View Full Version : terror on the rise?
Hooahguy
11-27-2008, 14:21
two stories:
Mubai rocked by terror attacks (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7751160.stm)
and
Penn Station and subway system under terrorist attack threat (http://wcbstv.com/national/nyc.subway.terror.2.874830.html)
looks to me that the terrorists are taking advantage of the worldwide financial instability in an attempt to throw the world off balance....
LittleGrizzly
11-27-2008, 15:16
I blame Obama!!
(and claim a prize for blaming him first!)
I wouldn't say the terrorists are using the crisis in that way, they are probably very happy with the crisis but im sure this plan would have been in the works regardless
looks to me that the terrorists are taking advantage of the worldwide financial instability in an attempt to throw the world off balance....
Hehe. Rhetoric. Can I dress you up in a suit and put on as an "expert" for Fox News? :laugh4:
"They", (although referring to "them" in this way makes them sound like one big related happy family, which terrorists certainly aren't), are just doing what they do. Hoping to instil fear to get what they want. Me thinks they are just pissed off people aren't paying attention to them, like a little child crying because their parents are paying more attention to their new born baby brother than it is them.
LittleGrizzly
11-27-2008, 15:43
From what i heard on the news it isn't actually Al Qaeda just an extremist islamic terrorist group using similar tactics, i wouldn't assume some master world plan at work, more short term kill these white guys and blow up this building...
Alexanderofmacedon
11-27-2008, 16:27
Being half Indian, I will just say....
...I'm not allowed to say what I want on here.:shame:
If I ever meet one of them I swear to god they'll wish they had their 70 already.
rasoforos
11-27-2008, 18:24
Sarcasm On
Well we westerners have spent billions if not trillions and tried our best to make sure that almost every little muslim boy out there dreams of owning their own Osama bin Laden action figure...
...I say it's about time. It would be a shame if all this investment would go to waste.
Sarcasm Off
I think that we havent had a big one for quite some time. Statistically we should have had one. So despite terrorism being on the rise (since young people grow up in a world where the end justifies the means) I think that all in all terrorism is being kept at bay more efficiently than I would have predicted 2-3 years ago.
Being half Indian, I will just say....
...I'm not allowed to say what I want on here.:shame:
If I ever meet one of them I swear to god they'll wish they had their 70 already.
It must be awful. I feel for you.
Seamus Fermanagh
11-27-2008, 21:21
Being half Indian, I will just say....
...I'm not allowed to say what I want on here.:shame:
If I ever meet one of them I swear to god they'll wish they had their 70 already.
I do understand the sentiment. BTDT.
Hosakawa Tito
11-28-2008, 14:37
Here's an interview with Fareed Zakaria, a reknown journalist & editor of Newsweek International who is also a Mumbai native. Mayhem in Mumbai (http://www.newsweek.com/id/171006/page/1)
gaelic cowboy
11-28-2008, 16:29
Sky is reporting that some of the terrorists just got whats coming to them at the Jewish centre thay had overun good riddance to bad rubbish.
Shaka_Khan
11-28-2008, 17:36
From what i heard on the news it isn't actually Al Qaeda just an extremist islamic terrorist group using similar tactics, i wouldn't assume some master world plan at work, more short term kill these white guys and blow up this building...
That seems to have been the intention. Luckily, a lot of the foreigners escaped. But they got much more Indians than foreigners instead. We are witnessing India's 9/11. I feel sad for India.
It's ironic how I see a lot of India tourism commercials on CNN.
Prodigal
11-28-2008, 20:18
"terror attacks" ...many countries have been living with them for a long, long time; now there's a new terror "group" that just wants to kill people anywhere they can, as opposed to targeting a particular country to get their demands met. So is it on the rise.? Yes, but that's only to be expected.
It seems obvious that the reasoning behind the most highly news worthy terror attacks, is that they can be related to a specific religion. This leads to an inevitable distrust/dislike of the perpatrators religious belief; which achieves nothing but needless distrust, that alienates people which in turns helps produce more terrorists.
Anyway, about the financial crisis, I want to make a small point, (please correct me if I'm wrong. On the basis that bank de-regulation was the main cause, (don't think you can blame bankers for being greedy as that's their purpose), surely of blame should be aimed at the people that deregulated them in the first place. Now if I'm not very much mistaken that was the good ol' UK PM Mr.Brown...The unelected, (saviour), in these deeply troubling times.
LittleGrizzly
11-28-2008, 20:27
It seems obvious that the reasoning behind the most highly news worthy terror attacks, is that they can be related to a specific religion. This leads to an inevitable distrust/dislike of the perpatrators religious belief; which achieves nothing but needless distrust, that alienates people which in turns helps produce more terrorists.
Spot on! its one of the main things that keep terrorists going, they work off mistreatment or percieved mistreatment, and by doing these terrorist attacks countrys and individuals will go on to mistreat members of the same religion as the terrorists, this will then validate the terrorists original reasoning and thus the vicious circle (or cycle ?) is born
Anyway, about the financial crisis, I want to make a small point, (please correct me if I'm wrong. On the basis that bank de-regulation was the main cause, (don't think you can blame bankers for being greedy as that's their purpose), surely of blame should be aimed at the people that deregulated them in the first place. Now if I'm not very much mistaken that was the good ol' UK PM Mr.Brown...The unelected, (saviour), in these deeply troubling times.
hmm, firstly im not sure enough on the exact causes of the crisis so ill leave that point, but i assumed to finaincial sector of britian to be pretty much unregulated since thatcher (going out on a limb here, but thatcher was the neo classic economist (with reegan) and one of her things was deregulation) so i would've have assumed that goverments coming after thatcher simply didn't add regulation... really not sure on this point though...
Alexanderofmacedon
11-29-2008, 05:06
From what I've gathered I believe it to be the work of a Pakistani controlled Kashmir terrorist group. About the language thing, I have no idea how to explain Fareed's point...
I just came across the Mumbai attack here (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/11/mumbai_under_attack.html). Was rather surprised I hadn't heard of it before.
What a despicable thing to do. :no:
I haven't read anything else about it but if they really were Islamists, then I guess it shouldn't be too hard to suspect a certain neighboring country that harbours islamists and happens to hate India...
Maybe they wanted to get something back for all that harboring and so they found a target they could both agree on. Of course I'm not 100% sure about that but it sounds just soo likely. :thumbsdown:
Ok, apparently that was rubbish, the rest stands.
Being half Indian, I will just say....
...I'm not allowed to say what I want on here.:shame:
If I ever meet one of them I swear to god they'll wish they had their 70 already.
No doubt. It's one of those things that the best punishment I see would have been to capture the entire lot alive and to throw them in a coliseum full of Indians. That's from where it comes my ambiguity towards the death penalty. Had it happened in my country and against my fellow citizens (And I'm not even speaking about my very own relatives), I would no doubt wish them to die in the most cruel and despicable way possible.
Hosakawa Tito
11-29-2008, 22:03
From what I've gathered I believe it to be the work of a Pakistani controlled Kashmir terrorist group. About the language thing, I have no idea how to explain Fareed's point...
I believe his point about the local Indian witnesses not recognizing the gunmen's language is:
An Indian businessman who says he heard the attackers said he didn't understand the language that the young men were speaking. That means that it wasn't Hindi or Urdu… most Indians would recognize the major languages even if they couldn't speak one of them. But most Indians would be unfamiliar with what's spoken in parts of the Kashmir. That's a source of much of the terrorism. My guess is that ultimately this will turn out to be some outside jihadi groups who might also recruit among disaffected Muslims locally.
This was just one eyewitness account so who can really say for sure at this point. However, what group/groups have the most to gain by fomenting continued friction between Pakistan & India?
Leet Eriksson
11-29-2008, 22:03
This is an act of revenge for the Gujarat Riots apparently.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1862650-2,00.html
its just a recurring circle of violence based on recently invented beliefs in nationalism and not really any sort of religious schism, its funny when everyone realises there was no religious schism in india before, and during ghandi's era.
To elaborate further, this issue started to go downhill after ghandi was assassinated.
Alexanderofmacedon
11-30-2008, 00:55
This is an act of revenge for the Gujarat Riots apparently.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1862650-2,00.html
its just a recurring circle of violence based on recently invented beliefs in nationalism and not really any sort of religious schism, its funny when everyone realises there was no religious schism in india before, and during ghandi's era.
To elaborate further, this issue started to go downhill after ghandi was assassinated.
It is based on religion. The conflict is over Kashmir which is an area that creates religious conflict for so many reasons...
Hosakawa Tito:
Yeah I got it, but I have difficulty taking that into consideration. When people are yelling in different languages in that part of the world where there are so many completely different languages let alone different dialects, its very difficult to get a good reading I think.
Merely my opinion though. I'm sure they heard what they heard, it just has a possibility of not being completely correct. It probably is correct though, I just don't know.
Hooahguy
11-30-2008, 01:43
Sky is reporting that some of the terrorists just got whats coming to them at the Jewish centre thay had overun good riddance to bad rubbish.
sadly, the chabad(jewish outreach) rabbi and his wife (who im related to) have been killed.....
Alexanderofmacedon
11-30-2008, 02:59
sadly, the chabad(jewish outreach) rabbi and his wife (who im related to) have been killed.....
Sorry for your loss.
sadly, the chabad(jewish outreach) rabbi and his wife (who im related to) have been killed.....
Then you have my deepest and sincerest condolences.
seireikhaan
11-30-2008, 04:57
:sad:
Horrible barbarism. My deepest wishes and prayers for those affected.
This is hardly enough to base a conclusion that terrorism is on the rise. Attacks in India have been going one for years now, the only difference being this was well co-ordinated and no major group has claimed responsibility. My condolences to the relatives of the deceased.
Hosakawa Tito
11-30-2008, 16:33
The lone surviving attacker that was captured is Pakistani. Pakistan's government may not be directly involved, but rogue elements within that government probably are. The attackers definitely had military training & combat experience and knew enough to infiltrate by sea instead of trying to get weapons & explosives in by overland checkpoints.
Leet Eriksson
11-30-2008, 20:51
It is based on religion. The conflict is over Kashmir which is an area that creates religious conflict for so many reasons...
If you bother reading, you'll know why these conflicts are recent and artificial, and has nothing to do with religion.
The indian government is horribly incompetent and has mishandled many issues in the past, i'm not very surprised after discovering that this was bound to happen. Just look at whats happening to the christians http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/2362
Alexanderofmacedon
11-30-2008, 23:00
If you bother reading, you'll know why these conflicts are recent and artificial, and has nothing to do with religion.
The indian government is horribly incompetent and has mishandled many issues in the past, i'm not very surprised after discovering that this was bound to happen. Just look at whats happening to the christians http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/2362
I don't know what planet you're on. The beginning of the fight for Kashmir started when Muslim rulers began to become intolerant towards the Hindu religion and they began destroying Hindu shrines and killing them. Many committed suicide to prevent themselves from having to change religion or leave their country.
When the British left they helped decide whether Kashmir would go to India or Pakistan. The ruler at the time chose India after Pakistani irregulars attempted to intimidate the ruler into joining Pakistan.
The reason for this is that all the Hindu gods and the origins of Hinduism are from the Himalaya and Kashmir region. We've already given them half of the land and now they want to talk away the holy places that are ours. And THAT is why we fight. THAT is why the BJP is gaining support and has already (after the terrorist attacks this weekend) started to turn more support in five Indian states.
Every government has their faults, and I will not deny what the rabble did killing innocent Christians was not good. In all honesty I don't even think the Christians had anything to do with the attack (probably Maoist rebels).
When the British left they helped decide whether Kashmir would go to India or Pakistan. The ruler at the time chose India after Pakistani irregulars attempted to intimidate the ruler into joining Pakistan.
From Wikipedia:
Pakistan's claims to the disputed region are based on the rejection of Indian claims to Kashmir, namely the Instrument of Accession. Pakistan insists that the Maharaja was not a popular leader, and was regarded as a tyrant by most Kashmiris. Pakistan also accuses India of hypocrisy, as it refused to recognize the accession of Junagadh to Pakistan and Hyderabad's independence, on the grounds that those two states had Hindu majorities (in fact, India occupied and forcibly integrated those two territories). Furthermore, as he had fled Kashmir due to Pakistani invasion, Pakistan asserts that the Maharaja held no authority in determining Kashmir's future. Additionally, Pakistan argues that even if the Maharaja had any authority in determining the plight of Kashmir, he signed the Instrument of Accession under duress, thus invalidating the legitimacy of his actions.
The reason for this is that all the Hindu gods and the origins of Hinduism are from the Himalaya and Kashmir region. We've already given them half of the land and now they want to talk away the holy places that are ours. And THAT is why we fight
Crusading? Huh?
How about we let the people decide where they wish their nation to go?
CountArach
11-30-2008, 23:46
sadly, the chabad(jewish outreach) rabbi and his wife (who im related to) have been killed.....
Wow, I'm so sorry to hear that.
My deepest condolences.
Leet Eriksson
12-01-2008, 00:01
I don't know what planet you're on. The beginning of the fight for Kashmir started when Muslim rulers began to become intolerant towards the Hindu religion and they began destroying Hindu shrines and killing them. Many committed suicide to prevent themselves from having to change religion or leave their country.
When the British left they helped decide whether Kashmir would go to India or Pakistan. The ruler at the time chose India after Pakistani irregulars attempted to intimidate the ruler into joining Pakistan.
The reason for this is that all the Hindu gods and the origins of Hinduism are from the Himalaya and Kashmir region. We've already given them half of the land and now they want to talk away the holy places that are ours. And THAT is why we fight. THAT is why the BJP is gaining support and has already (after the terrorist attacks this weekend) started to turn more support in five Indian states.
Every government has their faults, and I will not deny what the rabble did killing innocent Christians was not good. In all honesty I don't even think the Christians had anything to do with the attack (probably Maoist rebels).
Historical precedents are not a legitimate reason to go claiming lands anymore, if thats the case the entire world would be in trouble.
Also you certainly represent no one, so stop the we and them act. Oh and the BJP are a fascist party that believes in the Hindutva a fascist ideology thats hellbent on killing everyone and force converting them to hinduism, they aren't really any different from the islamic terrorists really.
And the catch all "dey alqueda terrists!!!111" is just a lazy attempt at ignoring the real problem of india, and trying to solve it by ignoring it entirely. This will keep the bloody circle of violence alive and bury ghandis legacy even further into the ground.
THAT is why the BJP is gaining support and has already (after the terrorist attacks this weekend) started to turn more support in five Indian states.
Probably because they're striking fear into the hearts and minds of the average Indian. I' having to agree with Fizzil, it seems the BNP (Err...sorry, BJP) is nothing more than a right winged nationalistic party.
Alexanderofmacedon
12-01-2008, 01:27
First off: The BJP takes extreme measures and is often NOT scrupulous dealing with Islamic groups, but saying they are trying to convert everyone is idiotic considering conversion to Hinduism isn't really "allowed".
Second off: I'm not saying anything is right or wrong in terms of the Kashmir conflict. I have my personal opinions (and if they showed it was not my intention). My intention was to show it is still a religious conflict despite what you may think.
Now begins putting words in my mouth... I never once said that all Muslims were terrorists or anything remotely similar. In fact there are around 200 million Muslims that live in India, and the majority of them live quite peacefully. Hell, during the terrorist attacks this past weekend we had Hindu, Sikh, and Islamic troops combat terrorists. They are no less Indians than Hindus.
Leet: Your exaggerations about the BJP aren't going to get you anywhere. First of all, it's led by Rajnath Singh, who is a Sikh. And yes, the BJP finally protects the rights of Hindus. Muslims have been destroying Hindu temples for hundreds of years (and that gives no right to destroy theirs) and WE deserve to have OUR religion respected. That isn't to say their tactics are right, though...
EDIT: http://www.bjp.org/philo.htm - Read it. "The BJP has also invited Muslims to be a part of this new society and work with the Hindus, Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs for a better India"
"We must look after the Muslims and treat them as part of us"
Leet Eriksson
12-01-2008, 02:27
You might as well tell me to go fact finding about hizbullah on their own website.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811u/mumbai
Heavily armed, hooded gunmen have killed more than 100 people and wounded more than 300 in Mumbai in coordinated attacks against two five-star hotels, the city’s largest train station, a movie theater, a hospital, and a Jewish center. Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh said in a televised address that the attackers had “external linkages,” an indication that Pakistan and perhaps al-Qaeda, too, would be blamed for the attack. It is clearly possible that the terror rampage had its origins outside India, aimed as they were at international rather than Hindu targets. But in a least one sense it doesn’t matter. For the attacks will aggravate a growing fault line between Hindus and Muslims within India itself.
India is home to 154 million Muslims, the third largest Muslim population in the world after Indonesia and Pakistan. Tolerable inter-communal relations are the sine qua non of Indian stability and ascendancy. India has more to lose from extremist Islam than arguably any other country in the world. The Mumbai terrorists announced themselves as the Deccan Mujahideen. The Deccan is a rugged plateau region in south-central India that Aurangzeb, the fierce Sunni emperor of the Mughals (India’s most historically significant Muslim dynasty) could never subdue and in fact died trying in 1707. The Islamic Mughals vanquished all of northern India, Pakistan, and a good part of Afghanistan, but they could never consolidate the Deccan against the Hindu Maratha warriors. This Mughal history has taken on heightened symbolism in India in recent years precisely as a result of globalization and the expansion of electronic communications and education, all of which have sharpened the country’s religious divide.
Let me explain.
In the early Cold War decades, India’s ruling Congress Party, the party of independence, sought to unite both Hindus and Muslims under the umbrella of a shared community and new nation-state. It worked, more or less, until the 1970s, when Prime Minister Indira Gandhi enacted dictatorial emergency decrees that erased much of the romantic sheen from Congress’s image. New imagined communities then started to form. In the 1980s, and particularly in the 1990s, with the opening up of the Indian economy to the outside world, Indians, especially the new Hindu middle class, began a search for roots to anchor them inside an insipid world civilization that they were joining as a result of their new economic status. This enhanced status, by the way, gave them new insecurities, as they suddenly had wealth to protect.
Consequently, we had the rise of the Hindu nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (Indian People’s Party, or BJP). The BJP is one of several Hindu nationalist organizations that promotes a revisionist view of Indian history, in which the Mughals and other Muslim dynasties of the medieval and early modern era (which helped create India’s dazzlingly syncretic civilization - but who also brought terrible depredations upon the Hindus) are considered interlopers in what should have remained a purely Hindu civilization and story-line. Mass communications have helped Hindus in this historical journey, enabling the creation of a standardized and ideologized Hinduism out of many local variants. It goes without saying that a similar process simultaneously occurred within parts of the Indian Muslim community, who joined a world Muslim civilization that competed with Indian nationalism for their loyalty. Bottom line: this is not an ancient historical divide so much as a recreated modern one.
The divide exploded in full force in February and March 2002 in the northwestern province of Gujarat. Following the massacre of 58 Hindus on a train, Muslim areas of Gujarat, and particularly neighborhoods in its largest cities, were besieged by Hindu mobs: hundreds of Muslim women were raped, more than a thousand were killed, and 200,000 were made homeless. The Hindu nationalist BJP government in Gujarat was implicated in the killings, and because there was never an official apology for what happened, the atrocities have lived on in infamy, becoming a symbol for both groups in India.
With this background – and I have provided only the most rudimentary chronicle – the immediate result of the Mumbai terror attacks will be a further hardening of inter-communal relations within India. The latest attacks will also increase the likelihood that in national elections slated for early 2009, the result will be a BJP-led government, as Hindus, who comprise the overwhelming majority of Indian voters, take on another layer of insecurity.
Internationally, this event will further aggravate Indian-Pakistani relations, making it harder for the incoming Obama Administration to effect a rapprochement between the two countries, necessary for progress in Afghanistan, where the two subcontinental states are engaged in a proxy struggle that goes on behind the immediate conflict between the United States and al-Qaeda.
But the real story is India itself, whose undeniable rise as a major world power is being threatened by these civilizational tensions.
I have just spent a month reporting in Gujarat on Hindu-Muslim relations, and will have much more to say on the subject in the future.
Bolded relevant lines cause thats what it really is all about, socio-political problems based on artificial and bunk historical beliefs and ideologies, you really can't get worse than this as far as the incompetence of the indian government.
Weren't they involved the the destruction of a Mosque a while back?
Leet Eriksson
12-01-2008, 03:21
Weren't they involved the the destruction of a Mosque a while back?
No, it was done by a mob of hindu nationalists. Though this is what sparked the divide between hindus and muslims generally.
EDIT: The bjp congratulated them later though.
Alexanderofmacedon
12-01-2008, 03:30
Weren't they involved the the destruction of a Mosque a while back?
Yeah it was in 1992. Caused some nasty riots. Sad thing, and stupid to do.
Yeah it was in 1992. Caused some nasty riots. Sad thing, and stupid to do.
And they're talking about acceptance :laugh4:
Alexanderofmacedon
12-01-2008, 03:59
And they're talking about acceptance :laugh4:
Most parties are like that. Most politicians, actually. Some systems that's how you get things done though. A shame really.
Most parties are like that. Most politicians, actually. Some systems that's how you get things done though. A shame really.
What?
Oh, and get this, after tearing down a Muslim Mosque, they built the Ram Janmabhoomi temple :laugh4: it just keeps getting better.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
12-01-2008, 17:28
Ignoring the fact that this happened what, almost seventeen years ago?
Personally I am still angry because they made a mosque out of the Hagia Sophia.
Personally I am still angry because they made a mosque out of the Hagia Sophia.
Let's assault a city and make them pay! :dizzy2:
Hooahguy
12-01-2008, 21:11
someone sent me this article:
A Day of Mourning
Naomi Ragen
After days of prayer and fear among Jews and good people everywhere, the
horrible reality of the Islamic terrorist rampage in Mumbai was revealed in all its obscene and mindless savagery when members of Zaka entered the Chabad compound. As an eyewitness told YNET, the sight was unbearable even to the practiced eyes of those whose job it is to deal with the aftermath of murderous terror attacks:|"The place was totally destroyed. Live grenades were all over the floor. Torah scrolls and holy books were scattered on the floor, covered with blood." The bodies of the Chabad rabbi and the kashrut supervisor were found in one room, along with two other men whose hands had been tied with telephone wire. The body of the Rabbi's young wife Rivkie was found covered in a tallit. It is believed she was killed before her young husband's eyes and he wrapped her in his tallit. A grandmother from Israel, and a Jewish woman tourist from Mexico were also identified. For photos you will not see in the New York Times of the blood-soaked floor of the house of prayer and hospitality, courtesy of the "religion of peace" whose riots kill hundreds when a Koran is desecrated, please go to:
http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3630586,00.html
Police in Mumbai report that they found enough ammunition to blow up both
hotels and to kill thousands, which according to a terrorist captured alive,
was the intention. This carefully planned attack, which had the Chabad
House at its center, was orchestrated from Pakistan. Vilasrao Deshmukh, the
Chief Minister of Maharashtra state, of which Bombay is the capital, was
quoted yesterday as saying there were two "British-born Pakistanis" among
the terrorists, reports he later denied. A British Pakistani was involved
in a terror attack in Israel at Mike's Place not long ago. The Mail Online
reports "a banned Islamic terrorist group funded with cash raised in British
mosques is believed to be behind the Mumbai attacks." The Mail reports: "The
only terrorist captured alive after the Mumbai massacre has given police the
first full account of the extraordinary events that led to it - revealing he
was ordered to 'kill until the last breath' Azam Amir Kasab, 21, from
Pakistan, said the attacks were meticulously planned six months ago and were intended to kill 5,000 people. He revealed that the ten terrorists, who were highly trained in marine assault and crept into the city by boat, had
planned to blow up the Taj Mahal Palace hotel after first executing British
and American tourists and then taking hostages."
These descriptions brought back flashbacks to me of the Park Hotel which was
rocked by a murderous explosion by Hamas terrorists right before the Seder
began. Perhaps it is impossible for the average human being to understand
the depth of evil represented by Muslim extremists and their supporters if
you didn't witness such a thing. I deal with this in my book, The Covenant.
But I feel that I am whistling in the wind. People who have not seen this
with their own eyes just refuse to understand that these are not people with
grievances, people who can be reasoned with. These people are Nazis. Only
if you think you can speak to a Nazi and convince him to not wish to kill
Jews, can such a stand make sense.
No one should negotiate with any person, government official, religious
leader, or member of any group that does not condemn and despise and
excoriate these terrorists. No respect should be given to any religion, or
member of that religion, or religious leader who does not despise and
condemn these acts. When one views the bloody floor of Chabad House, one
sees the bloodied face of civilization. Those who are not prepared to
exterminate this evil, and those who are involved in it, are part of it.
Eyewitness Jonathan Ehrlich, a businessman who narrowly escaped death in
Mumbai,
sent out an e-mail of his experiences. In conclusion, he writes this:
The people who did this have no souls. They have no hearts. They are
simply
the living manifestation of evil and they only know killing and murder.
We - all of us - need to understand that. Their target tonight was
first and foremost Americans. Why? Because they fear everything that
America stands for. They fear hope and change and freedom and peace.
Let's make no mistake; they would have shot me and my children point
blank tonight without a moment's hesitation. Most of us sorta know
that but sometimes we equivocate. We can't equivocate. Not ever.
i suppose this accurately represents what most jews are feeling right now....
Seamus Fermanagh
12-01-2008, 21:22
Targeting the Chabad center, to my mind, undercuts any "Freedom for Kashmir" component to the motivations for this sick episode. I think it is pretty clear that, whatever you believe regarding the Israel/Palestine dispute, the Jewish center in Mumbai cannot have figured prominently in the dispute over Kashmir. That it was targeted does not speak well of this group of Islamists.
LeftEyeNine
12-02-2008, 02:59
Personally I am still angry because they made a mosque out of the Hagia Sophia.
It's still beautiful and in solid condition, Frag. Chillax. :gorgeous:
Personally I don't give a single **** (I have millions when some debate turns such corners) to what Christians did to Umayyad buildings although they were mostly razed down.
We should learn to get along with what we still have while destruction is so easy to commit.
Ur dearest,
XXX,
LEN
Devastatin Dave
12-02-2008, 15:57
Did someone draw a mean cartoon of Muhammed again? Jeez, these people are something else...
Did someone draw a mean cartoon of Muhammed again? Jeez, these people are something else...
No, they're a lot like you actually.
It's still beautiful and in solid condition, Frag. Chillax. :gorgeous:
Personally I don't give a single **** (I have millions when some debate turns such corners) to what Christians did to Umayyad buildings although they were mostly razed down.
We should learn to get along with what we still have while destruction is so easy to commit.
Ur dearest,
XXX,
LEN
I was kinda joking mia muca ~:flirt:
forever yours,
Frag
Devastatin Dave
12-03-2008, 15:04
No, they're a lot like you actually.
How's that? I've yet to kill anyone in the name of a god. PLease elaberate so I can understand your insulting insinuation...
How's that? I've yet to kill anyone in the name of a god. PLease elaberate so I can understand your insulting insinuation...
Well, first off we're all humans, your comment about them being something else sounded rather insulting to me (not like I was insulted myself).
And then they seem rather intolerant and do not discriminate between guilty or not, they just fight against "the others" in general, which is why they attack women and children etc., something you seem to show as well. Didn't want to say you're a terrorist, apart from the above I think you're a nice guy while they are murderers.
Devastatin Dave
12-04-2008, 21:40
Well, first off we're all humans, your comment about them being something else sounded rather insulting to me (not like I was insulted myself).
And then they seem rather intolerant and do not discriminate between guilty or not, they just fight against "the others" in general, which is why they attack women and children etc., something you seem to show as well. Didn't want to say you're a terrorist, apart from the above I think you're a nice guy while they are murderers.
With all due respect, I have nothing in common with THESE PEOPLE. THESE PEOPLE killed hundreds of innocent people all in the name of a religion. They targeted certain groups of people. So that is why I'm having a hard time understanding what was so insulting by me saying "Jeez, these people are something else..." that it would prompt you into morally equaling me to a bunch of murdering bastards. I've known you for years Husar and you are better than this. I may not be but I know you are. Don't dishonor yourself my friend by defending the guilty with blood on their hands.
But anyway, this is just one more reason why we will witness our own extinction or enslavement by the Islamic "religion" if we continue to bury our heads in the sand of political correctness and not call the guilty what they really are. The goal of true Islam is not to live side by side as equals with other faiths or complete unbelievers. The silent MAJORITY of muslims that are peaceful cannot hold back the MINORITY of violent ones that are doing the killing. The world is a violent place where the strong and violent rule. Peace cannot win this fight. You cannot win a fight peacefully against these people.
Louis VI the Fat
12-04-2008, 22:46
But anyway, this is just one more reason why we will witness our own extinction or enslavement by the Islamic "religion" if we continue to bury our heads in the sand of political correctness and not call the guilty what they really are. The goal of true Islam is not to live side by side as equals with other faiths or complete unbelievers. The silent MAJORITY of muslims that are peaceful cannot hold back the MINORITY of violent ones that are doing the killing. The world is a violent place where the strong and violent rule. Peace cannot win this fight. You cannot win a fight peacefully against these people.
Which calls for the classic:
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v365/bdfaith/BeheadThoseW180.jpg
Strike For The South
12-04-2008, 23:46
I agree with Fasial.
Religion is merely a pawn in the greater scheme if things. Sure the lowest rungs truly believe but the men who plan and back these attacks eat bacon on the weekends. They want more power and they see an outlet in a rundown populace with nowhere else to turn.
I mean look at the Turks. There're muslims and they are relatively docile and literate.
Don't dishonor yourself my friend by defending the guilty with blood on their hands.
Well, you cannot complain about religion and honor killings and then tell me to keep my honor. ~;)
Honor for me is an abstract concept that is, just like religion, often used to justify killing.
Apart from that I was in no way defending them, I said before what they did was disgusting, but I do not think condemning all muslims as you do is the way to go or else we could just say all christians are evil crusaders who convert by the sword, I know that's an old story, but christianity is also an older religion.
I think we should judge everyone by their own deeds and not as a group, there are black sheep everywhere and GWB, a "christian" also had a lot of people killed based on lies, but I do not condemn all US Americans for what this guy did, the islamic terrorists do, and that's exactly where they have similarities to certain western people who want to turn the whole middle east into a parking lot for the deeds of a few terrorists. :thumbsdown:
The goal of true Islam is not to live side by side as equals with other faiths or complete unbelievers. The silent MAJORITY of muslims that are peaceful cannot hold back the MINORITY of violent ones that are doing the killing. The world is a violent place where the strong and violent rule. Peace cannot win this fight. You cannot win a fight peacefully against these people.
Helps if we call it radical islam. For the rest, yep. It's like the Hydra you have to cut off all it's heads.
edit http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-36880720081205
This makes no sense I call bull.
I agree with Fasial.
Religion is merely a pawn in the greater scheme if things. Sure the lowest rungs truly believe but the men who plan and back these attacks eat bacon on the weekends. They want more power and they see an outlet in a rundown populace with nowhere else to turn.
I mean look at the Turks. There're muslims and they are relatively docile and literate.
Curiously, I was trying to figure out what sets Turkish Muslims from the rest of other muslims. And while the concept of "Civilized" is an ambiguous one, it's really the only answer I could find. As much as "racist" or "superioristic" this may seem, the Turks are much more "Europeanized" than other Muslims. They are much more culturally similar to us than other muslims, and have the same understanding of European or Western values than most Europeans. (I'm talking in terms of Nation) That's why you look at the attempts from the Turkish party in power of bringing back some Religious Muslim laws, and the entire people rose in protests against the moves, since they understand the basic concept behind laicité, or Secularism. Whereas, in Lebanon, Iraq and elsewhere, you see a blatant polarisation of the country into different religions, and the people doesn't raise as a whole to protest.
The problem Dave with your argument, is that you don't know which is the goal of True Islam. What is "True" Islam for you? Is it what you see in the televisions and in the news? What is True Islam for the extremists? What is True Islam for me? What about for the millions of peaceful Muslims who live in the Western World? What about the True Islam for those Muslims who fight and die trying to stamp out extremist Muslims? Is your opinion of True Islam valid for them too? The bottom line is that there is a different "True" Islam for each person, and your opinion of True Islam isn't necessarily the most valid one
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