Question(s) about Parthia

[LordCurlyton]

Why did the Sassanians hate them so much? I mean to go to the effort of trying to eliminate all traces of them...wow. Maybe that's because my knowledge of who the Sassanians are is limited to pretty much "the dudes who were the next version of the Persian Empire after the Parthians and who got whomped by the Arabs upon the advent of Islam".
Also, how much archaeological evidence is their from the Partian times? Especially in terms of what day-to-day life would have been like for various classes. It seems at least from the EB descriptions that even armor/weapon finds are not terribly common and a lot of the units Pahlava has are inferred from Achaemenid or Sassanian sources (being the predecessor and successor, respectively), with early Parni units being derived mainly from Central Asian finds of predecessor/related tribes. Since the in-game descriptions mention that the Parthians had a feudal setup would life have been terribly different than that seen in High Medieval Europe (minus the cultural flavor, of course)? Also, is there a book on culinary practices in Parthia (or a general one on the Hellenistic time frame's various culinary arts)? The game also mentions that a lot of unique spices were grown in Parthian lands and I'd be curious to know which ones and if they are still around today.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Why did the Sassanians hate them so much? I mean to go to the effort of trying to eliminate all traces of them...wow. Maybe that's because my knowledge of who the Sassanians are is limited to pretty much "the dudes who were the next version of the Persian Empire after the Parthians and who got whomped by the Arabs upon the advent of Islam".
Also, how much archaeological evidence is their from the Partian times? Especially in terms of what day-to-day life would have been like for various classes. It seems at least from the EB descriptions that even armor/weapon finds are not terribly common and a lot of the units Pahlava has are inferred from Achaemenid or Sassanian sources (being the predecessor and successor, respectively), with early Parni units being derived mainly from Central Asian finds of predecessor/related tribes. Since the in-game descriptions mention that the Parthians had a feudal setup would life have been terribly different than that seen in High Medieval Europe (minus the cultural flavor, of course)? Also, is there a book on culinary practices in Parthia (or a general one on the Hellenistic time frame's various culinary arts)? The game also mentions that a lot of unique spices were grown in Parthian lands and I'd be curious to know which ones and if they are still around today.

*makes a mental note*

I will get back to this later today.

[LordCurlyton]

Hopefully not because I posted something totally ignorant, outside of my admitted ignorance. ~D

[Reno Melitensis]

Well we wait for an answer from TPC on this one, history learning at its best.

Cheers.

[Ibrahim]

Why did the Sassanians hate them so much? I mean to go to the effort of trying to eliminate all traces of them...wow. Maybe that's because my knowledge of who the Sassanians are is limited to pretty much "the dudes who were the next version of the Persian Empire after the Parthians and who got whomped by the Arabs upon the advent of Islam".
Also, how much archaeological evidence is their from the Partian times? Especially in terms of what day-to-day life would have been like for various classes. It seems at least from the EB descriptions that even armor/weapon finds are not terribly common and a lot of the units Pahlava has are inferred from Achaemenid or Sassanian sources (being the predecessor and successor, respectively), with early Parni units being derived mainly from Central Asian finds of predecessor/related tribes. Since the in-game descriptions mention that the Parthians had a feudal setup would life have been terribly different than that seen in High Medieval Europe (minus the cultural flavor, of course)? Also, is there a book on culinary practices in Parthia (or a general one on the Hellenistic time frame's various culinary arts)? The game also mentions that a lot of unique spices were grown in Parthian lands and I'd be curious to know which ones and if they are still around today.


TPC did provide a link to the some recipes around here somewhere. It was less than 5 weeks ago that he did. you can search around here for it. I'll try to find it.


EDIT: here's the parthian quisine website: http://www.parthia.com/parthia_cuisine.htm . they have some sources here (roman or greek one's though). as for the spices they mention, they are still grown to this day (though whether in Iran I'm not sure).

@TPC: having read the part after my last post there: I know halal i s from the 7th century. I'm just asking if there was a wine substitute. thanks anyways.

[Atraphoenix]

It would be just a hypothesis, Sassanids were just a straphy under parthians, after the loss of Cteciphon and also mesopotamia the authority of Parthians over persia very weakened as the country was not a centralized one many factions blamed Parthians for that shame and many inner conflicts started as you may know sassanids overcome them and became the new Shahanshah of persia.

it would be like a briton saxon(also jutes angls) relationship now in wales even %20 of welsh can speak welsh.

I estimate that successors trys to wipe out previous civilization or assimilate by destroying the remnants of the previous civilization.

or maybe the etnicity of parthians caused them that thing as parthians were not a native persian tribe.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Okay, seems like there is a pocket of time available for me.

First of all, there is an awful lot of old stuff for EB's Pahlava that needs updating that I've had no prior influence of; for instance, I would never propagate for the postulate of Sassanians destroying the Parthian heritage. The reasons why is because the primary sources make several indications of the opposite, and even in the semi-mythical biography of the first Sassanian King of Kings, the Kârnâmag of Ardeshîr/Artaxerxes, we are not only told that he took an Arsacid maiden as the queen consort (Therefore making Shâpûr/Sapores I half-Arsacid by association), but that the clan of Sâsân (House of the Sassanians) had deposed the previous client rulers, the Vâzarangîg/Bazrangids who may have had a history starting with the Achaemenian-related Seleucid client of Persis, Bagadates. These Bazrangids, if my speculation bears any form of support (Which is limited to sketchy numismatic findings), were native to Persis, and the Sassanians appear quite late as the custodians of temple-lords of Anaïtis/Ânâhîtâ. I would therefore deduce from these indications that the Sassanians were a clan, formed during the Parthian era, if not outrightly Parthians themselves.

Interestingly, Graeco-Roman sources continue to call Artaxerxes and Sapores "Parthian rulers". The support of the Sassanians, through the loyalty of several Parthian clans was highly crucial in order for the rebellion to have become so successful. In fact, it is during this Arsacid-Sassanian interlude that we find a highly interesting factor within the Iranian code of chivalry. Artabanus and Artaxerxes, and their closest retinue engaged in personal duels, and jousts. This of course, is echoed in semi-mythical narrations of the national bard Fêrdôwsî.

The fact is that the Sassanians would to the contrary wage wars against Rome on behalf of Armenia and Caucasian Iberia on the grounds that their lords were of Iranian origins; ironically it were these Arsacid lords who notoriously had an intensive dislike for the Sassanians. It was therefore an Arsacid-Sassanian rivalry, not a "Parthian-Persian" rivalry. The nomenclature again shows itself inadequate and flawed. The Sassanians however, in a curious parallel to the Arsacids, may indirectly as in both cases have paid homage to the Achaemenians (As the Achaemenians themselves had taken inspiration from the humble origins of the Medeans), because the Arsacids had originally been descended from the Âpârnî nomads, while the Sassanians were originally petty nobles who governed the temple of Istakhr. Comparing this to the saga of how Cyrus was bred as a shepherd, and living on sparse means and his coming of age, is highly relevant to understand the underlying basis of pre-Islamic Iranian kingship; the Medeans themselves may have founded this pattern.

The Iranian identity was always emphasized; there was no such construct as a "native Persian-centeredness", as it is not indicated anywhere. Otherwise the Sassanians would not have stressed their "righteous position" as successors of the Arsacids. Just like how the Achaemenians were in fact royalty of mixed Medean-Persian descent, the Arsacids themselves gradually became less of the Scythic-Dahae chief tribe and as they intermarried with the native Parthians, and eventually took concubines from as far west as Miletus, they turned significantly "Oriental" over the course of the centuries.

The findings left to us from the Parthian era are overwhelmingly of numismatic nature. The vast majority of all these findings are coins, and we have this rich tapestry of coinage from not just the Arsacids, but some of Indo-Parthians, a few from Chorasmia, some Seleucid-Persian/Vâzarangîg coinage, Elymaïs Kamnaskirid coins, Characene/Aspasine coins, and so forth. Because the Parthian style of coinage is easily overviewed through the Sellwood catalogues, we can see their numismatic history by observing the style, debasement, and final degradation of Parthian coinage. Perhaps more important, when they switched from Greek to Aramaïc and Parthian Pahlavîg in their written legends. Parthian military findings however are sparse; we have a confident picture of how they dressed during early, middle and late-imperial eras, but there are century-wide gaps between helmetry, horse-harness and these are filled in accordingly to available reasoning, and through what the classics do tell.

I have previously discussed Parthian cuisine; for now a simple search will have to do. One day I intend to collect the "useful" entries into a single thread for simpler reference.

[LordCurlyton]

So basically the Sassanians were a dynastic change from the Arsacids, much like the periodic dynastic changes in China or ancient Egypt? That would explain why I couldn't recall much of the origin of the Sassanians as opposed to the other major players that came before and after. And is there anything readily available where I could find a description of pre-Islamic chivalry and kingship, and perhaps compares it to other chivalric codes and ideas of kingship concurrent at the time? Its always fascinated me on how people believe their ruler(s) should be chosen and how it interacts with the rest of an area's cultural weave.
Plus, its nice to know that the Sassanians weren't intent on destroying the Parthian legacy. It just seemed so...extreme.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Ad hoc: One highly interesting factor is derived from numismatics once again. Many coins of Ardashîr are copies of the highly prolific coinage of the Parthian emperor Mithradates II The Great. Compare:

http://cache.eb.com/eb/image?id=13395&rendTypeId=4

Ardashîr.

http://imagedb.coinarchives.com/img/cng/079/image00486.jpg

Mithradates II.

During an age where Arsacid coinage was debased, this is of course not only just a homage; it's a political statement. Ardashîr finds enough political power to reissue Mithradates' coinage, after a period of two to three centuries of which the originals were first minted.

Personally, I would compare the dynastic transition between the Arsacid and Sassanian eras to the Roman equivalent; from republic to empire. The Parthian empire was at heart and soul a confederacy, and remained as such even after the failed efforts of Mithradates II, Orodes II, Vologases I and Vologases IV. It would take me perhaps weeks to describe even half of the political instability and fragility of the Greater Iran, but needless to say, without the Arsacids, the Sassanian empire would have been made of absolutely nothing. It was with Parthian arms, and tactics that Ardashîr and Shâpûr managed to reassert the Iranian hegemony against the Roman rival.

If you wish to read more on the subject from one of the primary sources, you may refer to the Kârnâmag, here (http://titus.uni-frankfurt.de/texte/etcs/iran/miran/mpers/kap/kap.htm). It is by far the most useful edition of the Kârnâmag published yet.

[Apgad]

Umm, wow...

[LordCurlyton]

Fascinating. Sadly I cannot read/speak any language besides English fluently. I can manage Latin but it is severely rusty by this point. One of my eventual goals is to learn Greek, Latin (again), and some form of the old Persian-based tongues (pre-Islamic). I'd include Chinese but I hear that the hardest languages to learn as an English-speaker are the Oriental ones. Mainly this is so I could read the various primary sources I'm interested in. If you have anything in English that would at least prove a good starting point for me I'd be appreciative.
Also, many thanks to Ibrahim for the link and informing me that it had already been discussed.
EDIT: So the Ardashir coinage is showing that he is directly trying to evoke (one of) the greatest Arsacid ruler(s)? I wonder if any of the remaining Arsacids tried something similar. Or was this by the time where the Sassanian line would have been firmly entrenched and there would have been no real competitors who felt they had the political leverage to mint coinage? Outside of Arsacid nobles in Armenia and Caucasian Iberia, of course, who would mint coinage for their respective areas.

[Atraphoenix]

pardon me for my ignorance I am caucasion I learned many things on post İslamic history around my region but intentionally or not to wipe out or clear the previous history of mesopotamia and Persia became successfull methinks...
as christianized rome destroyed old roman politheist temples, muslim authorities managed to clear the pre-islamic history and backround of the area...
until I searched Zoroastrianism I use to think it as a politheist religion but now I can claim that Zoroastrianism should be the first monotheist religion.

out of topic sorry thanks for come back :bow:

[Subotan]

Zoroastrianism speaks of metaphysical Dualism, but spiritual monotheism. The ideas of Satan/The Devil in Abrahamic Religion is a direct influence from Zoroastrianism, and probably results from the return of the Jews to Israel by the Achaemenid Persians (Particularly Cyrus the Great), and the resulting good relations between Zoroastrians and Jews.
Edit: Yes, the Muslims countries have sadly been very successful in preventing pre-Islamic Arabian studies; denouncing them as "sinful times", they have blocked funding, barred archaeologists and demolished historical sites :no:

[Atraphoenix]

Zoroastrianism speaks of metaphysical Dualism, but spiritual monotheism. The ideas of Satan/The Devil in Abrahamic Religion is a direct influence from Zoroastrianism, and probably results from the return of the Jews to Israel by the Achaemenid Persians (Particularly Cyrus the Great), and the resulting good relations between Zoroastrians and Jews.
Edit: Yes, the Muslims countries have sadly been very successful in preventing pre-Islamic Arabian studies; denouncing them as "sinful times", they have blocked funding, barred archaeologists and demolished historical sites

not only them every conversion period ruined the previous religion and backround, reconquesta, constantine etc.. the only exception is Alexander who tried to merge greek and persian cultural and religious existance but failed methinks....

anyway out of topic man, maybe another thread..... :book:

[artavazd]

pardon me for my ignorance I am caucasion I learned many things on post İslamic history around my region but intentionally or not to wipe out or clear the previous history of mesopotamia and Persia became successfull methinks...
as christianized rome destroyed old roman politheist temples, muslim authorities managed to clear the pre-islamic history and backround of the area...
until I searched Zoroastrianism I use to think it as a politheist religion but now I can claim that Zoroastrianism should be the first monotheist religion.

out of topic sorry thanks for come back :bow:



You are from the Caucasus? What is your ethnicity?

[Atraphoenix]

Georgian, but my grandfathers run away from there longs ago because of another stupid war like now... :shame:

[artavazd]

Georgian, but my grandfathers run away from there longs ago because of another stupid war like now... :shame:


I am Armenian. Which war are you talking about?

[desert]

Originally Posted by Atraphoenix
Georgian, but my grandfathers run away from there longs ago because of another stupid war like now...

Hey, my mom's Georgian! :dizzy2:

But what does this have to do with ancient Parthia?

Oh crap, I think AP is having a negative influence on me!

[Atraphoenix]

I am Armenian. Which war are you talking about?

First wave of migration was during The Great War of 1877 1878 between Ottoman Empire & Russia where the Georgian Lands was destroyed and many fled.

Second wave must be during the battle between 1920s when Turks invaded many Georgian Cities after Russia has withdrawed from Caucasia. Lucky ones escaped the remnats suffered soviet opression.

I think my grandfathers fled Georgia in the First wave of migration.


But what does this have to do with ancient Parthia?

Man, they are our neighbour since the world was created :laugh4:
And they dominated my motherland for many centuries. If you read Georgian History we always fought with them either we won or they conquered my country.
I hope you are not mixing Georgia the Country and Georgia the US State?

but we are killing the topic :beam:


Abrahamic Religion is a direct influence from Zoroastrianism, and probably results from the return of the Jews to Israel by the Achaemenid Persians (Particularly Cyrus the Great), and the resulting good relations between Zoroastrians and Jews.

It is an irony that today jews and Iranians are worst enemy. when Trajan invaded mesopotamia Jews were the first who rebelled against Romans and they must have succeeded because Hadrian give up mesopatimia when his father died and he became the new Emperor.

P.S: Correction; Sorry for remembering Hadrian mistakenly as the son of Trajan. "His predecessor Trajan was a maternal cousin of Hadrian's father."

[Tyrfingr]

It is an irony that today jews and Iranians are worst enemy.

There's no irony at all, since today's Iran has nothing to do with ancient Persia.

[Subotan]

Ethincally and semi-culturally they do (It's amazing how the Persian identity has survived despite 1300 years of Arabian Islam; probably thanks to the Shanameh), but politically? Nope, there's no connection, although it makes me chuckle that neven the most hardline Iranian Islamist would have had Zoroastiran ancestors, and probably would have been brought up as one, were it not for Islam.

[The Persian Cataphract]

Dude, you have to change your avatar :smash:

[Subotan]

To what? I like my golden mask :D

[Ibrahim]

Ethincally and semi-culturally they do (It's amazing how the Persian identity has survived despite 1300 years of Arabian Islam; probably thanks to the Shanameh), but politically? Nope, there's no connection, although it makes me chuckle that neven the most hardline Iranian Islamist would have had Zoroastiran ancestors, and probably would have been brought up as one, were it not for Islam.

actually, it shouldn't be so surprising:

granted, the Arabs conquered much of the sassanid empire, and Hajjaj ibn yusif made deliberate attempts at destroying Iranian identity. but: 1) they weren't successful in subjugating Deylam quickly enough (hence why most liturature is from there). 2) the persians were still resentful of their conquerors (the banu umayyah's policies didn't help: just ask Hajjaj ibn yusif), and kept a sort of counter culture going, one that outlasted the banu umayyah, and IIRC helped install the abbasids to the khilafah (the abbasids derived their bases from Iraq and Iran).

In the end though, they may have lost a lot of info, but you have to admit, they got back at the Arabs in a most clever manner- most the religious lawbooks, most grammar books, and most Sunnas and siras were Persian.. in fact, more than 90% of all literature from the 8th to 11th centuries was persian written or influenced, and 1 Islamic jurisprudence among us Sunnis is Iranian in origin (hanafi). everything, or most of everything, related to Islam today is Iranian in Origin/inspiration, except the Qur'an itself (and a few biographies from Ibn Ishaq and anecdotes, as well as most jurisprudences). In fact, one scholar argued that the Islam we have today is a persian interpretation of the origional.. gosh you guys ARE everywhere..

[artavazd]

Ethincally and semi-culturally they do (It's amazing how the Persian identity has survived despite 1300 years of Arabian Islam; probably thanks to the Shanameh), but politically? Nope, there's no connection, although it makes me chuckle that neven the most hardline Iranian Islamist would have had Zoroastiran ancestors, and probably would have been brought up as one, were it not for Islam.



Well not all. In fact not most. In the Islamic Republic of Iran only about 20-30% are of real Iranian lineage.



http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2005/09/06/PH2005090601603.jpg



http://www.presstv.ir/photo/20080629/davari20080629192358515.jpg



The man in the first picture has definate non Iranian lineage.

[Subotan]

Really? Define "Real heritage"
And who's the second guy?

[Watchman]

"Real heritage" sounds pretty inherently fictional when you're talking about the kind of crossroads-cum-transcontinental-highway of Eurasia that most of the real estate inhabited by the diverse Iranian-speaking peoples was for some millenia...
I mean, Europeans and the Chinese and Indians must be about the exact only major groups of any consequence that didn't drop by (and more or less get absorbed).

[Subotan]

"Real heritage" sounds pretty inherently fictional when you're talking about the kind of crossroads-cum-transcontinental-highway of Eurasia that most of the real estate inhabited by the diverse Iranian-speaking peoples was for some millenia...
I mean, Europeans and the Chinese and Indians must be about the exact only major groups of any consequence that didn't drop by (and more or less get absorbed).

That's what I meant by "Real heritage". Everyone has had a go at smacking Iran, and each new people has brought new aspects of their culture to fuse with the Persian identity.

[The Persian Cataphract]

To what? I like my golden mask :D

Not you. That other guy who has the same avatar. I have laid claim to it :clown:

[The Persian Cataphract]

Well not all. In fact not most. In the Islamic Republic of Iran only about 20-30% are of real Iranian lineage.



http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2005/09/06/PH2005090601603.jpg



http://www.presstv.ir/photo/20080629/davari20080629192358515.jpg



The man in the first picture has definate non Iranian lineage.

In all honesty, he has non-human lineage, and unfortunately I'm going to aggravate the simian species with this most unfortunate similarity, but Ahmadinejad finds his strongest resemblance amongst chimpanzees.

I too am at times very flabbergasted by how all the handsome male specimen of Iranians suddenly disappeared. How did these short-statured Hezbollah-like lot who dress horribly, suffer from obesity, and let their beards grow like a dense patch of pubic hair get in there? I mean, it's embarassing, some of these guys' heads look like disfigured eggplants.

[Atraphoenix]

Well not all. In fact not most. In the Islamic Republic of Iran only about 20-30% are of real Iranian lineage.
men Persia is in the middle of the world many tribes and nations passed through it, turks, mongols, arabs, etc. to stay in a pure lineage one community should locate on a distant island like japans.
Turkey is same like Persia and a genetic lineage research showed only %10 15 of Turkey have pure Turkic lineage. Did the Turks wipe out all Romans when they conquered Anatolia? No, they married with them and by the time passes ethnic Romans assimilated into Turkic Culture.
In this area I mean In Europe, mesopatimia, asia minor(Anatolia) many great civilizations survived then destroyed. In modern times no one can claim that a nation is ethnically have same lineage with the main historical Community.

[artavazd]

men Persia is in the middle of the world many tribes and nations passed through it, turks, mongols, arabs, etc. to stay in a pure lineage one community should locate on a distant island like japans.
Turkey is same like Persia and a genetic lineage research showed only %10 15 of Turkey have pure Turkic lineage. Did the Turks wipe out all Romans when they conquered Anatolia? No, they married with them and by the time passes ethnic Romans assimilated into Turkic Culture.
In this area I mean In Europe, mesopatimia, asia minor(Anatolia) many great civilizations survived then destroyed. In modern times no one can claim that a nation is ethnically have same lineage with the main historical Community.

Turks didnt marry Romans. By the time turks arrived in that part of the world, The Byzantin Empire and Armenia were centers of Christianity. With turks being muslim, and the rest of the population being Christian, marriage would not have been possible. We have to look at the situation without sugar coating history. You are correct that only 10-15% of "Turks" in Turkey have pure Turkic lineage, because most Turks of Turkey are Turkified Armenians, Georgians, Greeks, Kapadokians, Gallatians, Serbians, Romanians, Bulgarians, ect.

The Ottoman Empire had what is known as the Dervish tax, in which Christian communitites were forced to give a children to the Sultan. The boys became Janisaries, and the girls went into the harems.

Also you talk about Japan, and you are only partly correct about how today it would be impossible to find an ethnicity that has one lineage. However there are a couple of ethnicities due to their more or less uniqiue history who have preserved their ethnicity. Ill just give three examples. Armenians Georgians and Greeks. Now there is nothing special about being Armenian or Georgian or Greek, but these three people have shared a similar trend in their histories(since the 11th century AD) which has more or less preserved their same ethnic lineage. They were subjects of the Ottoman Empire. By being Christian subjects of the Ottoman Empire, integrating into Muslim society was impossible. Therefore these people lived in their own communities, and intermarriges was unheard of. My words are proven by Genetic studies, in which it shows Greek Armenian Georgian DNA in the population of Turkey, but almost non-existant Turkic Dna in the above three ethnicities. Infact Georgian and Armenian DNA is almost Identical, and the Greeks share alot of the same as well.


Anyways we are getting off topic. I apologize.

[Uticensis]

Turks didnt marry Romans. By the time turks arrived in that part of the world, The Byzantin Empire and Armenia were centers of Christianity. With turks being muslim, and the rest of the population being Christian, marriage would not have been possible. We have to look at the situation without sugar coating history.

The Turks absolutely did intermarry with the Romans of Asia Minor. Even though the area was Christian before the Turkish conquest, the people very quickly converted in order to avoid paying higher taxes. In fact, in cities like Nicaea, the population converted incredibly quickly, becoming a thoroughly Muslim city within a few years.

You are right that the devshirme did have some impact in spreading people from the Balkans to Turkey, but I think you overestimate its impact. The fact that only 10-15% of the Turkish population has a completely Turkish lineage shows that there must have been some serious cultural integration.

[artavazd]

The Turks absolutely did intermarry with the Romans of Asia Minor. Even though the area was Christian before the Turkish conquest, the people very quickly converted in order to avoid paying higher taxes. In fact, in cities like Nicaea, the population converted incredibly quickly, becoming a thoroughly Muslim city within a few years.

You are right that the devshirme did have some impact in spreading people from the Balkans to Turkey, but I think you overestimate its impact. The fact that only 10-15% of the Turkish population has a completely Turkish lineage shows that there must have been some serious cultural integration.

Yes but in order for intermarrage to occure the Greek, and other native Anatolian people had to convert first and then be married. What I am talking about is populations who didnt kneel to the Turks and convert. The gene flow went from the indiginouse populations to the Turks not the other way around. In other words, Turks did not become Kappadokians, Greeks, Armenians, Serbians, but the conquered people were Turkified. At the end much of the diffrenet peoples of Anatolia had been turkified, with the exceptions being the Balkans (even though Bosnia and Albania became Muslim), Armenians and Georgians.

[Watchman]

I'm not really seeing your point, TBH.

[artavazd]

I'm not really seeing your point, TBH.

My point is in order for intermarrage to have occured, the Christian population would have to convert to Islam. However the populations who did not convert, intermarriage was not possible.

[LordCurlyton]

More importantly, how does this all relate to my original set of questions? TPC answered most but I believe I had one last set of ?'s that went unanswered, probably b/c the thread dipped onto page 2 before he had time to look around the fora again.
Its an interesting side topic, but its not even really in the EB time frame.
EDIT: No I didn't. TPC hit my big ?'s, and my last post was more of a request for clarification to ensure i was understanding things correctly.

[Shatov]

15% "Pure Turkish"?

Around the birth of Christ the Turks would have inhabited a uniquely nasty, inhospitable area around the present Mongolian-Chinese Turkistan Border, and from the beggning would have been an ethnic mix of Mongoloid, Uralic and Indo-European types. The expansion into densely populated Indo-European areas would have drastically changed their genetic and cultural makeup, such that by the time of Manzekirt its nearly impossible for me to imagine a single ghazi on the field whose background could be called "Pure Turkish"; this would be before the migration into hyper-densely populated southern, northern and western Anatolia. Pure Turkishness exists only in the mind of Grey Wolves. Its a fair bet that your average Russian has about as much or more "Turkish" blood than a Izmir kebab salesman or Antalya journalist, as Russia saw a much longer period of Turkic invasion into (at the time) much smaller population.

The same is true of Iran; how on earth do you quantify how much "Iranian" blood someone has? Iran has been at the center of history since Cyrus the Great, its phenotype diversity must have been off the charts even then.

I'd like to see some evidence of comparative ethnic homogeneity among Greeks and Armenians, too. I very sincerely doubt it in the first case, as the Latins, Christianized Turks, Slavs, Romance-speakers and the like would have had a definite impact on the population; not to mention the recent influx of Pontic and Anatolian Greeks, though they would probably be pretty similar due to the resettlement of Greece with Anatolian Greek-Speakers by the Byzantines after the Slavs invaded.

TPC, I wouldn't worry too much about the looks of Iranian men these days. Totalitarianism tends to bring the ugliest people in any given country to power; just look at every Soviet leader after Stalin. If I were not sleepy or lazy, I'd probably delve into the psychology involved. Hopefully it'll get better when the Ayatollah is powerless and Iran suddenly becomes a less religious country than America.

[Atraphoenix]

OMG, sorry man we killed the topic.

my last notes: Turks married with Romans. Because Islam allows a muslim man to marry a christian or jew woman but not the women.

Plus I know many Greek in Turkey that count themselves as Greek but they are muslim at the same time. Yes In ottoman times devshirmah system muslimized christians to built janissary cohorts.
And if you carefully read ottoman history you can see that many pashas(generals) and viziers were from non-turkic. The most famous one Sokollu Mehmed Pasha who was the grand vizier of Suleyman the magnificent and hisv two successors (Bosnian and Serbian: Mehmed-paša Sokolović,Cyrillic: Мехмед-паша Соколовић) either bosnian or serbian some turkish historians also claims he was crotian.

...

I always wondered what happended to medians after cyrus managed to conquer them.
Though many historians calls medians as another Iranian community like Persians. Some claim the opposite, but sometimes I just stop myself laughing one historian accept schythians as turkic origin like that but I really surprized when I researched etruscan language had many similitaries with old turkish.

anyway but please we should back to topic if you wanna discuss one can open another thread easily. :focus:

[Atraphoenix]

sorry for double post but I just forgot to add images:

http://www.nuveforum.net/attachments/3186d1212556533-yagliboya_354x180-jpg

http://www.nuveforum.net/attachments/3187d1212556533-yagliboya1_500-jpg

http://www.nuveforum.net/attachments/3188d1212556533-yagliboya2_500-jpg

These are the remnants of the buddist temple in afghanistan after taliban assaults.

I think you still remember them.
Just imagine what happenned in ancient times as you can see what is even happening today :shame: :no:

P.S: If anyone knows how to use spoiler instead of just showing exact images to save page and not to fill it, be appriciated !

[Subotan]

Oh yeah, I remember that. The only thing I can think of that was as barbaric (N.B. Probably not the best word to use on the EB forum) was the use of Babylon by the USAF for a helicopter pad, or the destruction of Baktrian treasures by the Taliban. I think I actually cried when I heard about the second one.

[antisocialmunky]

Saddam Hussein demolished the ruins of the Hanging Gardens didn't he?

[Subotan]

Dunno, but Babylon is now Camp Alpha. Ignorant Phillistines.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon#Effects_of_the_U.S._military

[Skullheadhq]

In all honesty, he has non-human lineage, and unfortunately I'm going to aggravate the simian species with this most unfortunate similarity, but Ahmadinejad finds his strongest resemblance amongst chimpanzees.

I too am at times very flabbergasted by how all the handsome male specimen of Iranians suddenly disappeared. How did these short-statured Hezbollah-like lot who dress horribly, suffer from obesity, and let their beards grow like a dense patch of pubic hair get in there? I mean, it's embarassing, some of these guys' heads look like disfigured eggplants.

True! One balloon for flaming islamic dictators :balloon2: