RAF Boss to be Released

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7745705.stm)

Thoughts? I'm not sure if I feel comfortable with this - I don't think he should ever be released.

[rory_20_uk]

Ideally he should be shot.

~:smoking:

[Rhyfelwyr]

I'm reading the Communist Manifesto as I post here...

If he has only served the minimal sentence, why would he have to be released? Also how can someone who commits nine murders be released within his lifetime?

[Crazed Rabbit]

Five life sentences, so he gets about 5.2 years per life sentence?


"A major consideration was the question of whether it could be feared that Christian Klar would commit significant criminal acts again," but the judges decided there was no evidence he would, the court said in a statement.

And actually making him serve out his sentence wasn't?

Stupid.

CR

[Seamus Fermanagh]

My first thought was "what in Heaven's name was the CO of the Royal Air Force being detained for?"

Then, after a quick scan at the OP, I realized both that my question ended in a preposition (poor form that) and the the RAF being addressed was what I always called Baader-Meinhoff.

Why that cretin should be released escapes me -- pardon the pun. Either you believe him to be a murdering thug, in which case you err on the side of caution and keep him jailed OR you believe him to be a revolutionary, in which case you must acknowledge that he lost his bid for power -- and the price for that is well known.

Neither view suggests this reject should ever need to see the outside of a cell again. On the other hand, if they'd really like to commute his sentence, I could suggest this....

Release him in the middle of the Eglund AFB swamps where our spec-forces folks train. Give him 24 hours and let the SEALS loose. If he can make it off the base he's free.

Then all we have to do make some popcorn and watch the predator footage.

[Papewaio]

Parole should not be easily available for terrorism, mass-murder, serial killers, serial rapists... essentially any who would attack the state and/or multiple people.

They should prove not only that they have reformed, but that they are model prisoners and citizens to be. Any black mark and nope, try next time.

Make an example of them and err on the side of caution.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Ideally he should be shot.

~:smoking:

Twice, ideally while walking down the stairs of the Lefortovo...it is almost tempting to turn him over to the NPD for a weekend, no questions asked.

But releasing him? :wall:

[CountArach]

He shouldn't be released. He took lives and that is the worst thing that any human being can do.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Most of the former RAF members have been released already. None have relapsed, and this doesn't seem very likely. Society has changed enourmously, radical left-wing terrorism is gone. All the sixties/seventies red terrorism groups have disbanded themselves, except where it is tied to territorial claims (ETA, somewhat the IRA).
Plus the Soviet Union and East Germany have no use for Western ideologues and useful idiots anymore.



Either you believe him to be a murdering thug, in which case you err on the side of caution and keep him jailed OR you believe him to be a revolutionary Or, the third option, you believe society to be wrong. Which a lot of people believed. The RAF shook West Germany to the core, tested it to the limit. I think that about a third of Germans at the time did not see this episode in terms of terrorist thugs versus a legitimate state. This anti-capitalist democracy line of thinking has virtually disappeared. Together, it should be noted, with a lot of anti-democratic sentiment from the right.

(On the downside, at least in the seventies anti-democracy usually implied one had read Marx and Adorno. Backwards. In a foreign language. Nowadays, anti-democratic usually means 'semi-literate internet populist'. O tempora, o mores...:shame:)

[Louis VI the Fat]

it is almost tempting to turn him over to the NPD for a weekend, no questions asked. I would say Germany has witnessed enough extreme leftwing versus extreme rightwing violence for the next thousand years. No need to turn him over to Nazis. Nazis have been the legitimisation for the RAF, Communism has been the legitimisation for the Nazis. Meanwhile, normal people are not heard over their exchanges of mutual insults and end up crushed in between.

How about we build a time machine, go back 150 years, and send all extremist Germans to Antarctica to wage their battles there? :idea2:

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Most of the former RAF members have been released already. None have relapsed, and this doesn't seem very likely. Society has changed enourmously, radical left-wing terrorism is gone. All the sixties/seventies red terrorism groups have disbanded themselves, except where it is tied to territorial claims (ETA, somewhat the IRA).
Plus the Soviet Union and East Germany have no use for Western ideologues and useful idiots anymore.

The likelihood of reoffending should not even enter into the equation. The man tore families a part, murdered people in cold blood and his organization did so in excessively brutal ways. If there is one single person in the world who actually deserves Guantanumo, he is that person.


How about we build a time machine, go back 150 years, and send all extremist Germans to Antarctica to wage their battles there?

Send every extremist there. The KKK, Black Panthers, communists, Nazis, terrorist organizations everywhere, fence the whole continent off and let them sort themselves out.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Five life sentences, so he gets about 5.2 years per life sentence?



And actually making him serve out his sentence wasn't?

Stupid.

CR

Convicted of involvement in 9 murders and serves 26 years = 2.88 per life taken. My God, people serve more time *3 years* for felony DWI here. I can't imagine that the victims' families can be feeling too pleased with this misguided decision.

[Louis VI the Fat]

The likelihood of reoffending should not even enter into the equation. The man tore families a part, murdered people in cold blood and his organization did so in excessively brutal ways. If there is one single person in the world who actually deserves Guantanumo, he is that person.I wouldn't mind seeing him in Gitmo...

...together with all NPD members. ~;)


Imprisonment is for prevention and revenge. Prevention seems unnecessary. I just pointed it out for arguments sake.
More importantly for me is indeed revenge. Personally I have my usual dual thoughts. Half of me wants blood and revenge, half of me thinks releasing people in their fifties for what they did in their twenties is what a civilised society does.

Apart from this personal struglle, more in general, I think it is a commendable sign of German maturity that the RAF members have been mostly released by now. There is no more fear of them, no more breeding ground for them, no more East Germany to support them, and no more nazis to imprison them.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I wouldn't mind seeing him in Gitmo...

...together with all NPD members. ~;)

...who committed terrorist acts, yes.

[LittleGrizzly]

Im glad im not the only one who wondered what the royal air force boss had done!

If he isn't a threat anymore then i do see a good reason to release him, 26 years for 9 murders does seem a bit low, but if he's an old man that isn't a threat anymore is there really any need for more punishment...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

If he isn't a threat anymore then i do see a good reason to release him, 26 years for 9 murders does seem a bit low, but if he's an old man that isn't a threat anymore is there really any need for more punishment...

He is fifty-six and guilty of some of the most henious crimes in post-Second World War German history.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Im glad im not the only one who wondered what the royal air force boss had done!

If he isn't a threat anymore then i do see a good reason to release him, 26 years for 9 murders does seem a bit low, but if he's an old man that isn't a threat anymore is there really any need for more punishment...

Punishment has nothing to do with threats.

CR

[Tribesman]

Same response to the same topic posted here last time one of them was released .
Yes its terrible isn't it , but if you a do a deal with terrorists that offers early release in exchange for disbanding their group then they get early release .

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Same response to the same topic posted here last time one of them was released .
Yes its terrible isn't it , but if you a do a deal with terrorists that offers early release in exchange for disbanding their group then they get early release .

Which deal? I was under the impression that the group was officially disbanded in 1998 with this:

"Vor fast 28 Jahren, am 14. Mai 1970, entstand in einer Befreiungsaktion die RAF. Heute beenden wir dieses Projekt. Die Stadtguerilla in Form der RAF ist nun Geschichte."

[rasoforos]

It amazes me how many people express opinions about killing him. He certainly should not feel alone in this world...

...probably 90% of us would justify the killing of other people based on religious, ideological, moral and other grounds. Fortunatelly most of us are not paranoid enough/have the guts to act on such impulses.

Yes, the sentence is silly. Life imprisonment should mean life imprisonment or at least jail until he is too old and frail to kill. And he deserves a life sentence. But we have enough unjustified 'martyrs' in this world to add more.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

It amazes me how many people express opinions about killing him. He certainly should not feel alone in this world...

...probably 90% of us would justify the killing of other people based on religious, ideological, moral and other grounds. Fortunatelly most of us are not paranoid enough/have the guts to act on such impulses.

It has nothing to do with his ideology. He should never, ever get out of prison. I don't wish death on him either, but if someone were to quietly bump him off, I don't think you'd find many tears being shed - except maybe among Die Linke.

[HoreTore]

Being from a country without life sentences, and supporting that, I find it very easy to give a definite "yes" on this.

I really don't see much sense in keeping people locked up for more than 20 years...

[Tribesman]

Which deal? I was under the impression that the group was officially disbanded in 1998 with this
The deal put forward by the german government in 92

[Fragony]

He isn't even sorry for what he did.

[Tribesman]

He isn't even sorry for what he did.
Mohnhaupt didn't say sorry , she still got released .
Look at all the terrorists released in the 6 counties , did they say sorry ?

[JR-]

It amazes me how many people express opinions about killing him. He certainly should not feel alone in this world...

...probably 90% of us would justify the killing of other people based on religious, ideological, moral and other grounds. Fortunatelly most of us are not paranoid enough/have the guts to act on such impulses.

Yes, the sentence is silly. Life imprisonment should mean life imprisonment or at least jail until he is too old and frail to kill. And he deserves a life sentence. But we have enough unjustified 'martyrs' in this world to add more.
you are either for the death penalty or against, but i agree insomuch as he was sentanced and he has served that sentence, much as i would have preferred a much stiffer punishment.

[Fragony]

Mohnhaupt didn't say sorry , she still got released .
Look at all the terrorists released in the 6 counties , did they say sorry ?

Yeah they were that sadly makes it hard to keep this one locked up, but I don't think it's right to excuse someone for something he isn't really sorry about. They still stand firmly behind their actions, maybe it is to deny them some twisted sort of martyrship I don't know.

[Strike For The South]

In Texas he would've been dead 24 years ago.

[Louis VI the Fat]

In Texas he would've been dead 24 years ago.In Texas, he wouldn't have been in the first place.

Which I don't mean as a silly remark. This is rather basically what I meant in some of my earlier posts. The thought of a Texas RAF is as nonsensical as current Norwegian Lutheran terrorism. The RAF belonged to a specific place and a specific time.

[Strike For The South]

In Texas, he wouldn't have been in the first place.

Which I don't mean as a silly remark. This is rather basically what I meant in some of my earlier posts. The thought of a Texas RAF is as nonsensical as current Norwegian Lutheran terrorism. The RAF belonged to a specific place and a specific time.

So you're saying the RAF was a reaction against the NAZIs? Were there people making sure the Fascists could never take hold again? I don't pretend to know anything about Europe but I think Ive got it.

[Louis VI the Fat]

So you're saying the RAF was a reaction against the NAZIs? Were there people making sure the Fascists could never take hold again? I don't pretend to know anything about Europe but I think Ive got it.No, not the nazis. (Although there is a reason why red terrorism struck Italy and Germany much harder than elsewhere in the 1970s)

Erm...I tried to find a good link. To no avail. If you are really interested, I am sure there are some good links around but I can't find any right now. I would share some of my ideas, but it would be like trying to explain why the Black Panthers came about in America in the 1960's. Can't do it in a few sentences. It would take too much time for something that a fine essay that undoubtly floats around somewhere on the interwebs wouldn't explain much better and with much greater insight.

[Strike For The South]

No, not the nazis. (Although there is a reason why red terrorism struck Italy and Germany much harder than elsewhere in the 1970s)

Erm...I tried to find a good link. To no avail. If you are really interested, I am sure there are some good links around but I can't find any right now. I would share some of my ideas, but it would be like trying to explain why the Black Panthers came about in America in the 1960's. Can't do it in a few sentences. It would take too much time for something that a fine essay that undoubtly floats around somewhere on the interwebs wouldn't explain much better and with much greater insight.

I guess I'll look it up on my own. :smash: I will be back to argue with you.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Strike:

Do you realize how few Texans would ever have bothered with any of the stuff Horkheimer and Adorno cranked out? Much less internalized it for motivation/life goal purposes?

Louis is asserting that the intellectual zeitgeist that made such movements possible is so far from the US experience -- especially as crystalized in that little slice of Heaven between the Rio Grande and the Red River -- that it would be unthinkable for it to have occurred there. Remember, about the best we managed on those lines was the Simbionese Liberation Army, and they were little more than bank robbers with a Che Guevera sense of fashion.

By the way, I thought Texas was averaging 8-10 years from sentencing to execution, whereas your post implied about 3-4 years.

[Kralizec]

Germany's history might make the actions of the RAF more understandable, but not less culpable and dispicable. Christian Klar doesn't deserve to be set free, and neither did the other RAF members who have been released these past years.
Recidivism is just one factor that ought to be considered. I don't think the people involved are going to reorganize the RAF, but the only reason they've dismissed violence as a means to advance their views is because they now realize that the opportunity (if it ever existed) has long since passed.
I've read that he was involved in the decision to disband the RAF in 1998, wich is a valid reason if true. The article I read didn't have details but I'm sceptical of how useful his help was, especially because the RAF had practically stopped operating about two years after the reunification.

PS: can anyone tell me if Der Baader Meinhof Komplex is a good film?

[Strike For The South]

Strike:

Do you realize how few Texans would ever have bothered with any of the stuff Horkheimer and Adorno cranked out? Much less internalized it for motivation/life goal purposes?

Louis is asserting that the intellectual zeitgeist that made such movements possible is so far from the US experience -- especially as crystalized in that little slice of Heaven between the Rio Grande and the Red River -- that it would be unthinkable for it to have occurred there. Remember, about the best we managed on those lines was the Simbionese Liberation Army, and they were little more than bank robbers with a Che Guevera sense of fashion.

By the way, I thought Texas was averaging 8-10 years from sentencing to execution, whereas your post implied about 3-4 years.

I understand that a leftist revo group would never take root here. I was just trying to highlight the criminal justice system not so much his revo tendencies. Nine innocents is nine innocents.

I also agree that Europe has followed a very different path. I have no idea what the Simbionese liberation Army is. Im from a different generation!

Now I'm simply trying to find out what this RAF really was.


The TDCJ is a clusterintercourse. The average is ten years however we have a system that speeds you up the more heinous your crime (ever hear the Ron White quote?) So I'd imagine a communist who killed nine people in the public eye may break the record (8 months)

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I have no idea what the Simbionese liberation Army is. Im from a different generation!{/QUOTE]

Google "Patty Hearst" and "abduction." You should get plenty of stuff to learn about that particular cluster of numbskulls.

[QUOTE=Strike For The South]The TDCJ is a clusterintercourse. The average is ten years however we have a system that speeds you up the more heinous your crime (ever hear the Ron White quote?) So I'd imagine a communist who killed nine people in the public eye may break the record (8 months)

Well, now that you put it that way, such a perp would pretty much ring all the bells needed for your typical Texan group to stamp "paid" on his account quickly.