Linguistics discussion (split from new factions thread)

[Elmetiacos]

And what language would you like us to use? Dacian and Thracian is unknown beyond a few non-military terms. Greek is the closest we can get, unfortunately.

Actually there probably are enough Dacian and Thracian words to name units with simple names like "horse men" "sword men" and so on, but the real problem is a total lack of knowledge of how you put these words together grammatically. Not a single coherent sentence of Dacian survives and it's on a dead branch of Indo-European, with no descedants like Celtic or Germanic to help with reconstruction. That said, the EB team did manage to make some Lusitanian names based on three inscriptions about sheep and pigs... ~;)

Edit by bovi: This is in response to this post (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=2065628&postcount=1075) by Foot in the new factions thread, concerning another somewhat off-topic discussion about the language the Getai speak and which units they have.

[Sarcasm]

And bulls. Let's not forget bulls.

Couldn't help yourself for long could you?

[Foot]

Actually there probably are enough Dacian and Thracian words to name units with simple names like "horse men" "sword men" and so on, but the real problem is a total lack of knowledge of how you put these words together grammatically. Not a single coherent sentence of Dacian survives and it's on a dead branch of Indo-European, with no descedants like Celtic or Germanic to help with reconstruction. That said, the EB team did manage to make some Lusitanian names based on three inscriptions about sheep and pigs... ~;)

And an entire germanic voicemod and name list based on ... nothing at all. Both the germanic and lusitanian language stuff were based on reconstructions from languages we do know about and were related. We cannot do the same for the Thracian/Dacian as, as you said, it is a dead branch of indo-european.

Foot

[Elmetiacos]

And an entire germanic voicemod and name list based on ... nothing at all. Both the germanic and lusitanian language stuff were based on reconstructions from languages we do know about and were related. We cannot do the same for the Thracian/Dacian as, as you said, it is a dead branch of indo-european.
Germanic is an order of magnitude easier to reconstruct because we have all its descendants; there may not be significant epigraphic remains as there are for Gaulish and Celtiberian, but it's a whole lot more than 'nothing'. Even the few words of Lusitanian will get linguists talking - the word Porcom, for instance, tells us that Lusitanian isn't Celtic, and belongs to the Centum rather than the Satem branch of Indo-European. Although there's more Daco-Thracian vocabulary than Lusitanian, we're even more in the dark about the grammar... I'd hazard a guess that it suffixed the definite article, but I could be talking crap there.

[lobf]

I'm no linguist, so there's probably a sensible answer to this, but how do you make such large assumptions about a language based on one word? I mean, English is chock-full of Latin words, but we're no Latin language. So could you enlighten me?

[Elmetiacos]

I'm no linguist, so there's probably a sensible answer to this, but how do you make such large assumptions about a language based on one word? I mean, English is chock-full of Latin words, but we're no Latin language. So could you enlighten me?
It's actually only assumptions about the word, but based on the fact that it would extremely weird for people to borrow someone else's word for something as familiar as a pig. Without wanting to take this thread too far in another direction, Celtic lost the proto-Indo-European P, so to take two modern examples Welsh llawr is cognate with English floor and Irish lán is cognate with French plein. That doesn't mean there are no Ps in Celtic, only that an original PIE P wouldn't be there. PORCOM obviously has one. All languages lost PIE k' but the Centum (Italic, Celtic, Germanic) turned it into a K sound while the Satem (Slavonic, Persian, Indic) turned it into an S sound. So because PIE *pork'o has become porcom not *porsom we can tell this.

EDIT - that's "Centum" not "Centrum" - they didn't name a branch of Indo-European after vitamin supplements...

[Viking_Wårlord]

It's actually only assumptions about the word, but based on the fact that it would extremely weird for people to borrow someone else's word for something as familiar as a pig. Without wanting to take this thread too far in another direction, Celtic lost the proto-Indo-European P, so to take two modern examples Welsh llawr is cognate with English floor and Irish lán is cognate with French plein. That doesn't mean there are no Ps in Celtic, only that an original PIE P wouldn't be there. PORCOM obviously has one. All languages lost PIE k' but the Centum (Italic, Celtic, Germanic) turned it into a K sound while the Satem (Slavonic, Persian, Indic) turned it into an S sound. So because PIE *pork'o has become porcom not *porsom we can tell this.

EDIT - that's "Centum" not "Centrum" - they didn't name a branch of Indo-European after vitamin supplements...


English is a Germanic language, you can even get an example on wikipedia...
compare this http://ang.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C4%ABwu_Englisc_spr%C7%A3c to german and you'll be surprised how similar that is to german!:whip:

[Viking_Wårlord]

And an entire germanic voicemod and name list based on ... nothing at all. Both the germanic and lusitanian language stuff were based on reconstructions from languages we do know about and were related. We cannot do the same for the Thracian/Dacian as, as you said, it is a dead branch of indo-european.

Foot

The germanic words aren't based on 'nothing at all', you based it on the swabian and Frisian dialects wich are both part of the western and northern branches of Germanic languages.

[bovi]

It's actually only assumptions about the word, but based on the fact that it would extremely weird for people to borrow someone else's word for something as familiar as a pig.
This is not inconceivable. For instance the English word bag was taken into the language from Norse. This is also a very familiar thing.

You can see the etymology on http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bag.

[Tellos Athenaios]

This is not inconceivable. For instance the English word bag was taken into the language from Norse. This is also a very familiar thing.

You can see the etymology on http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bag.

Yep, think about the English mouton, pork, brother...? It may not have been as much of a loan word as a new vogue?

[Ibrahim]

Yep, think about the English mouton, pork, brother...? It may not have been as much of a loan word as a new vogue?

It even happens in Arabic: try jundiy, for example (pl. Jund), batreeq(patriarch), grafe(tie), firdaws(heaven), and bashar(people). all are used regularly in the arab world, but none are native to arabic. 2 are persian, one is hebrew, one is greek, and one is french.

the inevitable conclusion: words get borrowed, even if they are for casual purposes. (I'll admit grafe is from my dialect, not written arabic)

[paullus]

i'll note we're already using several getic/thracian terms where they exist (eg mezenai), and we'd like to include more where they verifiably exist (ie, we're not going to use terms from questionable sources).

[Viking_Wårlord]

Yep, think about the English mouton, pork, brother...? It may not have been as much of a loan word as a new vogue?

Brother is a Germanic word.:skull:

[bovi]

Brother is a Germanic word.:skull:
Who said it wasn't? And what is that skull doing there?

[ziegenpeter]

Tellos Athenaios mentioned it at the same place as mouton and porc. It can suggest, that he thinks brother is a loan word.
Is it? I don't think so.

[Viking_Wårlord]

Who said it wasn't? And what is that skull doing there?

Well the 'skull' word obviously gave skål,as Vikings(like celts) also drinked into the skulls of their dead ennemies!
So it's also a Germanic word...:idea2:

[Viking_Wårlord]

Tellos Athenaios mentioned it at the same place as mouton and porc. It can suggest, that he thinks brother is a loan word.
Is it? I don't think so.

The word 'brother' comes from the old English(or ålde Englisc) 'broðor'...

Welcome>Wilcume
thee(you)>Þê
sister>sweostor
Hail!>Hal!

[ziegenpeter]

The word 'brother' comes from the old English(or ålde Englisc) 'broðor'...

which comes from germanic "*broþer"... but lets get back to topic.

I'd actually love another gemanic faction and for the gameplay balance in this region it would make totally sense. Unfortunatly these aren't criteria for a new faction.
I think its very hard to do the research for germanic cultures...

PS: Never thought of a common etymology of skål and skull...:beam:

[Cyrus]

The word 'brother' comes from the old English(or ålde Englisc) 'broðor'...

Welcome>Wilcume
thee(you)>Þê
sister>sweostor
Hail!>Hal!
no not really, it's a indo-european word, it's found in almost every modern western language, eg. latin frater,anchent greek phrater,italian fratello, and it went in the germanic language and consecuently inglish starting as brohtir, and evolving in modern day brother.

[Viking_Wårlord]

no not really, it's a indo-european word, it's found in almost every modern western language, eg. latin frater,anchent greek phrater,italian fratello, and it went in the germanic language and consecuently inglish starting as brohtir, and evolving in modern day brother.

I was talking about It's germanic form...about indo-european words:
Father(english)>Vater(german)>far(danish)>Pater(latin)>père(french)>padre(spanish)
>पिता/fatir(hindi)>pakir/(Persian/farsi)پدر

:idea2:

[Elmetiacos]

This is not inconceivable. For instance the English word bag was taken into the language from Norse. This is also a very familiar thing.

You can see the etymology on http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bag.
That's based on the false assumption that English is the lineal descendant of Old English of the 8th Century and everything since then is "foreign".

[bovi]

No, it's based on the assumption that they did not use the word before the Vikings came and they started using it when they did. A sack wasn't a new concept at that time, and still a new word was taken in for it.

[Wausser]

I was talking about It's germanic form...about indo-european words:
Father(english)>Vater(german)>far(danish)>Pater(latin)>père(french)>padre(spanish)
>पिता/fatir(hindi)>pakir/(Persian/farsi)پدر

:idea2:

vader in dutch :juggle2:

[Cartaphilus]

Some interesting links about the Indo-European.

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/

An Indo-European "translator":
http://indo-european.info/2008/01/01/indo-european-online-translator-dictionary-version-10-post-wlqo/


Obviously the words you have mentioned are all of Indo-European origin.
They are simple words, and have evolved very little in thousands of years.

[Cartaphilus]

That's based on the false assumption that English is the lineal descendant of Old English of the 8th Century and everything since then is "foreign".

Yeah, but the old english sounds awesome:


Hige sceal þe heardra, heorte þe cenre,
mod sceal þe mare, þe ure mægen lytlað.

The battle of Maldon is one of my favourite poems.

[Viking_Wårlord]

Some interesting links about the Indo-European.

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/

An Indo-European "translator":
http://indo-european.info/2008/01/01/indo-european-online-translator-dictionary-version-10-post-wlqo/


Obviously the words you have mentioned are all of Indo-European origin.
They are simple words, and have evolved very little in thousands of years.

Though the words I have used are of the most commonly used,indeed, orphans are rare nowadays...:no:

[Viking_Wårlord]

For what's of military terms....here we go:

war>crīgā(gave german 'krieg' and danish 'krig')
fight>skermō(gave the word 'skirmish')
die>dhewə (gave Deyja(old norse))
kill>colḗjō (nothing to explain here)
destroy>dheukō (here neither...)

I also may remind that, there was no 'proto-indo european' as a single dialect but many languages composed this 'proto-indi-european language' hence some words gave latin,others gave slavic,baltic,germanic and so on...:juggle2:

[General Appo]

When did this become The Linguistics Thread?

[bovi]

Right now :beam:!

[General Appo]

Ha, the mods obey my suggestions as law. As is their duty.

[Elmetiacos]

No, it's based on the assumption that they did not use the word before the Vikings came and they started using it when they did. A sack wasn't a new concept at that time, and still a new word was taken in for it.
So do you argue that there were no pigs in Portugal until the Romans introduced them?

[bovi]

So do you argue that there were no pigs in Portugal until the Romans introduced them?
Quite the opposite. I argue that despite that there was a great familiarity with a thing, be it a pig or a sack, people can take into their language another word for it. My argument is that in Britain, they certainly had bags, but didn't call them bags until there came other people who called them such. Similarly, Portugal had pigs and could start calling them something else than they used to, when other people came who used that new word.

[Cartaphilus]

In fact in Lusitanian language pig is "porcom", that it is very similar to the latin "porcum".

The main theory about the origin of that language relates it to the celtic family, but other theory (prof. Villar et alia) relates it to italian languages. For now, we don't have enough texts to decide the question.

[Elmetiacos]

Borrowing words for domestic animals is something not done, unless the language community in question didn't have that animal in the first place, an acknowledged fact used to assess the lifestyles of historical peoples. This isn't me saying this, it's generally recognised. If you say PORCOM is borrowed from Latin, you'll need a very good reason for saying it.

There are people out there who try and make Lusitanian a Celtic language, and their usual argument is that it must be a dialect of Celtic where PIE P never disappeared at all or a dialect of Celtic where the shift stopped halfway and P should be read as Φ. They like to point out that there are Celtic placenames and tribal names in the Lusitani territory. To me, this suggests that you have a Celtic or Celticised ruling class while the rest of the population speaks an "Old European" language, so that Lusitanian is in the same position as English after the Norman Conquest and doesn't need to be squeezed into the Celtic family.

[bovi]

That is different then. I have not the expertise in the area to argue against the position that specifically domestic animals never have new names imported. I cannot recall any example to the contrary at least. I was questioning the statement that something "as familiar as a pig" couldn't get a new name, which there are examples against.

[Elmetiacos]

Villar opposes classifying Lusitanian as Celtic, while Untermann is the main Celticist.

Grab a pdf of K T Witczak's 1999 essay on Lusitanian and the two names Laebo and Reve specifically here: http://emerita.revistas.csic.es/index.php/emerita/article/download/185/186. It seems to come down firmly in the anti-Celtic Lusitanian camp. There's some more in E-Keltoi vol. 6.

[Cartaphilus]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG/644px-Ethnographic_Iberia_200_BCE.PNG

In spanish wikipedia we can find this map.


I don't know if Villar is right or wrong about the lusitanian question, but I strongly recommend his job "Los indoeuropeos y los orígenes de Europa" (the indo-european and the origins of Europe).
If there's someone that speaks spanish here, this book is a "must".
It's edited by the prestigious Editorial Gredos.
I don't know if it is translated to other languages.
AWESOME BOOK.

[Viking_Wårlord]

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Germanic_tribes_(750BC-1AD).png
This is how the first Germanic dialects evolved,eventually,these dialects reached certain places by the tribes' neverlasting migrations....

And talking about migration...

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Karte_v%C3%B6lkerwanderung.jpg

These migrations started the beginning of what we could now call 'european culture' though dna tests did not follow...as we can see,British people are more danish than anglo-saxon(the difference is still minimal though).
Remember that the Germanic tribes did not invade Rome because they were greedy but because they were pushed by the Huns invading from the east and kept aside by the roman 'limes'(wall).
It is then normal to see them 'burst' on all territories!

[blitzkrieg80]

The germanic words aren't based on 'nothing at all', you based it on the swabian and Frisian dialects wich are both part of the western and northern branches of Germanic languages.
This is wrong is so many ways. You simply don't know what you're talking about... or do you care to name the title of the pieces you're talking about... what manuscript? where is 'Frisian' coming from in reference to EB, anyways? Tellos and Tank are the closest thing to Frisian we've been using as resources ~:) [no offense guys, i mean Friesland as a whole not any particular modern geography]

Pre-Germanic Indo-European [timeline at EB start] has nothing to do with Old Frisian [400-1200CE] or Old High German [400-830CE] dialects other than being related through Germanic (like English), both being part of the Northwest [200-400CE], then West Germanic dialect family... quite a bit different than 270BCE!

Elmetiacos, you also do not know what you're talking about. My reconstructions are in no way 'easy' or based on derivations alone or artificial constructions as implied, as a IE translation of a fable would be, but are in-fact based on true terminology in most all instances, with actual usage historically and contextually consistent across all major dialects of Germanic and cross-IE cognates.

[Megas Methuselah]

Elmetiacos, you also do not know what you're talking about. My reconstructions are in no way 'easy' or based on derivations alone or artificial constructions as implied, as a IE translation of a fable would be, but are in-fact based on true terminology in most all instances, with actual usage historically and contextually consistent across all major dialects of Germanic and cross-IE cognates.

Which is one reason as to why EB is so great. It's spectacular effort on linguistic details never ceases to amaze me.

[Viking_Wårlord]

This is wrong is so many ways. You simply don't know what you're talking about... or do you care to name the title of the pieces you're talking about... what manuscript? where is 'Frisian' coming from in reference to EB, anyways? Tellos and Tank are the closest thing to Frisian we've been using as resources ~:) [no offense guys, i mean Friesland as a whole not any particular modern geography]

Pre-Germanic Indo-European [timeline at EB start] has nothing to do with Old Frisian [400-1200CE] or Old High German [400-830CE] dialects other than being related through Germanic (like English), both being part of the Northwest [200-400CE], then West Germanic dialect family... quite a bit different than 270BCE!

Elmetiacos, you also do not know what you're talking about. My reconstructions are in no way 'easy' or based on derivations alone or artificial constructions as implied, as a IE translation of a fable would be, but are in-fact based on true terminology in most all instances, with actual usage historically and contextually consistent across all major dialects of Germanic and cross-IE cognates.

False once more,
I'm talking about Pre Roman Frisian,that can gave birth to Swabian,Jutish,Saxon and of course old frisian dialects.
Pre Roman Frisian has been studied as one of the oldest indo-european languages with lithuanian...
I know co's I've been working on it lately!

Old frisian evoluated as New migrations of eastern Germanic tribes entered the Netherlandic area...
These eastern tribes entered in contact with early to wich they gave words such as Флагa(Flaga=flag)
or братство(Brastvo=brotherhood)...

[blitzkrieg80]

Which is one reason as to why EB is so great. It's spectacular effort on linguistic details never ceases to amaze me.
we appreciate the comment. of course there are so many gifted members in non-Germanic specialties that I am likewise amazed all the time ~:)
__________________

Viking_Warlord, care to offer any evidence other than the fantastic claims made just now with no reference, which isn't even listed anywhere in the field of study, nonetheless on the unsolicited OT links you posted from Wikipedia? you still haven't supplied a single scrap of evidence of what you're talking about other than some speculation on Dutch having retention of ancient Germanic elements... which end up being IE elements... I agree that Dutch is a very interesting language and so are its parent familial dialects, for the same reasons.

Just to be clear, you're suggesting 'Frisian' existed as the master-language of Lowland Germany / Netherlands (neglecting the standardized designation of 'West Germanic') but even so, earlier than Late Antiquity and during Classical times?

Are you referring to 'Old Franconian' or postulated term 'Ingaevonic' aka Anglo-Frisian? Again, what is your point and what is your evidence?


False once more,
what do you mean by 'false once more' - care to explain this? you imply an occasion beyond the recent post.

FYI - I am hardly 'false' when I know where I got my material. do you honestly think you know what sources I used better than I? If you want to prove this wrong, give us some literary evidence that I unknowingly used information from an Old Franconian or Old Frisian manuscript... that would be helpful in making such a point.

[blitzkrieg80]

I know co's I've been working on it lately!
disagreement aside - this sounds very interesting. it would be awesome to hear what work you've been doing in such a lesser known but important field, so please share sometime... as a separate item, since i don't expect a good mood to come from the other discussion.

[Ayce]

Just stopping by to say hi after a an absence (since August).
For the Getai, using either Latin or Greek is recommended, however, and I know this isn't likely be accepted because it isn't official, after looking through Dan Romalo's analysis of the largely neglected Sinaia lead tablets (found here (http://www.2shared.com/file/4418032/79c16a92/Cronica_geta.html)), I am convinced that they are not forgeries as initially supposed (they show a natural evolving language, and the method of production fits the time period), actually I think they were classified as forgeries because it seemed too good to be true. I have managed to reconstruct more than half of the building names, using the vocabulary and basic grammar (this (http://www.2shared.com/file/4418061/9dbfcf6d/Build_Tree_Getai_v05-001.html), could be „Skyteo do Ǧino”, instead of „Skyteo do Oto” there), but haven't been able to do anything about troops, because the terms used when referring to armies is too general (no soldier's descriptions), my recommendations for „getification” being Mezenai -> Mezeni (sg. Mezeno/Mezena, pl. Mezeni)*, Nobali(noble)/Dogyi(hat-wearers) for Tarabostes, and Boičeri for Ktistai, again using basic grammar.
*I'd also put Komatai -> Komati, but in the texts, the full term only appears in another context (it does appear as a single word though). It would come from Ko + Mato meaning „with mastery”, aka free people that have a job qualification (be it blacksmith, warrior, carpenter, or whatever).

[Elmetiacos]

Elmetiacos, you also do not know what you're talking about. My reconstructions are in no way 'easy' or based on derivations alone or artificial constructions as implied, as a IE translation of a fable would be, but are in-fact based on true terminology in most all instances, with actual usage historically and contextually consistent across all major dialects of Germanic and cross-IE cognates.
Huh? What? I never said it was easy, so lose the quotation marks - all I said was that reconstruction of a Germanic language for the Suebi is easier than one for the Lusitani or for Daco-Thracian, because those are languages with no living descendants!

[Viking_Wårlord]

we appreciate the comment. of course there are so many gifted members in non-Germanic specialties that I am likewise amazed all the time ~:)
__________________

Viking_Warlord, care to offer any evidence other than the fantastic claims made just now with no reference, which isn't even listed anywhere in the field of study, nonetheless on the unsolicited OT links you posted from Wikipedia? you still haven't supplied a single scrap of evidence of what you're talking about other than some speculation on Dutch having retention of ancient Germanic elements... which end up being IE elements... I agree that Dutch is a very interesting language and so are its parent familial dialects, for the same reasons.

Just to be clear, you're suggesting 'Frisian' existed as the master-language of Lowland Germany / Netherlands (neglecting the standardized designation of 'West Germanic') but even so, earlier than Late Antiquity and during Classical times?

Are you referring to 'Old Franconian' or postulated term 'Ingaevonic' aka Anglo-Frisian? Again, what is your point and what is your evidence?


what do you mean by 'false once more' - care to explain this? you imply an occasion beyond the recent post.

FYI - I am hardly 'false' when I know where I got my material. do you honestly think you know what sources I used better than I? If you want to prove this wrong, give us some literary evidence that I unknowingly used information from an Old Franconian or Old Frisian manuscript... that would be helpful in making such a point.


We both know that Frankish and angl-frisian are west Germanic right?
Now,of all the languages that descend from the western Germanic dialects,Frisian is the one that has the less evolved(older than Icelandic) hence you could speak Old english to a Frisian and he would understand(it has been prooven by 'Mongrel Nation' a BBC T.V program).
Hence we concluded that this is the most reliable of all languages to study proto-Germanic,most of the names that figure in E.B are actually of Old frisian origin(wich is barely the same)....
Geddit?
By the way,I like arguing with you and as I see you're interested in my work(ironic) here's a few fonts you could use...
http://www.rune-fonts.co.uk/fontlist.php

I hope you'll make good use of them?
And if you don't know how to install them...Just ask me!

[Viking_Wårlord]

disagreement aside - this sounds very interesting. it would be awesome to hear what work you've been doing in such a lesser known but important field, so please share sometime... as a separate item, since i don't expect a good mood to come from the other discussion.

Well, I've been making a B.I.G project last year that was to search for similarities in all indo-european languages and so it bought me to learn new languages(as russian and Hindi)...Through my studies I've found Lithuanian to be the closest to Hindi hence more 'ancient' than any other indo-european language...
As my speciality is Germanic languages(I think you've guessed that I'm Danish),I wanted to compare ALL actual and ancient dialects...I've found surprising things really,for example,Gothic(wich is a dead language) had a lot of remnants of Biblic hebrew(wich can be explained by the Goths having converted to Arianism)!
Pre-Roman Frisian was the most oldest of all,so old that we're still speculating on the meaning of some words coming from it!
How did I find out?
By comparing Pre-roman Frisian(or Proto-Germanic if you like) to Lithuanian and to Hindi(wich are the most ancient indo-european languages).
:idea2:

[blitzkrieg80]

i see what the confusion lies in... you're calling / equating West Germanic or even Anglo-Frisian the same as Proto-Germanic, despite accepted usage? they are subfamilies, so that doesn't make a lot of sense. what does make a lot of sense is otherwise Proto-Germanic seems to include two dialects (Northwest and East) which are becoming divergent from the beginning on and is more or less not very useful as a designation, so I find it very interesting that you are instead calling Proto-Germanic to be Northwest Germanic with the East as an anomoly, since that IS a useful designation... that is very unique, I think, and does show some keen understanding of the development of Germanic language, because as soon as Germanic Word Stress Change begins in the East Germanic dialects, so does Proto-Germanic then become less and less the small time-frame identity it once had, which really points to Proto-Germanic not really being worth identifying as a 'language.' FTY, for those who don't know: the Germanic Word Stress Change (versus the previous Indo-European word stress system) is so important because it causes so many different changes between Northwest and East Germanic in conjunction with Verner's Law, First Umlaut, and Loss of a Mora in Unstressed Word-Final Syllables.

that is actually why I don't use the term Proto-Germanic... Pre-Germanic Indo-European, because Lithuanian and others come from the same IE source which is also why I use IE combined with earliest evidence of Germanic...

but your other statement is a little boggling:

most of the names that figure in E.B are actually of Old frisian origin
the language of EB's Swēbōzez, naming and terminology, ect. and thus my reconstructions (you understand that I am the author of all the most recent Germanic naming except the map?) use a lot of Gothic too, so I don't know why you think it's exclusively based in Northwest Germanic, other than recognizing stuff you've worked with? Nonetheless, your attitude of educating me in said concepts, which I've obviously mastered to the degree that I have, is a little amusing. I certainly don't mind talking about it, it is very interesting and enjoyable to discuss language, especially for me Germanic and Indo-European, but you're not talking to a 'fan' if you didn't know.

Your arguments for Anglo-Frisian are actually the very argument I would have with any German nationalist who claims that an English-speaking American could never know about Germanic language :grin: I would actually argue that Anglo-Frisian and the Low Germans who stayed near their homeland are more Germanic than migrant mountainmen (oops, I didn't say that). all Germanic speakers are the same, as in awesome, and interesting ~:)

thanks for the link to the fonts, i have a good one Yggdrasil, but i can always use more like that ~:thumb: BTW, i have tatoos of runes even, hehe, mainland German style (stylistically preferred at the time). I am quite proud of that rather than Celtic tribal, random Asian characters or barcode-like tatoos off the wall or book that makes me just slightly different than everybody else's carbon copy. one says 'Leben ist Lieben' (a philosophy of duality and seeing the light within darkness) and one has my initials.

is your project going to be published or filmed, or is it mostly hobby? or other?

[Viking_Wårlord]

i see what the confusion lies in... you're calling / equating West Germanic or even Anglo-Frisian the same as Proto-Germanic, despite accepted usage? they are subfamilies, so that doesn't make a lot of sense. what does make a lot of sense is otherwise Proto-Germanic seems to include two dialects (Northwest and East) which are becoming divergent from the beginning on and is more or less not very useful as a designation, so I find it very interesting that you are instead calling Proto-Germanic to be Northwest Germanic with the East as an anomoly, since that IS a useful designation... that is very unique, I think, and does show some keen understanding of the development of Germanic language, because as soon as Germanic Word Stress Change begins in the East Germanic dialects, so does Proto-Germanic then become less and less the small time-frame identity it once had, which really points to Proto-Germanic not really being worth identifying as a 'language.' FTY, for those who don't know: the Germanic Word Stress Change (versus the previous Indo-European word stress system) is so important because it causes so many different changes between Northwest and East Germanic in conjunction with Verner's Law, First Umlaut, and Loss of a Mora in Unstressed Word-Final Syllables.

that is actually why I don't use the term Proto-Germanic... Pre-Germanic Indo-European, because Lithuanian and others come from the same IE source which is also why I use IE combined with earliest evidence of Germanic...

but your other statement is a little boggling:

the language of EB's Swēbōzez, naming and terminology, ect. and thus my reconstructions (you understand that I am the author of all the most recent Germanic naming except the map?) use a lot of Gothic too, so I don't know why you think it's exclusively based in Northwest Germanic, other than recognizing stuff you've worked with? Nonetheless, your attitude of educating me in said concepts, which I've obviously mastered to the degree that I have, is a little amusing. I certainly don't mind talking about it, it is very interesting and enjoyable to discuss language, especially for me Germanic and Indo-European, but you're not talking to a 'fan' if you didn't know.

Your arguments for Anglo-Frisian are actually the very argument I would have with any German nationalist who claims that an English-speaking American could never know about Germanic language :grin: I would actually argue that Anglo-Frisian and the Low Germans who stayed near their homeland are more Germanic than migrant mountainmen (oops, I didn't say that). all Germanic speakers are the same, as in awesome, and interesting ~:)

thanks for the link to the fonts, i have a good one Yggdrasil, but i can always use more like that ~:thumb: BTW, i have tatoos of runes even, hehe, mainland German style (stylistically preferred at the time). I am quite proud of that rather than Celtic tribal, random Asian characters or barcode-like tatoos off the wall or book that makes me just slightly different than everybody else's carbon copy. one says 'Leben ist Lieben' (a philosophy of duality and seeing the light within darkness) and one has my initials.

is your project going to be published or filmed, or is it mostly hobby? or other?
Well,for what's of my project,I made it as a hobby,but you just gave me an idea...maybe I'll make a video about it on youtube,maybe I'll do a book about it or even a dictionnary!Who knows?

But anyway,I appreciate talking with you,you finally understand that pre-Roman frisian stands for Proto-Germanic.

I didn't know that you did the names in EB,though you did a good job...though there's a slight problem,when you annex a settlement,one of the option includes 'Þrældömi' actually meaning 'slavery' though Germanic tribes didn't use slavery until the Barbarian invasion(and E.B is way before that era).
So I'm only asking...why did you put this more than particular word?
I could also talk about it's etymology...it comes from 'Þråll' meaning slave(wich was the most terrible insult for any Germanic tribesman!) and dömi...:wall:that has no REAL english translation.

Second thing that attracts my attention...

"Your arguments for Anglo-Frisian are actually the very argument I would have with any German nationalist who claims that an English-speaking American could never know about Germanic language"

I didn't really get that but anyway...are you working on EB2?
If yes...I would like to know when it's planned to be released,do you even have a release date???

Wæss Hæl:smash:

[blitzkrieg80]

you should write a book or do a documentary or something, i would read/watch it :yes: i look forward to future, interesting Germanic discussions of whatever topics and threads

yes, I am heading the Swēbōzez team for EB2, although not as active as one would hope, since I have other concerns currently. The Pre-Germanic Voice Mod still needs time for recording to be finished... hopefully will have an install for everybody for 1.2 before EB2. Come on now, we're not spilling any beans on a release date... certainly not done yet.

that is peculiar... I never put 'thrall' anywhere... ~:confused: in fact, i didn't know you could change the options for CONQUER / ENSLAVE ,ect.... do you use a different language version for RTW than English? is it possible that this aspects was missed by me concerning things that are changeable... I am guessing it is like the map and also the names of characters which had to be left to the original before me... what I am wondering now is what .txt that information is contained in, so i can check to see if that is something i never knew about.

btw, i would use 'theow' over 'thrall' and even then, 'sevant' doesn't nec. imply slavery- i agree, so good comment

my comment on the 'nationalism' is just because I assumed Germans would hate me for being American ~:) and I have spoken with Germans who thought I could never do work on Proto-Germanic and such simply because I'm an American... and believe me, I can understand why one would have doubt in Amercians researching the Old World too (I know some of the best books are only in German, French, ect. and the collections are simply not as easily available as in Europe- i have been lucky though and have imported some good books)... to my delightful surprise, most Germans appreciate that I don't portray the Germanic peoples as backward cavemen, so all you nice and thoughtful fans (whoever you are out there) are great to have as a fan-base, esp. in a Romano-Centric world - thanks all! it's also possible nobody knows enough to comment too, but just the same, I am surprised at how cool Europeans have been concerning this subject, which one would think might have some spark-flying potential

[ziegenpeter]

Oh, this thread is getting more and more interesting...


I didn't know that you did the names in EB,though you did a good job...though there's a slight problem,when you annex a settlement,one of the option includes 'Þrældömi' actually meaning 'slavery' though Germanic tribes didn't use slavery until the Barbarian invasion(and E.B is way before that era).
So I'm only asking...why did you put this more than particular word?
I could also talk about it's etymology...it comes from 'Þråll' meaning slave(wich was the most terrible insult for any Germanic tribesman!) and dömi...:wall:that has no REAL english translation.


I'd say its a suffix discribing the concept witch links all the individaul parts of this concept and what they have in common. Like "-hood" in "brotherhood" or "-ry" in "slavery".

I wonder if it has a common etymology with "dom", which I know from swedish, meaning "arbitration".

[Viking_Wårlord]

Oh, this thread is getting more and more interesting...


I'd say its a suffix discribing the concept witch links all the individaul parts of this concept and what they have in common. Like "-hood" in "brotherhood" or "-ry" in "slavery".

I wonder if it has a common etymology with "dom", which I know from swedish, meaning "arbitration".

Yeah,but -ry doesn't give a valuable translation in english,that's what I think,and by the way,it is related with the swedish dom...

[ziegenpeter]

Oh, cool! Could you be so kind and give me a brief overview of its etymological developpement?
Unfortunatly, I don't posess a swedish etymological dictionairy...

[Cartaphilus]

Gothic(wich is a dead language) had a lot of remnants of Biblic hebrew(wich can be explained by the Goths having converted to Arianism)!

And because the gothic is mainly known through "The Bible of Ulfilas".

[Elmetiacos]

This Swedish word is presumably cognate with the English "doom" - which used to mean "judgement" until the Normans exported the French word. I believe on the Isle of Man a judge is still called a Doomster, or something like that.

[MeinPanzer]

Thralldom is still a word in English meaning servitude or slavery. The suffix -dom comes from OE dōm and "refers to domain (kingdom), collection of persons (officialdom), rank or station (earldom), or general condition (freedom)."

[SpawnOfEbil]

Completely different topic:

How did the team reconstruct the steppe languages (ie the Sauromatae and the Saka Rauka). Presumably, being an Indo-Aryan language, you could look at related languages (indeed, there are a few recognizable words such as malik referring to king), but still, that's a lord of work to be done.

Also are there any pronounciation guides? Some of them are a right nightmare (especially the word for rider, whatever it is).

[Ibrahim]

Completely different topic:

How did the team reconstruct the steppe languages (ie the Sauromatae and the Saka Rauka). Presumably, being an Indo-Aryan language, you could look at related languages (indeed, there are a few recognizable words such as malik referring to king), but still, that's a lord of work to be done.

Also are there any pronounciation guides? Some of them are a right nightmare (especially the word for rider, whatever it is).

you sure malik is even indoeuropean?:inquisitive:

unless two language groups (indo-Iranian and semetic), evolved the same word seperately.

[SpawnOfEbil]

Sorry, I saw it, realized it was used in India to refer to some kind of royalty and then assumed it was an Indo-European root.

[Ibrahim]

Sorry, I saw it, realized it was used in India to refer to some kind of royalty and then assumed it was an Indo-European root.

its OK, just figured Its unusual that 2 groups can evolve the exact same word seperately.:2thumbsup:

[Kuningaz]

Wow was really interesting to read about this, unfortunately I almost don't know anything about proto germanic languages. I got a question though: are the Sweboz somehow related to modern day Schwaben? (just cause it sounds so similar). Ah and as an Austrian I gotta tell you I'm really thankfull for your great work, no problem with you being American at all...:yes:

[Gleemonex]

its OK, just figured Its unusual that 2 groups can evolve the exact same word seperately.:2thumbsup:

Not necessarily. In languages of thousands of words [1], it's easy for similar words to crop up by pure coincidence. Of the many examples that surely exist, the one that comes to mind right now is the Taiwanese-Fujianese "热" /ʃjɔ/ (hot) and the French "chaud" /ʃɔ/ (hot).

-Glee

[1] For example, the average native English speaker has a 10 000 to 20 000 word vocabulary

[Ibrahim]

Not necessarily. In languages of thousands of words [1], it's easy for similar words to crop up by pure coincidence. Of the many examples that surely exist, the one that comes to mind right now is the Taiwanese-Fujianese "热" /ʃjɔ/ (hot) and the French "chaud" /ʃɔ/ (hot).

-Glee

[1] For example, the average native English speaker has a 10 000 to 20 000 word vocabulary

I never said it was impossible-just somewhat unusual, that's all.:beam: (I even have examples of me own: aye in english, compared to aye in sudani arabic. both= yes. aye in saudani is cognate to aywa, and a in varios eastern arabic dialects (from egypt to the east; aye is apparelty a verient of yes in English-details uncertain)

but Is Malik independantly evolved, or is it indeed a loan word from Arabic? because If what Spawn found is right, I've got one heck of a headache:clown:

[ziegenpeter]

I got a question though: are the Sweboz somehow related to modern day Schwaben?
Yes, indeed in modern german the Sweboz are called "sueben" and they've given the name for the modern Schwaben. This phenomenon is the same for other germanic tribes: The francs, Bajuwaren (Bayern), Alamani, Saxons, Frisians, Chatti (Hessen) etc.
However, this doesnt always imply a straight descendence from these tribes.

EDIT: In case someone wants to be given sources, I'll look them up later.

[Elmetiacos]

I never said it was impossible-just somewhat unusual, that's all.:beam: (I even have examples of me own: aye in english, compared to aye in sudani arabic. both= yes. aye in saudani is cognate to aywa, and a in varios eastern arabic dialects (from egypt to the east; aye is apparelty a verient of yes in English-details uncertain)

but Is Malik independantly evolved, or is it indeed a loan word from Arabic? because If what Spawn found is right, I've got one heck of a headache:clown:
Outside Arabic speaking regions, Malik only seems to be used by Muslims, so it looks very likely to have been loaned from Arabic. No Indo-European root makes any sense unless it's possible to get from honey or milk to a ruler.

[Kuningaz]

Hm interesting, any books you would recommend me to read about germanic etymology?

[Cartaphilus]

Outside Arabic speaking regions, Malik only seems to be used by Muslims, so it looks very likely to have been loaned from Arabic. No Indo-European root makes any sense unless it's possible to get from honey or milk to a ruler.

Malik came from the semitic root mlk and the meaning is obviously king or lord.
In fact the God Melqart would be the King of the City.

[Viking_Wårlord]

Oh, cool! Could you be so kind and give me a brief overview of its etymological developpement?
Unfortunatly, I don't posess a swedish etymological dictionairy...

IT COMOES FROM Dómi in old norse...simple as that!

[Viking_Wårlord]

Wow was really interesting to read about this, unfortunately I almost don't know anything about proto germanic languages. I got a question though: are the Sweboz somehow related to modern day Schwaben? (just cause it sounds so similar). Ah and as an Austrian I gotta tell you I'm really thankfull for your great work, no problem with you being American at all...:yes:

Yes,the Swêboz came from the actual Swabian region but it's descendants are the Portuguese...:smash:

[ziegenpeter]

IT COMOES FROM Dómi in old norse

Meaning...?

@Kuningaz: Wait till I got home and I give you some titles... oh wait whats your mother tongue?

[Viking_Wårlord]

Meaning...?

@Kuningaz: Wait till I got home and I give you some titles... oh wait whats your mother tongue?

It can mean 'prevailance'(for example,heathendom=holyness' prevailance) but can also mean 'time'...
My mother tongue is Danish...

[Viking_Wårlord]

Malik came from the semitic root mlk and the meaning is obviously king or lord.
In fact the God Melqart would be the King of the City.

False,it comes from Baal the old semitic Baal(מלך) that also gave the Carthaginian god Baal-saphôôn.:book:

[Viking_Wårlord]

Yes, indeed in modern german the Sweboz are called "sueben" and they've given the name for the modern Schwaben. This phenomenon is the same for other germanic tribes: The francs, Bajuwaren (Bayern), Alamani, Saxons, Frisians, Chatti (Hessen) etc.
However, this doesnt always imply a straight descendence from these tribes.

EDIT: In case someone wants to be given sources, I'll look them up later.

Not exactly,the Swabian region got croosed by many tribes during the barbarian invasions,
that's why Swabians are Germanic but not 'genetically' Swêboz...

The protuguese are the actual descendants of the Swêboz:inquisitive:

[ziegenpeter]

Not exactly,the Swabian region got croosed by many tribes during the barbarian invasions,
that's why Swabians are Germanic but not 'genetically' Swêboz...


Why do you introduce your post by "not exactly", if you don't contradict me?
I was just saying that the name(!) has its origin from sweboz but, to quote myself,
this doesnt always imply a straight descendence from these tribes.

Sorry but my dictionary didn't give me a translation for prevailance, only for prevail, so I assume its the corresponding noun.
SO we have "prevailance" as a meaning, which is IMHO a notion that can be found in the suffix "-dom"
we have "jugement" and "time"... hmm and you say the meanings in old norse are "prevailance" or "time", right? I wonder where the jugement is coming from...

Please use the "Edit" button.

[Kuningaz]

Mother tongue is (Austrian:laugh4:) German

[blitzkrieg80]

I agree with Ziegenpeter- Viking_Warlord, I had a similar reaction in that you come across as unnecessarily antagonistic, but I at least prompted such a response toward me by saying you were not correct ~;p and while it's your right to have whatever attitude you want, don't expect to people to take that attitude or appreciate it. The Indo-European root *sue- rather ensures that there is no exclusiveness to those who call themselves 'Swabbian', meaning "one's own" as you know, although you are correct in that the later Migration Period Germanic tribes assume the identity of Suebi even though they were not directly related to Arminius' confederation or that named by Tacitus.

[edit] I just realized that maybe there is a language issue going on- in English, 'related' is not necessarily by blood, so Ziegenpeter was referring to the 'name' which is indeed related... yet it is also true there is no evidence genetically linking the original Suebi with the later Suebi (and their territory is vastly different between classical references), although there is no way to verify ethnicity or genetics, so it's a rather moot point in that specific sense.

The Portuguese are not 'the Suebi'. Tribes under the identity of the Suebi did invade, but so did Celtiberians and Romans, while retaining non-Indo-European elements, yet I would not say they are 'this' or 'that', but you probably are just referring to the best known Suebi of Late Antiquity, so that is correct in that very limited sense.


* For those curious on -dōm / 'doom' - it is related to 'deem' and 'do':

A Handbook of Germanic Etymology by Vladimir Orel :

https://img368.imageshack.us/img368/7120/domlf0.th.jpg (https://img368.imageshack.us/my.php?image=domlf0.jpg)

Altenglisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch von F. Holthausen :

https://img372.imageshack.us/img372/4698/dom2sq7.th.jpg (https://img372.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dom2sq7.jpg)

Language and history in the early Germanic world by D.H. Green
(warning- large size) :
https://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6363/dom3axe8.th.jpg (https://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dom3axe8.jpg) https://img116.imageshack.us/img116/4595/dom3bvh5.th.jpg (https://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dom3bvh5.jpg) https://img116.imageshack.us/img116/8440/dom3cdv9.th.jpg (https://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dom3cdv9.jpg)
Someone had asked about a good book to read on this kind of thing, so there is an answer for ya (DH Green) ~;)


I believe on the Isle of Man a judge is still called a Doomster, or something like that.
nice fact, Elmetiacos - i didn't know that - very interesting

[MeinPanzer]

Completely different topic:

How did the team reconstruct the steppe languages (ie the Sauromatae and the Saka Rauka). Presumably, being an Indo-Aryan language, you could look at related languages (indeed, there are a few recognizable words such as malik referring to king), but still, that's a lord of work to be done.

Also are there any pronounciation guides? Some of them are a right nightmare (especially the word for rider, whatever it is).

Just to answer this: almost all reconstructions of ancient steppe languages are AFAIK based on Ossetian with a input from epigraphy and Indo-European cognates.

[ziegenpeter]

Mother tongue is (Austrian:laugh4:) German
Well great, because I only know german books about this.

@Blitzkrieg: Thanks for your clarification and the Links/pics.

[Cartaphilus]

False,it comes from Baal the old semitic Baal(מלך) that also gave the Carthaginian god Baal-saphôôn.:book:

Nop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melqart

I know that wiki is not a great source but is the only one I have now at my disposition.
But I am sure about that.

[Ibrahim]

Nop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melqart

I know that wiki is not a great source but is the only one I have now at my disposition.
But I am sure about that.

I just came back from a reading, and I confirm yor source, Cartaphilus.:yes:

[Viking_Wårlord]

I agree with Ziegenpeter- Viking_Warlord, I had a similar reaction in that you come across as unnecessarily antagonistic, but I at least prompted such a response toward me by saying you were not correct ~;p and while it's your right to have whatever attitude you want, don't expect to people to take that attitude or appreciate it. The Indo-European root *sue- rather ensures that there is no exclusiveness to those who call themselves 'Swabbian', meaning "one's own" as you know, although you are correct in that the later Migration Period Germanic tribes assume the identity of Suebi even though they were not directly related to Arminius' confederation or that named by Tacitus.

[edit] I just realized that maybe there is a language issue going on- in English, 'related' is not necessarily by blood, so Ziegenpeter was referring to the 'name' which is indeed related... yet it is also true there is no evidence genetically linking the original Suebi with the later Suebi (and their territory is vastly different between classical references), although there is no way to verify ethnicity or genetics, so it's a rather moot point in that specific sense.

The Portuguese are not 'the Suebi'. Tribes under the identity of the Suebi did invade, but so did Celtiberians and Romans, while retaining non-Indo-European elements, yet I would not say they are 'this' or 'that', but you probably are just referring to the best known Suebi of Late Antiquity, so that is correct in that very limited sense.


* For those curious on -dōm / 'doom' - it is related to 'deem' and 'do':

A Handbook of Germanic Etymology by Vladimir Orel :

https://img368.imageshack.us/img368/7120/domlf0.th.jpg (https://img368.imageshack.us/my.php?image=domlf0.jpg)

Altenglisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch von F. Holthausen :

https://img372.imageshack.us/img372/4698/dom2sq7.th.jpg (https://img372.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dom2sq7.jpg)

Language and history in the early Germanic world by D.H. Green
(warning- large size) :
https://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6363/dom3axe8.th.jpg (https://img265.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dom3axe8.jpg) https://img116.imageshack.us/img116/4595/dom3bvh5.th.jpg (https://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dom3bvh5.jpg) https://img116.imageshack.us/img116/8440/dom3cdv9.th.jpg (https://img116.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dom3cdv9.jpg)
Someone had asked about a good book to read on this kind of thing, so there is an answer for ya (DH Green) ~;)


nice fact, Elmetiacos - i didn't know that - very interesting

Though the DNA tests performed on the portuguese showed the that their Y chromosome was of Germanic origin,assuming that it was different if we compared it to Spanish Y chromosome,it was concluded that the Portuguese were the actual descendants of the Swêboz and for the Spanish,madrilenes and Iberians were majoritarily wisigothic(though they represented some Basque and Celitc elements).

Thanks for bringing another translation of domi but as I said, I don't think it has an exact translation as different dialects used it to describe different things...its meaning also changed throughout time,hence Vikings used it to describe 'do'...though it was also used by Swedish Varanguians to describe a home(!)...:whip:

[Viking_Wårlord]

Nop.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melqart

I know that wiki is not a great source but is the only one I have now at my disposition.
But I am sure about that.

I though you were talking about the word meaning 'master',not 'king'!
Sorry,my mistake,you're right.:oops:

[Cartaphilus]

I though you were talking about the word meaning 'master',not 'king'!
Sorry,my mistake,you're right.:oops:

No problem, man, you were right with Baal of course, he's the "Lord", the "Master"...

[ziegenpeter]

Here we go Kuningaz: As a good introduction I'd advice you to read
Wilhelm Schmidt: Geschichte der deutschen Sprache
Astrid Stedje: Deutsche Sprache gestern und heute

[Kuningaz]

Ok thanks, once I'm back in Austria I'll buy them

[Elmetiacos]

The thread is not dead, only stunned. Since it all started with some of us pointing out how hard it would be to reconstruct Dacian and/or Thracian, here are some interesting snippets.
1. The (Latinised) Getic personal name Zalmodegicus: look at the second element in the name. Surely it must be a cognate of Celtic *dexs- which appears in Lugudeccas on an Ogham stone "of the servant of Lugh" - that means Zalmodegicus is "servant of Zalmoxis".
2. Did Daco-Thracian turn Indo-European M into B? Bassaris is a Greek word for the fox skin worn by Dionysos which doesn't seem to have an etymology in Greek. Bassareus is also supposed to have been the Thracian version of the god. Bendis was the Thracian moon goddess. Both these make sense as PIE roots if we turn the Bs into Ms: *moiso- meaning the hide of an animal and *meh1ns- meaning the moon...

EDIT: bah - Duridanov's Thracian vocabulary (http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/thrac_5.html) is full of words that kept the M as M...

[Subotan]

bredas ‘pasture-ground’
dentu- ‘clan, tribe’
desa(s), disa(s) ‘deity, god’
ermas ‘fierce, mad’
esvas (ezvas) ‘horse’
mezēna ‘a horseman
skaplis "axe"
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’
taru- ‘spear’

These look particularly useful to us. But I laughed out loud when I saw

stra (from an earlier *strava) ‘ torrent’
Hehe, file-sharing Dacians...

[Elmetiacos]

I'm now getting a bit sceptical about that list and Duridanov's determination to link Thracian to Baltic and Slavonic... which just happened to have been done by a Bulgarian in the middle of the Cold War. We already know how politics could muddy the waters in Romania and Albania at this time.

[Ayce]

Elmetiacos: That would be the case if the name for the Getic god is Zalmoxis, not Zamolxis. And this is still an issue.
And I wouldn't say Daco-Thracian, for all we know, there could have been important differences between the two.
On post 44 I tried to start a small discussion based on the usually ignored Sinaia tablets, but everyone here was too busy with germanic languages.
Looking over that link, and quickly crosschecking what words appear in both places, I do see correlations, but also differences, mostly in form. Ex:
-god - T: Desa/Disa/Zi, D: Dio/Zei(only once)/Za prefix for Za-Boly
-T: ut (river), D: ut (river bed)
-T: stra (current, torrent), D: Streo (hydronym, possibly the current Strei, originating in „torrent”)
-T: esvas (horse), D: eskoe (horses/studs), ekyo (the horses)
-Differences: Sar is used for water in all the Sinaia plates, never anything relating to aqva, apa.
Interestingly in the texts, the form for the supreme god of the Dacians is Zamolxo.
Of course the language on the tablets is supposed to be be the central dialect of the 1st century AD state, so it would have evolved somewhat from the 270 BC dialects. I did however change some of the text files in RB 1.2 to use what I have managed to translate using Romalo's book.

[Elmetiacos]

The consensus is that the Sinaia plates are forgeries, and I have to agree with that. Apart from the language being strange, and there being what seems to be a fully developed logographic writing system appearing out of nowhere (with what look like modern mathematical signs accompanying them?) The heads look as if copied straight from the Turda coins and the little robed people stuck in the middle of the writing look more like something taken from the Aztec or Maya Codices than anything from the time and place they are supposed to belong to.

[Viking_Wårlord]

I'm now getting a bit sceptical about that list and Duridanov's determination to link Thracian to Baltic and Slavonic... which just happened to have been done by a Bulgarian in the middle of the Cold War. We already know how politics could muddy the waters in Romania and Albania at this time.

My studies have shown that Slavonic is linked to Baltic and Thracian dialects only by it's Indo-european consistence.
Linking them closer is childish.:furious3:

[Ayce]

The consensus is that the Sinaia plates are forgeries, and I have to agree with that. Apart from the language being strange, and there being what seems to be a fully developed logographic writing system appearing out of nowhere (with what look like modern mathematical signs accompanying them?) The heads look as if copied straight from the Turda coins and the little robed people stuck in the middle of the writing look more like something taken from the Aztec or Maya Codices than anything from the time and place they are supposed to belong to.

I have to disagree with that, the consensus was reached before any real work on them even began. Too bad the book isn't fully translated so the most relevant passages are out of reach for anyone that doesn't speak Romanian. What I find striking is the fact, that the plate containing the plan of the capital city was found well before it's layout was explored by archaeologists, and it is a perfect match. The author also managed to pour his own fragment using techniques that the Dacians had access too, so method of production isn't an issue. I would like to see some work being done on them (with an open mind). I know that because they are not an official source of documentation, you aren't going to use it.

[Elmetiacos]

The best forgers put small pieces of real material in among the faked material. The Welsh forger, Iolo Morgannwg, who invented modern Druid orders, did this: he had some genuine mediaeval Welsh manuscripts which he "padded out" with lots of his own faked material. To this day, nobody can be 100% certain which parts of his forgery may be actually genuine.

[Cartaphilus]

About lusitanian language:

http://www.celtiberia.net/articulo.asp?id=250

I warn you that the link is in spanish.

[Viking_Wårlord]

Isn't Elohîms coming from the cannan word 'El' designing god,if it is,then it also gave the arabic 'Allah'.:idea2:

[Ibrahim]

Isn't Elohîms coming from the cannan word 'El' designing god,if it is,then it also gave the arabic 'Allah'.:idea2:

*smacks VW in the nape*

Canaanite didn't lend the word El to the Arabs; arabic already had a cognate, ilah (allah being a contraction of al-ilah lit. the god). but yes, they are similar to each other in that they are of the same source.

otherwise, this is interesting information concerning the european languages.

[Viking_Wårlord]

*smacks VW in the nape*

Canaanite didn't lend the word El to the Arabs; arabic already had a cognate, ilah (allah being a contraction of al-ilah lit. the god). but yes, they are similar to each other in that they are of the same source.

otherwise, this is interesting information concerning the european languages.

I know it's a semitic language but I don't see why we wouldn't be allowed to talk about it,as you talked about Melqart earlier.

[Ibrahim]

I know it's a semitic language but I don't see why we wouldn't be allowed to talk about it,as you talked about Melqart earlier.

that wasn't me man. I asked about something else rlated to Indoeuropean words resembling semetic ones, and a nice fellow answered with melqart as his guide:



Originally Posted by Cartaphilus
Malik came from the semitic root mlk and the meaning is obviously king or lord.
In fact the God Melqart would be the King of the City.

:yes:

[Viking_Wårlord]

that wasn't me man. I asked about something else rlated to Indoeuropean words resembling semetic ones, and a nice fellow answered with melqart as his guide:




:yes:

ok,then i have a question that my studies did not solve,I studied the Basque language for a long time and I wanted to if the word ezker was linked to Spanish izquierda,co's it's so similar and because I didn't get the time to check.

[Viking_Wårlord]

ok,then i have a question that my studies did not solve,I studied the Basque language for a long time and I wanted to if the word ezker was linked to Spanish izquierda,co's it's so similar and because I didn't get the time to check.

I found it!....on...wikipedia!(crap,i must be blind then!)they say
"The Romance languages of Gascon, Aragonese, and Spanish display marked Basque influence, as a result of substratum, language contact, and bilingualism. A notable example is that of the Pyrenean and Iberian Romance words for "left (side)" (izquierdo, esquerdo, esquerre, quer, esquer) derived from Basque ezker[15] to avoid the ominous connotations of Latin sinister."

How could I not've spotted this?:inquisitive:

[gamegeek2]

"Allah" was formed from the gemination of the "l"s in al-ilah, "the god." The semitic root would be ylh or lh.

In Semitic languages, there is a system of roots which can be used to form new words, this has been happening for a long time. Foreign words are easily incorporated with this system. Take the root k-t-b, which conveys the idea of writing. A very small sample of the many words in Arabic that are derived from this root.

kitab - book
kātib - writer (m)
kataba - to write
kutayyib - booklet
takātaba - to correspond
maktab - office
maktaba - library
miktāb - typewriter
maktūb - written

And a small sample of the Hebrew words derived from the same k-t-b root.

katab - reporter (m)
ktib - spelling
katub - written
ktab - handwriting

It is even seen in Maltese, the only Semtic language to use the Latin Alphabet as the primary alphabet

ktieb - book
kittieb - writer
miktub - written

A good EB example is the root q-d-$, meaning "holy/sacred." In Punic, "sh" becomes "s," so we have HaParasim HaQdosim (Sacred Band Cavalry). The same root is seen in Hebrew "Miqdash," as in HaBeit HaMiqdash, which literally translates as "The House [of] The Temple." Notice the pattern of adding "mi" or "ma" to the front of a root to get a building/object from an idea.

So we have the root s-g-d, "worship, bow." By adding "ma-" to the front we get Aramaic "Masgid," "place of worship," and Arabic "Masjid," meaning "mosque," most likely derived from an Aramaic dialect, likely Nabataean. And d-r-s, the root for "learn" is seen in Arabic "madrasa," "school."

[ThePianist]

For what's of military terms....here we go:

war>crīgā(gave german 'krieg' and danish 'krig')
fight>skermō(gave the word 'skirmish')
die>dhewə (gave Deyja(old norse))
kill>colḗjō (nothing to explain here)
destroy>dheukō (here neither...)


Fascinating. I add:

war>crīgā(gave german 'krieg' and danish 'krig')
(gave -possibly- 'cri' and 'crier', French "shout", noun and verb)
fight>skermō(gave the word 'skirmish')
die>dhewə (gave Deyja(old norse))
(and this word Deyja -possibly- gave 'déjà', French "already")
kill>colḗjō (nothing to explain here)
(gave -possibly- colère, French "anger")
destroy>dheukō (here neither...)
(gave -possibly- dragon, if you pronounce the "h" like in German)

[Ibrahim]

"Allah" was formed from the gemination of the "l"s in al-ilah, "the god." The semitic root would be ylh or lh.

In Semitic languages, there is a system of roots which can be used to form new words, this has been happening for a long time. Foreign words are easily incorporated with this system. Take the root k-t-b, which conveys the idea of writing. A very small sample of the many words in Arabic that are derived from this root.

kitab - book
kātib - writer (m)
kataba - to write
kutayyib - booklet
takātaba - to correspond
maktab - office
maktaba - library
miktāb - typewriter
maktūb - written

And a small sample of the Hebrew words derived from the same k-t-b root.

katab - reporter (m)
ktib - spelling
katub - written
ktab - handwriting

It is even seen in Maltese, the only Semtic language to use the Latin Alphabet as the primary alphabet

ktieb - book
kittieb - writer
miktub - written

A good EB example is the root q-d-$, meaning "holy/sacred." In Punic, "sh" becomes "s," so we have HaParasim HaQdosim (Sacred Band Cavalry). The same root is seen in Hebrew "Miqdash," as in HaBeit HaMiqdash, which literally translates as "The House [of] The Temple." Notice the pattern of adding "mi" or "ma" to the front of a root to get a building/object from an idea.

So we have the root s-g-d, "worship, bow." By adding "ma-" to the front we get Aramaic "Masgid," "place of worship," and Arabic "Masjid," meaning "mosque," most likely derived from an Aramaic dialect, likely Nabataean. And d-r-s, the root for "learn" is seen in Arabic "madrasa," "school."


just to add: Maltese is decended from a variety of Arabic releted to Siculo-Arabic (arabic in Sicily).

otherwise, nice work.:2thumbsup:

[gamegeek2]

It is descended from [Maghrebi] Arabic, this is seen by -in as one of many plurals (also seen in Arabic), as opposed to normal Semitic -im. However, genetic studies comparing the Maltese people with the Lebanese show overwhelming similarity (the Phoenicians were from around Lebanon)

[Owen Glyndwr]

Wow, absolutely fascinating, I've always really loved languages, and their origins. This makes me really look forward to College now (I plan to minor in linguistics), but yeah, keep going!

[gamegeek2]

Thanks.

[Elmetiacos]

Hopeless Case Languages

1. Getic (Thracian, Dacian, Daco-Thracian...)
What can we get from Duridanov - http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/thrac_1.html ?
We've got some words recorded in Greek or Latin, but a lot are names for plants, which obviously aren't much use. Midne means a village. There's a village called Poltymbria from which Duridanov derives *poltyn- meaning a wooden fortification. Skalme means a sword. The Thracian nobles are called the Zibythides. There's the tribal name Satrai which is possibly related to Sanskrit and Persian ksat(h)ra and means power or authority, a form of government? There's also the personal name Taruthin/Tarusinas/Tarutinos which apparently meaning "holding a spear" - pluralise that and it's a ready made unit name. But how? All the names are given Greek or Roman dress; there doesn't seem to be any grammar discernable. Thracian inscriptions are very thin on the ground indeed and there are none in Dacian. The longest is from Kjolmen, written in the Greek alphabet. It says:
ILASNLETEDNLEDNENIDAKATROSO
EBA.ROZESASNÊNETESAIGEKOA
NBLABAÊGN
To which I'm forced to say WTF?!
P.Dimitrov (http://www.nbu.bg/PUBLIC/IMAGES/File/departments/mediterranean%20and%20eastern%20research/Publikacii/P_Dimitrov_13_01_2009.pdf) suggests NBLABÊGN is copied from a Greek formula and means "do not damage/destroy (this inscription)" ASN(E) means "whoever", -e endings are probably genitives and IGEKOA could be a perfect tense before basically giving up after getting il asn' leted n'led ne ni dakatroso Evaroze sas nê n'etesa igekoa - and you can't blame him.
Back to Duridanov, who translates the name Dentusucu/Dentusykos/Dentysykos as "daughter of the clan" which suggests that you might have a nominative ending in -u. But if that's right, why are the Greek forms masculine? Does Thracian have no grammatical gender, like Armenian?
We've only got conjectural words:
bredas - pasture
bur - man
diza - fortress
mezena - horseman
rezas - king
rumba-anga? "curved blade" > rhompaia, falx
skaplis - axe
taru - spear
taruthin - spearman

We can only guess at how plurals were formed, but if we guess at the usual Indo-European sorts of endings we'd have the following unit names, assuming -n- is somehow agentive:

mezenas - generic horsemen
taruthinai - generic spearmen
sklapenai - axemen
rumbanganai - falxmen
zibuthizas - noble cavalry
bres skalmana - shortswordsmen (I'm pushing it now...)
kikanas - skirmishers (tribal name Cicones is said to mean "the quick people")

Building-wise, with no words for temple, it might be necessary to borrow Phrygian kavar "sacred site" and iman "idol" with more made up inflections for deity names. I was quite confident about a reconstructed Getic naming language when I started writing this. Now... meh.
:shame:

[Elmetiacos]

2. Lusitanian
First an apology because I don't know quite what ended up happening in EB1 with Lusitanian. It looks as if the project was abandoned before it was finished and Celtiberian names used instead.

I got a bit obsessed with this a while ago, particularly with a possible link between Lusitanian and Ligurian or Lepontic. The reason for this is the word PALA. It appears on an inscription, probably a memorial, usually classified as Lepontic. The inscription is written in an old Italic alphabet similar to Etruscan, on two staves with round heads; one reads slaniai : uerKalai : Pala and the other Tisiui : PiuoTialui : Pala. The two staves look like elongated Basque Hilarri.

We've got more writing in Lusitanian than in Dacian or Thracian, but still very little and we don't have as many place or personal names because it looks as if the Lusitanian rulers may have spoken Celtic. There are a whole three and a half Lusitanian inscriptions which are fairly easy to look up - they're even on Wikipedia. One says OILAM TREBOPALA INDO PORCOM LAEBO COMAIAM ICCONA LOIMINA OILAM USSEAM TREBARUNE INDI TAUROM IFADEM REUE which is usually translated as something like "A sheep (or ewe) for Trebopala and a pig for Laebo one of the same age for Iccona Loimina, a sheep of one year of age for Trebarune and a breeding bull for Reue." The inscription makes it hard to say Lusitanian is Celtic, because it's kept Indo-European P (porcom) which Celtic didn't (Irish orc "piglet") and the word for bull has the root tauro- instead of *tarwo- we'd expect from a Celtic language. Also there isn't a word for "and" like indi in any known Celtic language. In On The Indo-European Origin of Two Lusitanian Theonyms, Witczak thinks Trebopala is a goddess whose name means "Protectress of the Home" or "Protectress of the Tribe" and that Laebo should be *Lahebo, a dative plural of Laho, the equivalent of the Roman Lares. He also thinks (as do others) Iccona is a similar goddess to the Gaulish Epona.

But what if pala doesn't mean "protectress"? what if it's some sort of sacred stone like in the Ligurian/Lepontic inscriptions? Katia Maia-Bessa suggested this in her paper Syncrétisme Religieux dans la Lusitanie Romaine (I'm afraid it's in French) but without actually citing Ligurian or Lepontic. It got me thinking about a link and the possibility that both languages are "Old European" - Indo-European languages which in the early Iron Age got replaced by Celtic.

Apart from the inscriptions the other source for Lusitanian is dedications to local deities from the Roman period and usually in Latin. Unfortunately none of them say "pala" anywhere. However, Ligurian was said to have been much more widely spoken before the Etruscans, Gauls and Romans moved in, and sometimes a sign of a place having once been Ligurian is said to be a name ending with -sc-. There are only two -sc- names in Roman Iberia; Metallum Vipascense and Magasca and they're both in Lusitanian territory. This is getting a long post and I should start talking about what use it could be in EB2...

[Elmetiacos]

For deities, we've got Iccona as a possible horse goddess and following Witczak the Laho as a local spirit and Reue as the Lusitanian Zeus, then there's the two most popular dedications to the god Endovellicus (94 dedications) and the goddess Bandua (28), plus two probable war gods (possibly Celtic introductions) Coronos and Netonos. Can we get anything useful from the other inscriptions?

We might glean some Lusitanian grammar: o-stem accusatives seem to end in -om: taurom, porcom, angom. doenti probably means "they gave" (Witczak says not, but IMHO he's just tying himself in knots trying to say all I-E initial Ds become Rs - no problem if only Dy- becomes R) so you've got 3rd person plural -nt- as you'd expect (not that EB needs to conjugate verbs... even I'm not mad enough to try and do a Lusitanian voicemod) a-stem datives seem to end in -a (Iccona, Trebopala) and if Witczak's correct, dative plurals in -ebo and i-stem accusatives in -e. On the Arroyo de la Luz stone, carlae may be a locative "at Carla". But that's not much good - we need nominatives, genitives and plurals for a naming language. On Lamas de Moledo, doenti is followed by veaminicori which is a good candidate for a plural - if -cori is a cognate with Celtic *korio or just a borrowing it should be an o-stem noun. We've also got those -oi endings in caelobricoi, reaicoi petranoi... are those genitive plurals? In the Latin dedications there are lots of -aico and -aeco names Bandi Oilienaico - Bandua of the Sheep?

It might be possible to attempt more translations... As a piece of baseless speculation, Lamas de Moledo's REAICOI PETRANOI could contain a pre-Basque loan *lercoin and PIE *pet- to mean "of the cranes with spread wings" while ANGOM is probably a lamb. In Arroyo de la Luz I & II the inscription says: AMBATVS SCRIPSI CARLAE PRAISOM SECIAS ERBA MVITIE AS ARIMO PRAESONDO SINGEIETO INI AVA INDI VEA VN INDI VEDAGA ROM TEVCAECOM INDI NVRIM INDI VDEVEC RVRSENCO AMPILVA INDI LOEMINA INDI ENV PETANIM INDI ARIMOM SINTAMOM INDI TEVCOM SINTAMO. The first two words are Latin. The rest has the usual -OM endings, presumably accusatives. PRAISOM and PRAESONDO might be from PIE kwreiH- and be to do with buying and selling, but that spoils Iccona being Epona because it means labialisation of kw (a feature of Ligurian). SECIAS might derive from PIE segh- or seHg- so it might mean "fixed", "held" or "sought out". ARIMO suggests "highest". If SINGEIETO is related to Celtic Singidunon it might be something to do with falcons, so the next part INI AVA might mean "one bird", but this is guesswork and it doesn't provide anything much useful for EB2 except a possibility of a unit name - Arimi for elite cavalry. Maybe. But Arimo could just as easily refer to a deity. So there aren't really any useful words to be got apart from a possible Celtic loan net- for "warrior" that could form a basis for unit names, and a name for an infantry barracks Trebo Netenaicoi. If only the Lusitanians had sacrificed some horses, things would be that much easier...

a Lusitanian o-stem declension:
sing. / plu.
N Tauro Tauri
V *Taure *Tauroe
A Taurom *Tauro
G *Tauri Tauroi
D Tauro Taurebo
L *Tauroe *Tauroi

[Elmetiacos]

It might be possible to attempt more translations... As a piece of baseless speculation, Lamas de Moledo's REAICOI PETRANOI could contain a pre-Basque loan *lercoin and PIE *pet- to mean "of the cranes with spread wings" while ANGOM is probably a lamb.
Pshaw! I didn't look up enough Indo-European. Following Witczak, REAICOI is another of those collective genitive -aicoi plurals formed from *diewo- with the shift from d > r; PET- could well come from PIE *peit- so it probably means "of the gods of plenty". The whole inscription I'd read as something like:
"The Veaminicori give a shorn upland lamb on the great mound of all the gods of plenty (and) a pig to Jupiter Caelobrigae."
or:
"The Veaminicori give a shorn lamb from the pens to the great vessel of all the gods of plenty (and) a pig to Jupiter Caelobrigae."
I'll explain why if anyone actually cares :beam:

Here's something more useful; sound changes between proto-Indo-European and Lusitanian collected from various authors (these) or evident from the corpus of inscriptions [these], which will make it easier to make new words for things with "reasonable" accuracy:
PIE > Lusitanian
p > p [porcom]
b > b [Laebo]
bh > f (Gorrochategui)
t > t [taurom]
d > d [doenti]
dh > θ? (García Alonso)
k' > c [porcom]
g' > g by analogy; L. is centum
g'h > hj? (García Alonso)
k > c [-aicoi]
g > g/c [Attaegina/Attaecina?]
gh > h/χ? (García Alonso)
kw > p [praesondo] labialisation
gw > b as above
k'w > cc
g'w > g? ng?
gwh > w?v? [vea(un)/veaminicori?] <gwhedh- = keep*
s > s [praisom, secias]
w- > b- (García Alonso)

dy > r (Witczak) ([I]he actually thinks all Ds become Rs, I think not)
CrC > CurC (Prósper)
VrV > VhV [La(h)ebo] (Witczak)
e- > i-

*which makes VEA-MIN- (<*[I]veath-min-) equivalent to Celtiberian kombalkez, usually translated as "decreed". VEAMINICORI is possibly "the host of the proclamations", some sort of decision making assembly.

[Ibrahim]

:dizzy2::dizzy2:

interesting work-I hope some EB member will take a look.

[Elmetiacos]

A new piece of writing in Lusitanian was discovered at Ribeira da Venda in 2008 and a paper on it (only in Portuguese, alas) has been published on it:http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/28/40/09carneiroetal.pdf.
The inscription reads:
[- - - - - - - -] XX • OILAM • ERBAM
HARASE • OILA • X • BROENEIAE • H
OILA • X • REVE AHARACVI • T • AV [...]
IFATE(or IEATE) • X • BANDI HARACVI AV [....]
MVNITIE CARIA(or CARLA) CANTIBIDONE •
APINVS • VENDICVS • ERIACAINV[S]
OVOVIANI [?]
ICCINVI • PANDITI • ATTEDIA • M • TR
PVMPI • CANTI • AILATIO

It's being discussed on the Continental Celtic list. I've also been told by someone who knows a lot more than me that Iccona probably isn't Epona, and that k'w becoming cc and not p is unlikely. Also, this new inscription has harase and (a)haracui, so -r- between vowels (above) can only become -h- before E.

[cmacq]

and that k'w becoming cc and not p is unlikely.


Well then...

there goes my surname.


CmacQ

[Elmetiacos]

Well then...

there goes my surname.

CmacQ
It's only Lusitanian problem and I doubt your surname is Lustanian. The problem for this language is that we've got plenty to suggest labialised velars becoming labials (kw > p and gw > b, in other words) as they did in Greek and 'P-Celtic' Gaulish, but didn't in Latin, 'Q-Celtic' Irish or Celtiberian, such as PRAESONDO and PVMPI. A goddess called Iccona who's the same as the Gaulish Epona appears to go against this, with the only explanation being that Lusitanian changed kw into p but not k'w (an palatalised labialised velar... did I just say that?) However... apparently that is unlikely because most centum Indo-European languages merged the k'w and kw sounds a long time before the kw > p shift (which took place quite late - 1st half of the 1st millennium BC) so Lusitanian would have to have been weird and either kept the sounds separate or undergone the shift very early.

[cmacq]

However... apparently that is unlikely because most centum Indo-European languages merged the k'w and kw sounds a long time before the kw > p shift (which took place quite late - 1st half of the 1st millennium BC)


In the initial stage wouldn't the p shift have to had occurred a bit before that???


CmacQ

[Elmetiacos]

Linear B Greek has the Kw sound intact, in Ancient Greek it's become P. The timeline for Celtic is roughly the same, because it had not occured before the language was established in the Iberian Penninsula and Ireland, putting it in the Hallstatt era. PIE had broken up by ~2000BC at the very latest (and most think at least 1000 years earlier) so we'd be looking (in the absence of evidence from Linear B or Hittite) at the loss of a separate k'w in the early 2nd millennium BC. Therefore, Lusitanian would have to cling on to the separate sounds and/or undergo full labialisation 500-1000 years out of sync with its neighbours.

Also for the Epona-ists, there's the problem of Loiminna. If this is an epithet of Iccona, how can it occur on its own in Arroyo de la Luz? Normally double theonyms only appear when a Roman deity is equated with a native one (e.g. Minerva Sulis) but Iccona isn't a Roman import. I'm beginning to think Iccona isn't a goddess at all.

[cmacq]

before the kw > p shift (which took place quite late - 1st half of the 1st millennium BC)

Precision
Now we’re talking my language. Two small problems here. First, although it represents a form of Greek used in Greece during the Near Eastern Late Bronze Age, Linear B (the writing system) when out of use as the Mycenaean world fell apart. Second, as Mycenaean Greek was primarily restricted to the Greek cul-de-sac, this language could not have represented the mainstream of where Centrum Indo-European was developing. And we all know where that was, right? Well, we all know it wasn't in Greece.

Insertion of Dorian Greeks together with their fellow travelers bears this point quite well. Rather, this alone indicates that the P-shift was occurring during the last two centuries (possibly a bit earlier) of the 2nd millennium BC, otherwise neither the Dorians nor the Latins would have landed were they did, when they did, with their Ps firmly in hand. The important thing is that the worlds of the west and near east completely changed in these few centuries. Its like standing on one side of the grand canyon and seeing the rim of the other side.





CmacQ

[Elmetiacos]

Okay, you may be able to close the gap a bit for the Greeks, but it doesn't affect the early-mid 1st millennium BC date for the Celtic sound shift and since you're saying Greek is away from the mainstream, the Celtic date should be more relevant to the rest (Ligurian, Osco-Umbrian and presumably Lusitanian) Also, remember that prior to 2000BC for the break-up of PIE is the most extreme late date possible with the late dates for Kültepe Hittite and Armenian urheimat theory and all of that. Take any other theory, or even earlier dates for Hittite, and Lusitanian has to stay weird for another 500-4000 years (leaving aside raving bonkers Palaeolithic Continuity theory)

Latin doesn't have labialisation: ΄ιππος = equus.

[cmacq]

Okay, you may be able to close the gap a bit for the Greeks, but it doesn't affect the early-mid 1st millennium BC date for the Celtic sound shift and since you're saying Greek is away from the mainstream, the Celtic date should be more relevant to the rest (Ligurian, Osco-Umbrian and presumably Lusitanian) Also, remember that prior to 2000BC for the break-up of PIE is the most extreme late date possible with the late dates for Kültepe Hittite and Armenian urheimat theory and all of that. Take any other theory, or even earlier dates for Hittite, and Lusitanian has to stay weird for another 500-4000 years (leaving aside raving bonkers Palaeolithic Continuity theory)

Latin doesn't have labialisation: ΄ιππος = equus.

Actually I had Greece not Greek, as there were many forms of the latter and but one of the former. As for Celt in the linguistic sense, I suppose that all depends on which form is being addressed. For example on Goidelic, which is indeed a form of Celt, what date would one impose for a P-shift?





CmacQ

[Elmetiacos]

Actually I had Greece not Greek, as there were many forms of the latter and but one of the former. As for Celt in the linguistic sense, I suppose that all depends on which form is being addressed. For example on Goidelic, which is indeed a form of Celt, what date would one impose for a P-shift?
CmacQ
Goidellic? Never, obviously. The kw > p shift in Gaulish is hard to tie down exactly, but must have occurred some time between the break up of proto-Celtic in the Hallstatt era and the appearance of inscriptions such as the "Latumaros" Vase (c.200BC?) which definitely show the process complete. Goidellic kept the sound long intact (so the Ogams have MAQ, modern Irish & Scots Gaelic mac) while Celtiberian simplified it to a k.

[cmacq]

Goidellic? Never, obviously. The kw > p shift in Gaulish is hard to tie down exactly, but must have occurred some time between the break up of proto-Celtic in the Hallstatt era and the appearance of inscriptions such as the "Latumaros" Vase (c.200BC?) which definitely show the process complete. Goidellic kept the sound long intact (so the Ogams have MAQ, modern Irish & Scots Gaelic mac) while Celtiberian simplified it to a k.

So carefully now, based on the time frame and setting you provided before, for the P-shift, your actually saying that Goidellic is proto-Celt?


CmacQ

[Elmetiacos]

So carefully now, based on the time frame and setting you provided before, for the P-shift, your actually saying that Goidellic is proto-Celt?

CmacQ
No. I'm saying that the change from kw to p must date from after Celtic was introduced into Ireland, because that particular change never happened in Ireland. Since that's usually dated to between 700 and 500BC, and proto-Celtic ceasing to be spoken as a single language between ~1200 and 800BC.

The point is the very large gap in time between the centum/satem split, with the latter merging the k'w and kw sounds, and the full labialisation in Celtic, Greek and Italic. It would be very strange for Lusitanian to be undergoing labialisation (an early 1st millenium BC phenomenon for everyone else) before it had differentiated kw and k'w which is something reckoned to have happened before - probably well before - 2000BC. It therefore looks as if Iccona could not derive from PIE *ek'wo- and isn't Epona.

[cmacq]

No. I'm saying that the change from kw to p must date from after Celtic was introduced into Ireland.

So by Celts in Ireland, you of course mean the Menapii? Or is that the Herpeditani???




CmacQ

[Elmetiacos]

So by Celts in Ireland, you of course mean the Menapii? Or is that the Herpeditani???

CmacQ
Huh? I haven't even heard of the last one.

[Subotan]

Despite the fact that I am only able to understand 1/10th of this thread, I liek it very much.

[Mediolanicus]

Despite the fact that I am only able to understand 1/10th of this thread, I liek it very much.


I second that.

[Elmetiacos]

Despite the fact that I am only able to understand 1/10th of this thread, I liek it very much.
Abbreviations are confusing: PIE stands for Proto-Indo-European, the conjectural language spoken 5,000 years or more ago, the ancestor of all the languages spoken in Europe*, Northern India** and Iran***. The sign > means "eventually turned into" while < means "derives from" and kw is like a k-sound but made while rounding your lips... it's not quite the same as kw.

*except Hungarian, Finnish, Saami and Estonian (Uralic languages) and Basque, which has no relatives.
** except Burushaski, which is a weird language with no relatives (probably)
*** except Turkmen and Azeri (Altaic languages)

[Subotan]

Oh, I knew what PIE was; I even told a joke about it today (It wasn't very good). Also, shouldn't Etruscan be included as an isolate?

[Elmetiacos]

...or part of a Tyrrhenian family with Lemnaic and possibly Rhaetic, but nobody speaks Etruscan anymore.

[Subotan]

Nice. What are the roots of the Tyrrhenian family?

[Elmetiacos]

Don't know much about it; it's based on similarities between what's written the Lemnos stele and some Etruscan words. Some people include Rhaetic in the group as well, but others think that Rhaetic is IE. There are other rumours of languages spoken in Greece before Greek ("Pelasgian") which could belong as well.

[gamegeek2]

(NOTE - " ' " is written in place of the glottal stop, ʔ, to make it easier to read. Trust me, this is much easier to read than the original version.)


Howis 'ekwoses-kwe

Howis, kwesio wulneħ ne 'est, 'ekwoms speket, 'oinom krhum wogʰom wegʰontm, hoinom-kwe megehm bʰerom, hoinom-kwe dʰ'gʰmonm 'o'ku bʰerontm. Howis nu 'ekwobʰjos wewkwet: "Kard ħegʰnutoi moi, 'ekwoms ħegontm wi'rom widntei." 'ekwōs tu wewkwont: "Kludʰi, howi, kardes ħegʰuntoi nsmei widntbʰjos: ħner, poris, howjom-r wulneħm swebʰi kʰermom westrom kwrneuti. Howjom-kwe wulneħ ne 'esti." To kekluwos howis ħegrom bʰuget.


The Sheep and the Horses

A sheep, who had no wool, saw horses, one pulling a heavy wagon, one carrying a big load, and one carrying a man quickly. The sheep said to the horses: "My heart pains me, seeing a man driving horses." The horses said: "Listen, sheep, our hearts pain us when we see this: a man, the master, makes the wool of the sheep into a warm garment for himself. And the sheep has no wool". Having heard this, the sheep fled into the plain.

[Elmetiacos]

I've read that before. Sometimes I think our ancestors must have gone around with really bad sore throats.

[Ibrahim]

I've read that before. Sometimes I think our ancestors must have gone around with really bad sore throats.


yeah, true that.

but does anyone here bow what those wierd sounds are (the kw, bw, and gw are about?

and is that crossed h like an arabic ha' sound? (like a really think h I guess is the best way to put it)

[bovi]

As far as I can remember there are three different H's in Arabic: the guttural, the short (like latin H) and the "breathing" one? It's been 10 years since I learned the tiny bit I know though.

[Ibrahim]

As far as I can remember there are three different H's in Arabic: the guttural, the short (like latin H) and the "breathing" one? It's been 10 years since I learned the tiny bit I know though.


you got it only partly right:

1-gutteral H (that's what I was asking about)
2-normal h (like english)

otherwise, there are no other h-sounds. here is a chart of consonents for Arabic, as per IPA (classical arabic, from the 6th-9th century AD)*:

alif=ʔ
ba'=b
ta'=t
tha'=θ
gim=ɟ or gʲ (simultanious g and y (as in yet)
ha'(gutteral)=ħ
kha'=χ
dal=d
dhal=ð
ra'=r
zayn=z
seen=s or ʃ (it did vary)
sheen=ç
tsad=sˤ
dad=ɬˤ
ta'=tˤ
dha'=ðˤ
ayin=ʕ
ghayin=ʁ
fa'=f
qaf=q
kaf=k
lam=l
meem=m
nun=n
ha'=h
waw=w
ya'= j

*classical pronunciation =/= modern pronunciation. the ta' marbutah was either pronunced /h/ or /t/

[gamegeek2]

The crossed h makes the same sound as Arabic Ha (the one that's like the Jim and Kha, the guttural one). The normal one is like the H in english. I'm learning Arabic right now, have the alphabet pretty much down and am just starting to learn speaking it...

kw is like Latin qu. Someone translate Howis 'Ekwoseskwe into Latin, please.

[gamegeek2]

Here's another fable, The King and the God (Reks deiwos-kwe)


Proto-Indo-European

To rēks 'est. So-kwe ngntos 'est. Sūnum-kwe wlnet so gʰuterom prsket "Sūnus moi gnjotām!" Gʰutḗr nu rēgom wewkwet: "Ewekʰo gʰi deiwom Wérunom." Upo pro rēks-kwe djēm sesore djēm-kwe ewekʰto. "Kludʰi me, pater Wérune!" So nu kmta deiwos kāt. "Kwod wlnesi?" "Wlnemi sūnum." "Tod éstu," wewkwet leukos deiwos. Rēkos potni gʰi sūnum gegone.


Proto-Indo-Iranian

Ta rāgs āst. Sa-ka ajātás āst, sū́num-ka ávr̥nat sa gʰutrám̥ ápr̥skat “Sūnus mai gnjatām!” Gʰutār nu rāgam avaukat: “Avagʰe gʰi dēvam Varu̥nam.” Upa pra rāgs-ka dēvam sásara dēvam-ka ávagʰta. “Srudʰí ma, pitár Váru̥ne!" Sa nu káta dēvas gāt. “Kad vr̥nasi?” “Vr̥nami sū́num”. “Tat éstu," ávaukat rauķás dḗvas. Rāgas patnī gʰi sū́num gágana.

Once there was a king. He was childless. The king wanted a son. He asked his priest: "May a son be born to me!" The priest said to the king: "Pray to the god Werunos". The king approached the god Werunos to pray now to the god. "Hear me, father Werunos!" The god Werunos came down from heaven. "What do you want?" "I want a son." "Let this be so", said the bright god Werunos. The king's lady bore a son.

[Ibrahim]

The crossed h makes the same sound as Arabic Ha (the one that's like the Jim and Kha, the guttural one). The normal one is like the H in english. I'm learning Arabic right now, have the alphabet pretty much down and am just starting to learn speaking it...

kw is like Latin qu. Someone translate Howis 'Ekwoseskwe into Latin, please.

that is correct (basically what I said):yes:

and thanks for clarifying the kw thingy. :thumbsup:

[Elmetiacos]

All the consonants with the little w's are "labialised" consonants, meaning that you pronounce them at the same time as rounding your lips.

[gamegeek2]

Howis*, kwesio wulneħ* ne 'est, 'ekwoms* speket, 'oinom* krhum wogʰom wegʰontm, hoinom-kwe*
megehm* bʰerom, hoinom-kwe dʰgʰmonm* 'o'ku bʰerontm*. Howis nu 'ekwobʰjos wewkwet: "Kard* moi* ħegʰnutoi, 'ekwoms ħegontm* wi'rom widntei*." 'ekwōses tu wewkwont: "Kludʰi, howi, kardes ħegʰuntoi nsmei* widntbʰjos: ħner, poris, howjom-r wulneħm swebʰi* kʰermom westrom kwrneuti. Howjom-kwe wulneħ ne 'esti." To kekluwos howis ħegrom bʰuget.

The words with asterisks have Latin counterparts that are cognates.

howis - ovis
widntei - vidunt
wulneħ - laneus
'ekwos - equus
'oinom - unum
krhum - carrus
wegʰont - vehunt
kwe - que
megehm - magnum
kard - cor
moi - meus
dʰgʰmonm - homo
bʰeront - ferrunt (ferrēre)
ħegont - agunt (agēre)
nsmei - nos
swebʰi - suus

[KingOfTheIsles]

Fascinating. I add:

war>crīgā(gave german 'krieg' and danish 'krig')
(gave -possibly- 'cri' and 'crier', French "shout", noun and verb)
fight>skermō(gave the word 'skirmish')
die>dhewə (gave Deyja(old norse))
(and this word Deyja -possibly- gave 'déjà', French "already")
kill>colḗjō (nothing to explain here)
(gave -possibly- colère, French "anger")
destroy>dheukō (here neither...)
(gave -possibly- dragon, if you pronounce the "h" like in German)

Are you claiming these etymologies to be true, or is this just conjecture? Several are almost certainly completely false, and the rest seem dubious.


For example on Goidelic, which is indeed a form of Celt, what date would one impose for a P-shift?

I don't get this question. Seeing as Irish is Q-Celtic, the proto-celtic labiovelar became a plain velar sound, rather than a labial sound, as in Gaulish and Brythonic. So there was never a P-shift in Goidelic.


Linear B Greek has the Kw sound intact, in Ancient Greek it's become P.

This, presumably, accounts for the difference between the Ancient Greek hippos and the Latin equus? It is interesting that the labiovelar stop>labial stop shift seemingly occurred in what appeared to be separate IE families. I had always believed this to be unique to P-Celtic, but after a little research it also appears to have happened in Oscan as well as Greek.

As a side note, how exactly do you reconstruct the syntax and morphology of proto-gemanic? (I assume that this is what is used for the Sweboz) Is it just a case of making educated guesses based on the current syntax in Germanic languages? Was there even a fixed word order? (SOV would have been my guess)

[Elmetiacos]

This, presumably, accounts for the difference between the Ancient Greek hippos and the Latin equus? It is interesting that the labiovelar stop>labial stop shift seemingly occurred in what appeared to be separate IE families. I had always believed this to be unique to P-Celtic, but after a little research it also appears to have happened in Oscan as well as Greek.

As a side note, how exactly do you reconstruct the syntax and morphology of proto-gemanic? (I assume that this is what is used for the Sweboz) Is it just a case of making educated guesses based on the current syntax in Germanic languages? Was there even a fixed word order? (SOV would have been my guess)
Latin equus is indeed cognate with Greek hippos, both from PIE *H1ek'wo-. There are, as you say, what might be called P and Q Italic (although some people would kick Latin and its closest relative, Faliscan, out of the Italic family) Ligurian is another dead language that seems to have had the kw > p shift and some Lusitanian words like praisom, praesondo and pumpi are good candidates to be derived from PIE kw- initials, suggesting it had done the same - unlike its Celtiberian neighbour.

You'll have to talk to Blitzkrieg80 about the Germanic stuff.