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desert

11-09-2008, 09:25

So, did Gaesatae fight with spears or swords? Several other sources claim they were armed with the former, and that Gaesatae means "spearmen".

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Gaesatae
http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1O70-Gaesatae.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=-yd1huHoXJwC&pg=PA84&lpg=PA84&dq=Gaesatae&source=web&ots=oYUiHDgOr8&sig=BFHEAooO_mYzENw46nu-ju51BDI&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA84,M1
http://www.isle-of-skye.org.uk/celtic-encyclopaedia/celt_c3.htm
and Wikipedia

Are you/they wrong, or is information about the Gaesatae too ambiguous to be certain?

MarcusAureliusAntoninus

11-09-2008, 09:34

I think they had javelin/spear/sword but the game only allows for two weapons...

Power2the1

11-09-2008, 20:51

Their main weapon was probably the gaesum/gaeson, or throwing spear, but no doubt they would have been trained to melee with all manner of weapons like swords and such. They probably did not fight as a phalanx as that one link mentioned only because their mode of battle, at least at Telamon, did not fit the phalanx model. Its even known that some of them could have fought wearing armor, such as their king at the battle of Clastidium.

EB2 will have some changes done to this unit chances are ~:)

theoldbelgian

11-10-2008, 00:57

ow wait a second
the gaesatae are the naked guys right
It has to be ,I still wake up sweating while screaming gaesatae every night
so what you are saying is there was a king of the naked guys and he wore armor?
how does that cope?

Power2the1

11-10-2008, 02:04

I think when the gaesatae were first concepted long ago in EB1, every single one of them had to be naked due to RTW engine limits.

Now with MTW2 we can mix it up a bit on what they wear. Chances are the majority will still remain naked but a king, possibly of the gaesatae, wore gleaming armor. That might hint that some would wear armor. We'll see how it all turns out though

Heres the record mentioning such things:

http://classics.mit.edu/Plutarch/marcellu.html
The king of the Gauls beholding Marcellus, and from the badges of his authority conjecturing him to be the general, advanced some way before his embattled army, and with a loud voice challenged him, and, brandishing his lance, fiercely ran in full career at him; exceeding the rest of the Gauls in stature, and with his armour, that was adorned with gold and silver and various colours, shining like lightning. These arms seeming to Marcellus, while he viewed the enemy's army drawn up in battalia, to be the best and fairest, and thinking them to be those he had vowed to Jupiter, he instantly ran upon the king, and pierced through his breastplate with his lance; then pressing upon him with the weight of his horse, threw him to the ground, and with two or three strokes more slew him. Immediately he leapt from his horse, laid his hand upon the dead king's arm and, looking up towards Heaven, thus spoke: "O Jupiter Feretrius, arbiter of the exploits of captains, and of the acts of commanders in war and battles, be thou witness that I, a general, have slain a general: I, a consul, have slain a king with my own hand, third of all the Romans; and that to thee I consecrate these first and most excellent of the spoils. Grant to us to despatch the relics of the war with the same course of fortune." Then the Roman horse joining battle not only with the enemy's horse, but also with the foot who attacked them, obtained a singular and unheard-of victory. For never before or since have so few horse defeated such numerous forces of horse and foot together. The enemies being to a great number slain, and the spoils collected, he returned to his colleague, who was conducting the war, with ill-success, against the enemies near the greatest and most populous of the Gallic cities, Milan. This was their capital, and, therefore, fighting valiantly in defence of it, they were not so much besieged by Cornelius, as they besieged him. But Marcellus having returned, and the Gaesatae retiring as soon as they were certified of the death of the king and the defeat of his army, Milan was taken. The rest of their towns, and all they had, the Gauls delivered up of their own accord to the Romans, and had peace upon equitable conditions granted to them.

hoom

11-10-2008, 09:30

The only Gaesatae in that passage (at least as translated) are the ones that were at Milan and withdrew after the death of the Cisalpine Gaulish king.
There is no indication he was a Gaesatae king.

Ca Putt

11-10-2008, 13:39

armor does not have to hide evreything.

Power2the1

11-11-2008, 00:35

The only Gaesatae in that passage (at least as translated) are the ones that were at Milan and withdrew after the death of the Cisalpine Gaulish king.
There is no indication he was a Gaesatae king.

~:doh: You are right...I totally forgot to post all of it. Ok lets start over with a full background to the battle of Clastidium ~:)

Ok, what I forgot to add in the prior post is the king of the Gaesatae is mention by name; Britomarus. Hes the only king mentioned in the passage at all, so the king in the second paragraph that is killed by Marcellus must have been him. It seems there was a combined Gaesatae and Gallic (Insubrian?) force here, but the details are not terrible clear as to who is who. Of the 30,000 Gaesatae that come across the Alps, Britomarus appears to take 10,000 soldiers with him to raid but its not clear if these are all Gaesatae he brought or both Gaesatae and Isubres. Therefore when cavalry is mentioned as being apart of this 10,000 we are unsure if these are mounted Gaesatae, Insubres, or both? The details are not overly clear.

So soon as Flaminius with his colleague had resigned the consulate, Marcellus was declared consul by the presiding officers called Interrexes; and, entering into the magistracy, chose Cnaeus Cornelius his colleague. There was a report that, the Gauls proposing a pacification, and the senate also inclining to peace, Marcellus inflamed the people to war; but a peace appears to have been agreed upon, which the Gaesatae broke; who, passing the Alps, stirred up the Insubrians (they being thirty thousand in number, and the Insubrians more numerous by far); and proud of their strength, marched directly to Acerrae, a city seated on the north of the river Po. From thence Britomartus, king of the Gaesatae, taking with him ten thousand soldiers, harassed the country round about. News of which being brought to Marcellus, leaving his colleague at Acerrae with the foot and all the heavy arms and a third part of the horse, and carrying with him the rest of the horse and six hundred light-armed foot, marching night and day without remission, he stayed not till he came up to these ten thousand near a Gaulish village called Clastidium, which not long before had been reduced under the Roman jurisdiction. Nor had he time to refresh his soldiers or to give them rest. For the barbarians, that were then present, immediately observed his approach, and contemned him, because he had very few foot with him. The Gauls were singularly skilful in horsemanship, and thought to excel in it; and as at present they also exceeded Marcellus in number, they made no account of him. They, therefore, with their king at their head, instantly charged upon him, as if they would trample him under their horses' feet, threatening all kinds of cruelties. Marcellus, because his men were few, that they might not be encompassed and charged on all sides by the enemy, extended his wings of horse, and, riding about, drew out his wings of foot in length, till he came near to the enemy. Just as he was in the act of turning round to face the enemy, it so happened that his horse, startled with their fierce look and their cries, gave back, and carried him forcibly aside. Fearing lest this accident, if converted into an omen, might discourage his soldiers, he quickly brought his horse round to confront the enemy, and made a gesture of adoration to the sun, as if he had wheeled about not by chance, but for a purpose of devotion. For it was customary to the Romans, when they offered worship to the gods, to turn round; and in this moment of meeting the enemy, he is said to have vowed the best of the arms to Jupiter Feretrius.

Now the second part:

The king of the Gauls beholding Marcellus, and from the badges of his authority conjecturing him to be the general, advanced some way before his embattled army, and with a loud voice challenged him, and, brandishing his lance, fiercely ran in full career at him; exceeding the rest of the Gauls in stature, and with his armour, that was adorned with gold and silver and various colours, shining like lightning. These arms seeming to Marcellus, while he viewed the enemy's army drawn up in battalia, to be the best and fairest, and thinking them to be those he had vowed to Jupiter, he instantly ran upon the king, and pierced through his breastplate with his lance; then pressing upon him with the weight of his horse, threw him to the ground, and with two or three strokes more slew him. Immediately he leapt from his horse, laid his hand upon the dead king's arm and, looking up towards Heaven, thus spoke: "O Jupiter Feretrius, arbiter of the exploits of captains, and of the acts of commanders in war and battles, be thou witness that I, a general, have slain a general: I, a consul, have slain a king with my own hand, third of all the Romans; and that to thee I consecrate these first and most excellent of the spoils. Grant to us to despatch the relics of the war with the same course of fortune." Then the Roman horse joining battle not only with the enemy's horse, but also with the foot who attacked them, obtained a singular and unheard-of victory. For never before or since have so few horse defeated such numerous forces of horse and foot together. The enemies being to a great number slain, and the spoils collected, he returned to his colleague, who was conducting the war, with ill-success, against the enemies near the greatest and most populous of the Gallic cities, Milan. This was their capital, and, therefore, fighting valiantly in defence of it, they were not so much besieged by Cornelius, as they besieged him. But Marcellus having returned, and the Gaesatae retiring as soon as they were certified of the death of the king and the defeat of his army, Milan was taken. The rest of their towns, and all they had, the Gauls delivered up of their own accord to the Romans, and had peace upon equitable conditions granted to them.

I did not have the privilege to watch this battle obviously. However this account does indeed smell of inaccuracies or, more probable, plain ol' Roman propaganda :rtwno: . According to this account Marcellus went out to fight this 10,000 strong enemy force with only 600, yes, 600 light armed troops whom he spread out in a thin line. With this 600 are 1/4 of all the horsemen as Marcellus left 3/4 of the horse at Acerrae. This small force marched all through the night and day without remission and no doubt were rather fatigued once the Gauls attacked. Maybe the unknown number of Roman horsemen came to thousands and thousands. Who knows for sure, but draw your own conclusions on all this. The numbers of both sides, probably the Roman side, must have been marginalized

cmacq

11-11-2008, 03:32

A breach of self imposed protocol.

This English translation implies that the Gaulish king who comanded this Gaesatae detachment was both fully dressed for battle and mounted. That is mounted, until he was unhorsed. This fits nicely with my little half-baked theory. Maybe the Greek text should be checked to find out what it really says?

CmacQ

Power2the1

11-11-2008, 03:58

I'm game...especially if it revolves around Celts/Gauls. Whats this half baked theory of yours?

cmacq

11-11-2008, 04:10

The Greek text should be checked first.

cmacq

11-12-2008, 00:08

Paragraph 6

It seems that the Loeb Classical Library edition is a better translation.

ΜΑΡΚΕΛΛΟΣ

Plutarch, Parallel Lives
The Life of Marcellus
Ὡς δ' οὖν ἐξωμόσαντο τὴν ἀρχὴν οἱ περὶ τὸν Φλαμίνιον, διὰ τῶν καλουμένων μεσοβασιλέων ὕπατος ἀποδείκνυται Μάρκελλος, καὶ παραλαβὼν τὴν ἀρχὴν [2] ἀποδείκνυσιν αὑτῷ συνάρχοντα Γναῖον Κορνήλιον. ἐλέχθη μὲν οὖν ὡς πολλὰ συμβατικὰ τῶν Γαλατῶν <προτεινάντων>, καὶ τῆς βουλῆς εἰρηναῖα βουλευομένης, ὁ Μάρκελλος ἐξετράχυνε τὸν δῆμον ἐπὶ τὸν πόλεμον· οὐ μὴν ἀλλὰ κἂν γενομένης εἰρήνης ἀνακαινίσαι τὸν πόλεμον οἱ Γαισάται δοκοῦσι, τὰς Ἄλπεις ὑπερβαλόντες καὶ τοὺς Ἰνσόμβρους [4] ἐπάραντες· τρισμύριοι γὰρ ὄντες, προσεγένοντο πολλαπλασίοις ἐκείνοις οὖσι, καὶ μέγα φρονοῦντες εὐθὺς ἐπ' Ἀκέρρας ὥρμησαν, πόλιν ὑπὲρ ποταμοῦ Πάδου συνῳκισμένην· ἐκεῖθεν δὲ μυρίους τῶν Γαισατῶν ὁ βασιλεὺς Βριτόματος ἀναλαβὼν τὴν περὶ Πάδον χώραν ἐπόρθει. [5] ταῦτα Μάρκελλος πυθόμενος, τὸν μὲν συνάρχοντα πρὸς Ἀκέρραις ἀπέλιπε, τὴν πεζὴν καὶ βαρεῖαν ὁμοῦ πᾶσαν [6] ἔχοντα δύναμιν καὶ τῶν ἱππέων μέρος τρίτον· αὐτὸς δὲ τοὺς λοιποὺς ἱππεῖς ἀναλαβὼν καὶ τοὺς ἐλαφροτάτους τῶν ὁπλιτῶν περὶ ἑξακοσίους ἤλαυνεν, οὔθ' ἡμέρας οὔτε νυκτὸς ἀνιεὶς τὸν δρόμον, ἕως ἐπέβαλε τοῖς μυρίοις Γαισάταις περὶ τὸ καλούμενον Κλαστίδιον, Γαλατικὴν κώμην οὐ πρὸ πολλοῦ Ῥωμαίοις ὑπήκοον γεγενημένην. [7] ἀναλαβεῖν δὲ καὶ διαναπαῦσαι τὸν στρατὸν οὐχ ὑπῆρξεν αὐτῷ· ταχὺ γὰρ αἴσθησιν τοῖς βαρβάροις ἀφικόμενος παρέσχε, καὶ κατεφρονήθη, πεζῶν μὲν ὀλίγων παντάπασιν ὄντων σὺν αὐτῷ, τὸ δ' ἱππικὸν ἐν οὐδενὶ λόγῳ τῶν [8] Κελτῶν τιθεμένων. κράτιστοι γὰρ ὄντες ἱππομαχεῖν καὶ μάλιστα τούτῳ διαφέρειν δοκοῦντες, τότε καὶ πλήθει πολὺ τὸν Μάρκελλον ὑπερέβαλλον. εὐθὺς οὖν ἐπ' αὐτὸν ὡς ἀναρπασόμενοι μετὰ βίας πολλῆς καὶ δεινῶν ἀπειλῶν [9] ἐφέροντο, τοῦ βασιλέως προϊππεύοντος. ὁ δὲ Μάρκελλος, ὡς μὴ φθαῖεν αὐτὸν ἐγκυκλωσάμενοι καὶ περιχυθέντες ὀλιγοστὸν ὄντα, τὰς ἴλας ἦγε πόρρω τῶν ἱππέων καὶ παρήλαυνε, λεπτὸν ἐκτείνων τὸ κέρας, ἄχρι οὗ μικρὸν ἀπέσχε τῶν πολεμίων. [10] Ἤδη δέ πως εἰς ἐμβολὴν ἐπιστρέφοντος αὐτοῦ, συντυγχάνει τὸν ἵππον πτυρέντα τῇ γαυρότητι τῶν πολεμίων ἀποτραπέσθαι καὶ βίᾳ φέρειν ὀπίσω τὸν Μάρκελλον. [11] ὁ δὲ τοῦτο δείσας μὴ ταραχὴν ἐκ δεισιδαιμονίας τοῖς Ῥωμαίοις ἐνεργάσηται, ταχὺ περισπάσας ἐφ' ἡνίαν τῷ χαλινῷ καὶ περιστρέψας τὸν ἵππον ἐναντίον τοῖς πολεμίοις, τὸν ἥλιον [αὐτὸς] προσεκύνησεν, ὡς δὴ μὴ κατὰ τύχην, ἀλλ' ἕνεκα τούτου τῇ περιαγωγῇ χρησάμενος· [12] οὕτω γὰρ ἔθος ἐστὶ Ῥωμαίοις προσκυνεῖν τοὺς θεοὺς περιστρεφομένοις, Αὐτὸν ἤδη προσμειγνύντα τοῖς ἐναντίοις προσεύξασθαι τῷ Φερετρίῳ Διῒ τὰ κάλλιστα τῶν παρὰ τοῖς πολεμίοις ὅπλων καθιερώσειν.

My Rendering
Accordingly, Flaminius’ term of office drew to a close, because of the 'Leading Ten's' call, Marcellus was appointed (consul), and immediately after entering office he served jointly with Gnaeus Cornelius. In truth, it’s correct to say that many Senators as well as Celtic leaders proposed peace, deliberately Marcellus incited the nation to war, and actually peace came only to be reversed by the Gaesatae desire to renew the war. They crossed over the Alps and incited the Insubre, their number thrice ten thousand, joining themselves to the latter that were many more that sum, with high-spirits they hastened straight for Acerrae (Insubres), a city over the river Po. United, yet thereafter Britomartus the Gaesatae king took ten thousand and plundered the country round about the Po. Of this Marcellus learned, hence on the one hand he left behind his co-consul at Acerrae, together with a force of the heavy foot and all but a third of the horse which he took as well as about six hundred lightly-armed foot, moving out they raced and rested not one day nor night until they came upon the ten thousand Gaesatae near a place called Clastidium (Anamares). a Celtic village not long before made subject to the Romans. However, not resting his troops he quickly took the initiative, for the barbarians perceived his arrival and exhibited contempt for the foot with him which were altogether indeed small in number, these Celts placed not even a consideration of his horse. As cavalry they were considered most excellent, and assumed superiority at this time, for their greater numbers much surpassed Marcellus. Directly they came upon him as if to brush aside by great bodily force and dreadfully offered boastful threats, with their king in the fore. However Marcellus, with so few a number of companions anticipated that they could not engage without being surrounded, so he lead his troops forward with the horse on the flanks, these he extended stretching out the wings of his force to the extreme, until they were near and not far from doing battle. However, at the moment he turned to sound the charge, his horse was startled by the enemy's display of hostility and against Marcellus’ will stepped back and wheeled around. Of this he feared not to create confusion nor inspire superstition among the Romans, thereupon quickly on the reins he drew back and whirled his horse round to face the enemy, he respectively saluted the sun, and thus proclaimed it was not happenstance, rather he turned round as planned; this was the Roman custom to greet and pledge to a god, immediately before meeting the enemy he addressed in prayer Jupiter Feretrius (enforcer of oaths), and offered the most beautiful armor from among the enemy.

Translation by John Dryden
So soon as Flaminius with his colleague had resigned the consulate, Marcellus was declared consul by the presiding officers called Interrexes; and, entering into the magistracy, chose Cnaeus Cornelius his colleague. There was a report that, the Gauls proposing a pacification, and the senate also inclining to peace, Marcellus inflamed the people to war; but a peace appears to have been agreed upon, which the Gaesatae broke; who, passing the Alps, stirred up the Insubrians (they being thirty thousand in number, and the Insubrians more numerous by far); and proud of their strength, marched directly to Acerrae, a city seated on the north of the river Po. From thence Britomartus, king of the Gaesatae, taking with him ten thousand soldiers, harassed the country round about. News of which being brought to Marcellus, leaving his colleague at Acerrae with the foot and all the heavy arms and a third part of the horse, and carrying with him the rest of the horse and six hundred light-armed foot, marching night and day without remission, he stayed not till he came up to these ten thousand near a Gaulish village called Clastidium, which not long before had been reduced under the Roman jurisdiction. Nor had he time to refresh his soldiers or to give them rest. For the barbarians, that were then present, immediately observed his approach, and contemned him, because he had very few foot with him. The Gauls were singularly skilful in horsemanship, and thought to excel in it; and as at present they also exceeded Marcellus in number, they made no account of him. They, therefore, with their king at their head, instantly charged upon him, as if they would trample him under their horses' feet, threatening all kinds of cruelties. Marcellus, because his men were few, that they might not be encompassed and charged on all sides by the enemy, extended his wings of horse, and, riding about, drew out his wings of foot in length, till he came near to the enemy. Just as he was in the act of turning round to face the enemy, it so happened that his horse, startled with their fierce look and their cries, gave back, and carried him forcibly aside. Fearing lest this accident, if converted into an omen, might discourage his soldiers, he quickly brought his horse round to confront the enemy, and made a gesture of adoration to the sun, as if he had wheeled about not by chance, but for a purpose of devotion. For it was customary to the Romans, when they offered worship to the gods, to turn round; and in this moment of meeting the enemy, he is said to have vowed the best of the arms to Jupiter Feretrius.

1917 Loeb Classical Library edition, Vol. V.
But to resume the story, after Flaminius and his colleague had renounced their offices, Marcellus was appointed consul by the so called "interreges". He took the office, and appointed Gnaeus Cornelius his colleague. Now it has been said that, although the Gauls made many conciliatory proposals, and although the senate was peaceably inclined, Marcellus tried to provoke the people to continue the war. However, it would seem that even after peace was made Gaesatae renewed the war; they crossed the Alps and stirred up the Insubrians. They numbered thirty thousand themselves, and the Insubrians, whom they joined, were much more numerous. With high confidence, therefore, they marched at once to Acerrae, a city situated to the north of the river Po. From thence Britomartus the king, taking with him ten thousand of the Gaesatae, ravaged the country about the Po. When Marcellus learned of this, he left his colleague at Acerrae with all the heavy-armed infantry and a third part of the cavalry, while he himself, taking with him the rest of the cavalry and the most lightly equipped men-at arms to the number of six hundred, marched, without halting in his course day or night, until he came upon the ten thousand Gaesatae near the place called Clastidium, a Gallic village which not long before had become subject to the Romans. There was no time for him to give his army rest and refreshment, for the Barbarians quickly learned of his arrival, and held in contempt the infantry with him, which were few in number all told, and, being Gauls, made no account of his cavalry. For they were most excellent fighters on horseback, and were thought to be specially superior as such, and, besides, at this time they far outnumbered Marcellus. Immediately, therefore, they charged upon him with great violence and dreadful threats, thinking to overwhelm him, their king riding in front of them. 5 But Marcellus, that they might not succeed in enclosing and surrounding him and his few followers, led his troops of cavalry forward and tried to outflank them, extending his wing into a thin line, until he was not far from the enemy. And now, just as he was turning to make a charge, his horse, frightened by the ferocious aspect of the enemy, wheeled about and bore mostly forcibly back. 6 But he, fearing lest this should be taken as a bad omen by the Romans and lead to confusion among them, quickly reined his horse round to the left and made him face the enemy, while he himself made adoration to the sun, implying that it was not p451by chance, but for this purpose, that he had wheeled about; for it is the custom with the Romans to turn round in this way when they make adoration to the gods. And in the moment of closing with the enemy he is said to have vowed that he would consecrate to Jupiter Feretrius the most beautiful suit of armour among them.

CmacQ

cmacq

11-14-2008, 14:19

Paragraph 7

It's clear that the commander of the Gaesatae detachment was in full battle dress and on a mount. The text also indicates that the rank and file of this Gaesate detachment were well dressed for battle.

ΜΑΡΚΕΛΛΟΣ

Plutarch, Parallel Lives
The Life of Marcellus
[7] Ἐν τούτῳ δὲ κατιδὼν ὁ τῶν Γαλατῶν βασιλεὺς καὶ τεκμηράμενος ἀπὸ τῶν συμβόλων ἄρχοντα τοῦτον εἶναι, πολὺ πρὸ τῶν ἄλλων ἐξελάσας τὸν ἵππον ὑπηντίασεν, ἅμα τῇ φωνῇ προκλητικὸν ἐπαλαλάζων καὶ τὸ δόρυ κραδαίνων, ἀνὴρ μεγέθει τε σώματος ἔξοχος Γαλατῶν, καὶ πανοπλίᾳ <διαφέρων> ἐν ἀργύρῳ καὶ χρυσῷ καὶ βαφαῖς καὶ ποικίλμασι πᾶσιν ὥσπερ ἀστραπῇ [διαφέρων]. (2) στιλβούσῃ. ὡς οὖν ἐπιβλέψαντι τὴν φάλαγγα τῷ Μαρκέλλῳ ταῦτα τῶν ὅπλων ἔδοξε κάλλιστα, καὶ κατὰ τούτων ὑπέλαβε πεποιῆσθαι τῷ θεῷ τὴν κατευχήν, ὥρμησεν ἐπὶ τὸν ἄνδρα, καὶ τῷ δόρατι διακόψας τὸν θώρακα, καὶ συνεπερείσας τῇ ῥύμῃ τοῦ ἵππου, ζῶντα μὲν αὐτὸν περιέτρεψε, δευτέραν δὲ καὶ τρίτην πληγὴν ἐνσείσας εὐθὺς ἀπέκτεινεν.

My Rendering
[7] Yet meanwhile the Celtic king beheld him, and judged by his armor a proof of rank, thus to confront and claim this prize in front of the others he rushed forth his horse, while he bellowed a war-cry and shook a spear. In his prime he was the tallest and most powerfully built among the Celts, and differed by bearing a full set of armor embellished with silver and gold that flashed as lighting. (2) Then, Marcellus surveyed the enemy battle line noticing this armor was a work of beauty, and forthwith accepted the challenge to win what he had just pledged to god, rushed on up towards the man, and with his spear pierced his cuirass, and transfixed then forced him from his horse. In truth, still full of life he then turned around, and drove home a second and third thrust to kill.

Translation by John Dryden
[7] The king of the Gauls beholding Marcellus, and from the badges of his authority conjecturing him to be the general, advanced some way before his embattled army, and with a loud voice challenged him, and, brandishing his lance, fiercely ran in full career at him; exceeding the rest of the Gauls in stature, and with his armour, that was adorned with gold and silver and various colours, shining like lightning. (2) These arms seeming to Marcellus, while he viewed the enemy's army drawn up in battalia, to be the best and fairest, and thinking them to be those he had vowed to Jupiter, he instantly ran upon the king, and pierced through his breastplate with his lance; then pressing upon him with the weight of his horse, threw him to the ground, and with two or three strokes more slew him.

1917 Loeb Classical Library edition, Vol. V.
[7] Meanwhile the king of the Gauls espied him, and judging from his insignia that he was the commander, rode far out in front of the rest, and confronted him, shouting challenges and brandishing his spear. His stature exceeded that of the other Gauls, and he was conspicuous for a suit of armour which was set off with gold and silver and bright colours and all sorts of broideries; it gleamed like lightning. (2) Accordingly, as Marcellus surveyed the ranks of the enemy, this seemed to him to be the most beautiful armour, and he concluded that it was this which he had vowed to the god. He therefore rushed upon the man, and by a thrust of his spear which pierced his adversary's breastplate, and by the impact of his horse in full career, threw him, still living, upon the ground, where, with a second and third blow, he promptly killed him.

CmacQ

Power2the1

11-14-2008, 23:16

Great info cmacq! As the current Aedui/Arverni guy (F.C.) for EB the Gaesatae were the first EB2 unit to go through 'rough draft' reconceptualization by myself and these exact texts that we're discussing in this thread I used as the basis for the recommended changes. Your additional confirmation that the Gaesatae members were not entirely 100% naked helps to cements these planned changes for the Gaesatae :thumbsup:

I guess the fans now a little bit of insight on EB2 Gaesatae ~:)

cmacq

11-15-2008, 03:37

When One Follows Bread Crumbs into a Fray?

A famous spear shaker once said, ’what’s in a name, that which we call a rose, by any other name, would smell as sweet. So what’s in this name and why would the ancient Celts call these warriors Gaesatae? As mentioned many times, we know the term Gaesatae implies not a spear per se, rather its a javelin. Now, because of its design, the spear is a very good weapon when used in defense, but offensively not so much. On the other hand the javelin is of little use both on defense and offense. This is because the javelin is too short, too light, and the point way too aerodynamic to standup to the close quarter mano-a-mano blood, sweat, and tears of the melee. The only practical use for the javelin is when its tossed at the enemy, and as classical mechanic dictate, the potential of mass is converted by speed into kinetic which translates into a bodkin-esque penetration of the enemy. Once the javelin is loosed there’s no recourse, no recall; it either finds its mark or fails. Its as if the javelin were a striped down version of a spear designed to fly through the air with the greatest of ease. So...

most simply put, the javelin as a naked type of spear was only meant to be unleashed and fly at high speed, with the singular propose to penetrate the enemy’s shield wall, or whatever it happened to run into. Again, why would the Gauls use the word for the javelin, to denote these Gaesatae warriors?

Lets change gears here and do big picture-small to recap? First we have heavily armed-shield-wall w/spear Hellen-istas going old school all around on the world known to the west. The shield wall w/spears thingy made light and even heavy horse, which had been all the rage untill this point, all but useless. Next, to counter the shield wall w/spears thingy, someone invented the ‘float like a butterfly, sting like bee’ (Italics) or the ‘smash and grab’ tactics (Africa and the East). Of course the ‘smash and grab’ used the elephant. So lets say, what would the poor man’s version of a smash and grab operation look like? OK there would be no elephants; but there was tons of the disposable young and dumb, and all the Perps-in-Charge (PIC) had to do was ‘point and click.’

I'm really not saying anything about the Gaesatae being either naked or clothed, other than that may be a bit of a red herring as far as the nature of the formation was concerned. What I am implying is that when the Gaesatae were on site, there was a certain expectation as to what role they would perform in combat. I view the naked warrior thing as another issue, of which elements of the Gaesatae were often a component.

CmacQ

blitzkrieg80

11-15-2008, 06:28

The only practical use for the javelin is when its tossed at the enemy, and as classical mechanic dictate, the potential of mass is converted by speed into kinetic which translates into a bodkin-esque penetration of the enemy.

let's not forget the primary reason why this is so powerful- gravity! :eyebrows: 9.8 m/s^2 acceleration makes the small mass thing much more threatening (aerodynamics help)

Lets change gears here and do big picture-small to recap? First we have heavily armed-shield-wall w/spear Hellen-istas going old school all around on the world known to the west. The shield wall w/spears thingy made light and even heavy horse, which had been all the rage untill this point, all but useless. Next, to counter the shield wall w/spears thingy, someone invented the ‘float like a butterfly, sting like bee’ (Italics) or the ‘smash and grab’ tactics (Africa and the East). Of course the ‘smash and grab’ used the elephant. So lets say, what would the poor man’s version of a smash and grab operation look like? OK there would be no elephants; but there was tons of the disposable young and dumb, and all the Perps-in-Charge (PIC) had to do was ‘point and click.’
speaking of 'half-baked' personal theories... I gots y'all something to mention - consider this:
just around the Dark Age of around 1200BC we find Naue Swords [the first of the full-tang swords who redefined the blade- no more handle breaking at connection-point], these found primarily in Italy and Greece, but moreso in Thrace. Skirmisher tactics begin to be developed as a counter to the previously 'shocking', 'aweful' new technology of chariots, completely changing warfare, using javelins and lightly (in comparison) armored troops who have mobility and can be used against chariots in a loose configuration.

[insert gaps of pre-history... myserious 'Sea Peoples' who challenge the Mediterranean]
And later in Classical times, Thracian 'peltasts' who are known to have influenced a good deal of Europe, just happen to come from the same area, using similar tactics... The Samnites and Italic tribes who are some of the best warriors in Europe for their time, use tactics (along with technology) that make them so, using the skirmisher model... Rome becomes great because of their ability to borrow tactics and military technology from their neighbors, the jump-start being the Samnites/Italics then later Iberians then later Celts (and so on)- it is also entirely possible that having to fight such ferocious warriors also made the Romans so adept in their art at the time... Thracians and Italics are both Indo-European, yet there is something very closely linked between them... it could be simple environment (geographical, or maybe non-Indo-Europeans even) which produced similar results, but I find it very interesting (and surprisingly underestimated). The Naue sword technology and findings/deposits just happen to coincide with the skirmisher tactics developing and also with the appearance of the 'Sea Peoples'. We know from Herodotus that the Thracians were the 2nd most populous people on Earth next to the people of India! I think much is overlooked in the Thracians and the whereabouts of ancient Thrace- which included Romania besides the Balkans. The point of entry for Greek and Italic Indo-European-culture-bearers has much in common also.

[added half-baked-goodness]
ever notice how close La Tene / Halstatt foci are to Romania / Balkans - ancient Thrace? methinks it is no coincidence... if we tie together the Celtic, Thracian, Italic, Iberian skirmisher-oriented culture - indeed interesting.

cmacq

11-15-2008, 09:11

Which reminds me, no one ever answered that crazy question about the Italio-Getaic wolf-warrior connection thingy??? And, how does one say Gundestrup, without digressing?

CmacQ

Gleemonex

11-15-2008, 10:17

I find all this stuff fascinating. Great thread! I want to comment on one little aspect though:

[B]The only practical use for the javelin is when its tossed at the enemy, and as classical mechanic dictate, the potential of mass is converted by speed into kinetic which translates into a bodkin-esque penetration of the enemy. Once the javelin is losed there’s no recourse, no recall; it either finds its mark or it fails. Its as if the javelin is a striped down version of a spear that was designed to fly through the air with the greatest of ease. So...

most simply put, the javelin as a naked type of spear was only meant to be unleashed and fly at high speed, with the singular propose to penetrate the enemy’s shield wall, or whatever it happened to run into. Again, why would the Gauls use the word for the javelin, to denote these Gaesatae warriors?

One of the main benefits of the general design of a javelin (I don't know the specifics of Gallic javelin design) is that it can be made of different materials to fine-tune both balance and weight for given effects. This adaptability is almost unique among projectile weapons -- consider such disparate examples as the weighted atlatl spear, the Roman plumbata, and the modern sports javelin.

let's not forget the primary reason why this is so powerful- gravity! :eyebrows: 9.8 m/s^2 acceleration makes the small mass thing much more threatening (aerodynamics help)

Technically, gravity would only help if one were throwing a spear downhill. But its mass is a big help, easing the power transfer from the thrower's arm into the projectile itself and reducing the chance of injury for powerful and/or expert throwers.

-Glee

blitzkrieg80

11-15-2008, 18:55

Technically, gravity would only help if one were throwing a spear downhill. But its mass is a big help, easing the power transfer from the thrower's arm into the projectile itself and reducing the chance of injury for powerful and/or expert throwers.
this is true in that if the projectile isn't lobbed, there is less time for gravity to apply its attraction - which i did sort of imply (the lob) where there are many contexts (i was thinking more on long-range throws, since a straight-to-target is a pretty small range) yet it is important to ask 'where does leverage come from' in the first place, which allows one to put such force onto other objects, and the answer is gravity ~:)

Cmacq, refresh me on the the question concerning the "crazy Italio-Getaic wolf thingy" - which thread was that? sounds worth addressing, but my hippocampus hasn't survived much of my bouts from days gone by ~;)

Power2the1

11-15-2008, 22:31

The plot thickens :wacko:

I've been thinking of this scenario and the evidence behind the Gaesatae's appearance in Cisalpine Gaul. Why would the Celts spend huge sums of gold on guys from across the Alps that simply threw a javelin? That doesn't seem like a very sound investment as really anyone can be trained to do this with relative ease and marksmanship. Were their javelin skills so great as to others adopting the name Gaesatae to describe them? Telamon tells nothing of this. The Gaesum was something more than a glorified javelin and that the Gaesatae were more than naked skilled skirmishers I would conclude.

I've read that (and I wish I remember where) the gaesum wasn't the standard light weight spear or javelin but was sturdy enough to be both a melee spear and javelin, or a spear-javelin you could say. When it was carried the warrior's fingers could wrap around the shaft but his fingers could not overlap by a great amount.

If the above description was similar to what the Gaesatae carried at Telamon then I think we can reconstruct part of what happened at Telamon. The velites carried lighter javelins that were designed only to throw at a significant distance. This would have obviously given them an advantage at skirmishing and or the range at which they can hurl their javelins when compared to the than that of the Gaesatae. We are unsure who opened the battle by advancing first; the Gaesate or the velites. It probably doesn't matter though. Regardless if the Gaesate advanced or waited for the velites to come within range of their gaesum, they quickly realized their gaesum could not achieve the same range as that of the velites. Getting mauled by this, some warriors chose to run towards Roman lines and died a warrior's death, others fell back in confusion as the record states.

This is just conjecture, I've no solid proof to back much of this up but maybe it's a correct theory in some ways. The gaesum is defined as a lance, spear, and javelin so maybe the word gaesum was applied to a large variety of Gallic spear like weapons and what the Gaesatae carried was a spear-javelin type weapon suitable for all of the above throwing, being used on horseback, as well as melee.

What do I base all of this on? Well, its mainly tidbits here and there. Rather interesting is the Irish chronicle a king who reigned at the end of the 300's B.C. returned to Ireland with some warriors from the continent (Gauls?) whom he hired. These mercenaries carried spears with 'leaf shaped blades'. Apart from this we know that the name Gaesatae are thought to mean mercenary according to the Romans; we know they are mentioned as having to be hired to fight in both instances; maybe they carried spear-javelins with large leaf shaped heads to them. I admit that all that is a lot to connect but 2000+ years later such proof may not exist. Still the connection is quite strong, despite being pulled from the historian's ancient pen and not the dirt of an archaeologist.

Thats my 2 cents at last. Anyone feel free to poke holes in my idea here ~:)

desert

11-15-2008, 23:31

While this is all very interesting, my main question is still unanswered. Did they use swords at all?

cmacq

11-16-2008, 00:31

Following Bread Crumbs to Telamon

I fear we may have to follow more bread crumbs before we can provide a good answer for young master Desert's question. Nice read about Telamon, and not to draw too fine a point, however I've recently relocated the battle field and its actually not at Telamon. It seems the battle occurred at a place called Fonteblanda situated astride the Via Aurelia, almost half way between Rome and Pisae. Straight line distance Telamon is located on the coast, about 2 and half miles to the west, and is separated from the battlefield by a large bowl-shaped bay (about two miles wide). Once you compare a good translation of the battle text, with the battle field site, its very clear what actually transpired there. I think this may shine a little more light on the subject.

CmacQ

Taliferno

11-16-2008, 00:43

While this is all very interesting, my main question is still unanswered. Did they use swords at all?

I don't have the texts in front of me but I don't think they are mentioned as using them by any of the historians. But it wouldn't suprise me if archaeologists have found a few swords in the area they were said to have inhabited. Like most celtic warriors the spear (perhaps a differn't type of spear like Power2the1 says) would have been their primary weapon, with perhaps officers/champions/chiefs having a sword. In EB1 the typical Gaesatae is meant to be represented by the Uirodusios (along with various other warrior cults such as the Diberga) whilst the actual Gaesatae Unit represents champions of the tribe. There have been a few threads about this subject before so it might be worth your while doing a search.

But the discussion going on here is quite interesting and I hope it continues :book:

cmacq

11-16-2008, 02:11

I almost forgot.

Periochae: Ex libro XX
T Livius

M. Claudius Marcellus cos. occiso Gallorum Insubrium duce, Vertomaro, opima spolia rettulit.

Summaries: Book 20
Livy

My Rendering
The consul M. Claudius Marcellus felled Viridomarus, leader of the Gallic Insubres, returning with rich spoils (a term that means trophy armor and arms taked due to personal combat).

----------------------------------------------------------------------

This is another account of the Battle of Clastidium, this time in Latin. Here, Viridomarus is in Latin Vertomaro, or Britomartus/Βριτόματος in Greek. I also didn't mention that Clastidium was a village of the Anamares, and is the modern Casteggio located along the Via Aemilia (but this wasn't build until about 180 BC, so the Aemilia must have followed an earlier road). By the way Acerrae was located in the eastern end of the Po basin and Clastidium at the west end. Marcellus' route would have been about 100 miles (at 40 miles a day), so he likely force marched at least two and a half days. Finally, the Battle of Clastidium occured three years after Telamon.

CmacQ

cmacq

11-16-2008, 05:05

Bread Crumbs as Food For Thought

Right, maybe the trail doesn't go completely cold after Marcellus?

I also forgot the Cohors Gaesatorum, auxilia units, claimed by someone recent, to have been formed in Raetia, in the mid 1st century AD. I might have to research this a little more? And...
Vexillatio Gaesatorum Raetorum, again as the name implies, recruited in Raetia, serving at Great Chesters, Hadrian’s Wall, Great Britain, in the 3rd century AD. However, that unit may actually be Vexillatio Raetorum et Gaesatorum, found at Cappuck, Risingham, and Great Chesters, Great Britain, again 3rd century AD. Then Cohors I Aelia gaesatorum milliaria, attested on the diploma for Pannonia Superior, dated July 1st, AD 126. This diploma tells that this unit had men eligible for discharge, which were recruited around AD 101. The cohort may have been raised early in Hadrian’s rule, therefore the honorific title Aelius. These men discharged in AD 126 and had been part of the core round which the larger unit was formed. The Romans also had auxilia units called Gallorum, Hispanorum, Brittonum, Cananefatium, Batavorum, Illyricorum, Bosporanorum, Dacorum, Numidarum, Raetorum, Thracum, Petreorum, Vindelicorum, Cantabrorum, Galatarum, and many more. In Latin, these names do not indicate the use of a weapon type; rather they signify the tradition or ethnic affiliation of where the unit was recruited. So, the Latin use of Gaesatorum, doesn't mean a unit of Celtic spearmen. It implies 'those recruited from among the Gaesati.' Herein, the Romans seem to have usurped a Celtic tradition to supply man power to help run their war machine.

CmacQ

desert

11-16-2008, 06:06

Ok, so to be clear, there is no evidence of the Gaesatae in general using swords?

I suppose the next question is why they have swords in EB, but I'll take your advice and do some searching.

blitzkrieg80

11-16-2008, 06:12

desert, evidence is not an abundant luxury... did you happen to read anything CmacQ or Power2the1 posted? The literary references do not list equipment as if a video game player was the intended audience... some extrapolation is required, which has sufficiently been supplied.

It is a fact that almost all ancient warriors of Europe of worth (and technical / tactical savvy) fought with spear, sword, and javelin (and usually a shield) of some sort or <insert reasonable alternative to sword here for the more unusual cultures- same combination otherwise>. Lower ranks had spears because they are much cheaper to make, having only a metal tip and being much more simple in construction. [edit - i forgot, a knife would be possessed by many men if not all, which functions as an additional weapon of varying quality depending on status and culture]

Also, Taliferno describes the depiction for EB1 correctly- the Uirodusios portray the lower ranks and the Gaesatae portray the elite of what is referenced as a whole under the guise 'Gaesatae' in Roman literary accounts. The weapon system in Total War games is predetermined. 1 aspect will always be lost in a 2 weapon system representing an elite warrior with 3 or 4 weapon types.

cmacq

11-16-2008, 06:16

Ok, so to be clear, there is no evidence of the Gaesatae in general using swords?

I suppose the next question is why they have swords in EB, but I'll take your advice and do some searching.

Actually, from Paragraph 7, of Marcellus, as posted above, the Greek word I translated as 'full set of armor,' πανοπλίᾳ, actually means, 'set of [arms] and armor.' Besides a helment, graves, and cuirass; this word meant armed with a spear, sword, shield (seen as a defensive weapon), and a dirk, as well. I didn't use arms as I understood from the context of the line that the gold and silver decoration was only on the armor, so I used 'full,' to imply weapons. Maybe, I'll make that small little change, then again maybe not??? Then further, because of the context of the line, the word I translated as 'spear,' as what the Celtic king shakes, δόρυ, is in truth not a typical usage.

CmacQ

blitzkrieg80

11-16-2008, 06:37

I've noticed that 'arms and armour' are listed together a lot for 'equipment' or 'arms' or 'war-gear' in my Germanic language studies, CmacQ, so that is pretty interesting! is that a cross-cultural thing and not worth noting or is there more to this? I am intrigued... it's probably a silly question, like how hospitality, honor, fame, and gift-giving are all present among various warrior societies of 'Dark Ages'

desert

11-16-2008, 07:14

Gagh.

Note to self: be more specific when asking questions next time.

This is the end for me, then.

NeoSpartan

11-16-2008, 07:20

I really like how this thread is going... much much better than all the previous Gaesatae thread

a :balloon2: for all you fellas

cmacq

11-16-2008, 07:44

I agree, its a very welcome change, for this topic.

blitzkrieg80

11-16-2008, 07:58

much thanks to CmacQ and Power2the1 though :applause: REALLY.

the referencing and comparison of texts / quotes does much for validity, while the added interpretation by you both is just marvelously well-put, and the personal (and refreshingly accurate) translation is just uber-kudos ~;) (haha i am using that bad-German silly saying), but seriously it is reflective of your glittering and impressive armament, err... not your 'unit', skills!

Makes me sad I have no literature on my boys ~:(

Gleemonex

11-16-2008, 09:16

this is true in that if the projectile isn't lobbed, there is less time for gravity to apply its attraction - which i did sort of imply (the lob) where there are many contexts (i was thinking more on long-range throws, since a straight-to-target is a pretty small range)

Discounting wind resistance, any object thrown upwards will always return to its original height at its original speed. Gravity is particularly important for "weathervaning" though, which is where the javelin's balance and profile come into play.

yet it is important to ask 'where does leverage come from' in the first place, which allows one to put such force onto other objects, and the answer is gravity ~:)

I agree -- although this is a somewhat separate issue. Gravity does three things here:

1) It allows the thrower to use his legs in an upward shove while launching the javelin, adding a vertical velocity component to the throw and increasing the projectile's total kinetic energy.

2) It augments traction for the thrower's feet as he lunges forwards throughout the throw, easing "forward" power transfer from his legs to the javelin.

3) It assures that the projectile will fall into a desired path while maintaining the extra kinetic energy from points 1 and 2 (again, minus aerodynamic drag).

-Glee

cmacq

11-16-2008, 18:07

Gagh.

Note to self: be more specific when asking questions next time.

This is the end for me, then.

Desert,

your question was very good, it’s that many aspects this topic has historically, been extremely hard to pin down.

CmacQ

desert

11-16-2008, 18:54

The answer I was looking for was a bit different, but it no longer matters. I gift this thread to you, for the purpose of Gaesatae research.

cmacq

11-16-2008, 19:34

3) It assures that the projectile will fall into a desired path while maintaining the extra kinetic energy from points 1 and 2 (again, minus aerodynamic drag).

Aerodynamic Drag,

is a very good point. This is why the projectile point, or head, of the javelin is not shaped so much like a spear, rather it is more like a bodkin. On the one hand we have the spear; relatively long robust yet flexible wood shaft and a metal head with a pegged tang or socket, that was somewhat elongated and leave-shaped double honed blade, and a shape pointed tip; this engineered to cut, penetrate on the thrust, and parry. In contrast, the javelin typically with a short relatively thin wood shaft and a long cone-shape head with a shape pointed tip was designed only for high-velocity impact and deep penetrate. Indeed, with this said, as Power2the1 pointed out the gaesum seems to have been a bit different. The examples I’ve looked at have a short yet thick shaft and a spear-like head. There also seems to have been some type of counter weight device at the trailing end?

Here is an example from the mid 1st century BC.

http://www.kernunnos.com/culture/warriors/dress.jpe

It looks too short to be effective in the melee, but when pitched I'm sure this Guy would leave a nasty mark.

CmacQ

cmacq

11-16-2008, 20:31

Desert,

if you just want to know if the Celtic nake warrior used a sword, look -here ( http://books.google.com/books?id=LzxQ3LRDwhMC&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=caesar+celtic+spears&source=web&ots=TduDQ0rNlP&sig=oOp7zaUsumzbn7QLt6d2eXvZJH0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PPA24,M1). You may notice something on the ground near his right hand he might have called a kladyos, the Latins gladius, a word I would say today as Clay.

CmacQ

cmacq

11-17-2008, 10:22

Elmetiacos

11-17-2008, 16:06

I wouldn't go so far as to say that *gaiso- always meant a throwing weapon and never a spear for fighting hand to hand. In any event, the "spear" element in Gaesatae (<*gaisatas?) may not altogether be literal; like the Irish word fiana, which has to do with hunting in the wilds on the face of it, it may imply lack of ties to settled society, or it may be a metaphorical "obtainer by spearing" - someone who goes and takes what he wants - which seems to have an Irish cognate gataid and which ends up being partially translated as "Mercenary" by Polybius. I had a short discussion on the word over on the Continental Celtic group in which I suggested this. Others suggested in meant "Free-spearmen" as opposed to the gaisovassi, or "Vassal-spearmen". Whatever, there's nothing to suggest they'd have used swords. There's evidence from sword forms that after 700BC, the sword got less and less important as a primary weapon in Celtic warfare.

cmacq

11-17-2008, 20:33

Allegory

I'm thinking that when referring to the Gaesatae, the ancient Celts may have been speaking allegorically, which would not be that uncommon for them. As I posted above, 'most simply put, the javelin as a naked type of spear was only meant to be unleashed and fly at high speed, with the singular propose of penetrating deep into the enemy’s shield wall.'

As far as Polybius’ use of mercenary, which is where I've tracted this analogy down to, he actually used the word μιστηου; wages, pay, or hire, as opposed to; μιστηοπηορια, service as a mercenary or μιστηοπηοροι, a mercenary army. I don’t think Polybius wrote that the Gaesatae were mercenaries’ per se. Rather he stated that in this particular case at least their leadership was being paid. Furthermore I don't think the use of, 'ηὑ γαρ λεχισ ηαυτὑ τουτο σὑμαινει κυριὀσ,' was meant to mean, this being the proper meaning of the word, as posited by the Paton translation. Rather, it seems to refer to the general nature of the following statement about the persuasion exserted, upon which Polybius expaned further.

It may also be that in lines 4-6, Polybius provides a glimpse into the Gaesatae motivation for, and conduct of war. Herein he seems to relate the presentation the Insubre and Boii diplomats tailored to convince the Gaesatae to join their alliance, rather than provide a historical recount of Rome's sack by the Celts. Possibly using several converging lines of agreement to persuade; in this case the main elements were the defeat of an enemy, occupation for ransom, honor served, and a return home with the spoils of war. If this is the case of making common cause, Polybius may have been indirectly indicating that the Gaesatae of the late 3nd century shared a common marshal tradition with the early 4th century sackers of Rome.

Please see the Telamon text below.

CmacQ

Power2the1

11-18-2008, 00:00

Whatever, there's nothing to suggest they'd have used swords. There's evidence from sword forms that after 700BC, the sword got less and less important as a primary weapon in Celtic warfare.

The comment of swords becoming less important, what are you basing this on?

Sarcasm

11-18-2008, 00:18

Indeed, in Iberia, if anything Celts and Celtiberians placed more importance in swords and daggers to the detriment of protective gear for instance, the closer we get from the game's starting date. Spears remain at a constant importance throughout.

Power2the1

11-18-2008, 00:30

Before Telamon, we might take another look at Clastidium

As Plutarch tells us, the Gaesatae convinced the Insubres to renew their war with Rome, and in support 30,000 crossed over the Alps and joined their confederates in 222 BC. Although, he informed us of the name of the Gaesatae leader, writing over 250 years after the event, he unfortunately failed to offer from where the Transalpine army originated, actually provide the exact size of the Insubre contingent, nor mentioned precisely were to two forces meet. Because of the detailed report, and several citations made throughout Marcellus, Plutarch seems to have used Poseidonius, who was writing only about some 80 years after the fact. Therefore, as there wouldn’t have been any first hand survivors of the Clastidium incident still alive. In fact very few still living that had been infants when it happened. Poseidonius must have used at least one source, as well. Yet, as all the works of Poseidonius have been lost, we don't have a citation for his primary source.

Reguardless, by what Plutarch did tell us, we can assume that the Insubre army numbered between 40,000 and 50,000. Plutarch also seems to imply that the allied army combined at or very near Mediolanum (Milan), the Insubre capital. If correct, the Gaesatae and Insubre army may have totaled between 70,000 and 80,000. This was about the same size of the allied Celtic army fielded in 225 BC. From Polybius' Telamon account, we're told that this army of 70,000 was composed of 50,000 foot and 20,000 horse. Its very likely that the army of 222 BC had a similar ratio of foot to horse.

CmacQ

Remember, too, that the force at Telamon was a much smaller force of warriors intending to make the trip. The Romans, by bribing the Cisalpine Cenomani and Veneti, compelled the main Gallic invasion force to detach a portion of its army to defend the Boian, Insubrian, and other land from a possible attack by the Cenomani and the Veneti.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Polybius/2*.html#21
The Gaesatae, having collected a richly equipped and formidable force, crossed the Alps, and descended into the plain of the Po in the eighth year after the partition of Picenum. 2 The Insubres and Boii held stoutly to their original purpose; but the Veneti and Cenomani, on the Romans sending an embassy to them, decided to give them their support; 3 so that the Celtic chiefs were obliged to leave part of their forces behind to protect their territory from invasion by these tribes.

This is unfortunate for the Gauls. However, the warriors that did fight at Telamon fought strongly despite being outnumbered and without the full Gaesatae contingent:

Thus was the spirit of the Gaesatae broken down by the javelineers; 6 but the main body of the Insubres, p317Boii, and Taurisci, once the javelineers had withdrawn into the ranks and the Roman maniples attacked them, met the enemy and kept up a stubborn hand-to‑hand combat. 7 For, though being almost cut to pieces, they held their ground, equal to their foes in courage, and inferior only, as a force and individually, in their arms.

Had the Cenomani and the Veneti refused the Roman alliance, then the combined warriors of the Boii, Insubres, Taurisci, and Gaesatae could have brought their entire army to bear against the Romans at Telamon. Seeing how the Romans did not easily defeat the Gauls at Telamon, a Gallic victory is quite possible and highly likely had they been able to field the entire force.

cmacq

11-18-2008, 03:26

About the use of swords, Polybius made this observation about Telamon.

Polybius’ Histories,
Book 2, chapter 30
[8] ηοι μεν ουν τηυρεοι προσ ασπηαλειαν· ηαι δε μαψηαιραι προσ πραχιν μεγαλὑν διαπηοραν **** εψηειν· τὑν δε Γαλατικὑν καταπηοραν εψηειν μονον,

My Rendering
[8] On the one hand certainly the (Roman’s) oblong shield favored defense, yet their short swords achieved great variance **** strikes, those of the Celtic (type) were held only for the downward stroke,

Paton Translation
[8] The shields and swords of the latter were proved to be manifestly superior for defense and attack, for the Gallic sword can only deliver a cut, but cannot trust.

Shuckburgh Translation
[8] The Roman shields, it should be added, were far more serviceable for defence and their swords for attack, the Gaulish sword being only good for a cut and not for a thrust.

CmacQ

cmacq

11-18-2008, 07:06

This is a map of the Telamon Battlefield and the surrounding area.

http://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/42148/2728435070103965274S600x600Q85.jpg (http://good-times.webshots.com/photo/2728435070103965274LBOpKG)

CmacQ

Elmetiacos

11-18-2008, 12:58

The comment of swords becoming less important, what are you basing this on?
At the end of the Halstatt and beginning of the La Tene era the swords are the classic leaf bladed "Celtic Longswords" which are anything up to 4'/120cm long. By the time of the Roman conquest of Gaul and Britain - and later in Ireland - an increasing number of swords are quite short, an increasing number blunt ended and an increasing number single edged. This is indeed reflected by cmacq's Polybius quotation. While not all Celtic swords ended up as short cutting swords, there was a definite trend in this direction (and they stayed that way down to the Germanic invasions - see Lloyd Laing) so that the "typical" sword in 100BC was a lot different from the "typical" sword in 600BC. It looks more like a secondary weapon, presumably because "heroic" combat between elite fighters no longer carried the day and had given way to more disciplined ranks of spearmen.

blitzkrieg80

11-18-2008, 20:13

cmacq

11-18-2008, 20:58

I moved the Telamon text down here so that it can be looked at with greater ease.

Polybius’ Histories,
Book 2, chapter 22
[1] διόπερ ευτηεὀσ τα μεγιστα τὀν ετηνὀν· το τε τὀν Ινσομβρὀν και Βοιὀν· συμπηρονὑσαντα διεπεμποντο προσ τουσ κατα τασ Αλπεισ και περι τον Ρηοδανον ποταμον κατοικουντασ Γαλατασ· προσαγορευομενουσ δε δια το μιστηου στρατευειν Γαισατουσ; ηὑ γαρ λεχισ ηαυτὑ τουτο σὑμαινει κυριὀσ. [2] διόπερ ευτηεὀσ τα μεγιστα τὀν ετηνὀν· το τε τὀν Ινσομβρὀν και Βοιὀν· συμπηρονὑσαντα διεπεμποντο προσ τουσ κατα τασ Αλπεισ και περι τον Ρηοδανον ποταμον κατοικουντασ Γαλατασ· προσαγορευομενουσ δε δια το μιστηου στρατευειν Γαισατουσ; ηὑ γαρ λεχισ ηαυτὑ τουτο σὑμαινει κυριὀσ. [2] ᾇηὀν τοισ βασιλευσι Κονκολιτανὀι και Ανὑροεστὀι παραυτικα μεν ψηρυσιου προτειναντεσ πλὑτηοσ· εισ το μελλον δ᾿ ηυποδεικνυντεσ το μεγετηοσ τὑσ Ρηὀμαιὀν ευδαιμονιασ και το πλὑτηοσ τὀν ηυπαρχοντὀν αυτοισ αγατηὀν· εαν κρατὑσὀσι· προετρεποντο και παρὀχυνον προσ τὑν επι Ρηὀμαιουσ στρατειαν, [3] ρηαιδιὀσ δ᾿ επεισαν· ηαμα τοισ προειρὑμενοισ διδοντεσ μεν τα πιστα περι τὑσ ηαυτὀν συμμαψηιασ· αναμιμνὑσκοντεσ δε τὑσ τὀν ιδιὀν προγονὀν πραχεὀσ αυτουσ: [4] ᾇεν ηὑι ᾿κεινοι στρατευσαντεσ ου μονον ενικὑσαν μαψηομενοι Ρηὀμαιουσ· αλλα και μετα τὑν μαψηὑν εχ επηοδου κατεσψηον αυτὑν τὑν Ρηὀμὑν; [5] ᾇγενομενοι δε και τὀν ηυπαρψηοντὀν ηαπαντὀν ενκρατεισ και τὑσ πολεὀσ αυτὑσ ηεπτα μὑνασ κυριευσαντεσ· τελοσ ετηελοντι και μετα ψηαριτοσ παραδοντεσ τὑν πολιν· ατηραυστοι και ασινεισ εψηοντεσ τὑν ὀπηελειαν εισ τὑν οικειαν επανὑλτηον, [6] ηὀν ακουοντεσ ηοι περι αυτουσ ηὑγεμονεσ ηουτὀ παρὀρμὑτηὑσαν επι τὑν στρατειαν ηὀστε μὑδεποτε μὑτε πλειουσ μὑτ᾿ ενδοχοτερουσ μὑτε μαψηιμὀτερουσ ανδρασ εχελτηειν εκ τουτὀν τὀν τοπὀν τὑσ Γαλατιασ, [7] ᾇκατα δε τουσ καιρουσ τουτουσ Ρηὀμαιοι τα μεν ακουοντεσ τα δε καταμαντευομενοι το μελλον εισ πηοβουσ ενεπιπτον συνεψηεισ και ταραψηασ επι τοσουτον· [8] ᾇηὀστε ποτε μεν στρατοπεδα καταγραπηειν και σιτου και τὀν επιτὑδειὀν ποιειστηαι παρασκευασ· ποτε δε και τασ δυναμεισ εχαγειν επι τουσ ηορουσ· ηὀσ ὑδὑ παροντὀν εισ τὑν ψηὀραν τὀν πολεμιὀν· ουδεπὀ κεκινὑκοτὀν εκ τὑσ οικειασ τὀν Κελτὀν,

[9] ᾇουκ ελαψηιστα δε συνὑργὑσεν και Καρψηὑδονιοισ τουτο το κινὑμα προσ το κατασκευασαστηαι τα κατα τὑν Ιβὑριαν ασπηαλὀσ, [10] ᾇΡηὀμαιοι γαρ· ηὀσ και προστηεν ηὑμιν ειρὑται· κρινοντεσ ανανκαιοτερα ταυτα δια το προσ ταισ πλευραισ αυτὀν ηυπαρψηειν παροραν ὑνανκαζοντο τα κατα τὑν Ιβὑριαν· σπουδαζοντεσ προτερον εν καλὀι τηεστηαι τα κατα τουσ Κελτουσ, [11] ᾇδιοπερ ασπηαλισαμενοι τα προσ τουσ Καρψηὑδονιουσ δια τὀν προσ τον Ασδρουβαν ηομολογιὀν· ηυπερ ηὀν αρτι δεδὑλὀκαμεν· ενεψηειρὑσαν ηομοτηυμαδον εν τουτοισ τοισ καιροισ προσ τουσ κατα τὑν Ιταλιαν πολεμιουσ· νομιζοντεσ συμπηερειν σπηισι το διακριτηὑναι προσ τουτουσ,

My Rendering
[1] Wherefore, immediately the greatest of this nation, the Insubres and Boii, agreed to send (word) over and down from the Alps near the Rhone River, among the Celts, to call the Gaesatae by the wage to serve in war, this well put to appear legitimate. [2] On the one hand forthwith they stretched out before their two kings Concolitanus and Aneroetes a huge sum of gold, then to sway for this (enterprise) they intimated the magnitude of Rome’s wealth, and if they took the initiative the great number of benefits, if perchance they prevailed, this to urge on and further provoke them towards a campaign against the Romans. [3] In the other hand the (kings) were easily persuaded, as in advance the (emissaries) quickly give their pledge regarding themselves allied, yet to remind them of their own forefathers success. [4] Herein not only them but their (ancestors) took the field to fight and defeat the Romans, otherwise from the midst of battle they entered and held Rome fast. [5] From that point they occupied and were the entire city's master for seven months. This concluded voluntarily with favor felt so they restored the city, intact and unharmed then retaining their spoils returned home. [6] This in due course their leaders heard, and thus were spurred upon the expedition, inasmuch as never had more men fit for battle nor held in such high esteem came out of this part of Gaul. [7] However concerning this in due measure the Romans in one respect either heard or surmised their intent and thereupon largely fell into constant fear and confusion. [8] In contrast, as there was time they summoned and prepared the army, stores, and made their plans, in any event they patroled the frontier, to assertain when the Celt army would arrive.

[9] In the smallest manner the (Romans) cooperated with the Carthaginians because of the uprising and offered a treaty of assurance and security in Iberia. [10] For the Romans, as I’ve said before, were forced to choose because of their poor position and compelled to overlook Iberia, and correctly made the foremost haste against the Celts. [11] On this account they benefitted the Carthaginians through an agreement favoring Hasdrubal, as just disclosed above, at this critical moment their effort focused against their enemy in Italy, and they resolved to quickly help bring this (issue) to an end.

Paton Translation
[1] The two largest tribes, therefore, the Insubres and Boii, made a league and sent messengers to the Gauls dwelling among the Alps and near the Rhone, who are called Gaesatae because they serve for hire, this being the proper meaning of the word. [2] They urged and incited their kings Concolitanus and Aneroëstus to make war on Rome, offering them at present a large sum in gold, and as to the future, pointing out to them the great prosperity of the Romans, and the vast wealth that would be theirs if they were victorious. [3] They had no difficulty in persuading them, as, in addition to all this, they pledged themselves to be loyal allies and reminded them of the achievement of their own ancestors, [4] who had not only overcome the Romans in combat, but, after the battle, had assaulted and taken Rome itself, [5] possessing themselves of all it contained, and, after remaining masters of the city for seven months, had finally given it up of their own free will and as an act of grace, and had returned home with their spoil, unbroken and unscathed. [6] When the kings had been told all this, they became so eager for the expedition that on no occasion has that district of Gaul sent out so large a force or one composed of men so distinguished or so warlike. [7] All this time, the Romans, either hearing what was happening or divining what was coming, were in such a state of constant alarm and unrest, [8] that at times we find them busy enrolling legions and making provision of corn and other stores, at times marching to the frontier, as if the enemy had already invaded their territory, while as a fact the Celts had not yet budged from their own country.

[9] This movement of the Gauls contributed in no small measure to the rapid and unimpeded subjugation of Spain by the Carthaginians; [10] for the Romans, as I said above, regarded this matter as of more urgency, since the danger was on their flank, and were compelled to neglect the affairs of Spain until they had dealt with the Gauls. [11] They therefore secured themselves against the Carthaginians by the treaty with Hasdrubal, the terms of which I stated above, and threw their whole effort into the struggle with their enemies in Italy, considering it their main interest to bring this to a decisive conclusion.

Shuckburgh Translation
[1] Accordingly the two most extensive tribes, the Insubres and Boii, joined in the despatch of messengers to the tribes living about the Alps and on the Rhone, who from a word which means "serving for hire," are called Gaesatae. [2] To their kings Concolitanus and Aneroetes they offered a large sum of gold on the spot; and, for the future, pointed out to them the greatness of the wealth of Rome, and all the riches of which they would become possessed, if they took it. In these attempts to inflame their cupidity and induce them to join the expedition against Rome they easily succeeded. and reminded them of the campaign of their own ancestors [4] in which they had seized Rome itself, and had been masters of all it contained, as well as the city itself, for seven months; and had at last evacuated it of their own free will, and restored it by an act of free grace, returning unconquered and scatheless with the booty to their own land. These arguments made the leaders so eager for the expedition, that there never at any other time came from that part of Gaul a larger host, or one consisting of more notable warriors. Meanwhile, the Romans, informed of what was coming, partly by report and partly by conjecture, were in such a state of constant alarm and excitement, that they hurriedly enrolled legions, collected supplies, and sent out their forces to the frontier, as though the enemy were already in their territory, before the Gauls had stirred from their own lands.

[9] It was this movement of the Gauls that, more than anything else, helped the Carthaginians to consolidate their power in Iberia. For the Romans, as I have said, looked upon the Celtic question as the more pressing one of the two, as being so near home; and were forced to wink at what was going on in Iberia, in their anxiety to settle it satisfactorily first. Having, therefore, put their relations with the Carthaginians on a safe footing by the treaty with Hasdrubal, which I spoke of a short time back, they gave an undivided attention to the Celtic war, convinced that their interest demanded that a decisive battle should be fought with them.

CmacQ

Elmetiacos

11-18-2008, 22:43

So you're negating your own previous statement, which said swords were not used (i admit you were more vague, so this is probably an unfair summation, but we all know your implication) with the argument that they DID use swords but a 'shortsword' is no sword to a Celt? your argument is that swords were 'secondary' as opposed to 'primary'? that is common sense to any warrior who has depth perception, and thus uses a far-reaching weapon (spear) before using their close-range weapon (sword) on the line. most warriors throughout time have used spears as 'primary' and it may well be some ancient styles (such as the Romans of their late Republic) were too lazy to carry the extra piece, but that is hardly an argument for no sword on those who carried a full array...

so seriously now, correct me if i am wrong, but from what I gather, you are suggesting that all Celtic units use spears (and there would be no variety to the unit roster) just so we know they used a spear versus thinking otherwise that they would not touch one?.
I only said swords shouldn't be used by the Gaesatae unit, not by any Gaulish or British unit whatsoever! At present all Gaesatae use swords and nothing else, which I doubt was the case. Ideally, you'd want better equipped units to have both sword and spear and to switch as appropriate, but the game engine doesn't really let you do that. Gaesatae and Cingetos type units should have only a spear and a pre-charge javelin. You'd expect skirmish infantry, as open order troops, to be more likely to use swords, axes or daggers when forced to fight hand to hand. Skirmish cavalry and charioteers I'd imagine would also be sword users.

Power2the1

11-19-2008, 00:50

At the end of the Halstatt and beginning of the La Tene era the swords are the classic leaf bladed "Celtic Longswords" which are anything up to 4'/120cm long. By the time of the Roman conquest of Gaul and Britain - and later in Ireland - an increasing number of swords are quite short, an increasing number blunt ended and an increasing number single edged. This is indeed reflected by cmacq's Polybius quotation. While not all Celtic swords ended up as short cutting swords, there was a definite trend in this direction (and they stayed that way down to the Germanic invasions - see Lloyd Laing) so that the "typical" sword in 100BC was a lot different from the "typical" sword in 600BC. It looks more like a secondary weapon, presumably because "heroic" combat between elite fighters no longer carried the day and had given way to more disciplined ranks of spearmen.

Ah ok, I follow what you are saying here. Halstatt Celtic swords appear similar to a gladius kinda; shorter blades with a sharp point used for both cutting and stabbing.

The evidence I know of in the later La Tene period points to the shorts swords being supplanted, in the upper circles of warriors, by the long slashing sword (which gets ridiculously long eventually). The tradition of the short sword was regulated to more of a status object as far as I can tell, but in Ireland you are correct in saying the swords there do appear to be short sword types but these are mainly (not always) most prevalent in the 0 A.D-200 A.D. time frame (at least the little bit of info I've read). However I agree short swords could have been mainly used by Celts that did not have the mean to possess a high status long slashing sword. Spearmen may have indeed been more prevalent by force, not by design, due to the politics of the later La Tene period and the great numbers of bondsmen attached to these leaders, chiefs, kings, etc... and it take no great stretch of the imagination to envision these very chiefs, jealously guarding and ensuring their place in power, using their wealth and influence to control the weapons and kept tabs on the distribution of these long swords. Its also not too far off the mark to envision that the 'common warrior' and everyone else was 'stuck' with using a spear. I cannot argue too much with this because there was a pattern mirroring this in Gaul at the time and, probably to your surprise, Elmetiacos (Am I close in translating your name as 'the favored one' or 'the good one' in Gaulish?) the Aedui and Arverni in EB2 have already began heading down this road. Theres plenty of new things up and coming for the Gallic factions

Still, with the Gaesatae I think the spear they used was more of a dual use spear-javelin that could be used for both depending on the situation. That would be their primary weapon. I do believe they trained with swords too, both long and short as well (wood can break, metal not so much) an axes too, heck, maybe they had Gallic ninja stars but we may never know *exactly* what they did fight with. Maybe its safe to say they used a little bit of everything but with a special focus on the spear-javelin and the way of fighting involved with it.

The opinions and views within this thread are so great all around, that even Caesar is pleased :rtwyes:

EDIT:

Gaesatae and Cingetos type units should have only a spear and a pre-charge javelin.
Just one pre charge javelin, what are you thinking!? No, this is exactly how certain upper end Gallic units are/and will be concepted, but with an additional long sword to fall back upon depending on the unit. I also tend to follow the train of thought, based on the few instances of 'pre battle' Celtic descriptions (for example Magaba and Olympus 189 B.C. where swords appeared to be the only weapon) that these upper end warriors, and the naked types, would be consumed with battle lust and the frenzy that is known to overcome them just before battle. This nature does not equate, in my mind, spending all day lobbing javelins from a distance...they rather leave that style of war to the young, the inexperienced, and the skirmishers, and rush into melee.

cmacq

11-19-2008, 02:57

Just one pre charge javelin, what are you thinking!? No, this is exactly how certain upper end Gallic units are/and will be concepted, but with an additional long sword to fall back upon depending on the unit. I also tend to follow the train of thought, based on the few instances of 'pre battle' Celtic descriptions (for example Magaba and Olympus 189 B.C. where swords appeared to be the only weapon) that these upper end warriors, and the naked types, would be consumed with battle lust and the frenzy that is known to overcome them just before battle. This nature does not equate, in my mind, spending all day lobbing javelins from a distance...they rather leave that style of war to the young, the inexperienced, and the skirmishers, and rush into melee.

This was something I noticed as well. I've yet to come across an example of the Gaesatae using the javelin; or even using a spear as a javelin.

CmacQ

Elmetiacos

11-19-2008, 03:15

There's a Roman author, can't remember who, who refers to 'the Gaul with his two spears' presumably one for throwing and one for fighting with and there's the typical early Irish fighting involving throwing a javelin or dart (gá-ín, "spearling" <*gaisicnos for an even smaller spear?) but the typical footman and the Gaesatae don't want to be given a load of longer ranged spears to throw, or that will conflict with Polybius and/or Watling Street where the Celtic warriors lose mainly because they get "out-javelined" by the Romans.

blitzkrieg80

11-19-2008, 03:41

cmacq

11-19-2008, 08:13

More Bread Crumbs

It looks as if I was right about Polybius' comments the Insubre and Boii made to provoke the Gaesatae of the Rhone region, about appealing to a common military tradition. What the lines below indirectly say is that the Gaulish invasion of northern Italy was it part due to the Gaesatae. Additionally, Strabo wrote that the later sack of Rome in 390/387 BC was entirely a result of a Gaesatae attack. Thus we can assume from Livy's History of Rome, the Gaesatae king that destroyed the Roman army at Allia was named Bennus.

Στράβων Γεωγραφικά

Strabo’s Geography
Book 5

Chapter 6
Τὸ μὲν οὖν ἀρχαῖον͵ ὥσπερ ἔφην͵ ὑπὸ Κελτῶν περιῳκεῖτο τῶν πλείστων ὁ ποταμός. μέγιστα δ΄ ἦν τῶν Κελτῶν ἔθνη Βόιοι καὶ Ἴνσουβροι καὶ οἱ τὴν Ρωμαίων ποτὲ ἐξ ἐφόδου καταλαβόντες Σένονες μετὰ Γαισατῶν. τούτους μὲν οὖν ἐξέφθειραν ὕστερον τε λέως Ρωμαῖοι͵ τοὺς δὲ Βοΐους ἐξήλασαν ἐκ τῶν τόπων.

My Rendering
Thus indeed formerly even as has been said, either side of the (Po) river was primarily controlled by the Celts, the greatest nation of these Celts were the Boii and Insubres, which once approached and seized hold of Rome together with the Senones behind the Gaesatae, in fact of the later two thereafter the Romans utterly ruined, however the Boii were driven out from this region.

Hamilton Translation
[1] Formerly, as we have said, the district next this river was chiefly inhabited by Celts. The principal nations of these Celts were the Boii, the Insubri, and the Senones and Gaesatae, who in one of their incursions took possession of Rorne. The Romans afterwards entirely extirpated these latter,

Jones Translation
[1] In early times, then, as I was saying, the country round about the Padus was inhabited for the most part by the Celti. And the largest tribes of the Celti were the Boii, the Insubri, and those Senones who, along with the Gaesatae, once seized the territory of the Romans at the first assault. These two peoples, it is true, were utterly destroyed by the Romans later on, but the Boii were merely driven out of the regions they occupied;

Chapter 10
Οἱ δ΄ ἐντὸς τοῦ Πάδου κατέχουσι μὲν ἅπασαν ὅσην ἐγκυκλοῦται τὰ Ἀπέννινα ὄρη πρὸς τὰ Ἄλπεια μέχρι Γενούας καὶ τῶν Σαβάτων. κατεῖχον δὲ Βόιοι καὶ Λίγυες καὶ Σένονες καὶ Γαιζᾶται τὸ πλέον· τῶν δὲ Βοΐων ἐξελαθέντων͵ ἀφανισθέντων δὲ καὶ τῶν Γαι ζατῶν καὶ Σενόνων͵ λείπεται τὰ Λιγυστικὰ φῦλα καὶ τῶν Ρωμαίων αἱ ἀποικίαι.

My Rendering
However indeed the Po valley was entire held fast as vast on one side from the Apennines mountains to the Alps then as far as Genoa and the Sabates, this the Boii, Ligures, Senones and Gaesatae controlled, thereafter the Boii were banished, furthermore this land and the Senones were despoiled, these tribes ceased and the Romans.(made) it a colony.

Hamilton Translation
Between the Apennines and the Alps as far as Genoa and the Vada-Sabbatorum. The greater part was inhabited by the Boii, the Ligurians, the Scnones, and Gaesatae; but after the depopulation of the Boii, and the destruction of the Gaesatae and Senones, the Ligurian tribes and the Roman colonies alone remained.

Jones Translation
[10] But the Cispadane peoples occupy all that country which is encircled by the Apennine Mountains towards the Alps as far as Genua and Sabata. The greater part of the country used to be occupied by the Boii, Ligures, Senones, and Gaesatae; but since the Boii have been driven out, and since both the Gaesatae and the Senones have been annihilated,

----------------------------------------------
Unfortunately, I don’t know how actuate the Hamilton Translation is. I’ll have to check and see if I can find a copy of the Greek text. Does anyone know of an online copy of Strabo’s Geography, Book 5; in the Greek text. Never mind, all I have to do is translate it.

CmacQ

Elmetiacos

11-19-2008, 13:48

Sounds like some agreement :grin: nice discussion, everyone.

PS - i totally agree that the 'stopping to aim and throw a javelin' doesn't mesh well with the whole naked 'berserkr' mentality which I always thought was kind of odd. methinks the standard issue types who were not naked but really good at using their spear, earned the name. seriously now, what kind of deranged battle-frenzied warrior stops mid-stride to make a calculated throw? ~;p
Reading Polybius, the Gaesatae don't act like frenzied berserkers; they only go crazy and charge when they're taking heavy losses to the Roman skirmishers and realise they can't win; some of them give up and run and some of them decide to go out fighting (with the blunt ended cutting swords I described above) Until that point, they appear to be standing and awaiting orders in front of the rest of Celtic formation.

bovi

11-19-2008, 21:47

You don't really need to stop and make an aimed shot, you can throw a javelin while running. With some loss of balance of course, but it should be far enough away from the enemy that you can draw your primary weapon with ease before contact; javelineers today can throw over 100 meters, so I presume that back in the day they could easily throw 60 meters, leaving many seconds to recover and draw the weapon.

cmacq

11-21-2008, 06:43

BCA

I've noticed several interesting patterns. I’ve found only three Greek authors that mentioned the Gaesatae. These place them; first leading the Gaulish invasion of northern Italy in 391 BC, next at the Battle of Allia in 387 BC, next some evidence of their presence by another name in the invasion of Greece and Anatolia between 281-279 BC, then followed by the Battle of Telamond in 225 BC, the Battle of Clastidium in 222 BC, and indirectly with the subjection of the last independent Celtic state in northern Italy in 192 BC. However, during this time frame not Latin author one, ever mentioned them by name. Why? This is very strange because although the Latins often mentioned the same event as the Greek authors, where the Gaesatae were cited as being there, there is no mention of them. Why? Strangely, when the Gaesatae were finally mentioned by the Latin sources it has to do with auxiliary military unites recruited from the late first century BC to the 4th century AD.

This covers a period of roughly 750 years, no? I know, I know 200+ years actual, and the rest of the time GINO (Gaesatae In Name Only).

My question now is; how many times were the Gaesatae actually mentioned by name, and in what work does this mention occur? In other words have I missed something? Trust me, this is going somewhere, and I’ve not even got to the unclad warrior thing, yet.

Bread Crumb Assessment

CmacQ

Elmetiacos

11-21-2008, 14:21

Hmm... is there a Latin term that might be equivalent?

cmacq

11-21-2008, 14:40

As provided on the first page of this thread the Latin reference is Gaesatorum, which seems to indicate a large non provincial district, possibly the Alpine region from western France to eastern Austria, where this military tradition seemed to have survived, in some form, well into the AD 300's.

CmacQ

Elmetiacos

11-21-2008, 15:07

cmacq

11-22-2008, 05:53

I think I might have another link between the 225 BC Gaesatae campaign against the Romans and the 387 BC Sack of Rome campaign. In 387 BC the allied Etruscan city of Clusium was the flash point that provoked the 1st Gallic War, due to the Roman delegates killing a Celtic nobleman while in the process of negotiating a cease fire. Then a short 162 years later the Celtic army that included the Gaesatae, assembled near the middle of the Po valley, seems to have purposefully slipped by a Roman army stationed in the north, it could very well have defeated, only to show up apparently unexpectedly on Clusium's door step presumably plundering the entire country side.

By the way Clusium sets astride the Via Cassia, which was built over an earlier Etruscan road. From here this particular road runs south through the hills of the upper Tiber valley only to empty out about 20 miles from Rome. Right, not that far from the site of the battle of Allia, which was a decisive, although not lasting Celtic victory. Yet even more interestingly, after the Celts soundly ambush and defeat the first Roman army at Faesulae, again in 225 BC, they did not withdraw and turn north to safety. Rather it seems they returned south, again to the area around Clusium and its junction with the Via Cassia.

I gleamed this little tidbit from the fact that because of the Roman road network, in order to get Telamon in the given time frame from the south, one would have to proceed south back to the vicinity of Clusium, get on the Via Cassia going southwest towards Rome, then near Orvieto they made contact with the scouts from a second Roman army closing from the north. So they desided to go home and turned on a road that ran west just north of Lake Bolsena, till they came to the coastal road; the Via Aurelia. To me this indicates that the intended target of the 225 BC campaign was, as it had been in 387 BC, the Roman capital.

So, was the intent of 225 BC campaign designed to duplicate the results of the 387 BC? If this is the case, was this plan formulated because the Celts believed the Romans had committed an egregious breech of their Qui tam? So, the Gaesatae were petitioned as they had been in 387 BC, to seek justice and provide a heightened degree of arbitration through the force of arms?

CmacQ

cmacq

11-22-2008, 08:24

Case in Point
An Introduction

Livy's History of Rome

Book 5
Chapter 35
alia subinde manus Cenomanorum Etitouio duce uestigia priorum secuta eodem saltu fauente Belloueso cum transcendisset Alpes, ubi nunc Brixia ac Uerona urbes sunt locos tenuere. [2] Libui considunt post hos Salluuiique, prope antiquam gentem Laeuos Ligures incolentes circa Ticinum amnem. Poenino deinde Boii Lingonesque transgressi cum iam inter Padum atque Alpes omnia tenerentur, Pado ratibus traiecto non Etruscos modo sed etiam Umbros agro pellunt; intra Appenninum tamen sese tenuere. [3] tum Senones, recentissimi aduenarum, ab Utente flumine usque ad Aesim fines habuere. hanc gentem Clusium Romamque inde uenisse comperio: id parum certum est, solamne an ab omnibus Cisalpinorum Gallorum populis adiutam. [4] Clusini nouo bello exterriti, cum multitudinem, cum formas hominum inuisitatas cernerent et genus armorum, audirentque saepe ab iis cis Padum ultraque legiones Etruscorum fusas, quamquam aduersus Romanos nullum eis ius societatis amicitiaeue erat, nisi quod Ueientes consanguineos aduersus populum Romanum non defendissent, legatos Romam qui auxilium ab senatu peterent misere. [5] de auxilio nihil impetratum; legati tres M. Fabi Ambusti filii missi, qui senatus populique Romani nomine agerent cum Gallis ne a quibus nullam iniuriam accepissent socios populi Romani atque amicos oppugnarent. [6] Romanis eos bello quoque si res cogat tuendos esse; sed melius uisum bellum ipsum amoueri si posset, et Gallos nouam gentem pace potius cognosci quam armis.

My Rendering
Thereupon another band from the Maine led by Elitovius followed the former route always respectful of Bellovesus’ favor, crossed over the Alps, to hold fast what are now the cities of Brescia and Verona. [2] These Libui and afterwards the Saluvii settled, near the Laevi an ancient tribe of the Liguri who dwelt around the Ticinus River. Thereafter the Boii with the Lingones occupied the entirely (area) from the Po valley to the Alps; they pierced the Po with rafts, advancing to drive out not only the Etruscans but the Umbrians as well. Nonetheless they kept back from entering the Apennines. [3] Then the Senones immigrated shortly thereafter, from the Utis River to the Marche they carried their border, and when this tribe set upon Clusium they learned of Rome, but it was undetermined, if they (acted) alone or were assisted by the other Gallic Cisalpine peoples. [4] The people of Clusium were terrified by this new war, given the multitude, these people’s unfamiliar fashions and sight of their weapons, hearing often that on either side of the Po Etruria's armies fled (from them), they had not been inclined towards Rome in frienship or alliance, so when the Veii were pressed they did not defended their kin but instead turned to the people of Rome, and sent ambassadors to (ask for) the Senate's help. [5] From this they affected no aid; however to litigate three sons of M. Fabius Ambustus were sent, in the name of the Roman people to inform the Gauls not to injure their allies or Rome would be inclined to intervene. [6] Although of this matter the Romans were largely united; yet they perceived ill so they refrained from war, and offered peace to learn about the weapons of this new tribe of Gauls.

Roberts Translation
Subsequently another body, consisting of the Cenomani, under the leadership of Elitovius, followed the track of the former and crossed the Alps by the same pass, with the goodwill of Bellovesus. They had their settlements where the cities of Brixia and Verona now stand. The Libui came next and the Saluvii; they settled near the ancient tribe of the Ligurian Laevi, who lived about the Ticinus. Then the Boii and Lingones crossed the Pennine Alps, and as all the country between the Po and the Alps was occupied, they crossed the Po on rafts and expelled not only the Etruscans but the Umbrians as well. They remained, however, north of the Apennines. Then the Senones, the last to come, occupied the country from the Utis to the Aesis. It was this last tribe, I find, that came to Clusium, and from there to Rome; but it is uncertain whether they came alone or helped by contingents from all the Cisalpine peoples. The people of Clusium were appalled by this strange war, when they saw the numbers, the extraordinary appearance of the men, and the kind of weapons they used, and heard that the legions of Etruria had been often routed by them on both sides of the Po. Although they had no claim on Rome, either on the ground of alliance or friendly relations, unless it was that they had not defended their kinsmen at Veii against the Romans, they nevertheless sent ambassadors to ask the senate for assistance. Active assistance they did not obtain. The three sons of M. Fabius Ambustus were sent as ambassadors to negotiate with the Gauls and warn them not to attack those from whom they had suffered no injury, who were allies and friends of Rome, and who, if circumstances compelled them, must be defended by the armed force of Rome. They preferred that actual war should be avoided, and that they should make acquaintance with the Gauls, who were strangers to them, in peace rather than in arms.

blitzkrieg80

11-22-2008, 08:52

Intriguing... don't let up :yes:

cmacq

11-23-2008, 00:34

Against the Laws of Nations or Courage and the Sword are All Mighty

Livy's History of Rome

Book 5
Chapter 36
mitis legatio, ni praeferoces legatos Gallisque magis quam Romanis similes habuisset. quibus postquam mandata ediderunt in concilio [Gallorum] datur responsum, [2] etsi nouum nomen audiant Romanorum, tamen credere uiros fortes esse quorum auxilium a Clusinis in re trepida sit imploratum; [3] et quoniam legatione aduersus se maluerint quam armis tueri socios, ne se quidem pacem quam illi adferant aspernari, si Gallis egentibus agro, quem latius possideant quam colant Clusini, partem finium concedant; aliter pacem impetrari non posse. [4] et responsum coram Romanis accipere uelle et si negetur ager, coram iisdem Romanis dimicaturos, ut nuntiare domum possent quantum Galli uirtute ceteros mortales praestarent. [5] quodnam id ius esset agrum a possessoribus petere aut minari arma Romanis quaerentibus et quid in Etruria rei Gallis esset, cum illi se in armis ius ferre et omnia fortium uirorum esse ferociter dicerent, accensis utrimque animis ad arma discurritur et proelium conseritur. [6] ibi iam urgentibus Romanam urbem fatis legati contra ius gentium arma capiunt. nec id clam esse potuit cum ante signa Etruscorum tres nobilissimi fortissimique Romanae iuuentutis pugnarent; tantum eminebat peregrina uirtus. [7] quin etiam Q. Fabius, euectus extra aciem equo, ducem Gallorum, ferociter in ipsa signa Etruscorum incursantem, per latus transfixum hasta occidit; spoliaque eius legentem Galli agnouere, perque totam aciem Romanum legatum esse signum datum est. [8] omissa inde in Clusinos ira, receptui canunt minantes Romanis. erant qui extemplo Romam eundum censerent; uicere seniores, ut legati prius mitterentur questum iniurias postulatumque ut pro iure gentium uiolato Fabii dederentur. [9] legati Gallorum cum ea sicut erant mandata exposuissent, senatui nec factum placebat Fabiorum et ius postulare barbari uidebantur; sed ne id quod placebat decerneretur in tantae nobilitatis uiris ambitio obstabat. [10] itaque ne penes ipsos culpa esset cladis forte Gallico bello acceptae, cognitionem de postulatis Gallorum ad populum reiciunt; ubi tanto plus gratia atque opes ualuere ut quorum de poena agebatur tribuni militum consulari potestate in insequentem annum crearentur. [11] quo facto haud secus quam dignum erat infensi Galli bellum propalam minantes ad suos redeunt. tribuni militum cum tribus Fabiis creati Q. Sulpicius Longus Q. Seruilius quartum P. Cornelius Maluginensis.

My Rendering
A simple legation, if not for an ill-tempered delegation conduced more Gaul like than Roman. [2] After they brought forth their charge the [Gallic] council gave this answer, ‘although only recently has the name of Rome been heard, nevertheless we trust you are men of strong courage whose help Clusium invoked in their emergency, [3] moreover whereas you choose to protect your ally, surely we do not spurn those that bring peace, inasmuch as the Gauls need land, of that tillable held or owned by Clusium, concede a share to be our border, otherwise it would be impossible to achieve peace.' [4] As well they wanted the Romans present if Clusium’s reply for land was negative, present likewise these Romans for the (impending) fight, so at home they could recount how much the Gauls surpassed other mortals in courage. [5] The (Romans) inquired by what right to land, did they seek to take by force from its owner or for what reason did armed Gauls intrude Etruria and seek Rome out. They answered back that it was by the right of arms, as courage and the sword are all mighty, inflamed both sides flew to arms rushing pell mell to join battle. [6] There now the envoys (sent) from Rome to speak were drawn in, against the laws of nations and seized their weapons, for it was no secret that together they stood before the standards of Etruria, three distinguished Roman youths firmly giving battle, so great was the valor of these foreigners that they stood out. [7] Yet even now Quintus Fabius, in the fore charged, the Gallic leader courageously rushed into the Etruscans to strike down their standard, and with a large spear he transfixed and took him down. They recognized him despoil the Gual, and through the haze of battle all keenly knew the Roman envoy by their convention.

[8] (At this point) they set aside their ire for Clusium, threatened the Romans, and sounded their withdrawal. Immediately they wanted to fly off in anger to Rome, yet wiser heads prevailed. As first they sent an envoy to protest this unlawful act and demanded they surrender these dishonored Fabians, according to the laws of nations. [9] When as it were the Gallic delegation demanded they be brought forth, the Senate was not pleased with the Fabian’s deed and recognized the barbarian righteous claim, yet they were not satisfied to oppose their fame and hinder these very powerful nobles. [10] Therefore they would not be at fault if by chance the Gauls choose the calamity of war. Knowing the Gallic demand the people responded, whereby they very much preferred (otherwise), yet they had been elected Consular Tribunes and the only recourse available was to seek satisfaction the following year. [11] Whereas they reacted as expected and were fittingly enraged, publically the Gauls threatened war, and then returned to their own. (The other) Consular Tribunes elected with the Fabians were Q. Sulpicius Longus, P. Cornelius Maluginensis, and Q. Servilius the fourth time.

Roberts Translation
A peaceable enough mission, had it not contained envoys of a violent temper, more like Gauls than Romans. After they had delivered their instructions in the council of the Gauls, the following reply was given: `Although we are hearing the name of Romans for the first time, we believe nevertheless that you are brave men, since the Clusines are imploring your assistance in their time of danger. Since you prefer to protect your allies against us by negotiation rather than by armed force, we on our side do not reject the peace you offer, on condition that the Clusines cede to us Gauls, who are in need of land, a portion of that territory which they possess to a greater extent than they can cultivate. On any other conditions peace cannot be granted. We wish to receive their reply in your presence, and if territory is refused us we shall fight, whilst you are still here, that you may report to those at home how far the Gauls surpass all other men in courage.' The Romans asked them what right they had to demand, under threat of war, territory from those who were its owners, and what business the Gauls had in Etruria. The haughty answer was returned that they carried their right in their weapons, and that everything belonged to the brave. Passions were kindled on both sides; they flew to arms and joined battle. Thereupon, contrary to the law of nations, the envoys seized their weapons, for the Fates were already urging Rome to its ruin. The fact of three of the noblest and bravest Romans fighting in the front line of the Etruscan army could not be concealed, so conspicuous was the valour of the strangers. And what was more, Q. Fabius rode forward at a Gaulish chieftain, who was impetuously charging right at the Etruscan standards, ran his spear through his side and slew him. Whilst he was in the act of despoiling the body the Gauls recognised him, and the word was passed through the whole army that it was a Roman ambassador. Forgetting their rage against the Clusines, and breathing threats against the Romans, they sounded the retreat.

Some were for an instant advance on Rome. The older men thought that ambassadors should first be sent to Rome to make a formal complaint and demand the surrender of the Fabii as satisfaction for the violation of the law of nations. After the ambassadors had stated their case, the senate, whilst disapproving of the conduct of the Fabii, and recognising the justice of the demand which the barbarians made, were prevented by political interests from placing their convictions on record in the form of a decree in the case of men of such high rank. In order, therefore, that the blame for any defeat which might be incurred in a war with the Gauls might not rest on them alone, they referred the consideration of the Gauls' demands to the people. Here personal popularity and influence had so much more weight that the very men whose punishment was under discussion were elected consular tribunes for the next year. The Gauls regarded this procedure as it deserved to be regarded, namely, as an act of hostility, and after openly threatening war, returned to their people. The other consular tribunes elected with the Fabii were Q. Sulpicius Longus, Q. Servilius--for the fourth time and P. Cornelius Maluginensis.

CmacQ

cmacq

11-24-2008, 09:29

Livy's History of Rome

Book 5
Chapter 37
cum tanta moles mali instaret--adeo occaecat animos fortuna, ubi uim suam ingruentem refringi non uolt--ciuitas quae aduersus Fidenatem ac Ueientem hostem aliosque finitimos populos ultima experiens auxilia dictatorem multis tempestatibus dixisset, [2] ea tunc inuisitato atque inaudito hoste ab Oceano terrarumque ultimis oris bellum ciente, nihil extraordinarii imperii aut auxilii quaesiuit. [3] tribuni quorum temeritate bellum contractum erat summae rerum praeerant, dilectumque nihilo accuratiorem quam ad media bella haberi solitus erat, extenuantes etiam famam belli, habebant. [4] interim Galli postquam accepere ultro honorem habitum uiolatoribus iuris humani elusamque legationem suam esse, flagrantes ira cuius impotens est gens, confestim signis conuolsis citato agmine iter ingrediuntur. [5] ad quorum praetereuntium raptim tumultum cum exterritae urbes ad arma concurrerent fugaque agrestium fieret, Romam se ire magno clamore significabant quacumque ibant, equis uirisque longe ac late fuso agmine immensum obtinentes loci. [6] sed antecedente fama nuntiisque Clusinorum, deinceps inde aliorum populorum, plurimum terroris Romam celeritas hostium tulit, [7] quippe quibus uelut tumultuario exercitu raptim ducto aegre ad undecimum lapidem occursum est, qua flumen Allia, Crustuminis montibus praealto defluens alueo, haud multum infra uiam Tiberino amni miscetur. [8] iam omnia contra circaque hostium plena erant et nata in uanos tumultus gens truci cantu clamoribusque uariis horrendo cuncta compleuerant sono.

My Rendering
With so large a weight of bad luck they went great lengths to blind themselves, whereas their strength could not check the blow. (As when) the state opposed Fidenae, Veii, and other hostile nations more remote several times they briefly required the aid of a dictator. [2] At this time while not knowing yet they heard rumors that as far as the edge of earth’s Ocean the enemy stirred for war. Nothing extraordinary was authorized or sought. [3] The Tribunes whose rashness caused this war presided over its preparation; they choose not to give due diligence and amassed half of what was customary for war, even more they underestimated the reports received about the enemy.

[4] Meanwhile after the Gauls received (word) that (Rome's) highest office was held by the violators of human law they ceased playing diplomacy, an unbridled race they were inflamed by wrath, and immediately snatched up their standards and briskly began their advance. [5] As this tumult hurriedly passed terror struck and those armed flocked to walled towns as the peasantry was forced to flee, in great anger Rome was shouted to signify where they went, their cavalry fanned out to hold each place and protect the endless multitude (of foot) that march. [6] However reports from Clusium passed in succession to other peoples, multiplied Rome’s terror when the enemy quickly recombined. [7] As expected at this moment they hurriedly raised an army and hastily lead it to the eleventh mile to meet them, (near where) the Allia River, cut a very deep channel from the Crustuminian Mountains, not far from where it mingles with the Tiber River. [8] Here in full opposition the entire enemy came to be both a growing swarm and boastful tumult of clamorous sound that was horridly diverse and utterly filled with noise.

Roberts Translation
To such an extent does Fortune blind men's eyes when she will not have her threatened blows parried, that though such a weight of disaster was hanging over the State, no special steps were taken to avert it. In the wars against Fidenae and Veii and other neighbouring States, a Dictator had on many occasions been nominated as a last resource. But now when an enemy, never seen or even heard of before, was rousing up war from ocean and the furthest corners of the world, no recourse was had to a Dictator, no extraordinary efforts were made. Those men through whose recklessness the war had been brought about were in supreme commands as tribunes, and the levy they raised was not larger than had been usual in ordinary campaigns, they even made light of the resorts as to the seriousness of the war.

Meantime the Gauls learnt that their embassy had been treated with contempt, and that honours had actually been conferred upon men who had violated the law of nations. Burning with rage--as a nation they cannot control their passions--they seized their standards and hurriedly set out on their march. At the sound of their tumult as they swept by, the affrighted cities flew to arms and the country folk took to flight. Horses and men, spread far and wide, covered an immense tract of country; wherever they went they made it understood by loud shouts that they were going to Rome. But though they were preceded by rumours and by messages from Clusium, and then from one town after another, it was the swiftness of their approach that created most alarm in Rome. An army hastily raised by a levy en masse marched out to meet them. The two forces met hardly eleven miles from Rome, at a spot where the Alia, flowing in a very deep channel from the Crustuminian mountains, joins the river Tiber a little below the road to Crustumerium. The whole country in front and around was now swarming with the enemy, who, being as a nation given to wild outbreaks, had by their hideous howls and discordant clamour filled everything with dreadful noise.

CmacQ

Power2the1

11-24-2008, 23:47

Great stuff, cmacq! I totally agree with your Telamon to Rome idea. Why, assuming the Gauls won at Telamon, would they not go to Rome next (their probable original destination)? A great "what if" scenario if I ever heard one.

One thing I always found fascinating about the situation preceding the Allia battle, is the Celts did not molest the Italian country side or attack other towns on their way to Rome.

Meantime the Gauls learnt that their embassy had been treated with contempt, and that honours had actually been conferred upon men who had violated the law of nations. Burning with rage--as a nation they cannot control their passions--they seized their standards and hurriedly set out on their march. At the sound of their tumult as they swept by, the affrighted cities flew to arms and the country folk took to flight. Horses and men, spread far and wide, covered an immense tract of country; wherever they went they made it understood by loud shouts that they were going to Rome.

True actions of ignorant rampaging barbarians I must say. You'd think, had some propaganda crept into the text, that the Celts causing countrywide devastation be mention through and through, but there isn't a mention of this. Afterall, they "cannot control their passions" and were a nation "burning with rage." You'd think anything Roman would be fair game to their armies. It seems like the Celts were focused and after revenge, not the plunder and looting of those unaccountable, for the misfortunes that befell their ambassadors. Great stuff...

cmacq

11-26-2008, 02:59

Interworkings

I’m trying to interpret Livy’s History as literally as I can. I’ve never analyzed any of his work before, and I must say, it’s a bit more difficult that some other authors. However, it seems that the propaganda may have been creeping, in the early 20th century with Canon Roberts translation. Otherwise, Livy’s account of the Celtic army at Allia prior to battle seems very similar to Polybius’ Telamon and Plutarch's Clastidium.

Also, armed with what I think the sources say about the Gaesatae and the Rome Sack, I went back to my translation of Polybius, Histories, Book 2, Chapter 22, line 4. The key word here was μονον, which typically means alone, but can also be, only or possibly without, thus I rendered the opening as; ‘Herein without them, their (ancestors) took the field to fight and defeat the Romans.’ On its face, this would seem to run counter to the Gaesatae involvement in the Rome Sack story, despite Plutarch’s assertion otherwise. As this may have been an important courter argument, when I revisited this line I noticed it was actually, ου μονον. Interestingly, this can be rendered, ‘not only.’ For example; οὐ μόνον δέ, ἀλλὰ καὶ, literally translated as, 'And not only (this), but we also.' Thus, I reworked the opening of line 4 to be,’ Herein not only them but their (ancestors) took the field to fight and defeat the Romans.’ This appears to say, that not only the forefathers of the Boii and Insubres, but also the ancestors of the Gaesatae… If this rendering is somewhat correct, it may also support both Plutarch’s assertion and my assumption?

CmacQ

cmacq

11-26-2008, 09:26

The battle

Livy's History of Rome

Book 5
Chapter 38
ibi tribuni militum non loco castris ante capto, non praemunito uallo quo receptus esset, non deorum saltem si non hominum memores, nec auspicato nec litato, instruunt aciem, diductam in cornua ne circumueniri multitudine hostium possent; [2] nec tamen aequari frontes poterant cum extenuando infirmam et uix cohaerentem mediam aciem haberent. paulum erat ab dextera editi loci quem subsidiariis repleri placuit, eaque res ut initium pauoris ac fugae, sic una salus fugientibus fuit. [3] nam Brennus regulus Gallorum in paucitate hostium artem maxime timens, ratus ad id captum superiorem locum ut ubi Galli cum acie legionum recta fronte concucurrissent subsidia in auersos transuersosque impetum darent, [4] ad subsidiarios signa conuertit, si eos loco depulissit haud dubius facilem in aequo campi tantum superanti multitudine uictoriam fore. adeo non fortuna+ modo+ sed ratio+ etiam+ cum barbaris+ stabat+. [5] in altera acie nihil simile Romanis, non apud duces, non apud milites erat. pauor fugaque occupauerat animos et tanta omnium obliuio, ut multo maior pars Ueios in hostium urbem, cum Tiberis arceret, quam recto itinere Romam ad coniuges ac liberos fugerent. [6] parumper subsidiarios tutatus est locus; in reliqua acie simul est clamor proximis ab latere, ultimis ab tergo auditus, ignotum hostem prius paene quam uiderent, non modo non temptato certamine sed ne clamore quidem reddito integri intactique fugerunt; [7] nec ulla caedes pugnantium fuit; terga caesa suomet ipsorum certamine in turba impedientium fugam. [8] circa ripam Tiberis quo armis abiectis totum sinistrum cornu defugit, magna strages facta est, multosque imperitos nandi aut inualidos, graues loricis aliisque tegminibus, hausere gurgites; [9] maxima tamen pars incolumis Ueios perfugit, unde non modo praesidii quicquam sed ne nuntius quidem cladis Romam est missus. [10] ab dextro cornu quod procul a flumine et magis sub monte steterat, Romam omnes petiere et ne clausis quidem portis urbis in arcem confugerunt.

My Rendering
There the Consular Tribunes choose no place for a camp, as a refuge (they) did not fortify a ditch, nor at the (very) least did they heed any god with device, or divination. In truth (they) drew up the army for battle, with its wings stretched to cover the extent of the enemy’s numbers. [2] However so thinned and diminished that the front was uneven and barely cohered in the middle. On their right was a low raise favorable to deploy the reserve, these placed there to (guard) against panic and flight. [3] Yet Brennus the Gallic lord was exceedingly apprehensive that the enemy’s small numbers were a ruse, he reckoned that when he led the Gaul's attack on the front of the legion’s battle line, in turn from the heights they (may) swing this reserve around, cross over (the Allia), and deliver a blow. [4] Towards the standards of the reserve, if those on the heights were pushed aside, no doubt without difficulty on the level plain so greatly superior was the multitude victory would, by so little luck, planning, and even numbers, stand with the barbarians. [5]

Roberts Translation
The consular tribunes had secured no position for their camp, had constructed no entrenchments behind which to retire, and had shown as much disregard of the gods as of the enemy, for they formed their order of battle without having obtained favourable auspices. They extended their line on either wing to prevent their being outflanked, but even so they could not make their front equal to the enemy's, whilst by thus thinning their line they weakened the centre so that it could hardly keep in touch. On their right was a small eminence which they decided to hold with reserves, and this disposition, though it was the beginning of the panic and flight, proved to be the only means of safety to the fugitives. For Bennus, the Gaulish chieftain, fearing some ruse in the scanty numbers of the enemy, and thinking that the rising ground was occupied in order that the reserves might attack the flank and rear of the Gauls while their front was engaged with the legions, directed his attack upon the reserves, feeling quite certain that if he drove them from their position, his overwhelming numbers would give him an easy victory on the level ground. So not only Fortune but tactics also were on the side of the barbarians. In the other army there was nothing to remind one of Romans either amongst the generals or the private soldiers. They were terrified, and all they thought about was flight, and so utterly had they lost their heads that a far greater number fled to Veii, a hostile city, though the Tiber lay in their way, than by the direct road to Rome, to their wives and children.

For a short time the reserves were protected by their position. In the rest of the army, no sooner was the battle-shout heard on their flank by those nearest to the reserves, and then by those at the other end of the line heard in their rear, than they fled, whole and unhurt, almost before they had seen their untried foe, without any attempt to fight or even to give back the battle-shout. None were slain while actually fighting; they were cut down from behind whilst hindering one another's flight in a confused, struggling mass. Along the bank of the Tiber, whither the whole of the left wing had fled, after throwing away their arms, there was great slaughter. Many who were unable to swim or were hampered by the weight of their cuirasses and other armour were sucked down by the current. The greater number, however, reached Veii in safety, yet not only were no troops sent from there to defend the City, but not even was a messenger despatched to report the defeat to Rome. All the men on the right wing, which had been stationed some distance from the river, and nearer to the foot of the hill, made for Rome and took refuge in the Citadel without even closing the City gates.

CmacQ