Pyrrhus of Epirus

[artavazd]

I'm curiouse, is Pyrruhs a Persian name? "Pihrooz" means victory in Persian (I think) was the guys name "victory?"

[machinor]

"Pyrrhos" is Greek meaning "red" or "fire-red", iirc.

[gamegeek2]

'Pyros' is, if I'm not mistaken, the word for fire. The word for red (adjective) would, I believe, be 'ereuthos'.

The IE (Indo-European) roots for 'red' and 'fire' are "reudh-" and "pir-", which match Greek perfectly.

[keravnos]

Pyrrhos means red true, but also "fire-y red" and "of fire-y spirit".

My interpretation is the following...
"Fire-y" being the key word here. IIRC, Achaimenid Persians were Fire worshipers. This means that "Fire-y" red to them would associate with victory, hence "Pirooz" came to mean "Victorious".

There is deffinitely some roots to Old Persian, which causes me to accept the IndoEuropean theory.

Once every year, all the Epeirotes would gather to Passarona to pay tribute to Zeus Areios and re-give their oaths to serve their King. "Areios" is an adjective only given by Epeirotes to Zeus and means " "Superior" or "Warlike", as ever, opinions differ. This is very close to what "Iran" means today, as IIRC it means "Lands of the Aryans".

I said it before and I will say it again. I accept the theory which says that all of IndoEuropeans came from the Ukrainian and Russian steppes. Those who went into the Balkans became Thraikians, Illyrians, Greeks, those who went into the east became Persians, Saka, Tokharoi (Yuehzi). There are too many similarities to ignore.

[The Persian Cataphract]

There are similarities, but they are quite linguistically separated in their own right; Pyrrhus would be a cognate to the modern "pyre" which of course is a fire. Now it is possible to speculate that the connotation of sacral "victory" which is a principal factor in the Zoroastrian methodology and its dualism is directly connected through an avatar, such as a fire. However the issue remains sketchy. At first Pyrrhus and Pêrûz sound incredibly similar, but this might have only been a slight coincidence.

[gamegeek2]

I also accept the theory that the IndoEuropeans are from the steppes north of the Caucasus and Black/Caspian seas, about where the Sauromatae are in the campaign.

Pyrrhos is, indeed different from Pyros, "fire-y" would definitely make more sense.

Frankly, if you look at the proto-iranian word "Aryana" (their self-ethnonym), if you change the r to an "l" ('l's became 'r's when IE became Indo-Iranian, if I'm not mistaken) and add an "H" before it, as is common before PIE words that start with vowels, you end up with "Halana", which becomes "Hellene", if you add in the Ionic pattern of changing many 'a's to 'e's. For more proof for my theory, look at "Alana", the ethnonym for the Alans (derived from "Aryana") and change it the same way.

The other explanation would indeed by the "Areios" connection. The Indo-Iranians were famed conquerors (look what they did to previously Dravidian India!) Also, if you look at the Hellenization of "Aryana", it's "Areianes," proof for this other theory.

[machinor]

Frankly, if you look at the proto-iranian word "Aryana" (their self-ethnonym), if you change the r to an "l" ('l's became 'r's when IE became Indo-Iranian, if I'm not mistaken) and add an "H" before it, as is common before PIE words that start with vowels, you end up with "Halana", which becomes "Hellene", if you add in the Ionic pattern of changing many 'a's to 'e's. For more proof for my theory, look at "Alana", the ethnonym for the Alans (derived from "Aryana") and change it the same way.
This sounds a bit like crowbar-etymology to me, to be honest.

[gamegeek2]

You're probably right. It's just a theory, though. I'm just throwing something out there. I'm not saying I'm right, as I'm probably not.

[artavazd]

I also accept the theory that the IndoEuropeans are from the steppes north of the Caucasus and Black/Caspian seas, about where the Sauromatae are in the campaign.
Pyrrhos is, indeed different from Pyros, "fire-y" would definitely make more sense.

Frankly, if you look at the proto-iranian word "Aryana" (their self-ethnonym), if you change the r to an "l" ('l's became 'r's when IE became Indo-Iranian, if I'm not mistaken) and add an "H" before it, as is common before PIE words that start with vowels, you end up with "Halana", which becomes "Hellene", if you add in the Ionic pattern of changing many 'a's to 'e's. For more proof for my theory, look at "Alana", the ethnonym for the Alans (derived from "Aryana") and change it the same way.

The other explanation would indeed by the "Areios" connection. The Indo-Iranians were famed conquerors (look what they did to previously Dravidian India!) Also, if you look at the Hellenization of "Aryana", it's "Areianes," proof for this other theory.

Anther theory states that the IndoEuropeans originated from the Armenian Highlands. Frankly I think this theory gives a stronger argument.



http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/6507/chronicle120.html

[gamegeek2]

I actually think that they are from just north of the Caucasus Mountains, where the Siracae are in EB. It makes the most sense. Or the actual Caucasus range.

[artavazd]

Did you read the article I provided? The Steppe theory does not hold up when the spread of agriculture which is tied with the movement of the Indo-europeans is discussed. There was no form of agriculture in the steppes, and yet the Armenian highlands is one of the oldest places for the neolithic revolution. Also many Proto IE words deal with agriculture, and a Mountainous enviroment.
I have also read I think it was from a Zoroastrian source, how the Aryans (Iranians) view where they come from. They state that they came from the Arax valley, which is in Armenia. TPC can more clearly state what this source is exactly.


Now the steppes most Precisely around Ukraine was a second "gathering" of the IE tribes who were on the move. However the initial homeland is more likely to be located in the Armenian Highlands.

[IrishHitman]

Weren't the Celts from a bit further east? South of Poland maybe?

[artavazd]

Weren't the Celts from a bit further east? South of Poland maybe?

By the time we get "Celts", "Armenians", "Greeks" ect. The great migration from the IE homeland has been made. When we talk about the IE homeland this is WAAAY before we get stratified into the diffrent ethnicities.

[The Persian Cataphract]

There is no consensus on the matter; so many new findings within the greater Iranian cultural continent are made with so much haste that the issue is getting even fuzzier as we speak; however, these findings are very heavily concentrated in the north-western Iranian frontier, which of course constitutes what once was the commonwealth Armenian sphere of influence. Zoroastrian sources are very explicit when it comes to the extent of the "Aryanaem Vaeja" or the "Aryan realm"; though it is consensus within scholarly circles that Zoroaster hailed from an area close to the Oxus (Some have claimed that the BMAC archeological culture is a candidate), it was Medieval Zoroastrian thought that he hailed from Âtûrpâtakân/Atropatene/Azerbaijan, which again is adjacent to Armenia. One must not forget that the Armenians had acquired Zoroastrianism somehow, and this of course is echoed throughout history. The words "Hai", "Hayeren" and "Hayrenik", as well as the modern "Armenia" are all cognates to "Arya".

This theory of Armenia being the original homeland of farmers (As opposed to Ukraine or northern Transcaucasia being the source of Indo-European nomadic migrations) is fairly recent, but a valid candidate. None of the theories are necessarily wrong.

[artavazd]

There is no consensus on the matter; so many new findings within the greater Iranian cultural continent are made with so much haste that the issue is getting even fuzzier as we speak; however, these findings are very heavily concentrated in the north-western Iranian frontier, which of course constitutes what once was the commonwealth Armenian sphere of influence. Zoroastrian sources are very explicit when it comes to the extent of the "Aryanaem Vaeja" or the "Aryan realm"; though it is consensus within scholarly circles that Zoroaster hailed from an area close to the Oxus (Some have claimed that the BMAC archeological culture is a candidate), it was Medieval Zoroastrian thought that he hailed from Âtûrpâtakân/Atropatene/Azerbaijan, which again is adjacent to Armenia. One must not forget that the Armenians had acquired Zoroastrianism somehow, and this of course is echoed throughout history. The words "Hai", "Hayeren" and "Hayrenik", as well as the modern "Armenia" are all cognates to "Arya".

This theory of Armenia being the original homeland of farmers (As opposed to Ukraine or northern Transcaucasia being the source of Indo-European nomadic migrations) is fairly recent, but a valid candidate. None of the theories are necessarily wrong.



Thanks for the clear up on the Zoroastrian sources. Well alot of people with connection to Indo-European have words that are connected with "Arya/Aryan". Well the word "Armenia" is not realy a modern word. It is as old as Hai. Both come from Armenian roots. Such as the Germans calling their nation Deutchland, while there is also Germany, and also Alemania. All three words have Germanic roots.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

The PIE populations were never an unified tribe, thus so far most of them ("the nomads", as stated by TPC) were probably pastoralist cultures from the steppes that adopted the language and were, at least to the extent of my knowledge, heavily centered upon the use of chariots (think Indo-Aryans and Hittites, as well the ceremonial remnants in Celto-Italic and Greek civilizations). Thus so far gamegeek's theory and the Armenian hypothesis are not necessarily mutually contradictory, but might state the fact that the extension of the PIE speaking population was perhaps larger than the theorized in the original Kurgan hypothesis.

[Megas Methuselah]

Who was in Europe before the Celts (I mean, IE's)? :thinking:

[artavazd]

The PIE populations were never an unified tribe, thus so far most of them ("the nomads", as stated by TPC) were probably pastoralist cultures from the steppes that adopted the language and were, at least to the extent of my knowledge, heavily centered upon the use of chariots (think Indo-Aryans and Hittites, as well the ceremonial remnants in Celto-Italic and Greek civilizations). Thus so far gamegeek's theory and the Armenian hypothesis are not necessarily mutually contradictory, but might state the fact that the extension of the PIE speaking population was perhaps larger than the theorized in the original Kurgan hypothesis.



You know that seems very plausible. So the ones in the steppes would be of a more pasturalist culture, and the ones in the Caucasus/Armenian highlands would be more agricultural base.

[gamegeek2]

There is probably a Proto-Indo-European ethnonym, related to "Aryana" somehow.

They were probably split, into Nomadic and Pastoral like the EB nomadic factions.

FYI, I follow the Kurgan hypothesis, that Indo-Europeans originated in and north of the Caucasus mountains, and that the Greeks came from the north, not across from Anatolia.

[artavazd]

There is probably a Proto-Indo-European ethnonym, related to "Aryana" somehow.

They were probably split, into Nomadic and Pastoral like the EB nomadic factions.

FYI, I follow the Kurgan hypothesis, that Indo-Europeans originated in and north of the Caucasus mountains, and that the Greeks came from the north, not across from Anatolia.

I dont realy know much on the subject, but I know that several subjects in Greek mythology came from Anatolia/Caucasus. One such example would be cyclopses.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

The maximum extent for the PIE culture would probably NOT include Anatolia. IIRC there was an old Hittite inscription (as described by C. W. Ceram) about a ceremonial rite that placed the "Great Sea" on the East, together with the rising sun. It is also documented that the Hittites came from the Caucasus and expanded onto Central Anatolia afterwards in historical times, displacing and overruling the local non-IE inhabitants (Hattians).

[keravnos]

I dont realy know much on the subject, but I know that several subjects in Greek mythology came from Anatolia/Caucasus. One such example would be cyclopses.

This would be attributed to Pelasgoi, a pre-hellenic people who lived from Epeiros down to the whole of Greece. After Hellenic conquest and assimilation, they deffinitely held on to their myths which then became Hellenic myths, albeit changed. For example, Dodona was from 2000 BCE a site of worship for the great godess of the Earth, GAIA. Then after the Dorians came, the worship shifted to that of Zeus, BUT Zeus in Epeiros was considered married with the local godess, Dione. This Dione must be old Gaia, or Earth-mother or whatever else Pelasgoi (Pre-Greeks rather) of Epeiros would call her.

[artavazd]

This would be attributed to Pelasgoi, a pre-hellenic people who lived from Epeiros down to the whole of Greece. After Hellenic conquest and assimilation, they deffinitely held on to their myths which then became Hellenic myths, albeit changed. For example, Dodona was from 2000 BCE a site of worship for the great godess of the Earth, GAIA. Then after the Dorians came, the worship shifted to that of Zeus, BUT Zeus in Epeiros was considered married with the local godess, Dione. This Dione must be old Gaia, or Earth-mother or whatever else Pelasgoi (Pre-Greeks rather) of Epeiros would call her.

Interesting. Is their a Greek female name similar to Gaia? reason that I ask, is because there is an Armenian female name Gaiane. The name is Latin, but became very popular in Armenia during the 4th century AD. when two Christian Roman women, Gaiane, and Hripsime were martered in Armenia by King Trtad (before he himself became Christian) After Trtad became Christian he had two churches built in honor of Gaiane and Hripsime (Saint Gaiane Church and Saint Hripsime Church.) Both churches are still in use to this day.

[Gatalos de Sauromatae]

Interesting. Is their a Greek female name similar to Gaia? reason that I ask, is because there is an Armenian female name Gaiane. The name is Latin, but became very popular in Armenia during the 4th century AD. when two Christian Roman women, Gaiane, and Hripsime were martered in Armenia by King Trtad (before he himself became Christian) After Trtad became Christian he had two churches built in honor of Gaiane and Hripsime (Saint Gaiane Church and Saint Hripsime Church.) Both churches are still in use to this day.

Wow it's really interesting. Would you post the book or site that I could study more about the ancient deity(before Christianity) in Armenia? Thank in advance. ~:cheers:

[russia almighty]

My biggest question though, who was around in Iran, the Western Steppe, and Europe before the Indo-Europeans?

And what type of migration was this? A full lock stock and barrel one, or "great another rich, eccentric bastard got up with his friends, and decided to kick our neighbor's ass."

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

My biggest question though, who was around in Iran, the Western Steppe, and Europe before the Indo-Europeans?

And what type of migration was this? A full lock stock and barrel one, or "great another rich, eccentric bastard got up with his friends, and decided to kick our neighbor's ass."
WE don't know exactly. Some areas like the old Middle East were very diversified, linguistically speaking, with many completely different groups such as the Hurrians, the Gutians, the Elamites and the Kassites that mostly vanished without leaving any significant trace. In the Steppes particularly there is no conclusive evidence for anything, maybe a pre-Indo-European group inhabiting it since Neolithic times that eventually turned into the original PIE of history.

The circumstances of the migration into Europe are still debated. Most likely it was a mix of both agricultural expansion and nomad invasion, and the original peoples of Europe spoke an unknown language (probably related to Basque, though); the archaeological record actually shows a trace of changes starting in the Bronze Age, but I don't know exactly to what extent they translate into a foreign invasion or merely a change in material culture and customs.

[keravnos]

Interesting. Is their a Greek female name similar to Gaia? reason that I ask, is because there is an Armenian female name Gaiane. The name is Latin, but became very popular in Armenia during the 4th century AD. when two Christian Roman women, Gaiane, and Hripsime were martered in Armenia by King Trtad (before he himself became Christian) After Trtad became Christian he had two churches built in honor of Gaiane and Hripsime (Saint Gaiane Church and Saint Hripsime Church.) Both churches are still in use to this day.

Gaia means earth, and is feminine. Gaiane means literally "from earth" or "of earth". This is also what the greek female name that would come from Gaia be. The male form is "Georgios" or George, which would come from "Gaia"+"ergo" meaning from "Earth" and "work", "He who toils the land". Agriculture is "Georgia" in greek, and farmer is "Georgos". The name George is "Georgios". It is a very interesting story, that of Gaiane, and I think everyone should know that it was Armenia which became the worlds' first Christian Nation, in 306 CE, IIRC. Constantine and The Roman Empire was second.

[artavazd]

Gaia means earth, and is feminine. Gaiane means literally "from earth" or "of earth". This is also what the greek female name that would come from Gaia be. The male form is "Georgios" or George, which would come from "Gaia"+"ergo" meaning from "Earth" and "work", "He who toils the land". Agriculture is "Georgia" in greek, and farmer is "Georgos". The name George is "Georgios". It is a very interesting story, that of Gaiane, and I think everyone should know that it was Armenia which became the worlds' first Christian Nation, in 306 CE, IIRC. Constantine and The Roman Empire was second.

Well the name George is a very common name. What's interesting about this name is, that diffrent people have given the name their own twist. For example we have Giorgi, Jora which is in Russian, Jorje in Spanish, and Gevorg is in Armenian.

Yes Armenia was the first Christian Nation. The official date is 301 CE, but Ive heard scholars debate it going as back as 287CE to just a couple of years before Constantine declared Christianity.

[artavazd]

Wow it's really interesting. Would you post the book or site that I could study more about the ancient deity(before Christianity) in Armenia? Thank in advance. ~:cheers:


http://www.armenian-history.com/Armenian_mythology.htm

there you go. I like this site, because you can read about many Armenian related topics as well.

[russia almighty]

Kassites


Aren't these the guys who invaded Babylon because they were pushed out of Iran possibly by early Indo-Iranian nomads/migrators?

[Gatalos de Sauromatae]

http://www.armenian-history.com/Armenian_mythology.htm

there you go. I like this site, because you can read about many Armenian related topics as well.

Thank and cheer for ya. :medievalcheers: