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Goofball
11-20-2008, 17:58
As is Quebec wasn't already hostile enough to business, what with it being the labour union capital of Canada, now this:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081120.wclassactn1120/BNStory/National/home


Class action wins over 'excessive annoyance'


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KIRK MAKIN
Globe and Mail Update
November 20, 2008 at 10:51 AM EST

Polluters in Quebec can be successfully sued for ”excessive annoyances” – even if they have complied with government regulations governing emissions such as noise, odour or dust, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled today.
The Court sided in favour of allowing a class action targeting a St. Lawrence Cement Ltd. plant near Quebec City.
In a 6-0 ruling, the court said that there are two separate streams of potential liability in environmental class actions – one relating to actual wrong-doing, and the other relating to emissions that, despite being legal, exceed reasonable levels of tolerance in a community.
”Even though it appears to be absolute, the right of ownership has limits,” the court said, handing a major triumph to environmentalists and neighbourhoods with polluters in their midst.
Internet Links


Supreme Court of Canada: St. Lawrence Cement Inc. v. Barrette (http://scc.lexum.umontreal.ca/en/2008/2008scc64/2008scc64.html) http://images.theglobeandmail.com/v5/images/icon/icon-popup.gif
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The case raised the important issue of whether a company can be liable for environmental nuisances even if it has complied with regulations, and is strictly not at fault.
The Montreal-based company argued that lower court rulings had disrupted industry by creating uncertainty around the question of whether companies can be found liable even if they are respecting the letter of the law of federal, provincial and municipal statutes governing the environment.
Industry in Quebec now finds itself open to attack from environmentalists on two separate legal fronts.
”Two regimes of civil liability in respect of neighbourhood disturbances should be recognized in Quebec law,” said Mr. Justice Louis LeBel and Madam Justice Marie Deschamps.
”One, under the ordinary rules of civil liability, is based on the wrongful conduct of the person who allegedly caused the disturbances,” they said. ”The second is a regime of no-fault liability based on the extent of the annoyances suffered by the victim for the purposes of art.”
The second branch will be ”based on the annoyances suffered by the victim being excessive, rather than on the conduct of the person who allegedly caused them,” the court said.
In order for a suit to succeed, it said, plaintiffs ”do not require evidence of wrongful conduct to establish the liability of an owner who has caused excessive neighbourhood annoyances.”
The case was the first environmental class action from Quebec to be heard by the Supreme Court. The court said that it represents many similar disputes across the country in an era when citizens no longer accept noxious pollutants as an acceptable irritant.
"They all have a great deal in common,” Judge LeBel and Judge Deschamps said. ”Dust they are, and unto dust they shall return, yet human beings have difficulty resigning themselves to living in dust.
”Sometimes, weary of brooms and buckets of water, they are not unwilling to turn to the courts to get rid of it. This case is proof of that.”
While the case was based on civil statutes particular to Quebec, it is expected to give legal guidance to environmental lawyers in other jurisdictions.
”A scheme of civil liability based on the existence of abnormal neighbourhood disturbances that does not require proven or presumed fault is also consistent with the approaches taken in Canadian common law and in French civil law,” Judge LeBel and Judge Deschamps specified Thursday.
”What is more, such a scheme is consistent with general policy considerations, such as the objective of environmental protection and the application of the polluter-pay principle.
It will also guide companies in their efforts to assess whether they may still be open to civil action based on the nuisance effects of their operations – for example, dust, noise or odour emissions – even if they have complied with environmental regulations.
The case pitted a group of citizens of Beauport, Que., against St. Lawrence Cement Ltd., which had operated its plant since special legislation allowed its creation in 1952.
Friction between the plant and the community began early. By 1955, the two were at war over noise, odour and airborne pollutants that the inhabitants alleged were damaging their property and enjoyment of life.
While the class action was launched in 1994 and the plant actually ceased operating in 1997, the litigation carried on.
Their suit alleged that the company caused annoyance to their way of life, particularly in the form of cement residues which were deposited through the air on their houses, land and cars. They also alleged that dust, odour and noise from the company's operation had caused their property values to drop between 1991 and 1997.
In another victory for environmentalists Thursday, the Supreme Court gave a broad interpretation to the question of which ”neighbours” qualify for compensation in a successful lawsuit of this nature.
”Although the plaintiff must prove a certain geographic proximity between the annoyance and its source, the word must be construed liberally,” the Court said.
A Quebec Superior Court initially allowed the class action, yet absolved the company of any wrongdoing. Nonetheless, it ordered the company to compensate people living near the plant.
The ruling was based on a section of the Quebec Civil Code, the ruling stated that neighbours cannot be expected to suffer annoyances that exceed a reasonable limit of tolerance.
The Superior Court judge also awarded damage awards that varied from zone to zone within the town, reasoning that citizens had suffered different degrees of harm.
The Supreme Court upheld this method Thursday, saying that it is reasonable to divide damages according to who suffered more or less from contaminants.
”Given the trial judge's discretion and the difficulty of assessing environmental problems and annoyances, the trial judge's use of average amounts in determining the quantum of damages was reasonable and appropriate in the circumstances. SLC has not shown that its liability increased as a result, and there is no indication that the amount awarded was based on a wholly erroneous estimate of the injury."
On appeal, the Quebec Court of Appeal overturned the portion of the lower court ruling that had found ‘no-fault liability' on the part of the company.
Using a more conventional interpretation, it nonetheless found that the company was liable for damages over failure to maintain its pollution-control equipment in ”optimal” working order and ordered it to pay damages.
The appeal court based its ruling on a different section of the province's civil code stating that by causing injury to another, a defendant may be liable for reparations.
St. Lawrence Cement based much of its appeal on its contention that it had consistent complied with regulatory standards.
An legal intervenor in the case – the Quebec Business Council on the Environment – argued that companies will be unfairly affected if they dutifully adhere to regulations yet can still be found civilly liable.
The other concurring judges were Madam Justice Beverley McLachlin, Mr. Justice Morris Fish, Madam Justice Rosalie Abella and Madam Justice Louise Charron.



And yet, Quebeckers will whine about industry not wanting to do business there, and demand bigger transfer payments from the feds to offset their loss of tax revenue.

Gotta love it...

Hosakawa Tito
11-20-2008, 18:25
So this just applies to the province of Quebec? What about a company in a border province like Ontario? Let's say a coal fired electric plant's emissions drift from Ontario into Quebec and "excessively annoy" somebody? Smells like an ugly can o' worms.

Louis VI the Fat
11-20-2008, 18:32
Well done Québec! :balloon2: :ca-quebec: :balloon2:

I am pleased to see that Québec is leading the fight in Canada for 21st century industrial standards. Industry serves society, not the other way round.

Child labour was abolished. The 14 hours a day, six days a week horror was abolished. Environmental regulations have been imposed. Safety and Health regulations have been imposed.
At all these steps, industry scaremongered that 'we can't compete if we do!!1' As it turned out, we could. Currently, excessive annoyances are targeted. Great. Modernise, or move to India or Guatemala.
I do not see why industry should be excempt from fair and reasonable standards of behaviour that a natural person must abide with.


Unless I am sorely mistaken, I think this Court decision brings Québec in line with French legal practise. Needless to say, I am entralled to see my Québécois brethren emancipating themselves from the Anglo practise of perennial industrial priviliges. :beam:

Goofball
11-20-2008, 18:39
Well done Québec! :balloon2: :ca-quebec: :balloon2:

I am pleased to see that Québec is leading the fight in Canada for 21st century industrial standards. Industry serves society, not the other way round.

Child labour was abolished. The 14 hours a day, six days a week horror was abolished. Environmental regulations have been imposed. Safety and Health regulations have been imposed.
At all these steps, industry scaremongered that 'we can't compete if we do!!1' As it turned out, we could. Currently, excessive annoyances are targeted. Great. Modernise, or move to India or Guatemala.
I do not see why industry should be excempt from fair and reasonable standards of behaviour that a natural person must abide with.


Unless I am sorely mistaken, I think this Court decision brings Québec in line with French legal practise. Needless to say, I am entralled to see my Québécois brethren emancipating themselves from the Anglo practise of perennial industrial priviliges. :beam:

As I said (and as has been demonstrated historically in the past in Quebec, i.e. textile industry, WalMart), industry won't complain, they just won't stay. They'll go somewhere else.

At any rate, I don't think you read the article in your burst of francophone-solidarity driven exhuberance. This company is complying with all environmental regulations. Yet they are still getting sued as if they have done something wrong.

Louis VI the Fat
11-20-2008, 19:04
At any rate, I don't think you read the article in your burst of francophone-solidarity driven exhuberance. This company is complying with all environmental regulations. Yet they are still getting sued as if they have done something wrong.I did read it all. Which was the very reason for my burst of francophone-solidarity driven exhuberance. Because, if I am not mistaken about French law, this decision brings Québec into compliance with French standards.


industry won't complain, they just won't stay. They'll go somewhere else.Yes they will and good riddance. Have your child labour in Burma. Your environmental destruction in China. Your poor health and safety standards in Columbia. ~:wave:

And if they so desire, the rest of Canada can have their 'neighbours should be expected to suffer annoyances that exceed a reasonable limit of tolerance' and their 'no liability for companies to pay damages over failure to maintain pollution-control equipment in ”optimal” working order'.

Canada is a modern society, and modern societies have industrial standards and standards for neighbourly conduct.
Some companies will leave at the prospect of having to comply with these standards. Others will understand them and take over. This is the lesson from history from the past two hundred years. We'd all still be living in 19th century Dickensian circumstances if we would have given in to industrial scaremongering and threats. Québec seems to understand this and is leading the way. The other provinces can compete with each other for who is willing to bend over backwards the most by lowering health, safety and environmental standards for industry in a bid to be the most competitive. (Although I bet they will never outcompete Nigeria or Bangladesh in these respects)

KarlXII
11-21-2008, 00:47
Oh oui oui baguette?

Ice
11-21-2008, 00:56
I did read it all. Which was the very reason for my burst of francophone-solidarity driven exhuberance. Because, if I am not mistaken about French law, this decision brings Québec into compliance with French standards.

Yes they will and good riddance. Have your child labour in Burma. Your environmental destruction in China. Your poor health and safety standards in Columbia. ~:wave:

Right. So the air will be clean, but there will be no jobs OR TAX REVENUE FOR THE COMMUNITY/PROVINCE.. That's logical.


And if they so desire, the rest of Canada can have their 'neighbours should be expected to suffer annoyances that exceed a reasonable limit of tolerance' and their 'no liability for companies to pay damages over failure to maintain pollution-control equipment in ”optimal” working order'.

Correct.




Canada is a modern society, and modern societies have industrial standards and standards for neighbourly conduct.
Some companies will leave at the prospect of having to comply with these standards. Others will understand them and take over. This is the lesson from history from the past two hundred years. We'd all still be living in 19th century Dickensian circumstances if we would have given in to industrial scaremongering and threats. Québec seems to understand this and is leading the way. The other provinces can compete with each other for who is willing to bend over backwards the most by lowering health, safety and environmental standards for industry in a bid to be the most competitive. (Although I bet they will never outcompete Nigeria or Bangladesh in these respects)[

You are missing the point. The companies were following, according to the article, most of these environmental laws to the letter. Taking a broad interpretation of a vague law and applying it to this situation is absolutely ridiculous. If they laws need changed according the people's wishes then fine. Do it the correct way through legislation. This is crap.

lars573
11-21-2008, 19:42
Kush I think Louis read the entire article. Including the parts at the end that Goofball left off. Like how the company had special legislation passed so it could open in 1952. And that by 1955 the community and the plant were fighting over noise and emissoins. Or that the ceased operation in 1997. Or that this suit has been going on since 1994.

Rhyfelwyr
11-21-2008, 20:02
Right. So the air will be clean, but there will be no jobs OR TAX REVENUE FOR THE COMMUNITY/PROVINCE.. That's logical.

Should communities in the developed world have to suffer abusive behaviour by employers just because they need to compete for investment with rival communities throughout the country?

HoreTore
11-22-2008, 22:01
Right. So the air will be clean, but there will be no jobs OR TAX REVENUE FOR THE COMMUNITY/PROVINCE.. That's logical.

Bah. Some may leave, others will come. We've increased wages, decreased working hours, increased enviromental laws, etc all the time over the past century. Every time, the industry has cried for the end of the world. Yet all the time, our wealth has steadily increased. And if I may be so bold, it's because of laws like this.

This one isn't going to change that. Just like the thousands of other laws we have passed didn't change it.



and Louis, I love your new lefty style.... you touch me in ways I've never been touched before... Don't ever go back. Ever.

Kralizec
11-23-2008, 19:58
”One, under the ordinary rules of civil liability, is based on the wrongful conduct of the person who allegedly caused the disturbances. The second is a regime of no-fault liability based on the extent of the annoyances suffered by the victim ... ”

The second branch will be ”based on the annoyances suffered by the victim being excessive, rather than on the conduct of the person who allegedly caused them,” the court said.

This doesn't seem like a bad approach on paper, but from the rest of the article I get the impression that it was used to cave in to NIMBY sentiments.

Maybe the people who lived there in '55 should have gotten compensation. After more than two generations down the line, though...

Louis VI the Fat
11-23-2008, 22:00
The companies were following, according to the article, most of these environmental laws to the letter. Taking a broad interpretation of a vague law and applying it to this situation is absolutely ridiculous. If they laws need changed according the people's wishes then fine. Do it the correct way through legislation. This is crap.It is the law. The principle is codified in Civil Law legislation and found in Common Law precedent. The principle is that one man's rights end where another one's begins. One man's property rights end where another one's begins.

In our respective bouts of anti and pro Québec sentiments, Goofball and I overlooked something. Namely, that this case simply brings Québec in line with the legal systems of both anglophone Canada and France. In fact, standard practice in both systems were a consideration for this verdict.

Far from this being a case of 'communist Québec' being unfriendly to business, this case is another step in Québec emancipating itself from being a toilet where English Canada can dump its unwanted industry.


So long, Canada, you'll have to take your craps on your own territory. Can't :daisy: over the fence and use Québec for that anymore. ~:wave:




Comparative Review of Canadian Common Law and French Civil Law

[76] At this stage in our analysis of liability in respect of neighbourhood disturbances, we believe it will be helpful to consider how certain other legal systems approach the same kinds of problems. We will therefore briefly review the solutions adopted in Canadian common law and French civil law.

[77] At common law, nuisance is a field of liability that focuses on the harm suffered rather than on prohibited conduct (A. M. Linden and B. Feldthusen, Canadian Tort Law (8th ed. 2006), at p. 559; L. N. Klar, Tort Law (2nd ed. 1996), at p. 535). Nuisance is defined as unreasonable interference with the use of land (Linden and Feldthusen, at p. 559; Klar, at p. 535). Whether the interference results from intentional, negligent or non‑faulty conduct is of no consequence provided that the harm can be characterized as a nuisance (Linden and Feldthusen, at p. 559). The interference must be intolerable to an ordinary person (p. 568). This is assessed by considering factors such as the nature, severity and duration of the interference, the character of the neighbourhood, the sensitivity of the plaintiff’s use and the utility of the activity (p. 569). The interference must be substantial, which means that compensation will not be awarded for trivial annoyances (Linden and Feldthusen, at p. 569; Klar, at p. 536).

[78] In France, the Court of Cassation accepts as a principle of law that [translation] “no one may cause an abnormal neighbourhood disturbance to another” (J. Carbonnier, Droit civil (2004), vol. II, at p. 1785; P. Malinvaud, Droit des obligations (8th ed. 2003), at p. 404; Viney and Jourdain, at pp. 1069‑70). This principle is not based on art. 1382 of the Civil Code (Malinvaud, at p. 404; Viney and Jourdain, at p. 1069). Liability for damage resulting from abnormal neighbourhood disturbances is thus independent of fault, and a finding of excessive injury or abnormal disturbance is all that is needed to trigger it (Viney and Jourdain, at pp. 1069 and 1079). However, trivial annoyances caused by relations between neighbours will not trigger liability (Starck, Roland and Boyer, at p. 169).

[79] Thus, in both these legal systems, a scheme of no‑fault liability in respect of neighbourhood disturbances is accepted in one form or another. Their schemes seem analogous to the one that can be inferred from art. 976 C.C.Q.

Papewaio
11-24-2008, 02:08
Sounds like the ruling might not hold up the letter of the law, it certainly upholds the spirit of the law and hence justice far more nicely.

The law if just sees everyone as equal. So their is no good reason that a company should be allowed leeway within the law because it might effect its bottom line. Local people should be allowed justice, even if the plant has been their for generations. Age should not exclude a company for complying with laws or community standards. To say otherwise is to state that all ancient companies may use lead paint, child labour and slavery.

Let the companies come screaming and kicking into the 21st century. If a company wants all the benefits as a person on paper, they need to be upheld to the same standards as the rest of the community. That includes the golden rule and not to curtail the freedoms and bounty of others.

Also most law Gaelic or otherwise has the 'reasonable person' litmus test. Being would a reasonable person in the same situation act in such a manner or accept the situation at hand. If you think the average person is not accepting of pollutants then the pollution must be with all reasonable ability curtailed.

I am more interested how the special legislation was allowed in the first place, whose palms were greased for that? Is it okay that they health of future citizens be impeded because of the graft of prior ones?

Also just because a company upholds the environmental laws, does not mean it was upholding the good neighbour laws. Just because someone drives a Prius does not absolve him of parking tickets or running someone over.

lars573
11-24-2008, 05:12
Far from this being a case of 'communist Québec' being unfriendly to business, this case is another step in Québec emancipating itself from being a toilet where English Canada can dump its unwanted industry.


So long, Canada, you'll have to take your craps on your own territory. Can't :daisy: over the fence and use Québec for that anymore. ~:wave:
:laugh4:
Visit Saint John New Brunswick where there is both an oil refinery and pulp mill in the center of the city. And the city water sources are so unclean that the water smells like it came from a public pool. Then try and make that crack. Or google Sydney tar ponds.

Ice
11-26-2008, 02:39
Kush I think Louis read the entire article. Including the parts at the end that Goofball left off. Like how the company had special legislation passed so it could open in 1952. And that by 1955 the community and the plant were fighting over noise and emissoins. Or that the ceased operation in 1997. Or that this suit has been going on since 1994.

I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to in my previous post.

Bah. Some may leave, others will come. We've increased wages, decreased working hours, increased enviromental laws, etc all the time over the past century. Every time, the industry has cried for the end of the world. Yet all the time, our wealth has steadily increased. And if I may be so bold, it's because of laws like this.

This one isn't going to change that. Just like the thousands of other laws we have passed didn't change it.

May I see a shred of proof to back up this assertion? It doesn't even have to be a link.

I'm sure you are also aware that correlation doesn't always equal causation as I've said before.



It is the law. The principle is codified in Civil Law legislation and found in Common Law precedent. The principle is that one man's rights end where another one's begins. One man's property rights end where another one's begins.


I'm aware of how the law is theoretically suppose to work. I believe that the courts have taken this system, which allows for a great deal of leeway on the court's part, and blown it out of proportion.


In our respective bouts of anti and pro Québec sentiments, Goofball and I overlooked something. Namely, that this case simply brings Québec in line with the legal systems of both anglophone Canada and France. In fact, standard practice in both systems were a consideration for this verdict.


I didn't know French law worked like that. It's nice to know.


Far from this being a case of 'communist Québec' being unfriendly to business, this case is another step in Québec emancipating itself from being a toilet where English Canada can dump its unwanted industry.

*Shrugs*

If you don't want the industry, then don't cry when the effects of such said action occur.


So long, Canada, you'll have to take your craps on your own territory. Can't over the fence and use Québec for that anymore.

This will actually make the rest of Canada less dependent on Quebec which would be a bad thing IMHO.

lars573
11-26-2008, 07:30
I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to in my previous post.
The entire debate you and Louis were having. Mostly that it's all academic. The jobs your arguing for were lost 11 years ago, and the environmental impact he's arguing against stopped then too.



This will actually make the rest of Canada less dependent on Quebec which would be a bad thing IMHO.
As far as the manufacturing sector goes Ontario is the power house (which is why it's taking a huge economic beating in the current recession). Quebec is a respectable second.