala prefectures, driving away the Ionians/Aitolians who lived there. A lot went further to the east, to present day Larissa and Volos prefectures. Most however, fled to Southern Greece and later on became known as the Thebans/Thebaioi.



I had never thought that Thesprotoi an Thessaloi had common ancestors!


Think about it. When the Molossians came over from what is known middle Albania, the people who lived in present day Ioannina prefecture had to go someplace.

[Gleemonex]

And I thought the answer was "tzatziki".

[Celtic_Punk]

What about the Mycenaeans? them blood thirsty buggers merked the Minoans, and to the best of my knowledge they helped form the hellens.

[Timoleon]

There is a not one single answer as to that (where Thessalos/Thessalia comes from).

Generally, I have the impression that ancient Greeks gave region names after the name of the peoples inhabiting there and not the other way around, but I may be mistaken. If this is true, then the etymology you stated in your first post sounds more probable.

[keravnos]

What about the Mycenaeans? them blood thirsty buggers merked the Minoans, and to the best of my knowledge they helped form the hellens.

Μυκηναίοι, "Mycenaeans" were Greek/Hellenes, part of the first wave to hit Hellas and mingle with Pelasgoi. Other names for Mycenaeans are Achaians and Ionians. While Dorians stayed in the North, those two Greek tribal federations ventured South. When Dorians invaded, they remained in mainland Hellas only in secluded places, aka Attica, Arcadia and Achaia and later Theba.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_period

For more on their language,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_language
its writtten form,
http://www.ancientscripts.com/linearb.html

[machinor]

Wow. Keravnos' posts are as informative and interesting as always. Very interesting read.

[keravnos]

And I thought the answer was "tzatziki".

Very sorry to dissapoint... :)

[Maion Maroneios]

Wow, keravnos that was very informative indeed! Good to know there are still people like you out there, people who actually bother to do some proper research and reading on their own, instead of parroting whatever they hear on the internet.

Maion

[Anastasios Helios]

hmmm...tzatziki. I'm going to become hungry before soon. :2thumbsup:

Mr. Keravnos, you answered my question better than I could have ever hoped for...I am almost entirely sure that the Etruscans (even the Rhaetians maybe), were the cousins of the Pelasgoi. Like you said, we just do not know enough about their languages. Maybe we'll unearth some type of Rosetta Stone one day and we'll learn the truth! :D

I never knew that the Ionian dialects were more "Pelasgian" than the Dorian dialects. But now that I think of it, it begins to make sense. The Dorians invaded the motherland FROM THE NORTH sometime after the Trojan War ushering in the Dark Ages. The Ionians were from ANATOLIA...which is where the Etruscans have their origin.

The biggest surprise was your confirmation that the Kyprioi were originally Syrians. I wish that there was some type of book where I could read about this stuff all day...I also want to see some Tsifteteli right now.
:belly:

I smell a thesis topic (+ visit to Greece/Turkey/Kypros) coming...

Respect Keranvos! (Think Ali G)

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Very interesting read. :2thumbsup:

[-Praetor-]

But what about the achaian invasion?

Or are you identifying the achaians with the pelasgians?

[keravnos]

Just some clarifications. Ionians hadn't gone over to Anatolia yet, let alone come from there. They did go over there because of the Dorian invasion.

Achaians+Ionians=Mycenaeans. Mycenaeans invaded the south.



Or are you identifying the Achaians with the pelasgians?

No. Totally different. Achaians+Ionians also known as Mycaeans , are IndoEuropeans. Pelasgians are not.

The greek name "Αχαιοι"/Achaians is really close to "Αρχαιοι"/Ancient.
Just another thing to think about.



I never knew that the Ionian dialects were more "Pelasgian" than the Dorian dialects. But now that I think of it, it begins to make sense. The Dorians invaded the motherland FROM THE NORTH sometime after the Trojan War ushering in the Dark Ages. The Ionians were from ANATOLIA...which is where the Etruscans have their origin.


Wrong. Ionians and Achaians and Arcadians, also collectively known as Mycenaeans did come from the Balkans themselves, they just were the first to arrive in South Hellas. Not content to live in Makedonia and Epeiros, they invaded the South. Others stayed there. Later on they too descended on the South as Dorians. Those who did stay, became known as Makedones and Epeirotes.

Ionians had no place to go.
To preserve their identity (and keep from being slaves) when the Dorians invaded they fled to what is now Turkeys' Aegean shores.

[Shatov]

How does early Armenian compare with the earliest records of Greek without all the Pelasgian influence? It would be interesting to compare Armenian without the Caucasian influence with Greek without the pre-Greek influence.

[Anastasios Helios]

Wrong. Ionians and Achaians and Arcadians, also collectively known as Mycenaeans did come from the Balkans themselves, they just were the first to arrive in South Hellas. Not content to live in Makedonia and Epeiros, they invaded the South. Others stayed there. Later on they too descended on the South as Dorians. Those who did stay, became known as Makedones and Epeirotes.

Ionians had no place to go.
To preserve their identity (and keep from being slaves) when the Dorians invaded they fled to what is now Turkeys' Aegean shores.

Gotcha :)

I have also heard before that there is some type of connection between Greek and Armenian. Do you know anything about this?

[gamegeek2]

There is a debate going on whether Greek is more closely related to Armenian or Indo-Iranian. However, there are certainly similarities with other languages as well. For example, the Gaulish (which is a p-Celtic language, meaning "kw" sounds become "p") word for horse is epos, which seems similar to Greek hippos. However, this is, in reconstructed Proto-Indo-European, hekwos or markos (both are represented throughout Indo-European languages).

[keravnos]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/IndoEuropeanTree.svg

This this the most accepted map of the IndoEuropean languages family tree.

There have been both assumptions. That Greek is connected to Armenian or Iranian. I think that both are correct, but miss the larger picture.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis

I consider the Kurgan Hypothesis as the most plausible explanation on what happened for all IndoEuropean peoples. In there...



Subsequent expansion beyond the steppes led to hybrid, or in Gimbutas's terms "kurganized" cultures, such as the Globular Amphora culture to the west. From these kurganized cultures came the immigration of proto-Greeks to the Balkans and the nomadic Indo-Iranian cultures to the east around 2500 BC.


This tells me that if a Kurganized culture would go to the Balkans they would become Proto-Greeks. If they would go eastwards they would become Indo-Iranians. In 2500 BCE I am pretty confident that the differences between ProtoGreeks and IndoIranians were just where one should go for a better life. East or West.

[blitzkrieg80]

I agree with Kervanos, concerning the Kurgan hypothesis, which is very solid by linguistic evidence... archaeological evidence for the Anatolian theory is very subjective and totally illogical considering later migrations. it would be comparable to Puritan pilgrims sailing back to England with an impaired hippocampus.

nice discussion ppl, btw... love IE and non IE stuff... too bad so much can only be theory :wall: stupid unrecorded 'prehistory' ~;)

[keravnos]

Out of India is even better.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Out_of_india
A whole theory, which is DEAD AGAINST what the holliest of hindu texts, Rigveda
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda
Rigveda describes the descent from present day Afghanistan into Indus. Then other vedas speak for the drive further on to the Indus mouth burning the jungle forest to make way for cultivation.

(Early Aryans used Soma/Haoma,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soma
an ephedra based drink, much like EB's timeline Haomavarga (Haoma drinkers) Saka). This plant, does NOT grow in India, yet the first Aryans used it.


The plant is described as growing in the mountains (giristha, cf. Orestes), with long stalks, and of yellow or tawny (hari) colour. The drink is prepared by priests pounding the stalks with stones, an occupation that creates tapas (literally "heat"). The juice so gathered is mixed with other ingredients (including milk) before it is drunk.


Later on, it became unavailable, as Indoaryans moved towards the east.


Later, knowledge of the plant was lost altogether, and Indian ritual reflects this, in expiatory prayers apologizing to the gods for the use of a substitute plant (e.g. rhubarb) because Soma had become unavailable.


Even the movement of west to East is shown clearly at the Vedas, yet there are people who suggest IndoIranians went the other way. There is a great documentary which describes that process, whose name I really can't remember ATM.

[gamegeek2]

I agree with the Kurgan hypothesis, too, even though I'm no linguist

[Ibrahim]

on thye note concerning IE, is it possible to establish which gourp of languages are most closely related to IE (as in, most direct decendants)?

that would be quite interesting:yes:

[Anastasios Helios]

I believe that it is Baltic or Slavic...as they would have traveled the smallest distance from the hypothetical Indo-European homeland...

[Zeibek]

[QUOTE=keravnos;2056304]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4f/IndoEuropeanTree.svg

Concerning the position of Tocharian in that tree, is it close to the Balto-Slavic branch for any particular reason, or is it just a question of space? Anyway, great posts everyone, this stuff is simply marvelous.

To return to closer to the original topic, could someone inform me about the most probable candidates for the notorious Linear A language. Though Linear A shares some symbols with its decyphered cousin Linear B, substituting the Linear B phonetic values with the Linear A script gives words that do not resemble any known language. I don't remember whether Linear A and B ever coexisted, but it is certain that Linear A speakers were a separate people. I've heard many theories, the most convincing being that it's an Anatolian language somewhat close to Lycian, as Herodotos (IIRC, could be someone else or that I just made that up) says that the Lycians had close ties with Crete.

And while I'm asking weird questions how many of you think that the Etruscans are originally Lydians? Bovine DNA, historical records in the form of Herodotos and the fact that Lemnian is closely related to Etruscan support this argument. Then again the sheer incredulity of the proposition puts off some people.

[Zeibek]

I believe that it is Baltic or Slavic...as they would have traveled the smallest distance from the hypothetical Indo-European homeland...

(Sorry about the double post!)

Yes, I think that Lithuanian has the most archaisms of any living Indo-European language, but I don't think that it is directly related to the close proximity of the PIE urheimat, but instead is more affected by the rule of periphery: innovations and loans are less likely to be adopted from others when your neighbours are scarce and you yourself are isolated.

[Ibrahim]

(Sorry about the double post!)

Yes, I think that Lithuanian has the most archaisms of any living Indo-European language, but I don't think that it is directly related to the close proximity of the PIE urheimat, but instead is more affected by the rule of periphery: innovations and loans are less likely to be adopted from others when your neighbours are scarce and you yourself are isolated.

I see. well, I go look at it:

EDIT: nice language. can anyone explain though how the inverted a is pronunced (th IPA symbol)?

[Celtic_Punk]

Hey... I dont parrot BS off the internets... I read books, I just don't remember each book I've read and pulled out of the library. And I only have a few of my own on this timeframe. My big hobby is WW2, ive got an entire bookshelf dedicated to books and what have you on WW2. I even own a .303 Lee Enfield.

Thankyou though Kervanos, I usually bookmark your posts so i can go back and read your findings later :P