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frogbeastegg
12-06-2008, 15:44
The new Prince of Persia game is out. Naturally I got it on release day; I adore the series - the original was the first game I ever played! Sands of Time is one of very, very few games I have replayed since the PS2/gamecube/xbox era began.

I've made quite a bit of progress in the several hours I have played. I would say that I am liking it; I'd say I am disappointed. It's not threatening Sand's throne.

The Prince himself (thief, actually) is the best since the one in Sands. He's quite funny, and has plenty of quoteable lines. He's got loads of well-voiced dialogue, most of it situational. When you press the left triggfer he will chat with Elika or, if you have exhausted the current conversation offerings, make a comment to himself. The banter between the Prince and Elika is very well written. Indeed, Elika marks a return - at long last! - to the highs of Farah. She's a decent female character, a person in her own right, with motivations and brains. She's not eye candy, and she's not there to coo at the Prince. With the exception of cutscenes all of their dialogue is optional, so players can choose whether they want to watch the duo play I spy in the middle of a death trap.

There's a great injoke for fans of the series. At the start the Prince is stumbling around in the desert searching for Farah. Wait until you find out who Farah is. :laugh4:

The world is beautiful. I find it hard to like. Unlike most of the previous games, the world is not a single coherant location. It's not one palace put together in a semi-logical way, believable as a real place. It's got hovering half-pipes and upside down flying shipwrecks. It's made to be interesting to traverse, and I find that works against it. It's too surreal, too obviously fake.

The new PoP is famous for two design decisions. The Elika rescue, and the reduced controls. I find ones works nicely, the other hurts the game.

Elika stops the Prince from dying. This does not mean you cannot fail, as some have assumed. It means that when you fail you get put back just before the point where you died. In platforming this means the last solid peice of ground, in combat it means you get back on your feet. It's not a free pass. In combat your enemy will recover some health, in platforming you will have to repeat any sections which lay between the solid ground and the part where you died. It's a natural evolution of the rewind function of the sands of time.

The reduced controls are the issue. First let me say that I liked Assassin's Creed very much, and part of that liking was due to its reduced control scheme. I liked holding down a single button and aiming Altair at where I wanted to go, and leaving the game to handle the jumping, scambling and climbing as necessary. I always felt in control. I always felt graceful and athletic. I always knew what Altair would do in a situation.

In PoP I don't feel any of those three vital things. I don't feel in control. I don't trust the Prince. I feel like a clumsy clod footed oaf. That's the problem. When it all works the Prince will bound and leap through some amazing looking acrobatics with a press or two of a button. When it doesn't you'll end up jumping off into oblivion, or missing a vital grab. Some of the assignments go against the training all other games give players. Others aren't fully logical. Some must be performed in a narrow window of time without any prompt. Take this example. You want to jump up from some vines you have climbed to reach the ledge above. You press A. You want to jump up from a ring you are hanging on to reach the next ledge. You press ... B. Why the difference? You're jumping up. It should be the same. You can hang on those vines for hours. You will fall off the ring unless you hit B within several seconds. Why the difference? They are essentially reskins of the same situation.

There are situations where you think you should press a button and don't need to. Wall running is bad for this. Pressing and holding A initiates a wall run. Releasing and tapping A makes you jump off. There are points where it looks like you need to press and hold A a second time to initiate a new wall run. It's decpetive layout; you end up jumping off into thin air. Later on you will encounter a similar section and not bother pressing A because last time it got you killed. Except this time you did need to initiate a second wall run, and so you fall to your death.

What's more there are commands which are unclear. Do I need to mash Y to use plates, or is tapping it at the precise point in the animation enough? Do I need to hold B to wall run off a ring, or is tapping it ok? It's quite ridiculous; I've cleared 8 worlds and I still don't feel confident in these basic moves.

The lack of control pitfall is always present, including (especially?) when the system is working. You're still doing very little to influence what is happening. So much of it is automatic or canned. The Prince will do what looks like 7 or 8 different moves, and your involvement was limited to pressing A 3 times.

The Prince does not feel fluid and agile. He's a bit ... heavy, for wont of a better description.

As for combat, I've no idea. None. Zip. Each button is tied to a specific kind of attack. Hit that button for that kind of attack, and try to chain attacks together to do more damage. Sounds straight forward. The problem is that most of the time the basic sword gets blocked, the gauntlet has zero range, and the combos are totally unpredictable. I hit buttons and have no idea what to expect. There's canned animation in most of the combos, some of them are little more than mini-cutscenes. If I ask for 2 sword attacks followed up by a magic attack then that's what I expect to see, not a sword attack followed by a jump, followed by a wrestling match, followed by Elika doing nothing. I can ask the Prince to boost an enemy into the air and smack him off the ledge, only to watch him slash the enemy with his sword and get blocked, and thumped by a counter attack. More than once I have ended up pinning an enemy to a wall and insta-killing them, and I've no idea how or why, because I was doing the same old x,x,x, y,y,y button mash I now rely on. I don't feel like I am controlling what is happening at all and I hate it.

The good news is that combat has been reined in. There's much less of it. So far there's perhaps 3 battles per world, including the boss. That's mostly good news, as I found Warrior Within and Two Thrones had gone too combat heavy. It's even better news given how much I hate combat in this one. At the same time that is a touch shocking; while previously I felt there was too much fighting, I usually enjoyed it. The sword fighting was the thing which attracted me to the DOS game in the first place.



That all sounds terribly negative. The game is worth playing, and I don't regret buying it. The Prince and Elika are delightful; I progress to hear what they have to say. It's fairly apparant that Ubisoft were aiming for the aspect they nailed dead on in Sands and then lost in the two sequels: the fairytale feel, the story, the characters you didn't want to hurl into a pool of acid, the adventure. They have hit that aspect again, but sadly slipped on gameplay.



"Run, jump, die. Run, jump, die. Run, jump, die - I think I'm getting the hang of this!" - the Prince, random comment.

"Is there anything else you want to tell me?" - the Prince.
"You are an idiot." - Elika.

"You're getting pretty good at saving me, princess." - the Prince, random comment.
"I have had a lot of practice." - Elika.

"Gold cups. Gold plates. Gold gold ..." - the Prince, dreaming idly between near death experiences.

"Princess, he's a dark god. How good do you think you look?" - the Prince, in response to Elika asking him if he was helping her purely because she is a pretty damsel in distress.

I've forgotten so many of the best lines. ~:(

seireikhaan
12-06-2008, 16:38
Is this game available for PC? If so, what's the full title again? I can never remember the bugger's name. Plus, the fact that its now out sorta snuck on me.

Husar
12-06-2008, 17:25
Heh, I saw a pretty bad review on a german site that also said it's pretty annoying to get to the end of a level and find out you're missing some item so you have to search through the whole level to find it, considering you like freeroaming and exploring I guess that never bothered you.
They also critisize that you have pretty much seen everything after the tutorial, that there isn't much flesh to it, the story is too simple and generally you just sort of click yourself through a bunch of levels, a bit like assassin's creed where the general way to get through a mission was always the same, or Far Cry 2, where it's rather similar. I liked the latter two enough since they had somewhat interesting settings etc but I've never played a PoP game so that new one doen't sound appealing to me at all.
I've thought about looking into the series now and then but I guess I'd just be bored a lot.

I find it a bit sad that Ubisoft is churning out games lately that sound very promising but end up with really shallow gameplay that is way too simplified.

frogbeastegg
12-07-2008, 12:37
The game's full title is ... Prince of Persia. Not the smartest move, since there are already more than 6 PoP games, including one with exactly the same name.

The PC version is out a bit later than the console ones. Europe gets it on 12/12/08, the US on 9/12/08.


a pretty bad review on a german site that also said it's pretty annoying to get to the end of a level and find out you're missing some item so you have to search through the whole level to find it,
I haven't needed any items so far, and the levels are very linear. It's literally a case of calling up the compass to see which way is the entrance into the area you want, then jumping and running along a very obvious path to get to the patch of fertile ground at the end. Kill a boss, hammer Y to restore the ground, set the compass up for the next area you want, and repeat.


I've thought about looking into the series now and then but I guess I'd just be bored a lot
You will now go and buy Prince of Persia: Sands of Time. You will not walk to the shops; you will run and you will run at full speed. There are a lot of people here who regard Sands very highly; it makes it into my own personal top 10 games. As I said earlier, it's one of a very, very few games in the last decade I have played more than once. It was a critical smash, a game which was outstanding in its day and is still impressive today. There's nothing else quite like it. Sands did a single thing wrong: it failed to sell. Hence the sequels which keep losing track of what was great about Sands. Sands is not much like the PoP I described above; it does not play itself!

Ubisoft do make me sad. The year Sands came out they also released Beyond Good and Evil, another lovingly made different game with sky high reviews and dire sales. They were the creative force of that christmas, a company to take note of and hold hope in. Since then they have been ebbing and sputtering as a creative force. They do put out games which attempt somehting new, such as Assassin's Creed and this new PoP, but they always seem to miss something simple which keeps the game from breaking into awesome. As a company they are better known for the run of the mill games they put out, games which must fund the more creative efforts.

Or, a touch soul crushingly, they put out something a bit different and everyone looks at the label and dismisses it as the same old. Endwar is currently suffering that fate. It's an RTS with voice commands which work, and work so well the player is left wondering why no one else has done it. It's got a few other differences to ye standard RTS, and it's got the "Oops, we overlooked something very simple" Ubisoft factor. It's got Tom Clancy's name on the box, ergo it's a lame shooter or something, ergo it doesn't sell.

Worst of all is the way their marketing people are presently determined to single-handedly kill the company with their dodgy review 'management' :wall:

Husar
12-07-2008, 13:42
Sands of time, if it isn't in my gold games compilation(that has starforce, but then so does clear sky and I have that installed...) it may be in some magazine, I might consider it, perhaps.

I've been using voice commands before, they are generally an overlooked feature but they also cause problems. You cannot use them all the time because you will actually make noise even when using a headset, apart from the annoyance factor, your family might start to think you're a stupid wannabe cyborg. And you need a headset, while they are not expensive for PCs it seems hard enough to make people buy them for amazing things like voice chat(though people do like to pay twice the price for the games themselves... :wall: ), for my PS3, which would run EndWar better than my PC, I'd have to buy a bluetooth thingie and they're rather expensive and not even stereo usually so I decided not to try the demo. I also didn't find the setting very attractive. :shrug:

frogbeastegg
12-07-2008, 19:46
Question: If you die frequently and struggle with the controls in the 'simple' and 'friendly' game, but have no problems in the 'standard' game does this make you:
a)Too stupid?
or
b)Too smart?

My progress resembles some kind of death orgy. I'm somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 done and I have died more times in this than I did in the entirety of the previous trilogy. That's if you look at acrobatics alone. If you add in PoP combat deaths then it's a total massacre! So I'm trying to decide, does this mean I'm too good for the easiest and most user friendly Prince of Persia game, or have I suffered brain damage somewhere along the line? :sweatdrop:

Now I'm in the midgame the difficulty has increased, and I'm no further along in harmonising with these 'easy' controls so my skill has not matched the progression. The fights are a complete mess; I just get smacked around until I manage to fluke my way into one of the insta-win animations. On the platforming side of things, the increased pressure and demand for timing while traversing the corrupted lands has caused a leap in deaths due to unwanted moves. Once an area is tamed it's possible to be more relaxed, and the deaths drop to a mere one every couple of minutes.

On the positive side the plot confirmed something I suspected, and I'm eager to see how they carry it along. If it weren't for the plot and the banter between the Prince and Elika I would be sorely tempted to put the game aside and come back later ... which typically means never.



"This place isn't the be all and end all of civilisation, princess! :pause: Oh, well, I guess it could be the end all." - the Prince, from an argument about how advanced Elika's homeland is.

"I'm famous - I'm a legend, even! I'll live forever in stories and people's memories! That's immortality! :lowers sword, partly covers his face: Oh, that sounded so much cooler when I just thought it. Spoken it sounds incredibly dumb." - the Prince, in reply to the Alchemist's boast that he's immortal thanks to the evil god.

"I'm really starting to feel all of this in my shoulders. I don't suppose you could give me a shoulder massage?" - the Prince.
"You're right - I couldn't." - Elika.



I've been using voice commands before
Really? Which strategy games use them? It's something I have a very distant fascination with. The idea of sitting back with a cup of tea, saying, "Archers, target group 3. Cavalry hold position." and having it work it 2 parts appealing to 1 part embarrassing should anyone interrupt my game. Endwar is the first I know of which implements that kind of setup, and has it work.

Husar
12-07-2008, 22:17
Really? Which strategy games use them? It's something I have a very distant fascination with. The idea of sitting back with a cup of tea, saying, "Archers, target group 3. Cavalry hold position." and having it work it 2 parts appealing to 1 part embarrassing should anyone interrupt my game. Endwar is the first I know of which implements that kind of setup, and has it work.

Heh, not like that, for one, Windows Vista comes with voice commands included but before I had some tool that required some XP plugins but then allowed you to turn voice commands into keyboard commands, basically the program would recognize your voice commands and then turn them into key commands for your game, you could also chain several keys. The voice commands you could edit to your liking, add new ones etc etc.
I used this for flightsims and Operation Flashpoint sometimes, it was nothing included in the games already.

Well, after some searching I actually found the tool again, it's called Shoot (http://clans.gameclubcentral.com/shoot/) and it's free but apparently hasn't been updated for quite a while. Since one can crate own profiles and commands, that should not be a huge problem though I guess.

CrossLOPER
12-10-2008, 16:23
The game's full title is ... Prince of Persia. Not the smartest move, since there are already more than 6 PoP games, including one with exactly the same name.
I feel sorry for any future fans that are forced to backtrack through the titles. I realize that a fresh start is nice and all, but I would prefer that they added a little subtitle to signify a different sub series.

JR-
12-13-2008, 13:49
The retail version of the new PoP games has no DRM:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20081212-pc-prince-of-persia-contains-no-drm-its-a-trap.html

Dear Ubisoft, you have just made yourself a sale!

CrossLOPER
12-14-2008, 19:00
frog, does the game have limited installs?

frogbeastegg
12-14-2008, 19:34
I have the xbox 360 version.

If the PC version has no DRM then it can't have limited installs, as that is a form of DRM.

CrossLOPER
12-15-2008, 02:43
Yeah, I went to the store ready to get it. I look on the box and there is that little message in the yellow box saying that there is something on the DVD that may conflict with my drives. Sorry, but no.

frogbeastegg
12-21-2008, 15:21
A Prince of Persia review (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/12/15/wot-i-think-prince-of-persia/) tempted me into one of my occasional looks at rock, paper shotgun. That review, plus most of the comments that follow, is pretty much spot on for how I feel about the game.

The comments on that review also supplied an answer to the DRM/PC game box conundrum. It appears the decision to drop DRM was made very late in the day, after the boxes were printed. Rather than spend money editing the boxes Ubisoft left them alone.

Boyar Son
12-23-2008, 04:13
this game is cool, cant wait to play it. also sands ov time is like the best PoP