Units: speculation, rumor, slander and silliness

[Sheogorath]

Alright, since it was brought up in the factions topic, I think it's worth extending the discussion here.

So, we've already got a few units confirmed. A howitzer, grenadiers, and a couple of ships. Not a whole lot to work with. This topic is for speculation about the units factions will possess, their abilities and your hopes involving those units.

As I stated in the other topic, I think the basic European unit structure will be something like this:
(Please note that the below in no way reflects anything historic at all. This is a prediction of what CA will put into the game based on past experience, not what I think a faction should have based on history)

Militia units
Line infantry
Light infantry
Elite light infantry
Grenadiers
Some sort of elite grenadier
Guard units

For cavalry:
Militia cavalry
Hussars
Lancers
Dragoons
Cuirassiers

And for ships
Galleys
Sloops
Frigates
Ships of the Line (Of various classes)

Of course, my HOPE is that factions will have various specific units. Pavlovsk grenadiers for the Russians, Highlanders for the Brits, Cacodores for the Spanish/Portuguese. Essentially something similar to Napoleonic: Total War's lineup.
And, of course, I imagine that the non-European factions will be something like this:

Militia unit (probably melee only)
Archer unit
Line infantry
Light infantry
Elite unit (maybe melee only)

The Asian Indians will probably get some kind of heavy cavalry and rockets, while the American Indians get elite light cavalry and some kind of super skirmishers. And maybe head (scalp?) hurlers.


I'm also hoping that the various factions will have tangible differences between even their basic units. Again, like in NTW. For example, the British basic line infantry were better at shooting than any other line infantry, but were a bit weaker in melee. The Russians, while terrible shots, had the strongest melee units in the game, and a nice morale bonus to represent that classic Russian stubbornness (I did some testing and, in a melee battle, Russian Lieb Guards can route French Old Guard :P). The Spanish had low morale, but a high chance of recovering from a route (I saw a quote somewhere, I believe from a French general, which was something along the lines of 'every time we beat the Spanish on the field, the survivors would run off into the hills. The next day we'd find them assembling for a fight in front of us, ready to repeat the process.') The French, being annoyingly unbalanced in my opinion, seem to be a bit above average in all categories.

Of course, ETW will apparently be set rather before NTW's time period. So perhaps we can hope to see some more powerful Spanish units, from Spain's glory period (even if it was a little tarnished at this point). I do find myself hoping that they don't use the musket sounds from MTW2, though. It just wasn't very satisfying, I think, and they never really got a good volley effect.

The same with naval units. The British should have a nice advantage in terms of the price of their ships, although at the cost of quality, while the French should build excellent ships, at a high cost.

But enough of my thoughts, what about yours?

[Fisherking]

I think that if European powers are facing Elite Native American Cavalry then the game is unbalanced. Maybe just in Texas or something but I hope the eastern tribes are true stumbling blocks to westward expansion…which they were. (hold them for later expansions) Make the Eastern Tribes a serious power in the basic game. Rogers’ Rangers are a special unit…they were only about as good as the tribes and only came into being because most of the Iroquois sat out most of the war.

Maybe the Brits need a special Indian Agent unit…lol


If there is no ships able to bombard forts then I guess we won’t see bomb ketches…or if we do, what good are they.

Only speculating but from the special units announced we may see the French Irish Brigade, maybe the Scots and who knows if the Brits get their German Legion.

I am curious if the Swedish recruiting/manning system will be portrayed in the game.

I don’t see this as just another game. For me it is going to be either the best thing since sliced bread or a huge disappointment at what could have been.

Though they sure aren’t flooding us with information are they?

[Polemists]

Though they sure aren’t flooding us with information are they?


They rarely do, whether your talking MTW2, MTW2 Kingdoms, RTW or RTW BI, none have really been a flood of information. It's never been like MMO or major production game (Mario, Halo, etc) where you are going to get weekly screenshots or videos or something. Even come Janurary I would be shocked if you got anything more then a screenshot every 15 days or so, and maybe one video. They probably won't even announce when the Demo is coming out, for fear that they will miss the date and then be in trouble.

That said, sometime soonish we are supposed to have another dev diary, but when that is, is anyone's guess.




In unit news, I didn't see Elephants mentioned :P

You know they are included.

Last time we had canon elephants, so maybe this time Rocket Elephants.

[Sheogorath]

I was mostly speculating about the 'standard' lineup. You know, like MTW2's 'Town Militia, Spear Militia, Sergeant, Armored Sergeant' lineup.

And, of course, I'm hoping that we'll get some nice splash effects from Elephants too. And a good 'thunk' sound effect when you hit one in the side with a 12lber. :laugh4:

[The_Doctor]

I know this pedantic of me, but dragoons are mounted infantry not cavalry.:yes:

[Polemists]

but dragoons are mounted infantry not cavalry


Brain hurt,someone please dumb this saying down for me :laugh4:

[everyone]

he probably means that dragoons are supposed to fight as infantry and are just mounted for the purpose of mobility.

[Oleander Ardens]

Napoleon TW was surly a great mod. Personally I hope to have diverse units.

Austria (http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Austrian_infantry.htm)

Tyrolean Jaeger - rifle
(Tyrolean) Jaeger - short muskets, for fast shooting at short ranges
Tyrolean Sharpshooter - unit with the Girandoni air rifle (high rate of fire & accuracy, short range)
(Pandurs) Grenzer - musket, can shoot well and skirmish
Hungarian line infantry - musket, good melee, subpar shooting
Hungarian Grenadiers - musket, very good melee, high morale
("German") Austrian line infantry - musket
("German") Austrian Grenadiers - musket, good melee, good shooting, high discipline
("German" Landwehr) Milita - musket

Cavalry (http://napoleonistyka.atspace.com/Austrian_cavalry.htm), taken togheter, perhaps Europeans finest.

("German", Czech) Cuirassiers:
("German", Czech) Chevaulegeres:
(Czech, Italians, "German") Dragoons:
Hungarian Hussars:
(Polish, Ukrainian) Uhlans:


...

and so on. Would be great fun.

[The_Doctor]

he probably means that dragoons are supposed to fight as infantry and are just mounted for the purpose of mobility.

Yes, and dragoons are organised into companies and regiments like infantry, whereas cavalry have troops and squadrons.

[Polemists]

but really really, let's get aside from all this jargon and get down to the core of matter



Who has the biggest cannon in this timeframe? :2thumbsup:

[Nelson]

I know this pedantic of me, but dragoons are mounted infantry not cavalry.:yes:

When first introduced in the 17th century, yes. But like grenadiers, their original function became obsolete. By Frederick the Great's time dragoons were almost exclusively employed as cavalry and invariably referred to as such.

It makes sense. There was plenty of infantry around. Dismounting the dragoons would have wasted them.

[Sol Invictus]

Besides, who wants to fight as a poor bloody infantryman when you have a valiant steed at your call. Much more glorious to take part in a Cavalry charge than to slug it out with a carbine.:charge:

[Robespierre]

but really really, let's get aside from all this jargon and get down to the core of matter



Who has the biggest cannon in this timeframe? :2thumbsup:

Whosoever had the most impressive foundry I expect. Do you think its only size that counts?

[Sheogorath]

I believe the dragoons DID take on a 'mounted infantry' role once again after the Napoleonic Wars, however, when rifles started to become common. The need for cavalry grew less, and people started seeing the advantage of highly mobile infantry again.

Polemists, the Russians :P
The Tsar Cannon has, according to Wikipedia, a calibur of ~900cm, about 35 inches, and was the largest gun in the world from the time it was built until the World War II. Apparently it was designed to fire grapeshot down Moscow's main street in the event of an attack on the city, and was never used.

In terms of the largest cannons that were actually used (in this period), I believe that award goes to the Turks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Turkish_Bombard


n 1464, Mehmed II commissioned 42 of the monster cannons to guard the Dardanelles. Each weighed 18 tonnes with a 750 mm (30 in) bore.

These huge cannons were still present for duty more than 300 years later in 1807, when a Royal Navy force appeared and commenced the Dardanelles Operation. Turkish forces loaded the ancient relics with propellant and projectiles, then fired them at the British ships. Instead of exploding, the cannon worked just as well as when they were new. Two shots on a single British ship killed 60 sailors.[3]

In 1867, Abdülâziz gave Queen Victoria one of these impressive and historic weapons. It became a part of the Royal Armouries collection and was displayed to visitors at the Tower of London[4] and was then moved to Fort Nelson at Portsmouth.

I can't see something like that being effective in battle though...it'd take all day to reload. And it looks like their accuracy wasn't so great.

But hey, they had them in MTW2, why not do it again? :P

Anyway...in terms of actual EFFECTIVE cannons, I'd be willing to bet on the Russians. They favored their artillery the way other European nations tended to favor cavalry.

[Oleander Ardens]

There is little doubt that overall the most effective artillery was French. Brilliant organization, effective standartization, highly trained men and officers due to tradition and much love by Napoleon. Of course part of the great impact it made in the large battles is also due to the tactical genius of Napoleon, which usually deployed it where it's strenghts could shine.

Still the Russian Artillery was quite surly the best of the Allies, with a huge number of guns and very brave and well trained men serving them.

[Megas Methuselah]

I am curious if the Swedish recruiting/manning system will be portrayed in the game.

Yeah, it should be interesting to see how CA spins this out. :juggle2:

[Sheogorath]

There is little doubt that overall the most effective artillery was French. Brilliant organization, effective standartization, highly trained men and officers due to tradition and much love by Napoleon. Of course part of the great impact it made in the large battles is also due to the tactical genius of Napoleon, which usually deployed it where it's strenghts could shine.

Still the Russian Artillery was quite surly the best of the Allies, with a huge number of guns and very brave and well trained men serving them.

The debate of Russian vs. French artillery is an endless one. It's all based on what sources you think are more reliable, since nobody from the period agrees on that subject.

But the question was who had the largest cannon. It's simply my guess that the Russians would be the ones to deploy the largest cannons in battle. It's just a Russian thing :P

[Mailman653]

Generally speaking though, the time frame will have Royal French soldiers, not Republican French soldiers (unless there is a successful revolution). Therefore, a more accurate debate would be artillery in the Royal French army vs the Russian's.

I don't know much about this subject to be honest but military doctrine between the French army before Napoleon and after in regards to artillery deployment could be quite different.

But going back on topic, it would be funny if you can recruit elephants in one part of the world, put them on a boat and send them somewhere else. Imagine an elephant going wild in the streets of Vienna.

[Sheogorath]

Hmmmm...
*Formulating plans to conquer India as Spain and march across the Alps with imported elephants.*

[Megas Methuselah]

@Sheo: I'd much rather spark and lead a successful French revolution and rule as First Consul!! :crowngrin:

[Sheogorath]

@Sheo: I'd much rather spark and lead a successful French revolution and rule as First Consul!! :crowngrin:

Why not do both? Who says you can't have the French Revolution in Spain?

[Oleander Ardens]

The debate of Russian vs. French artillery is an endless one. It's all based on what sources you think are more reliable, since nobody from the period agrees on that subject.

But the question was who had the largest cannon. It's simply my guess that the Russians would be the ones to deploy the largest cannons in battle. It's just a Russian thing :P

It is a large discussion, although there are quite a few more "neutral" sources (allied countries) which suport the case for the French artillery. Still I hope that I have to fear every artillery piece of a major power, and the Russians had plenty of them :smash:


Generally speaking though, the time frame will have Royal French soldiers, not Republican French soldiers (unless there is a successful revolution). Therefore, a more accurate debate would be artillery in the Royal French army vs the Russian's.

I don't know much about this subject to be honest but military doctrine between the French army before Napoleon and after in regards to artillery deployment could be quite different.

True. But over such a long period comparisions are even more difficult.

BTW: Also the Western Nations had around 1700 better industrial metallurgy than the rest and should get bonuses for their guns and muskets.

[Megas Methuselah]

Why not do both? Who says you can't have the French Revolution in Spain?

:elephant: Life is good! Yay!

[Sheogorath]

It is a large discussion, although there are quite a few more "neutral" sources (allied countries) which suport the case for the French artillery. Still I hope that I have to fear every artillery piece of a major power, and the Russians had plenty of them :smash:

Indeed. One thing that is not debated is that the Russians had MORE guns than anybody else :P



True. But over such a long period comparisions are even more difficult.

BTW: Also the Western Nations had around 1700 better industrial metallurgy than the rest and should get bonuses for their guns and muskets.

I, personally, am hoping that (once again with the NTW comparisons) each faction will have its own built in advantages and disadvantages. As I mentioned in the OP, the British are good at shooting, but not so hot with the bayonet. The Russians can't shoot, but have an all-round bonus in melee and a morale boost (not to mention, in NTW, their militia unit will kick anybodies ass with their hatchets o' doom :P), the Spanish have low morale, but a high recovery chance, the Prussians have expensive, but very, very, effective infantry. And the French, of course, have numbers. Levee en mass!


:elephant: Life is good! Yay!

Other suggested alternate history scenarios:

Sweden invades Mexico
Greece finally takes its revenge on the Persians (We know Greece is in there. Every other screenshot shows what looks like a Greek flag to me .-.)
Denmark and Belgium settle their ancient differences on bloody battlefields in Burma
Portugal seizes Scotland
Russia invades Switzerland (Oh wait, that actually happened :laugh4: )
Andorra invades and conquers France, Spain and Portugal. It then goes on to supplant the UK as the worlds great colonizer.
Tuscany re-unites Italy, deposes the Pope, reestablishes the Roman Empire, bans Christianity and launches a crusade against the filthy Christian dogs. Then feeds them to the lions.

[Megas Methuselah]

And the French, of course, have numbers. Levee en mass!

But the French Levee en mass didn't come into being until the French Revolution, I believe. I wonder if CA will portray levee en masse at all. It'd be pretty sweet if they did.


Tuscany re-unites Italy, deposes the Pope, reestablishes the Roman Empire, bans Christianity and launches a crusade against the filthy Christian dogs. Then feeds them to the lions.

Hmm. :idea2: Unite much of Europe under the Roman Republic, then start a revolution to form the Roman Empire under a monarch! Yeah!

[Sheogorath]

But the French Levee en mass didn't come into being until the French Revolution, I believe. I wonder if CA will portray levee en masse at all. It'd be pretty sweet if they did!

Apparently the Ancien Regime practiced recruitment by ballot, which is sort of similar. The first proper one occured during the French Revolution.

But, even so, the French had the largest population in Europe at the time. In 1700 France apparently had around 21 million people. In 1722 Russia only had 14 million. Apparently the Russian population didn't exceed the French until around 1800.


Hmm. :idea2: Unite much of Europe under the Roman Republic, then start a revolution to form the Roman Empire under a monarch! Yeah!

Then counter-revolution and form the Soviet Socialist Republic of Rome? SSRR?

[Megas Methuselah]

Apparently the Ancien Regime practiced recruitment by ballot, which is sort of similar. The first proper one occured during the French Revolution.

But that's the thing. A proper levee en masse could literally bring a million men under arms, a devastating number compared to the professional armies of the time.

Btw, I wonder if a communist "republic" could actually be created in-game through clever use of taxes and buildings, etc. It'd be pretty cool, methinks.

[ULC]

Sheogorath, what is this most interesting NTW you speak of that I must now try?

[Megas Methuselah]

Heh. I would answer that question, but you have clearly asked Sheo. Let him answer. :clown:

[Sheogorath]

Sheogorath, what is this most interesting NTW you speak of that I must now try?

Its a Napoleonic mod for Rome Total War. You don't even need BI for it.
You do, however, need other people to play against. The RTW is even worse at Napoleonic tactics than it is at Roman ones.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=154308&page=5

Scroll down to post #85 there.

You also need the 1.3 and 1.5 patches, and a fresh install of RTW.

It's an excellent mod, and the unit models/textures are quite amazing, given that they're done in RTW.


Heh. I would answer that question, but you have clearly asked Sheo. Let him answer. :clown:

Gratse :P

On the subject of the levee en masse, since the game has apparently been confirmed to end in 1800, I doubt we'll see it represented. Maybe in the inevitable 'Empire: Total War, Revolutions' expansion :P

[ULC]

Meth, what is NTW then?

[Megas Methuselah]

Yeah, it'd be a shame if levee en masse is missed out. Ah well, still good. And YLC, Sheo answered your question... :tongue2:

[ULC]

Yes, and I totally missed it :laugh4:

Thanks Sheo :2thumbsup:

[Fisherking]

:book:

If you can study technologies to bring your self up to steamboats and machineguns do you think we will have a French Balloon Corps and a Dutch Bicycle Brigade? :dizzy2:

:hide:

[Sheogorath]

NP, YLC. The only bad thing about NTW is that the website shut down. S'a real shame.

Fisherking, I'm more looking forward to the dreaded Indian Elephant Balloon Division, complete with trunk-mounted tactical nuclear warhead launchers and lasers on their foreheads. BE VERY AFRAID.

[ULC]

Yes, and for Naval battles, we will have rocket dolphins and Sharks with frickin lasers on their heads! Your Finest First Rate will stand no chance!

[Sheogorath]

Yes, and for Naval battles, we will have rocket dolphins and Sharks with frickin lasers on their heads! Your Finest First Rate will stand no chance!
https://img57.imageshack.us/img57/4265/1198263545602li8.th.jpg (https://img57.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1198263545602li8.jpg)

Your glory will only last until we finish work on Diebuster :P

[Jolt]

Then counter-revolution and form the Soviet Socialist Republic of Rome? SSRR?

Soviet is the word for council in Russian. Considering the Roman Republic's language would be Latin I suppose)

It would have to be called in English: Concillium Socialist Republic of Rome. CSRR. Or Concilium Socialis Res Publica Romani. "Council Socialist Public Thing Roman" literally translated, or "Roman Socialist Council which is a Public Thing" translated into English. Or if you wish to turn Res Publica (Which is the original Latin Word), which means "Public Thing", to Respublica, which would mean your Republic, then it would be "Roman Socialist Republic Council". CSRPR or RSCPT or RSRC. Man, translating languages is fun.


Cacodores for the Spanish/Portuguese.

Wait... What? Do you mean something like Caçadores? Hunters?

[Sheogorath]

Soviet is the word for council in Russian. Considering the Roman Republic's language would be Latin I suppose)

It would have to be called in English: Concillium Socialist Republic of Rome. CSRR. Or Concilium Socialis Res Publica Romani. "Council Socialist Public Thing Roman" literally translated, or "Roman Socialist Council which is a Public Thing" translated into English. Or if you wish to turn Res Publica (Which is the original Latin Word), which means "Public Thing", to Respublica, which would mean your Republic, then it would be "Roman Socialist Republic Council". CSRPR or RSCPT or RSRC. Man, translating languages is fun.

I know. However, the term 'Soviet' is inextricably linked with the idea of a communist/socialist state in most peoples minds. And it sounds cool.




Wait... What? Do you mean something like Caçadores? Hunters?

I don't have a keypad on my laptop, so I cant use the funny ASCII characters.
But yeah. Spanish/Portuguese skirmishers. The equivalent of 'Jaeger' in Eastern Europe. They were rather famous at the time.

[Martok]

Gentlemen, if you're going to discuss historical matters, please do so in the Monastery. :focus:


I've been curious about whether factions who have colonies in North America will be able to recruit native Indian troops to supplement their regular forces. Perhaps only on a mercenary basis?

[Sheogorath]

Eh? ._.
I'd think that some discussion of history would be inevitable and unavoidable in this topic. Considering the subject matter is directly linked...

Anyway...I'd HOPE that we would see some actual formal native units, but I doubt it. Most likely, as you said, we'll get mercenary natives.

I just hope that we don't end up with crazy horse-riding, Apache-clone Iroquois :dizzy2:

[Polemists]

I just hope that we don't end up with crazy horse-riding, Apache-clone Iroquois

While I do agree with that I do hope the natives have something similar to the Warpath function, where they unite together and drive towards a single point. Maybe targets given by a council of tribes or something.

I mean it will get rather boring if we just pick of individual natives one by one. I'm hoping they have some sort of faction, defense functionality.

Like hey we are all getting wiped out by france, from armies coming out of Lousiana, let's unite and take out Louisana, type thing.

[Fisherking]

History as it relates to the Game:

The only Native American Tribe east of the Mississippi River noted for their horses were the Choctaws but they didn’t ride into battle, they fought on foot, even though they may have been one of the first tribes to acquire horses.

I don’t recall seeing a map of the North American Theater so I don’t know how far west it goes. But naturally the South Plains is where you will find the earliest horsemen. The Comanche, Kiowa, and various Apaches may have had horses in 1700 but Sioux were still pedestrian woodland people at the start of the game.

It would be an acquired technology I suppose.

[Megas Methuselah]

While I do agree with that I do hope the natives have something similar to the Warpath function, where they unite together and drive towards a single point. Maybe targets given by a council of tribes or something.

I mean it will get rather boring if we just pick of individual natives one by one. I'm hoping they have some sort of faction, defense functionality.

Like hey we are all getting wiped out by france, from armies coming out of Lousiana, let's unite and take out Louisana, type thing.

While my knowledge of this era is somewhat fuzzy, and due to the fact that I am falling asleep right now, it is a likely possibility that the following statements are somewhat misleading or downright false, and should, in fact, no way be taken as solid truth.

Isn't that similar to what Tecumseh did? If he had survived the war of 1812, he might've gone on to achieve great things, ie. a union of Native American tribes. Although this is somewhat ahead of the game's timeframe, I see why reason as to why this couldn't happen at an earlier date.

:yes:

[Fisherking]

While I do agree with that I do hope the natives have something similar to the Warpath function, where they unite together and drive towards a single point. Maybe targets given by a council of tribes or something.

I mean it will get rather boring if we just pick of individual natives one by one. I'm hoping they have some sort of faction, defense functionality.

Like hey we are all getting wiped out by france, from armies coming out of Lousiana, let's unite and take out Louisana, type thing.


Look, I have no idea how it should be done in a game, but North America was not Europe. Movement was slow and mostly by water, using Native technology. European methods broke down quickly and the Tribes learned fast.

When the French went to war with the Fox (not exactly a huge tribe) they didn’t manage to wipe them out. The Fox cannon proofed their villages and withstood the French and drove them out (presumably with the aid of the Sauk and Sioux). But countering cannon is no mean feat! (they must have been wonderful diggers)

It was pretty much the other way around. The Europeans were in much more danger of being wiped out by the Tribes. That is why the English did so much to cultivate friendship with the Iroquois. They had already fought the French to a standstill and wiped out several of their allied Tribes. The English were close to loosing the French and Indian War until they got the Iroquois to enter the war on their side.

The great French victory over the Natchez was actually a Choctaw victory where the French were present. The French almost lost Fort Detroit to the Fox, only the timely arrival of a strong relief force saved it, and they lost a couple of forts to the Mohawk, as well as having settlements sacked and burned.

It was a different Theater with different tactics needed because of the environment. Diplomacy , Trade, and Gifts were the keys to keeping the Tribes on your side, and without their aid you just were not going to succeed. Indian Wars usually lasted until the Europeans could manage a peace agreement and never hurt the Indians that much until after the American Revolution. At best they ended in a draw.



Isn't that similar to what Tecumseh did? If he had survived the war of 1812, he might've gone on to achieve great things, ie. a union of Native American tribes. Although this is somewhat ahead of the game's timeframe, I see why reason as to why this couldn't happen at an earlier date.

It will depend on how the Diplomacy is set up for the Tribes, but yes it would be fun to see. Especially if they are moded for human players.

It is a lot of what if after all!

[Polemists]

I wasn't saying the Natives had to be like Europeans or that they had to do a certain function.

I was simply stating how I hoped they would not become the new bandit/rebel entity of ETW, basically a bunch of push overs.

If European powers start to steam roll over them, I'd think it would be pretty logical for them to go, hey let's get together. Just like if they steam rolled over Euro's i'd think the opposite would hold true.

Yes Indian war is fascinating but just not sure how much or little of it CA will put in. Judging by how historic it is, and the fact it has a movie, it will probably at very least recieve a cursory mention.

[Oleander Ardens]

Generic "Indian" units:


Warrior (focus melee) with a bow
Skirmisher with Bow
Skirmisher with Musket
Elite Skirmisher with Bow
Elite Skirmisher with Musket


@Fisherking

While I appreciate your efforts for the Native Americans, you portray quite an one-sided picture of the situation. Comments like are sadly far from true for this timeframe:


It was pretty much the other way around. The Europeans were in much more danger of being wiped out by the Tribes. That is why the English did so much to cultivate friendship with the Iroquois. They had already fought the French to a standstill and wiped out several of their allied Tribes. The English were close to loosing the French and Indian War until they got the Iroquois to enter the war on their side.

At that time the European settlers in Britsh North America were roughly short of a million, controlling large swaths of lands conquered from destroyed/drive out tribes. New French was populated just by 50000. The Iroquois were important, adding a rather large amount of capable warriors and scouts, but certainly not a decisive one.



It was a different Theater with different tactics needed because of the environment. Diplomacy , Trade, and Gifts were the keys to keeping the Tribes on your side, and without their aid you just were not going to succeed. Indian Wars usually lasted until the Europeans could manage a peace agreement and never hurt the Indians that much until after the American Revolution. At best they ended in a draw.


Saying that the wars against the Europeans did not hurt much is quite a thing to say, considering all the land lost and all the vanished tribes already around 1750. A terrible "draw" for many Indian tribes indeed...

[Mailman653]

And now for something completely different:

Black Soldiers and Sailors During the Revolution (http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/2004_summer_fall/soldiers.htm)
It mentions soldiers serving in either mixed or colored regiments for both American and British armies/navies.

The speculation part is, will they have to be modded in or would they have some representation in the game?

[Martok]

Good question, Mailman. Historically, a number of blacks did indeed serve in the war on both sides, so it's certainly within the bounds of realism.

Going by the screenshots thus far, it would appear it'd probably have to be modded (assuming that's possible). It would be cool, though, if they make some sort of appearance -- at least in the Road to Independence campaign, if nothing else.

[Fisherking]

@Oleander Ardens


While I appreciate your efforts for the Native Americans, you portray quite an one-sided picture of the situation. Comments like are sadly far from true for this timeframe:


No, I don’t think so. While this is about game speculation it does require some historical back ground.

In 1700 the tribes were not broken anywhere outside New England. Only one war of consequence had been fought and that did break the two or three tribes involved. King Philip's War (1675-76). But it killed off close to half the white population of New England in the process, and they were still nervous about what could happen. New England of the time were only the three colonies of Rode island, Connecticut, and Massachusetts. Those tribes were not eliminated but broken. There were other tribes that didn’t join in or were allied with the colonists so it is not like there were no tribes left there.

The tribes that were eliminated were those of the French Iroquois War and were eliminated by the Iroquois, but that didn’t mean France was without allied tribes.

The fledgling United States faced serious threats from the tribes and fought intermittent wars with various tribes up until the 1890s.

At the start of the game in 1700 there are powerful tribes and all the Europeans were courting them for trade and diplomatic alliance. Most Indian Wars ended in settlement not eradication until after the American Revolution, when the power of the Iroquois was broken, but again and again disease even more than war was the prime factor. Even in the 1750s as you say, they were a potent force. Pontiacs Rebellion ended in settlement in 1763 with the issuance of The Proclamation of 1763 giving lands west of the Appalachians to the Tribes.

If they were so weak, then why would an ever hungry and expanding Briton do that?
The power of the tribes was broken by the end of The War of 1812 but up to that point they still were a potent threat, if not to the existence at least the expansion of the U.S.

Now this is only my opinion but I don’t think they should be destructible in this game. Their settlements are moveable and what ever is left can pick up and relocate. Sort of like the Pope, or the Mongols in MIITW. At some point they may be impotent but not destructible.

[Sheogorath]

Ideas for Elephant Based Units:

Panzerphants - Elephants with a 12lber cannon strapped to each side. Mostly intended to fire grapeshot into infantry as they charge.

Balloonaphants- Elephants equipped with hot air balloons. Used to scout the battlefield and poop on enemy generals from high altitude, lowering enemy morale.

Submarineiphants- Elephants with tanks of air strapped to their sides, for amphibious operations. May also carry primitive steam engines later on. And torpedoes.

Trainiphants- Elephants with wheels designed to run on train tracks.

Elelelephants- Yo bro, we heard you like elephants, so we put an elephant in your elephant so you can ride an elephant while you ride an elephant.

Quasiquantumphasestatesubnucleonicparticleacceleratedstringdetachedmessielineardactyschrondingerleph ants - Elephants which are transported to the battlefield in boxes and placed in the enemy camp. When the enemy opens the box, the elephants undergo a waveform collapse, turn into black holes, and destroy the entire continent.

[Robespierre]

I endorse all these elephant concept-units, but don't forget the sound-system bearing cheesyquaverphant.

[seireikhaan]

Quasiquantumphasestatesubnucleonicparticleacceleratedstringdetachedmessielineardactyschrondingerleph ants - Elephants which are transported to the battlefield in boxes and placed in the enemy camp. When the enemy opens the box, the elephants undergo a waveform collapse, turn into black holes, and destroy the entire continent.
:laugh4:

Brilliant.

[Jolt]

Ideas for Elephant Based Units:

Panzerphants - Elephants with a 12lber cannon strapped to each side. Mostly intended to fire grapeshot into infantry as they charge.

Balloonaphants- Elephants equipped with hot air balloons. Used to scout the battlefield and poop on enemy generals from high altitude, lowering enemy morale.

Submarineiphants- Elephants with tanks of air strapped to their sides, for amphibious operations. May also carry primitive steam engines later on. And torpedoes.

Trainiphants- Elephants with wheels designed to run on train tracks.

Elelelephants- Yo bro, we heard you like elephants, so we put an elephant in your elephant so you can ride an elephant while you ride an elephant.

Quasiquantumphasestatesubnucleonicparticleacceleratedstringdetachedmessielineardactyschrondingerleph ants - Elephants which are transported to the battlefield in boxes and placed in the enemy camp. When the enemy opens the box, the elephants undergo a waveform collapse, turn into black holes, and destroy the entire continent.

I wouldn't be too surprised if they implemented some of your suggestions, from the large numbers of EleFANts in the Total Wardom.

But I think you forgot two important ones.

Incendiary Elephant - Elephants which are set on fire to disrupt the enemy formations and to frighten them greatly.

Pyrophants - Elephants genetically modified by Alexander's physicians when he conquered India, to incorporate them in his army. Elephants who, instead jetting water from the trunk, it jetted the fearful genetically modified Greek Fire, the Elephire, which burned everything it touched on and couldn't be extinguished.

[Oleander Ardens]

It is nice to discuss this weighty issue with you, Fisherking, even when in danger to be flanked by a Pyrofant.


In 1700 the tribes were not broken anywhere outside New England. Only one war of consequence had been fought and that did break the two or three tribes involved. King Philip's War (1675-76). But it killed off close to half the white population of New England in the process, and they were still nervous about what could happen. New England of the time were only the three colonies of Rode island, Connecticut, and Massachusetts. Those tribes were not eliminated but broken. There were other tribes that didn’t join in or were allied with the colonists so it is not like there were no tribes left there.

The tribes that were eliminated were those of the French Iroquois War and were eliminated by the Iroquois, but that didn’t mean France was without allied tribes.


Personally I think we should move this discussion to the Monastery, a more proper place to exchange historical arguments.

The number of casualities in the King Philip war seems to be heavily disputed, at least in the Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:King_Philip%27s_War). Still it is sure that the Native Americans came off far worse in relation to the settlers, suffering up to disputed 7 out 8 dead compared to disputed 6 out of 13 dead for the settlers. Anyway this happened outside the timeframe of the game (1675) and in 1700 the position of the settlers was far stronger and the one of the Native Americans far weaker in the territory in question, with an ever growing number of new settlements for the former.

You point rightly out that the British and especially the French made great use of alliances, but try to make the case that this shows the weakness of the settlers. However it is quite obvious that diplomacy and trade enabled both to fight each other and other tribes with far fewer men and ressources than required otherwise and helped to enable the free flow of trade so important to both sides, especially in Canada. While not part of a grand strategy, this was partly "divide and conquer", used so often also by the mightiest empires like Rome, and surely not a dimostration of weakness.


At the start of the game in 1700 there are powerful tribes and all the Europeans were courting them for trade and diplomatic alliance. Most Indian Wars ended in settlement not eradication until after the American Revolution, when the power of the Iroquois was broken, but again and again disease even more than war was the prime factor. Even in the 1750s as you say, they were a potent force. Pontiacs Rebellion ended in settlement in 1763 with the issuance of The Proclamation of 1763 giving lands west of the Appalachians to the Tribes.

If they were so weak, then why would an ever hungry and expanding Briton do that?
The power of the tribes was broken by the end of The War of 1812 but up to that point they still were a potent threat, if not to the existence at least the expansion of the U.S.


The "Pontiacs Rebellion" was the most successfull fight the Native Americans put up in the timeframe of the game. It proved to be a costly affair for the settlers and especially the British crown, and ended with a settlement both beneficial to the Native Americans and the British. The British were not hungry to expand and even tried to stop the influx of settlers in territories in question. When the fight was picked up again by men with more vested interest in the region, the outcome was a harsh one for the Native Americans.


The fledgling United States faced serious threats from the tribes and fought intermittent wars with various tribes up until the 1890s.

Now this is only my opinion but I don’t think they should be destructible in this game. Their settlements are moveable and what ever is left can pick up and relocate. Sort of like the Pope, or the Mongols in MIITW. At some point they may be impotent but not destructible.

I strongly disagree with this statements. The existence of the USA was never seriously questioned by the various Indian wars which were ended when part of the vast superiority in ressources was directed against the resisting Indians. There were some great Indian victories, sometimes against greater number and testimony to their skill as warriors, but more terrible defeats.

The Indian settlements should be partly movable but certainly destroyable, as history shows us. The European settler destroyed many with brutal raids, killing often everybody in them, just like the Native Americans did.

A good discussion nevertheless.

[Intrepid Sidekick]

Quasiquantumphasestatesubnucleonicparticleacceleratedstringdetachedmessielineardactyschrondingerleph ants
- Elephants which are transported to the battlefield in boxes and placed in the enemy camp. When the enemy opens the box, the elephants undergo a waveform collapse, turn into black holes, and destroy the entire continent.

We do have these very high up the tech tree. But it takes a looooooooooooooooooooooooooong time to get them. :laugh4:

[Oleander Ardens]

We do have these very high up the tech tree. But it takes a looooooooooooooooooooooooooong time to get them.

Ah the mist of mistery thins - Sheogorath is a hidden deep throat sent forward in this chambers to spread soundbites of all sorts of :elephant: :elephant: to test the waters..........

Now it is revealed by an far too intrepid sidekick - I shall send my army of :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: to teach both a lesson in humility, and to squeezes more info out of them...

[Sheogorath]

We do have these very high up the tech tree. But it takes a looooooooooooooooooooooooooong time to get them. :laugh4:

Awww, man. I hardly ever even got to gunpowder in MTWII. :laugh4:


Ah the mist of mistery thins - Sheogorath is a hidden deep throat sent forward in this chambers to spread soundbites of all sorts of :elephant: :elephant: to test the waters..........

Now it is revealed by an far too intrepid sidekick - I shall send my army of :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant: to teach both a lesson in humility, and to squeezes more info out of them...

SHHHHH! They'll find out!

[Sir Beane]

Here's my pachyderm-related suggestions, because elephants are the REAL point of this thread.

Elephant Impressionist

Sneaks into the enemy camp at night and assasinates their general by sitting on him in his sleep. The elephant then dresses in the general's clothes and takes command of the enemy forces. Upon encountering these elephant-led forces in battle you will notice the 'enemy general' give deliberately stupid orders which in fact help the Elephant Impressionists side.

Interestingly these units were already in place in Medieval 2 and were responsible for certain things such as the passive AI 'bug'. Also every enemy general was one. No one noticed until now though.

As for the enemy soldiers not realising that their general is now several metres taller, grey, and has a trunk? Well the Elephant Impressionist is really good at voices, and he had some acting lessons... he's just THAT GOOD, ok?

Elephant Militia

Recruited from the local population of pachyderms sympathetic to your cause. In theory a militia unit of foaming at the mouth mad-with-patriotic-pride elephants would be a fearsome foe. However it is an almost immutable law of Total War games that unless you are playing as an Italian faction then militia sucks, so these elephants actually have one attack, no defense and negative one hitpoints, meaning that they keel over the instant the battle begins. Useful for a handy field ration.

Elephant Pipers

A famous historical unit, so CA has to include them. These shaggy highland elephants are renowned for their skill with the bagpipes and their ferocity in battle. Raises nearby unit morale. Famously they marched with Bonnie Prince Charlie all the way to the city of Derby, where contrary to popular belief he turned round because he realised Derby just wasn't worth it. The elephants, however, stayed and started up a pub. True story.

Not Actually An Elephant

This unit is really a French nobleman in a costume attempting to escape from the revolutionaries in France. His plan backfired when the zipper got stuck, and he was drafted with a local herd into fighting for the war effort. Mysteriously effective in combat.

The Omegaphant

Upon completion of its training this elephant ends the game with a victory for the faction who trained it. How does it do this? None can say, there were no survivors.

[Sheogorath]

Here's my pachyderm-related suggestions, because elephants are the REAL point of this thread.

Elephant Impressionist

Sneaks into the enemy camp at night and assasinates their general by sitting on him in his sleep. The elephant then dresses in the general's clothes and takes command of the enemy forces. Upon encountering these elephant-led forces in battle you will notice the 'enemy general' give deliberately stupid orders which in fact help the Elephant Impressionists side.

Interestingly these units were already in place in Medieval 2 and were responsible for certain things such as the passive AI 'bug'. Also every enemy general was one. No one noticed until now though.

As for the enemy soldiers not realising that their general is now several metres taller, grey, and has a trunk? Well the Elephant Impressionist is really good at voices, and he had some acting lessons... he's just THAT GOOD, ok? .

Actually...

One might theorize that, by the time MTWII began, ALL the AI generals had been replaced with Elephants. Hence their general belligerence, stupidity, and curious voice acting. This also conveniently explains why Poles and Scandinavians had Russian accents. Elephants are notoriously bad at Scandinavian languages and are well known for their anti-Polish sentiments.

[Martok]

Here's my pachyderm-related suggestions, because elephants are the REAL point of this thread.

Elephant Impressionist

Sneaks into the enemy camp at night and assasinates their general by sitting on him in his sleep. The elephant then dresses in the general's clothes and takes command of the enemy forces. Upon encountering these elephant-led forces in battle you will notice the 'enemy general' give deliberately stupid orders which in fact help the Elephant Impressionists side.

Interestingly these units were already in place in Medieval 2 and were responsible for certain things such as the passive AI 'bug'. Also every enemy general was one. No one noticed until now though.

As for the enemy soldiers not realising that their general is now several metres taller, grey, and has a trunk? Well the Elephant Impressionist is really good at voices, and he had some acting lessons... he's just THAT GOOD, ok?

Elephant Militia

Recruited from the local population of pachyderms sympathetic to your cause. In theory a militia unit of foaming at the mouth mad-with-patriotic-pride elephants would be a fearsome foe. However it is an almost immutable law of Total War games that unless you are playing as an Italian faction then militia sucks, so these elephants actually have one attack, no defense and negative one hitpoints, meaning that they keel over the instant the battle begins. Useful for a handy field ration.

Elephant Pipers

A famous historical unit, so CA has to include them. These shaggy highland elephants are renowned for their skill with the bagpipes and their ferocity in battle. Raises nearby unit morale. Famously they marched with Bonnie Prince Charlie all the way to the city of Derby, where contrary to popular belief he turned round because he realised Derby just wasn't worth it. The elephants, however, stayed and started up a pub. True story.

Not Actually An Elephant

This unit is really a French nobleman in a costume attempting to escape from the revolutionaries in France. His plan backfired when the zipper got stuck, and he was drafted with a local herd into fighting for the war effort. Mysteriously effective in combat.

The Omegaphant

Upon completion of its training this elephant ends the game with a victory for the faction who trained it. How does it do this? None can say, there were no survivors.



[Martok literally falls out of his chair laughing]


:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Megas Methuselah]

:laugh4: :elephant: :laugh4:

I like the militias and french nobleman!

[Parado)(]

I sudgest Bear Cavalry.
Giant brown bears being ridden by mad musket wielding russians with bayonets.
Or Bears wielding muskets riding elephants.

[Polemists]

I sudgest Bear Cavalry.
Giant brown bears being ridden by mad musket wielding russians with bayonets.
Or Bears wielding muskets riding elephants.

Hello red alert 3, I didn't see you standing back there, tell me are blade wielding ninjas from the east also going to make a apperance?

[Sir Beane]

Hello red alert 3, I didn't see you standing back there, tell me are blade wielding ninjas from the east also going to make a apperance?

Since CA have forgotten Asia exists since they made Shogun I doubt anyone has to worry about that particular fantasy unit :laugh4:

Personally I would welcome black-clad, smokebomb-throwing ninja if it meant CA were also going to include the Far East in the game. Some ahistoric silliness can be forgiven in that case I think.

[Fisherking]

Ah yes! North America is in this game. That gives you alligators, bison, and the biggest bears of all to work with.

So how about Buffalo Cavalry and Alligator Artillery to counter some of those Elephant Rock Launchers! Both could also be used as temporary bridges to out flank the enemy. Of course a stampede would actually be enough to win a battle or destroy a settlement.

[Sir Beane]

Ah yes! North America is in this game. That gives you alligators, bison, and the biggest bears of all to work with.

So how about Buffalo Cavalry and Alligator Artillery to counter some of those Elephant Rock Launchers! Both could also be used as temporary bridges to out flank the enemy. Of course a stampede would actually be enough to win a battle or destroy a settlement.

I like the way you think Sir! Aliigator artillery would be perfect for Empire, as they could be used as both a land and naval unit! Also I imagine that tomahawk weilding bears would be a fearsome sight to behold.

And let us not forget the mighty Canadian beaver. They may be small, but that can chew through a towns walls in a few minutes flat. Perfect seige equipment! And they can use the wood to build things for you on their days off.

[Fisherking]

Great point Sir Beane!

But those wonderful Beavers put me in mind of something. Pioneers and Sappers! Where are they? I know this game must have entrenchments as well as several types of forts. Dose it mean they are only notional or will we be able to use them against enemy fortifications? But then again…the battles don’t last long enough for counter trenches and moving artillery forward under cover…but being able to start a battle entrenched would be a blessing…or a curse…

Anyway the beaver would be also useful in destroying enemy fleets at anchor.
:laugh4:

[Parado)(]

Hello red alert 3, I didn't see you standing back there, tell me are blade wielding ninjas from the east also going to make a apperance?

The concept of bears that can fire laser beams is a concept that pre-dates RA3. I also wonder why blade wielding ninjas are so unusual. Oh sure they have a variety of useable killing impliments at thier disposal but a nice blade has a definate edge about it. Also factoring in that Ninjas originated from the east there coming from there would not be exactly suprising.

If it where included in the game I'd sudgest Kangaroo cavalry. Though i have to say Beavers as sappers is a great idea if they where backed up by the Moles :P

[Sir Beane]

The concept of bears that can fire laser beams is a concept that pre-dates RA3. I also wonder why blade wielding ninjas are so unusual. Oh sure they have a variety of useable killing impliments at thier disposal but a nice blade has a definate edge about it. Also factoring in that Ninjas originated from the east there coming from there would not be exactly suprising.

If it where included in the game I'd sudgest Kangaroo cavalry. Though i have to say Beavers as sappers is a great idea if they where backed up by the Moles :P

If only Australia were in the game. :P

As for the ninja, historically the guy dressed in black with the katana and shuriken was actually the distraction. While he was running around the castle throwing smoke bombs and generally being a nuisance the real assasin would finish of the target nice and quietly.

Usually the actual assasin got in a few weeks before posing as a cook, or a gardener, or a carpenter.

Fancy blades and things were rarely carried by ninja, Japan is a metal poor country so decent weapons werent affordable enough to give to expendable peons. :laugh4:

As for the moles as a backup to beavers? Excellent. Whilst the beavers chew through the gates the moles can be undermining foundations and placing explosives under key structural points.

*Sigh* All this talk of sappers is making me wish they would actually appear in game, which, alas, is unlikely.

[The New Che Guevara]

Then counter-revolution and form the Soviet Socialist Republic of Rome? SSRR?

I AM THERE!

I wonder...

What decides the revolutionary group in the revolution?

and what about the threat of monarchists if there is a successful revolution... (ie Jacobite, not the best... only one I really know).

So many questions... so little time.

Might like to extend timeline to fit in Marx and the rise of Socialism/Communism. Unite the world under one banner... my god, my dreams could become real!:laugh4:


Does anyone wonder about the side effects of games like these?
I have to stop myself... I'm starting to drool over the possibilities...

[lenin96]

Since CA have forgotten Asia exists since they made Shogun I doubt anyone has to worry about that particular fantasy unit :laugh4:

But CA gave ninjas to the romans in RTW so there will probaly be a crazy unit in ETW.:yes:

[Sir Beane]

I AM THERE!

I wonder...

What decides the revolutionary group in the revolution?

and what about the threat of monarchists if there is a successful revolution... (ie Jacobite, not the best... only one I really know).

So many questions... so little time.

Might like to extend timeline to fit in Marx and the rise of Socialism/Communism. Unite the world under one banner... my god, my dreams could become real!:laugh4:


Does anyone wonder about the side effects of games like these?
I have to stop myself... I'm starting to drool over the possibilities...

Woah there! You should probably calm down and wipe the drool away. :sweatdrop:

Please don't get any ideas about taking over the world after playing Empire, I doubt the current military strategists will be as easy to beat as a Total War general :laugh4:

Also can you imagine the headlines? "Gamer Driven To World Domination By Videogame!" Everyone on the Org would be arrested under suspicion of terrorism :P

And it's really difficult finding thousands of men with rifles these days, believe me, I've tried.

If you're gonna take over the world you'll have to do it sneaky like, step by step. I suggest you try and take over somewhere like Madagascar first. Leave France and the rest for later. :2thumbsup:

As for monarchists? I'm pretty sure they will be in as rebellions if you mis-manage your Republic and screw over the upper class tax-wise.

Also, by the by, if anyone here at the Org ever fancies a crack at world domination then I volunteer my services as a General and also a public relations guy. Every dictator needs to look good for the plebs :laugh4:

[Fisherking]

For this era we may be missing the most important unit of all and no one has said a word!:smash:
No one cam march or fight without the “Regimental Band”. Where are the pipers and drummers? Where are the fifes and glockenspiels!

Without them no one is going to stay in step! Who sounds the charge or withdraw! This just won’t work without them. They are at least as important as the General, maybe more so!:whip:

[Sir Beane]

For this era we may be missing the most important unit of all and no one has said a word!:smash:
No one cam march or fight without the “Regimental Band”. Where are the pipers and drummers? Where are the fifes and glockenspiels!

Without them no one is going to stay in step! Who sounds the charge or withdraw! This just won’t work without them. They are at least as important as the General, maybe more so!:whip:

From what CA have said it looks like musicians will actually be in the game! They have confirmed pipes and drummers, no word yet on trumpeters, fifes, glockenspiels, keyboards, saxophones and the all important lead electric guitar though.

My armies will consist of nothing but musical units. We shall play a rhumba of conquest throughout the world!

[Fisherking]

Since exploding ammunition and rocket artillery tend to set fires, do you think this will be a part of the game?

Will the enemy be able to set fires deliberately…or will you? It isn’t as though it wasn’t done…

More curiosity than speculation…



Put that in your flaming pipe and smoke it!
:clown:

[Megas Methuselah]

Enemies of my people, hear my bagpipes and woe! :laugh4:

[Sheogorath]

Enemies of my people, hear my bagpipes and woe! :laugh4:

And follow up with a good ol' highland charge!

In the right era, this time ;)

[Megas Methuselah]

I wonder if the Native American factions will actually get a varied unit roster other than 3 types of troops, namely archers, musketeers, and a melee unit? By bringing this into the conversation, we could also ask the same of all minor factions: although many of their units may well be generic, will they at least be numerically varied?

Playing a faction with only 3-4 different unit types will be immensely unsatisfying... :sad:

[_Pontifex_]

Bear cavalry. Excellent idea.

I think it would be interesting to see that as a cheat just like the oliphaunts in RTW. :D

I do hope it will be more than the boring old volleys though. I do plan on a Picket's charge-esque run every now and then, just to keep things spicy. Of course, dragoons will be employed as well. :P

[Sir Beane]

I wonder if the Native American factions will actually get a varied unit roster other than 3 types of troops, namely archers, musketeers, and a melee unit? By bringing this into the conversation, we could also ask the same of all minor factions: although many of their units may well be generic, will they at least be numerically varied?

Playing a faction with only 3-4 different unit types will be immensely unsatisfying... :sad:

Each minor faction will probably get a mixed unit roster based on those factions geographically or politically similar to it. Expect Venice/Papal States/Florence to all have a similar set. Portugal will probably get Spanish units (unless they are both playable) /Saxony/Bavaria/Other German states will probably have a mixture od Sweden and Prussia, with maybe a little Austria thrown in. The Khanate of the Crimean will probably get Russia's units. Fez and Morocco and The Barbary States will probably be watered down Ottoman with maybe a few generic 'arabian' and 'camel' units thrown in.

Don't expect Native Americas to be much more varied than when the appeared in Kingdoms.

[Sheogorath]

On the subject of volleys, I think it would be great if we could see a difference in the firing methods of units.
I did notice that, in MTW2, gunpowder units with higher experience have a different firing method than unexperienced ones. In unexperienced units, the front rank fires, then walks back, while the second rank walks forward. In experienced ones, the front rank simply kneels and the rear rank fires while they reload...which increases your rate of fire quite a lot.

This actually does make sense, since firing by rank was something generally restricted to highly trained and disciplined units. Not something your average conscript fresh off the farm would do.

So, seeing something like...totally undisciplined fire after the first volley (which would be quite ragged) for fresh units, then nice, regular volleys for bronze units (going by the chevron system here) followed by free-fire, a slightly faster rate of fire for silver units, with no free-fire, and the ability to fire by rank for gold level units.

Just a rough idea, of course.

[Sir Beane]

On the subject of volleys, I think it would be great if we could see a difference in the firing methods of units.
I did notice that, in MTW2, gunpowder units with higher experience have a different firing method than unexperienced ones. In unexperienced units, the front rank fires, then walks back, while the second rank walks forward. In experienced ones, the front rank simply kneels and the rear rank fires while they reload...which increases your rate of fire quite a lot.

This actually does make sense, since firing by rank was something generally restricted to highly trained and disciplined units. Not something your average conscript fresh off the farm would do.

So, seeing something like...totally undisciplined fire after the first volley (which would be quite ragged) for fresh units, then nice, regular volleys for bronze units (going by the chevron system here) followed by free-fire, a slightly faster rate of fire for silver units, with no free-fire, and the ability to fire by rank for gold level units.

Just a rough idea, of course.

This will almost certainly be represented in the game by technology research. CA have already said as you get better tech you can research new formations and firing drills to help make your troops more efficient and faster shots.

It would be great if higher experience units were the only ones that could use certain drills though.