View Full Version : Nomad questions
I was wondering what is the differnce between horse archers and raiders? i noticed for ex. that the latter cost a little more but do 1 more in arrow damage, while having a -3 in melee, so wich would be the best? also how can it be that 3 units of saka horse archers and a general managed to outshoot 4 units of thanvare payadang? they were all standing perfectli still and neither had any armour upgrades, more or less the same exp. and the gen only had 40 men? oh and they all had full quivers.
Tristuskhan
12-02-2008, 19:02
Raiders have a much better charge (27 usually) and a much greater upkeep. Horse-archers are to be the bulk of your force in the early game, raiders beeng a nice addition to your bodyguards as shock cavalry.
Later, when you are rich, if you can afford them, nobles could replace both raiders and horse-archers. But even then, you'll probably keep on using your gold-chevroned old army, for sentimental reasons and because horse-archers and raiders once veterans can cripple even the best armies the foe can field.
Mediolanicus
12-02-2008, 21:42
Archers : bow + short sword = cheap + hold out marginally longer in a melee due to their swords
Riders : bow + spear = better charge
gamegeek2
12-02-2008, 23:11
Isn't it Riders, not raiders?
Tristuskhan
12-02-2008, 23:15
It is indeed :shame:
A Terribly Harmful Name
12-02-2008, 23:15
I generally switch to the Aorsi boys when I'm Sauromatae, they are just slightly more expensive than the Sauroamatae line HA's but have a far better charge and more defense against incoming arrows, as lousy as it still is.
After I've built two to three mines and conquered a reasonable amount of territories I add riders to my seasoned armies to get more shock power. They are far more effective against massed infantry and heavy cavalry than against nomad units, when noble HA's should be used.
gamegeek2
12-02-2008, 23:33
The problem is, Sauromatae are at a definite disadvantage against the overly-aggressive (against its steppe allies) Pahlava, who has 6 DAHAE NOBLES in Mazsakata in my current Sauro campaign. I do have two mines though. I'll have to FD peace with them, we need an FD fix for 1.
A Terribly Harmful Name
12-02-2008, 23:43
Wear them down, rinse and repeat. True steppe style.
By then you should have at least a silver chevroned FM. Shoot at their backs with cheap HA's then get your FM to massacre them together with the HA's charging at their backs.
Make sure your armoured fellows shoot at the enemy archers and have your FM's soak up the damage, they will recover eventually and won't suffer many casualties because of their armor.
Thanks but i'm already familiar with the steppe tactics (best victory: 1 ha's and 1 fm against 700 infantry 250 cav. on med. hard) but the reason i posted was to know the differnces between ha's and raiders or riders, not really shure, anyway wich is better as far as arrow range is concerned and also what about armoured ha's wich i still don't have are they worth the expense or should i just keep hiring riders\ha's?
A Terribly Harmful Name
12-03-2008, 03:55
Riders are the shock section of your steppe army. Apart from their lances and their armour, they are not distinct from your Horse Archers, being able to shoot and skirmish like them. To make up for these advantages, they are expensive.
Which means that they will always fill a niche role in your army, composed by a bulk of steppe horse archers. As I said, they might be necessary once facing massed formations of heavy cavalry and infantry, where their shock power can be a deciding factor. Other than that, you should stick with noble or line HA's.
artavazd
12-03-2008, 07:06
I love the steppe riders. With just 5 of these guys, I can decimate any army. Their shock value is the key to victory with these guys.
Well ok but it seemed like they had a little more range than normal ha's, but i'm talking about 20m so it's realy not that important.anyway they to require quite a bit of micromanaging due to their armour "lack" if i use'em as shok cavalry. (just to make shure i know shock cavalry is cavalry u use just for charges right?)
And would anyone give me a desription of pahlava armoured cavalry eg armoured ha's and kata's? please
oh and thx all for the reply's they're always very helpful
Tristuskhan
12-03-2008, 18:32
Armoured horse-archers are true kings of the battlefield, butchers, for the ennemies and for your coffers. Pathian cats and noble cats I never used much (but I face many of them in my current Getai campaign, hard nuts to crack, inflicting tremendous losses charging even veteran heavy infantery I field).
Grivpanvars are bulldozers, very sexy but cost a tremendous lot.
Well after 5 days or so of tests over tests i am now with pahlava again and have new and improved questiones!!!!!!!!!!!!:idea2:
Starting with the reformed government, i read i guide in the AAR section of the forum on this subject but it only had one post and no replys so it really wasn't that clear, how do i get it?
When fighting in woods i'm havig huge problems micro managing my horse-archers due to 1 sucky visibility,2 units can't charge properly or at least no effectively and 3 it seems archers in general have a hard time aiming (or is it just bad luck?)
What strategys do vets use in woods?
How do i know if a region has hidden resources in it? meanig that weird government thing?
that's all for now folks!
Well after 5 days or so of tests over tests i am now with pahlava again and have new and improved questiones!!!!!!!!!!!!:idea2:
Starting with the reformed government, i read i guide in the AAR section of the forum on this subject but it only had one post and no replys so it really wasn't that clear, how do i get it?
When fighting in woods i'm havig huge problems micro managing my horse-archers due to 1 sucky visibility,2 units can't charge properly or at least no effectively and 3 it seems archers in general have a hard time aiming (or is it just bad luck?)
What strategys do vets use in woods?
How do i know if a region has hidden resources in it? meanig that weird government thing?
that's all for now folks!
Guide to fighting in woods: Don't. Dense forests are not where you want to be fighting. You want plains and steppes, or an enemy city. The point of a cavalry nomad army is that you get to choose where you want to fight - send an expedition deep into enemy territory, kill a few single-unit stacks or something, distract them, bleed them, and then when they least expect it show up with a large cavalry army out of nowhere right outside one of their cities.
Funnily enough, you want to fight the same place a successor army wants to fight: a flat plain. And speaking as a fellow Pahlava player who just massacred a steppe army on a flat plain, I can confidently say that you have the better army for it.
Yeah i know..... problem being that AS beseiged the town north of hekatompylos, the one south of the sea and i had a ha army going south to take susa so i turned around and attacked them but the map is an incredibly,remarcably dense forest wich i thought did not exist in the area due to heavy salt levels in the sea.... or something like that. So i cant avoid the battle ,any suggestions?
johnhughthom
12-06-2008, 23:00
I started the Pahlav reform guide but a CTD in my AAR meant I was unable to continue it as i wanted to use screenshots, I will complete it eventually. Here is a list of what to build to get the reformed govt.
1-Military Occupation
2-Migration
3-Pastoralism
4-Large Nomad Market
5-Settled Community
6-Warlord's Horse Herds
7-Reformed Pastoralism
8-Advanced Settlement
9-Settled Aristocracy
10- Reformed Parthian Government
In that order? and what will the reform give me?
Also sorry for this off topic question. what does it mean when in the faq on the reforms for the celts it sais collectively? does it mean avery celt faction has to build lv3 markets to get the first reform or what?
Tristuskhan
12-06-2008, 23:04
Well after 5 days or so of tests over tests i am now with pahlava again and have new and improved questiones!!!!!!!!!!!!:idea2:
Starting with the reformed government, i read i guide in the AAR section of the forum on this subject but it only had one post and no replys so it really wasn't that clear, how do i get it?
Here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=97902
When fighting in woods i'm havig huge problems micro managing my horse-archers due to 1 sucky visibility,2 units can't charge properly or at least no effectively and 3 it seems archers in general have a hard time aiming (or is it just bad luck?)
What strategys do vets use in woods?
Don't fight in woods, for Ahura Mazda's Sake!Be agressive, chose your battlefields. Bypass Assak (is it Asaak?) and head for Hecatompylos , there are good battlefields for horse archers there and once you bled the AS a few dozen times Assak will lean undefended and ready to fall in the hands of a second-line army.
Edit: it must be Zadrakata, so head for Apameia
Reforms will give you a much better economy along with a few but precious units, like Grivpanvar and Hoplitaï.
ok but as i already posted i can't avoid it.....
thx for the rest though
Tristuskhan
12-07-2008, 00:33
If you can't avoid it, prepair for a Pyrrhic victory, in the best case. Next season you won't have to pay the upkeep of many of your veterans. It's good for your financial balance, though.
And if you are as lame as I am in the woods (that's a pity for a forest manager, uh....forests are made to hunt or work, not to make war), you'll probably never forget one of the first lessons for a nomad fighting helenes must learn: DON'T fight in the woods.
And something that can be helpful in the case you want to become a footman: mercenary hellenic medium phalanxes are your friends, and Hyrcanian hillmen too. But they are odd friends, since they fight walking, a barbaric fashion.
Uuuuuh ok but should i use more ha's or foot archers? and what abot fm's? also it's against 3 phalanxes so well it's gonna be hard......
plus i made a bunch of other questions no one as answerd yet i'd for example like an answer on the question abou celts please......
Tristuskhan
12-07-2008, 01:52
Only infantry matters when you are stuck in the forest. Use you FM cautiously for charges on pinned ennemies, keep your light horse archers out of the fray, look at your missile troops spending their stones/arrows for nothing and pray.
PS: there is a marvellous temperate rain forest in northern Iran, next to the shores of the Caspian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jungles_of_Iran , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Hyrcanian_mixed_forests
johnhughthom
12-07-2008, 04:34
http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/4/23/f_pahlavahomem_06cdcb6.png&srv=img34
Map of areas you can get Parthian Reformed Govt. And yes, you need to follow the order I posted above.
Ok I have one more question, is there a reason that warlord's elite herds never allow any unit recrutment? Is it they start only after you build the reformed government?
MerlinusCDXX
12-09-2008, 01:39
Elite Herds is just the precursor building to Warlords Horse Herds and offers no recruitment, recruitment from the Warlord's Herds building is dependent on AOR of steppe units (and, of course, faction). I forget what units the Pahlava get out of them (some kind of noble cavalry I believe, plus regular horsearchers with pastoralism- Pahlava is the only faction that can get regular, non-noble horsearchers with pastoralism). The building line is upgradable all the way to High King's Herds, which is where Parthian Cataphracts are recruited from, I forget what the levels in between are called. When upgrading a settlement to get the reformed government, building the Settled Aristocracy upgrade disables recruitment for the herds line. Recruitment with the Reformed Government depends on regular MICs like most factions get. Those MICs are what get you the ParthoHellenikoi Thureophoroi (your first crack at decent infantry), Kardaka Arteshtar (Persian Hoplites) , and the highly feared Grivpanzers (Grivpanvar- late Cataphracts), plus you can get most of the old (pastoralism) steppe and regular Eastern units depending on AOR.
And are the elite herds necessary for the reformed government?
johnhughthom
12-09-2008, 15:29
Elite Herds is just the precursor building to Warlords Horse Herds
So without them you can't get Warlords Horse Herds, which is a requirement for the reform.
Ok i'm practically done with the pahlava campaign so i decided to give a go at the "dreaded" saka, and i must say it's slightly more difficult that the pahlava one, so on with the questions!!!!!!!!!! Yaaaaay:beam::beam::beam::beam:
1) I took chach and led the army led by the FL towards the settlement to the west but when the rebels attack me i'm not on the hill, i'm on th base of it and my ha's get slaughtered by the ai's. i'd appreciate some help.
2) how different are thir gov.'s from the pahlava ones?
3)what is the deal with FM's they are real monsters!?!?!?!?! How can 1 unit of boodyguards slaughter 3 ha's and 1 foot archer with 20 casualties?
4)reading aar's ,general questions here and about and from personal experience i know the AI is retarded....i mean he has the brain of a banana.....why is it? is it possible to improve it by giving him simple battle schemes? how does the AI work?
I thank every one in advance for replys and the previous ones.
Marcus Ulpius
12-13-2008, 20:11
I can't help you with Saka, but to your question about AI. It hardly can be called artificial "intelligence". It is very straightforward, simplistic and non-flexible. Put it in any non-standard situation and it won't have a clue, so potentially hard battle can be turned into one sided massacre.
Like lately I was able to catch KH army on march to some 3 levy units on the hill. I hit the main bulk of their marching army with line of phalanxes and AI, despite having 4 general units was slaughtered, while losing a faction leader and 2 generals. It probably couldn't win in any case, but it could be an interesting battle where I could take some losses, instead I lost 100 men and killed around 800. Of those 100 lost the most were peltastai.
From what I know battle AI is hardcoded and can't be changed, although in M2TW they say it can be modified.
Tristuskhan
12-13-2008, 21:22
1) I took chach and led the army led by the FL towards the settlement to the west but when the rebels attack me i'm not on the hill, i'm on th base of it and my ha's get slaughtered by the ai's. i'd appreciate some help.
Toggle skirmish mod off for your HAs and rush for the top of the hill. Enemy HAs will skirmish away and leave you the hilltop. You'll first take casualtiesbut should get the upper hand quite fast. And moreover, every single man you have cost you too much in upkeep, so losses are welcome (or are they not?:smash:)
Oh, put your HA in loose formation and use your FM as a shield (he and his bodyguard are almost arrow-proof).
The battlefield A.I. can be improved a bit by installing a formation mod (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=90313). Don't expect miracles, though.
MerlinusCDXX
12-13-2008, 22:12
With Saka-Rauka, you want to go for Nomadism wherever you can, except for Baktra, Taksashila, and maybe 1 or 2 more towns (Arbela, I think). You won't get any type of civilized government unless you use an allied gov't. The cities I mentioned above are where you get your Indo-Greek units, which you need the Allied state for. The reason you want Nomadism is that most of your cheaper units (line HAs, riders, and light lancers) won't be recruitable with Pastoralism. The only units that the Saka get out of Pastoral settlements are expensive Nobles, Saka Bodyguard cavalry (cataphracts), and foot archers/light spearmen. Pastoralism is good in regions where you can't go nomad and (A) have good economies and are far from the front lines when you don't want to fund another Allied King or (B) offer a good foot archer unit under pastoral settlement recruitment line that isn't available elsewhere i.e. Media and Eymais (Ekbatana and Susa) with the Persian Heavy archers from the level 2 settlement bldg.
Pahlava is played as a Nomad nation abandoning the steppes and becoming Pastoralist, and the Saka are played as a Nomad nation with no incentive to change their lifestyle, other than adding a bit of civilized innovation to their armies. The Pahlava are re-ordering their society from within, but the Saka are only reordering the upper strata of their "dependent" states' societies.
Thank you all,that was really helpful, where might i find a history of what really happened to the saka? i searched on wiki and google but they only talked about them in eb terms.....
Plus i seem to have lost a site someone once gave me on learning how to mod, i was wondering if anyone could give me something similar, please.
If i wanted to change colors to a faction how do i do it?
If i want to change the stats of a unit how do i do it?
thx every one
Celtic_Punk
12-14-2008, 15:22
alright screw this Its time for this guy to try a nomad campaign
What!?!?!?!?!?
Are you talking about me? If so i think i made it pretty clear that i have............
Oh and would anyone mind answeing my questions? they've been up for quite some time.....
The history of the steppe people is hard to pin down since they did not leave records themselves. They also migrated, merged, split and changed names with great regularity, and since we have only fragmentary records of these event it's really hard to keep track of any single tribe. Still, you might find some information on the EB site (https://www.europabarbarorum.com/factions_saka_history.html).
As for modding, check the .Org (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=72) and TWC (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22) modding fora.
Unit stats can be modded in the EDU (export_descr_unit.txt) file. This file is usually stored in the R:TW\data folder, but if you have the trivial script installed, you want the EDU file in "R:TW\EB\sp game edu backup" (for single player) or "R:TW\EB\mp game edu backup" (for custom and MP battles) folders. Remember to make a back up before you change anything. I cannot answer your other question, but I suspect you can find the answer by searching the EB unofficial mod forum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=129).
i'd like to show yall some weird things i've noticed in my baktria and saka campaigns: the first is the description of the saka late bodyguard with the wrong skin (I think it's that of the peasant from rtw vanilla):
https://img213.imageshack.us/img213/6729/rometw2008121015352159zz6.th.png (https://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rometw2008121015352159zz6.png)
the second is an image of a baktrian general i didn't kill before destroying their last settlemant,he for some strange reason has gallic noble cavalry as bodyguard, why is that? isn't he allowed to keep his former bodyguard after his faction is destroyed? if not then should't he at least get one from the region he's in?
https://img117.imageshack.us/img117/6422/rometw2008121500063253cx4.th.png (https://img117.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rometw2008121500063253cx4.png)
The third is not really a weirdness but a curiosity, i've conquered every one of the settlements the faq sais i need to get the reforms, (except i'm not shure about taksashila as i can't find it, plus in the faq it sais or taksashila), i received the saka raforms "building" (becoming indo-saka) and held the settlements for 4 winters, but it still does not let me recruit the units, will it tell me when and if they happen?
https://img213.imageshack.us/img213/391/rometw2008121621383584fy8.th.png (https://img213.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rometw2008121621383584fy8.png)
Cullhwch
12-18-2008, 01:54
Gallic Brihentin are the only bodyguards in EB that are owned by the slave faction. That is why all FMs from dead factions revert to them. In previous versions, Carthaginian bodyguards fulfilled this role. In terms of raw settlement count (ie what percentage of the map belongs to which cultures), barbarian heavy cavalry probably make the most sense. The only other general unit that wouldn't look ridiculous most of the time would be the Greek Mercenary Generals.
dominique
12-18-2008, 14:31
I've started a Saka campaign and I have a problem:
For a reason or another, it looks like I'm unable to build allied governments. The option is unavailable either if I destroy the ancient government or if I try to build it on top of it.
If I destroy the ancient government (like I did in Baktria), I only have the indigenous settlement option, I can't build a military occupation...
So far I tried in Marakanda, Baktria and A-Ariana and it failed. :shame:
It looks like the right place to ask my own question, sorry for squatting...
MerlinusCDXX
12-18-2008, 18:54
You can only build Allied governments in regions that do not have Nomadism as an option i.e. no "nomad" or "mixed" hidden resource, here are maps showing nomad (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/4/23/f_nomad11m_9b26cba.png&srv=img26) and mixed (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/4/4/23/f_mixed11m_8531c36.png&srv=img26) hidden resource locations. Indigenous settlements is the name of the military occupation building for the Saka. If you build "Indigenous Settlements" anywhere that there is no nomad or mixed hidden resource, you will be able to build the Allied Gov't there next turn.
dominique
12-18-2008, 19:16
D'oh!
It works now.
:wall:
Ah EB; The only game that can still make you feel like a n00b after 2 years of playing. :yes:
MerlinusCDXX
12-18-2008, 21:34
No reason to feel like a n00b, some of the nomad stuff is pretty confusing if you're used to playing any other culture group. I myself wasted about 20 turns and thousands of m'nai because of the confusing build order for Pahlava reform requirements (destroying and rebuilding stuff from scratch because I got the order wrong).
I'm sorry, but it's been 2 days and nobody has told me at least about the saka reforms i cant get.
ok now it's 3 days.... please, i really need to know about the reforms, to take the indian settlements i need good infantry.
MerlinusCDXX
12-20-2008, 01:45
What problem exactly are you having with the reform? Is it that you haven't gotten them yet or that you aren't getting the units yet?
[QUOTE=Cyrus;2086427]
i've conquered every one of the settlements the faq sais i need to get the reforms, (except taksashila, 'cause in the faq it sais "or taksashila"), i received the saka raforms "building" (becoming indo-saka) and held the settlements for 4 winters, but it still does not let me recruit the units, will it tell me when and if they happen?
I suppose the answer is i'm getting neither,
MerlinusCDXX
12-20-2008, 03:23
You actually do have the reform. In order to get the infantry units from them, you have to build an Allied Gov't in Baktra (I don't think you get that option in A-Eschate or Marakanda because they have the "mixed hidden resource" and nomads can't build Allied states in areas with "mixed" or "nomad" resources present) and build up your Regional Barracks buildings, the first "unique units" should show up in level 3 of the Barracks. Other cities that give "reform" units are Kophen, Taksashila, Alexandropolis, and some towns WEST of Media, check the RV to see what you can get where. In any city you want Reform units, you must build an Allied Gov't to get access to the Hellenistic infantry, and you get no access to steppe units (not that big of a deal, because most of those units aren't accessible there).
oh man thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!! but why was that not not on the faq?
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