Stopping missile casualties

[ajdeignan]

Hi All,

Playing a campaign as Casse (love the woad paintwork!!!), and I'm suffering terribly at the hands of javelins.

Quick scenario: I won't be able to reach/charge the enemy unit before he pelts me with javelins. Is it best the adopt a defensive/stationary posture (shields UP) or simply ignore the javelins because it makes no difference?

Thanks.

PS. Aren't those chariots difficult to control :beam:

[Ibrahim]

guard mode works, but you have to face the enemy. the best bet is to loosen the formation.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Your best bet is to take the most heavily armoured unit you have, with a shield value of at least three, but preferably four and order loose formation, to lines deep. I would have told you to use your general's bodyguard for that, but for Casse, they are chariot-mounted and javelins will slaughter them. Usually in my Romani campaign, I either rush the missile units with horsemen, or take my highly experienced general's bodyguards and put them into a two-line deep lose formation. I also use elite infantry, such as Cordinau Orca (they're the best!) in place of the bodyguards at times. Then I simply let the enemy expend their missiles. Even under slinger fire, my generals never suffer more than 5 casualties (Large unit size). The Cordinau Orcas suffer even less. Guard mode won't help BTW.

[Pontius Pilate]

when in doubt, ATTACK!

(preferably with cavalry when facing the skirmishers)

[Aemilius Paulus]

(preferably with cavalry when facing the skirmishers)

Actually, often times it is difficult to defeat a skirmisher unit with cavalry. Skirmishers have a lot of men (usually 120), some have spears not to mention that whenever you try to charge them, they run and when you finally catch up with them, the charge has long dissipated. It is a good thing that they have low ammo and short range.

[Pontius Pilate]

Actually, often times it is difficult to defeat a skirmisher unit with cavalry. Skirmishers have a lot of men (usually 120), some have spears not to mention that whenever you try to charge them, they run and when you finally catch up with them, the charge has long dissipated. It is a good thing that they have low ammo and short range.


yes, good point. I think light cavalry would be best. heavy cavalry can sometimes be cut to shreds when in melee, light cavalry, or even medium fairs a little better in melee.

[Aemilius Paulus]

How is light cavalry better? Its fast but a 120-man skirmisher unit will probably slaughter it, especially if the skirmishers have spears. No matter how fast a cavalry unit is, you will notice that charges only work when a unit is standing still or running towards you. A unit charging at your cavalry will not be hurt, just like a unit that is running away.

Here's my post on this topic, which also happens to be my first post in the totalwar.org forums:

What I have noticed so many times much to my own lament is that when a unit is running away from you, the effects of the charge tend to be minimized. A unit of un-upgraded Akontistai (120 men) against my Hellenestic Mercenary General's unit of 3 experience, 1 armor/weapons and containing 51 men tends to suffer only 1-5 casualties under the conditions that the general's unit is charging them while they're running away. A unit of spearmen or heavy infantry armed with spears, when braced for the impact, usually has no fatalities. Even a unit that is not armed with spears could minimize the number of dead by in turn charging the charging enemy horsemen. However, simply running towards the charging cavalry but not actually charging at the horsemen does not offer much advantage.

For instance, to test this I took a unit of Gaesatae (60 men) and Seleukid general's unit of about 35 men. During the first test, I let the bodyguard charge me, head on, with my men braced. The casualties: a surprising of 7 men dead (JUST the initial impact, absolutely no melee)! On the second test, the Naked Fanatics charged the in turn charging bodyguard, resulting in no losses among the Fanatics due to the effects of the charge itself, although as the fray went on, some of the Gaesatae did eventually meet their ancestors (the first Fanatic died well into about the 15th second of the fight). I also ran this test with other medium to high quality swordsmen and ended up with strikingly similiar results. The braced swordsmen received even higher casualties from the charging cavalry, but when leading a counter-charge, the sword infantry usually did not sustain any losses from the charge.

[Pontius Pilate]

interesting. I was talking about melee instead of charging though. Light cavalry isn't very good at charging into infantry masses anyway. But it does fair better in melee. Well, I don't know what I'm doing is right or wrong, but my tactics alway work for me.

[ludwag]

Hi All,

Playing a campaign as Casse (love the woad paintwork!!!), and I'm suffering terribly at the hands of javelins.

Quick scenario: I won't be able to reach/charge the enemy unit before he pelts me with javelins. Is it best the adopt a defensive/stationary posture (shields UP) or simply ignore the javelins because it makes no difference?

Thanks.

PS. Aren't those chariots difficult to control :beam:

have one or two units you dont like, and put them in loose formation, and let them stand in front of your lines and take all the enemy fire

[Aemilius Paulus]

but my tactics alway work for me.

That's the most important thing. Using tactics that are useful to other people, but at which you do not excel does not make sense. One should do whatever they are most comfortable using.


have one or two units you dont like, and put them in loose formation, and let them stand in front of your lines and take all the enemy fire
That is also possible, but what will end up happening is that when the battle ends, most of of those units that you "don't like" will heal, due to the fact that their casualties were so large and all from missile fire, while the rest of the units will not heal at all, because there is only so many menthat will recuperate after a battle. If you are fine with this, than its no problem, but if you're not, usually, using a high armour/shield unit in loose, two-line deep formation is your best bet. Gaesatae/Galatikoi Tindanotae are especially good for this role as their two hitpoints make them extra resilient to missiles.

[ludwag]

I was going to say that most om them would heal anyway becouse its from missile fire. But I diddnt know that there was a limit on how many that could heal. details like this is hard to know. I wish there was a list of things to know. So many questions comes up all the time.

I have a question by the way on missilefire: Are they more resistant to arrows in guard mode?

[Aemilius Paulus]

I was going to say that most om them would heal anyway becouse its from missile fire. But I diddnt know that there was a limit on how many that could heal. details like this is hard to know. I wish there was a list of things to know. So many questions comes up all the time.

I have a question by the way on missilefire: Are they more resistant to arrows in guard mode?

Yes there is a limit to how many people can heal. It is always random, but within a certain range. Healing ancillaries are the best way you can increase the amount of troops healed. Druidic Surgeons have 15 effect on battle surgery, while the Chirurgeons have 10 effect. All other common ancillaries, such as Herbalists, Physicians, Doctors, etc have 5 effect. Don't ask me what 15 or 10 or 5 effect means though. I don't know. However, it is common sense that having a Chirirgeon is better than a Doctor for instance.

For questions on RTW mechanics, the Ludus Magna forum at: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=88 is the best. It is full of threads that provide research and results on just about every RTW game mechanic. The threads there are strictly moderated, and only the Ludus Magna moderators can post a thread. One can only request a thread via PM to the moderators.

Guard mode does not protect units from missile fire. The units still have shields casually at their sides; all guard mode does is prevent soldiers from breaking formation. The results are that the units in the formation deal out less damage, but do not tire at all.

[Celtic_Punk]

Not in my experience, unless they are hoplites. Hoplites due to their high defence values suck up missiles (other than slingers)

Id also like to mention, charge into charges... you'll take less casualties, and it looks pretty cool

[Apgad]

Aren't those chariots difficult to control :beam:

They do take a little getting used to, but can be very effective when you get the hang of it. I found them most useful when I used Alexander-type hammer and anvil tactics. I would hold the enemy in a single line with my spearmen, and run the chariots around each end variously throwing their own javelins into the enemy backs, and then plowing into and out of their line. Don't hang around in a melee, just keep moving. Having 2 FMs attack in turns from each side will very quickly demoralise the enemy, and often trigger routs with just a few charges. The one thing they're not good at is chasing routers, so keep a few light cavalry in hand for mopping up.

[ludwag]

does scythed chariots kill people when just passing by them? or do they have to charge or attack?

[Aemilius Paulus]

does scythed chariots kill people when just passing by them? or do they have to charge or attack?

Just passing by is enough, but most soldiers get knocked down and not killed. Scythed Chariots are weak in my opinion, against everything but cavalry, whom they slaughter with their scythes (you can't really knock down a horseman in RTW). The Celtic Chariots are especially weak, because they do not have scythes.

[Celtic_Punk]

AP is quite correct, chariots in general are somewhat weak. If they get caught up on anything, they'll be butchered. But scythed chariots are brutal against cavalry. Which brings me to my own question, since RTW cavalry cannot be knocked off their horse, can they be knocked off in M2TW? Therefore adding a totally awesome element to EBII

[Aemilius Paulus]

since RTW cavalry cannot be knocked off their horse, can they be knocked off in M2TW? Therefore adding a totally awesome element to EBII

No. M2TW has a whole crapload of new game mechanics, but this isn't one of them. In MTW you actually have an option of dismounting your horsemen, but not in the so-called MiNO (Medieval in Name Only).

Have you played any other TW game except RTW? If you haven't don't even bother playing M2TW. It has the most buggy battle mechanics. Especially cavalry. You can take the best sword infantry unit in the game and the worst mounted knight unit in the game, charge the best infantry unit with the knights and easily kill 82 out 0f 90 of the infantry. It is really messed up how much damage charging cavalry does. Not even spearmen can resist their charge. On the other hand, cavalry is very sluggish, and you cannot really control it. every time I pull out of a charge, something like 4-6 needlessly die because they are stuck for some reason due to them not following orders. The unit stats are also messed up, with most infantry having something like 17 attack and only 5 defence. The game is really not worth the money, but ten again, its just my opinion. You'll still have to buy it for EB II, so you might as well try it out.

[Celtic_Punk]

Well i said already im only buying it for EBII, so hopefully the bugs will be worked around, and partially fixed!, but back on topic...


really teh best thing you can do to stop taking casualties from missiles is to form up in loose formation. It also makes your troops look more numerous, sometimes hurting the moral of the enemy (oh snap, LOOK AT ALL THEM DUDES!!!!)

plus if they try to attack you with cavalry, the charge's power is dissipated and you can press close formation and trap the cavalry inside your formation, butchering them.

[zooeyglass]

in my current casse campaign i've used a rather simple trick to get around javelins...

i allow the enemy to come to me, and try to pair two of my units with javelins (any of the basic infantry units have them) against one of theirs. that means in the exchange of javelin flinging, the enemy unit will inevitably come off worse...then it's just a mopping up job. it doesn't avoid some javelin casualties, but it does whittle them down fairly swiftly.

that is to say, javelin the javelinners.

[Celtic_Punk]

the only crappy thing is... What if your outnumbered?

[ludwag]

In MTW you actually have an option of dismounting your horsemen, but not in the so-called MiNO (Medieval in Name Only). What is these new mechanics? And what do you mean by MiNO? I havent noticed many new mechanics and I dont know how to dismount knights :S Prisoners is the only one I know. I think medieval 2 is just like Rome, but with late medieval models and stuff:(

[Celtic_Punk]

MiNO = Medieval in name only


btw, yes i know this is dirty, READ MY AAR!!! NEW KH AAR! its awesome! wooo

[ludwag]

but what is medieval in name only?

[zooeyglass]

the only crappy thing is... What if your outnumbered?

one can still try to manoeuvre a unit on its own, so that you get the two-on-one situation, potentially a unit at the end of their battle line. but that's fairly tough. another option would be using a bridge/gate/street to funnel their troops into a single column, which would make things a little easier...

but it can be tough...

[cmacq]

The Blow of Mercy

On the one hand I will simply not tolerate all but a few loses due to missile attacks. In contrast, its far nobler my opponents suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, well before the melee starts. Pick your ground. The key is upslope, protected (trees), with cover (more trees). If your portion of the battle field is all down slope, place all you force on an extreme flank and make a dash for a dominant up slope land form, on your opponent’s side. Once you controll the right ground use your missile troops to counter those of your opponent. The Opfor skirmishers will typically be in the van and will be in your range at a much greater distance. In order for them to return fire they will need to get very close to your front line. Overall your fire will not be very effective as the Opfor will go to a loose formation, but it will more or less neutralize the Opfor's missile troops and minimize your losses.

You can use this defensive tactic as part of a combined arms action that can be turned offensive; herein 1) due to your suppressive fire you 2) force the enemy skirmisher to close, as 3) they reach a dead line (the dead line should be the point on the siope where the Opfor skirmishers can return fire on your front ranks) you counter by charging your medium or heavy foot into the Opfor skirmishers (simultaneously swing your horse from behind the center, to the flanks), the 4) Opfor will counter by quickly charging its medium and heavy foot towards yours in the center while retreating its skirmishers to the rear and flanks through its foot, 5) at this point you can a) halt your foot in the center on guard mode, b) retreat back upslope some distance then turn and defend, or c) continue straight into the enemy foot (while this is done move your missile troops to the flanks as these are now backed by your horse). Each option has its advantage for example; no matter what happens, when the enemy either follows or halts they will come under increasingly more effective fire now on their flanks. At this point its now about the timing, or how long you think your center can hold. Meanwhile, 6) as the Opfor foot and horse are fully engaged in the center, directly attack (melee) their still retreating and strung out skirmishers (the more strung out a unit is the quicker it routes), which will still be in a loose formation, with one unit of the same on each flank while you swing your horse around and deliver the coup de grace, on these. As this is being done shift and concentrate all your missile fire to the enemy general. Once the Opfor pickets have routed you can do as you may to finish the main body. If you get lucky, the Opfor general may be pinged by your massed missile fire and 'that’s' more or less how they say, 'the ball game.'


And, remember ambuscade, ambuscade, ambuscade, and of course ambuscade where and whenever you can.


CmacQ

[geala]

The performance of cavalry against loose order infantry ist one of the things that I don't like in EB. It is no pleasure not to be able to crush and defeat a bunch of archers or slingers or light peltasts with medium or heavy cavalry. So many incidents in history existed where cavalry anhinnilated such infantry. Infantry in loose order or on the move is extremely vulnerable to cavalry attacks so I gave typical units (skirmishers, archers, slingers, artillery crew) much worse stats against cavalry.

[hoom]

If I'm defending & expecting to get hit by a bunch of javelins, I'll setup with big shielded and reasonably armoured but relatively cheap/widely available infantry (Classical Hoplites & similar) out front, light stuff to the back.

The likes of Drapani need to be kept the heck away from javelins.

On attack, an unchecked heavy/medium infantry charge is best since javelin types have plenty of ammo but only get 2ish volleys if you charge into the melee.

[Praetor Diego]

The performance of cavalry against loose order infantry ist one of the things that I don't like in EB. It is no pleasure not to be able to crush and defeat a bunch of archers or slingers or light peltasts with medium or heavy cavalry. So many incidents in history existed where cavalry anhinnilated such infantry. Infantry in loose order or on the move is extremely vulnerable to cavalry attacks so I gave typical units (skirmishers, archers, slingers, artillery crew) much worse stats against cavalry.


About that, I think that a mount= Horse -2 (or higher) should be in all skirmisher/slingers/archers. This will make them weak against cavalry, both at meele and at range. So you can crush them with your cavalry, plus they will not be as efective against horsemen at range. (I find annoying to see the cavalry staying quiet while being killed by arrows)


Sorry for my english :sweatdrop: