Northeastern North American Indian Warfare

[Hosakawa Tito]

While reading Champlain's Dream: by David Hackett Fischer I became intrigued, again, by his account of the warfare, tactics & strategies employed by the Northeastern tribes of the Huron and their Iroquois enemies in the St. Lawrence Valley. The assumption by most is that the natives only used guerrilla tactics of ambush & raiding, no unit formations, no body armor, no siege tactics or machines etc... and in actuality this is far from the truth. Champlain's' first military encounter as an ally of the Hurons in an attack on a superior force of Mohawk warriors described in this book dispels the myth of the "skulking Indian".

Here's a link for more info (http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/ethnohistory/v046/46.4keener.html) on the subject. At the bottom of the page is a bibliography of the reference material. I can't wait to purchase and read some of these books.

[Polemists]

There is a vareity of intrigue for alot of us. While I'm sure CA wants to make the factions as playable and fun as possible I see the Indian war aspects as a little bit of flavor that could either really help the game, or just be a bleh feature.

On the one hand the diplomacy between the Indians and the Europeans/Colonials, Techonlogy trades, and proxy wars, all make for very interesting game play. Oh the other hand I fear they will be put in as just a generic faction made up of vastly outnumbering guys with axes and javelin throws (Anyone remeber Mayans in kingdoms?)

We'll see but with so much focus on governments, rebellion, gunpowder, navies, etc, etc, not sure how much attention third party factions will recieve, if any.

[AussieGiant]

I think the expectations will need to be tempered in this part of the game. It's argueably a marginal aspect of the game so I don't see CA spending too much time on it.

[Fisherking]

If it is marginal then they will have a lot of explaining to do to a large share of the market!

In these times they were the key to power in North America and as allies and trading partners they were of great worth.

The proxy wars the Indians fought were trade wars more than anything else.

Also almost all of the Eastern Tribes built fortifications. They were often referred to as Castles. There tactics were not unsophisticated and while ambush was used pitch battles were also a part of war.
Even the ambush was more sophisticated than you likely know. The L shaped ambush is a legacy of Indian combat. Making them underpowered or just mobs of men with axes would be a big mistake.

[Mailman653]

Might get more attention in an expansion. Generally speaking, most of the games action will still take place in Europe.

[Oleander Ardens]

A great read and find.

It certainly shows that European technologies and siege tatics were both rapidly aquired and incorporated in new ingenous procedures and techniques.

[Fisherking]

Might get more attention in an expansion. Generally speaking, most of the games action will still take place in Europe.


Only if you have no colonies! If you have interests elsewhere in the world you had better be prepared to fight to keep them. If you only fight in Europe you will only have interests in Europe. All the rest will belong to others.

Wars of this time were fought on a global scale by the powers that had overseas colonies. If however you are only going to play as a land-locked European then by all means, Europe is your world.

[Sheogorath]

Sadly, I hold no great hopes for CA's treatment of the natives. This is very much a game made for Napoleonic enthusiasts, with, from what I've seen, a very European viewpoint.

I think the best that can be hoped for for the natives is that they get decent skirmisher units and the ability to hide in tall grass.

[Fisherking]

Something else to remember is that those Indians with bows had a higher rate of fire than the muskets and from cover they had a substantial advantage that didn’t go away until after this game time is over and the cap and ball revolver (1832) or repeating rifles came into use (1862). The also had a range advantage (in the hands of those natives) over the musket. That is why tactics had to change when fighting them and line tactics where only practical when facing other European troops without Indian allies.

So why did the Indians bother with guns? Well it is harder to dodge a bullet than an arrow and native shields didn’t stop bullets.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

As usual, we rely on the flexibility granted to modders for such matters.

[Polemists]

Yep, as much as I'd like to see this treated well, I think expansions are where it goes (For instance Age of Empires 3 didn't deal with it all to well, but in Warchiefs expansion they did.)

Judging by part natives played in MTW2 expansion, i'm sure it will be one of the 4 ETW expansions.


Though considering how mayans of MTW2 were treated, I don't see it being much more then that.

I mean the game is going to focus on empires, so I assume all the local populations will kind of get jumbeled together with almost all uniquness being given to the 12 playable factions.

[AussieGiant]

While there is a massive market in the States and CA is well aware of it, and I certainly understand that our American colleagues are salivating over the prospect of playing their nation at the very inception of it's creation...

...it is a frontier area competing against other frontier areas and is arguably far down the pecking order of things they really need to focus on.

I'm just trying to keep my expectations in check on some areas of the game.

[Polemists]

I certainly understand that our American colleagues are salivating over the prospect of playing their nation at the very inception of it's creation...

Not sure how many are salivating tho, most Americans I know (myself included) view it with muted interest. Mostly because we know how it works, and the strategy in game will be strategy that is mostly same in real life. Sure you may ally with someone else this time, but let's face it your going to conquer north america, then it will be end of game. Maybe you wander carribean but I don't see 13 colonies being able to go against European powers or Indies. Again CA is in Britain so I know they know little about Americans but American History is one of the classes kids are least enthuisatic about these days, dunno why game would be different. That said, 13 colonies are in game, playable, so it's a mute point.

I think Indian warfare deserves at least a tiny bit of attention. Otherwise playing 13 colonies is going to suck. I mean if all you do is launch all these cool units against, wave after wave, of half naked guys with clubs, with no real additional units, it'd get boring quick. I at least hope they have some event, maybe if indian wars start up and proxy nations get involved they rise up who knows.

[Fisherking]

There was a big difference between the Indians in South and Central America and those of North America.

From the very beginning the North American Indians had successes in fighting off the Spanish. Hernando de Soto had a tough time of exploring and was close to being wiped out on several occasions. The Chickasaw had him and allowed him to go. We know what happened to early Viking attempts to settle and the lost colony of Rowatan. Guns, horses, and armor were not the magic in eastern North America that they were in the southwest and Central America.

Also this is a different time period. CA does do historical research. Just because they treated the Indians badly in Kingdoms does not mean that the same must hold true for Empire.

You also have to consider the US/Canadian markets, with people who have different expectations of Indian Warfare. People who still carry some of that historical fear of Indian Attack. It is in the physique.

It is also widely held that the only reason the European Immigrants won was the disunity of the Tribes.

If they nerff the Indians and do a poor job with them, there is going to be an outcry. If they are actually doing the 13 Colonies then they(the Indians) should be a major factor in success or failure. It would be like not having Elephants in India!

If it is bad I know I am going to scream! I suspect that others will too. Some of you are looking for George Washington, Wellington, or Nappy… I am looking for William Johnson, Pontiac and some others you won‘t know.

If they add areas outside Europe then they have to do them well. It can‘t just be Europe and those other places. Europeans may see the world that way but look at the markets.
North America must represent not less than 50% of the potential. I don‘t think they want to shoot themselves in the foot.


:sweatdrop:I am hoping for the best:2thumbsup:

If they don’t deliver than it may seem like a different Total War.
:hmg:

[AussieGiant]

Don't get me wrong, I certainly hope they do justice to the indigenous populations in the various frontier regions...I'm just not sure they have the time though.

American history is widely taught in the places I have lived and the people I speak to from other countries so I certainly expect CA to have done their homework fully on this matter.

Whether they have the resources or not to implement it well...that is my concern.

Hence the 'expectation management' on my behalf.

[Hosakawa Tito]

The reason I posted this is to try to expel accepted common myths about the Native Americans in this region and from the time period depicted in the game. I live in Western New York within a couple of long bowshots from the Seneca Nation "Keepers of the Western Door" of the Iroquois Confederation. I have boyhood friends and school mates who are Senecas, and have some experience with their ancient culture so I find this history very interesting personally. I never realized that they used "wooden armor" much like the Samurai or that they fought in "formations" not unlike European armies of the time period till I read this account of Samuel Champlain. I have no idea how CA will depict the Native Tribes in ETW, however I just like to know the real history behind the game and it's characters, and wanted to share that. Why did the French not emphasize colonization over maximizing short-term profit in the fur trade? Why did the Spanish not vie with the English,French, & Dutch for the mid-atlantic and new england area? How did the religious wars in Europe shape the building of global empires by the European powers? This book, Champlain's Dream: by David Hackett Fischer, and the others listed in the link help fill that knowledge of history in.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Judging from one of the screenshots, the native American factions will fight in quite an organised fashion. It looked a bit wrong IMO, although after looking at this thread I may be wrong.

[Megas Methuselah]

People who still carry some of that historical fear of Indian Attack. It is in the physique.

:inquisitive: .... What?

[PBI]

Great find Hosa, a fascinating read.

While I fear that given the global scope of Empire there will not be time for sufficient detail on the Native Americans to truly do them justice, it could be a setting for a fantastic mod - a true EB for the New World.

[Oleander Ardens]

Well, the European powers are both the yardstick and the knit of E:TW. Others nations should be measured on how well they compare with European prowness. Thus I hope that CA will give us a realistic and enjoyable presentation and content of the other forces in the game, and will no try too hard to "balance" units and factions. If MTWII is the benchmark, than I fear more too powerful units with too high morale.

[Sheogorath]

:inquisitive: .... What?

Living in Arizona, I can confirm this.
I live in constant fear of an Apache war band riding down the street in my neighborhood. :yes:

[Fisherking]

Well, the European powers are both the yardstick and the knit of E:TW. Others nations should be measured on how well they compare with European prowness. Thus I hope that CA will give us a realistic and enjoyable presentation and content of the other forces in the game, and will no try too hard to "balance" units and factions. If MTWII is the benchmark, than I fear more too powerful units with too high morale.


Yes a good yard stick that! The French were the great military power at the start and until the 1820s anyway.

Who won the French Iroquois War? Oh it was not the French!

How long did the Chickasaw fight the French and their allied tribes? More than 50 years, and they were still there when the French gave up West Florida.

What broke the power of the tribes was disease more than war, and that took about 300 years. So if they make them weaker than Europeans they had better have a good explanation!

[Oleander Ardens]

Yes a good yard stick that! The French were the great military power at the start and until the 1820s anyway.

Frankly you don't seem to understand why the European powers, especially the French and the English must be the yardstick. They fought on almost all terrain covered by ETW, making them by far the best reference for CA to hone the unit stats.



Who won the French Iroquois War? Oh it was not the French!

I wonder if you actually read about the various wars between the French and their Indian allies and the Iroquois and their European allies. It is certainly an interesting chapter, but which should be discussed with proper rigour in the monestary.

It should be noted that around 1645 the Iroquois with roughly 25000-30000 members (before assimilating thousends of Hurons) massively outnumbered the French, who could count on less than 3000. They were very well supplied with guns and organized. Therefor it was mostly battled out by Iroquios and French allies. The French hat not sufficient manpower to annihilate the Iroquois and the Iroquis could not defeat the outnumbered French. Around 1700 both sides decided to make peace because the English were dangerously expanding.


How long did the Chickasaw fight the French and their allied tribes? More than 50 years, and they were still there when the French gave up West Florida.

They were still there, because the posed hardly anymore a thread, after being hit by raids and blockades. Still it should be discussed at the monastery.


What broke the power of the tribes was disease more than war, and that took about 300 years. So if they make them weaker than Europeans they had better have a good explanation!

What exactly broke the power of the various tribes can better be discussed in the monastery. Diseases, the changing balance of manpower and superior organization doomed them. Once regular troops in good numbers appeared on the battlefields of Nothern America the military tide was turned and with some notable exceptions the European powers won encounter after encounter.

[Fisherking]

@ Oleander Ardens


I don’t disagree that England and France are De facto yardsticks of military power. What I am trying to say is that the Indian Tribes in North America should not be a speed bump to be rolled over at will. They were exhalent fighters who usual gave as good or better than they got.

The French Iroquois War was just an example. They pinned down the French and defeated their allies one at a time, pretty much emptying the Ohio valley of tribes and through them allowed the English to lay claim to the land which had been French. It was the Iroquois entering the war that brought and end to French Empire in North America. (why I want to see William Johnson in the game)

Much of the depth of this subject is lost because this is about how they should be portrayed in the game and not what ultimately happened well into the 19th century.

Within the game the Tribes should still be powerful at least in the beginning. They were the powers that allowed the Europeans to establish colonies and trade with them helped both parties, and to some extent allowed settlement to take place.

Disease and internal decent broke there power allowing European style armies to subdue them, that and important changes in the logistical infrastructure. Otherwise those armies couldn’t take the field.

Man for man they usually out fought the Europeans and only when they were vastly outnumbered and in decline were they finally defeated and subdued…and that with the aid of other tribes to scout for those European style armies.


Ultimately though, we have to see what they have come up with in February and either rejoice or complain.

:sweatdrop:

[Oleander Ardens]

While I don't agree that the various tribes outfought Europeans man per man I sincerly hope that the Native Americans get the attention they deserve.

About the fighting prowness of the various units and men in the American theather:

1) Sweeping statements about it are impossible to sustain as the various combinations of external conditions and military factors are manifold. Ambushes and Raids, open battles, sieges, direct and indirect approaches suited the various organisations and members to a differnt degree. This qualities determine usually the strenght of units in an TW battlefield.

2) European forces excelled in open battles and direct sieges against fortified Indian settlements when they stayed put. Even the creative Iroquois prefered by far the indirect attacks, by isolating the forts and raiding the vicinity because European forts where a far thougher nut to crack than a fortified Indian settlement. Sadly this qualities don't shine as much on a TW battlefield.

3) Indians excelled in the petit guerre, ambushes and raids and some, as the Iroquois mastered the stealthy, long-ranged raid which great forces enabling them to threaten even large European settlements. Still their targets where by far and large other Indian Nations. However also European units proved adept at adopting classic skirmishing tactics to the American environment and greatly used ambushes and raids against opposing forces and settlements and forts.

4) The European powers, especially the French recognized the strategic and tactical advantages of Indian allies as the Indians did vice versa. Native tribes where quit lost without European support against Tribes with it. European forces without Indian scouting and support were much more suscitable to loss of supplies and ambushes.

Certainly it is an interesting topic and deserves a mod or a add-on if the implementation is not so good in the original ETW.