View Full Version : Battlefield withdrawls
Celtic_Punk
12-07-2008, 01:43
Who does this? I for one have done this only once, and that was in vanilla. I never turn tail and run.
So I'd like to know this. If you withdraw do you lose any men that dont die on the battlefield?
Personally I'm a shady character when it comes to feigning routs. sometimes when outnumbered I'll pull most of my men back about 100-200m keep one unit to basically act as a suicidal rear guard, as they get surrounded i will set up an ambush. sure it wont surprise them, but it can give you the chance you need to catch them disorganized and gut them with your outnumbered forces by flanking.
MerlinusCDXX
12-07-2008, 02:28
I play a lot of Nomad campaigns, so I do this quite a bit. And no, you don't lose any troops not killed in battle.
Depends on the faction.
With nomads, I flee all the time. If I'm heavily outnumbered by heavy infantry/cavalry (which is often) I'll just unload all my arrows and have my FMs rock the enemy general then run away. Attack them next turn and clean up. Otherwise, not much. If I'm about to lose a very valuable general or know I have less than a snowball's chance in hell of winning I'll usually skirmish a bit to pick off some weak units then run.
When you flee you don't lose extra men, your casualties just don't heal. Also if you flee too much your generals can get bad traits.
Celtic_Punk
12-07-2008, 05:02
I've lost a few generals because I didn't withdraw. But the fact is. I play as KH... if you withdraw your FM is gunna get run down by cavalry.
Also... KH have the tendency to pull something out of nothing. I've won a battle where i was outnumbered about 15 or 20 to 1 and in the end it was 10 guys duking it out over thousands of bodies. My General 2 spartans and a massalian hoplite vs a handful of makedonians who were more experienced than me. We won
When do you decide that its time to book it? instead of standing and taking the heat.
If I start losing and its clear that sticking around will just get me killed, I practice the better part of valor and run away.
I use the Team Rocket motto: He who fights and runs away will live to fight another day. :yes:
I generally withdraw a general when it's down to three or so guys in the unit and I have spears rushing me :sweatdrop:
Knowing when to withdraw is a skill that will aid all players in their quest to be the very best, like no one ever was.
Battle every day, and you will claim your rightful place as faction leader of the world. You know that it's always been your dream.
It's your fault, Yyrkoon.
Decimus Attius Arbiter
12-07-2008, 09:27
I only withdraw when using horse archers and when it's obvious from the start that I've made a very big mistake. Like this one time as Getai I tried to assault that town with all the cordinau orcas, druids, and naked fanatics.
pirates_say_arrgg
12-07-2008, 09:33
Withdrawing is sort of hard if not done at the right moment, to me.
I try to withdraw my armies only when that historical general did it. In my new Hannibal AAR, (Which will come here within this month hopefully) the pitched battles were usually only fought till one of the armies withdrew, not until one was destroyed.... unless Hannibal had his way, like if the Roman commander was Fulvius, Flaminius, Varro, Sempronius and Minucius, just to name a few.
But to go on, sometimes I have to sacrifice a unit of my Italian allies to retreat and save my army to fight yet another day or in order to find a better position in which I can have a better position.
Or if you don't what to sacrifice a unit, try using your cavalry to charge the front lines and let your infantry get a good distance back and before you lose to many cavalrymen, and then pull them back and retreat in good order. In good order means try to retreat in something that resembles a battle formation just in case you need to turn around and fight. Retreating in good order allows you to be able to reinforce your retreating troops too, if they were caught by the enemy. Slingers/archers can make for a good covering force, since they have a long range and are quicker than most infantry.
Actually, I've been wondering this forever. I always seem to lose men when I withdraw, at least according to the battle stats screen. Do I actually lose men?
(My computer has been out of commission for over a month now, so there's no testing this here.)
If you "withdraw" by quitting the battle, you lose men. If you withdraw all your units out of the battlefield, they're all good.
I've lost a few generals because I didn't withdraw. But the fact is. I play as KH... if you withdraw your FM is gunna get run down by cavalry.
Also... KH have the tendency to pull something out of nothing. I've won a battle where i was outnumbered about 15 or 20 to 1 and in the end it was 10 guys duking it out over thousands of bodies. My General 2 spartans and a massalian hoplite vs a handful of makedonians who were more experienced than me. We won
When do you decide that its time to book it? instead of standing and taking the heat.
i fully agree, Hellens don't retreat. either they could still win or give the enemy a phyrric victory or they all get killed in the attempt of fleeing :(
tho I do make a strategic withdrawl sometimes, but mostly if i knew before, that i won't be able to do much more damage or even win. (like when i engage spearmen with mounted skirmishers or a elite fullstack of AS with HA)
ps and the second worst faction to retreat with are sweboz(imo)
I very rarely withdraw. One of the only times I have was when in my Pontos campaign I happened to spot Antiochus II of Seleuceia just strolling through my lands without any other units. I sent three or four units (including an FM) to kill him. Unfortunately, when I attacked him, a second, larger army appeared out of nowhere. So I went in, killed Antiochus and then withdrew to avoid the other army.
Beefy187
12-08-2008, 02:50
As I am playing Phalahva atm I retreat almost every single battle as I am often out numbered by the Seleucid. Retreating is good with Nomads :yes:
Celtic_Punk
12-08-2008, 04:58
almost every single battle lol... clowns n cowards, thats what the nomads are!
Beefy187
12-08-2008, 06:00
almost every single battle lol... clowns n cowards, thats what the nomads are!
Its called playing smart... Hey, hey who almost conquered the entire Europe? Mongols (Nomads)
Who pretty much wrecked the Persian empire? Scythians.. Nomads
Who will win if there is 3 units of barbarian spearmen and 3 units of Parthian horse archers? Parthians!
Celtic_Punk
12-08-2008, 06:54
lol Mongols didnt take all of europe... a decent sized chunk of eastern europe. but that was it. You also gotta know the persian empire was done in by Alexander. Parthian thats a different story (which I do not know the end to funnilly enough)
nuff of this tho...
Nomads need to withdraw because they rely on bows and other missiles. I'd say withdrawl can lead to momentum given to the enemy. Which hurts you in the long run. Giving them a Pyhrric victory is a victory for you.
Olaf Blackeyes
12-08-2008, 06:55
If u make a bad mistake withdrawing is a GOOD idea, and no u dont lose any of teh menz da got awayz
Gleemonex
12-08-2008, 07:52
Its called playing smart... Hey, hey who almost conquered the entire Europe? Mongols (Nomads)
Who pretty much wrecked the Persian empire? Scythians.. Nomads
Who will win if there is 3 units of barbarian spearmen and 3 units of Parthian horse archers? Parthians!
That's only the half of it -- disregarding the fact that nomads had their fare share of defeats throughout history.
What do you do when you want to claim nomad territory? Siege a meadow? Having no home is the simplest way to not have one's home ransacked or appropriated.
-Glee
I do this only when it's somewhat possible, Actually had to do this the other night. I was at the end of my valley campaign in Pontos with my Caesar and I had two full stack legions left out of four, they where down to their last stack but it was a dam giant with their vets and they where on good position on a hill and wouldn't move for about two or three turns. No matter where I moved and positioned my armies they wouldn't come down and I was losing time. I had spies further out and they had some reinforcements coming in about two turns away, they weren't strong but they are what they are more troops.
So I had to suck it up I ran out of time, I had to go for the up hill battle. I went head on their was no way to maneuver around. My vets held the line for some time well my skirmishers threw everything the had at them but it got to that point where I had tried everything I could. Multiple calv charges I was down to about fifteen horses and about five bodyguards.
As general I had a decision ether let my army fight it out and knowingly lose all my men or withdraw my troop and regroup for another fight. I had enough skirmishers to form up a line behind my main line still fighting Then one by one I pulled my men back behind my skirmishers. It was a good thing these where my vets cause even some of them with only fifteen or twenty men left they didn't rout they fell back in good order. From then it was the skirmishers who took the brunt, good thing it wasn't that bad thank god cause I had moved the line far enough back that their army started falling back as well to reform their lines. After my vets reformed their lines I pulled my skirmishers back behind them, by then our lines where back to their starting points them on the hill and me at the base..
Their was still about twenty min or so left but I tallied up the damage done and even tho it was bad on my side it managed to be a 50 -50 battle we each lost about 850 men. I knew that if I where to withdraw I would still have a full stack armie to march up the hill again and Ponts would be down more then half a stack, and their reinforcements where still a at least two turns away. So I pulled back to let the next general take the victory, I knew it would go up as a loss on the chart but it was a good loss how I looked at it. Plus it fills good bringing some men back home that shouldn't have died up their.
Zradha Pahlavan
12-08-2008, 20:40
I freqeuntly use horse archers and yet I don't do much withdrawing. When my troops run out of arrows, I simply have then scatter across the battlefield. This often allows me to easily exploit enemy flanks or isolate single enemy groups. If the enemy has cavalry or archers, I attempt to destroy them with my general's unit. If that can be done, I attack infantry groups individually, and try to swarm them with horsemen, with the general leading the charge. If the enemy unit is sufficiently seperated from support, and if their general is taking a dirt nap, the unit may rout. If it does not, pull back and try again until they rout. Repeat with other units.
Of course, some troops are either difficult to fight or do not run away. These men are usually fought last, or avoided. Medium and light phalanxes are easily taken care of through a fake charge by horse archers follwed up by a flank attack by the general's unit, but elite phalangites and other heavy infantrymen are impervious to any melee attack by cavalry, so I save my arrows especially for them.
If all that doesn't work, then I withdraw.
no-one else suffered the ignominy of withdrawing your intact army from a field battle only to have it disappear off the strategic map then ??... now that is annoying....
cheers,
Pobs
Pobs, you must have performed a vertical insertion of your platoon into the enemy compound without providing an extraction point upon mission completion.
MerlinusCDXX
12-09-2008, 09:03
Pobs, make sure your boys can run back to your boats if things get hairy, that should keep them from being completely lost. It's a good idea to leave a rear guard to keep an enemy stack from blocking the path to your landing craft.
Celtic_Punk
12-09-2008, 11:00
Think of it like this... Dunkirk without boats.
Cambyses
12-09-2008, 16:51
One thing to watch for is that once your general has withdrawn other units may then rout. If you have only routing units left, rather than just troops withdrawing, then my experience indicates some of these men may be lost.
On the subject of withdrawing nomads, in real history they were known to lead an ongoing "fake" retreat for several days before turning on their unfortunate enemies.
HunGeneral
12-09-2008, 19:09
clowns n cowards, thats what the nomads are!
Knowing when to retreat and when to fight is something only great commanders can decide.
Nomads are often held for weaklings but thoose who mess with them rarely have a chance to tell about it..
Who was the first to effectively resist the Invasion of the Persian Empire (under Darius the great)? -The Scythians.
Who had defeated the romans at Carhae? - The Parthians.
Who was almost able to bring the western Roman empire to it's knees and had a great Influence on the early medieval History of Europe? - The Huns under Great King Attila.
Who had been "raiding" over all of Europe without anyone who was able to oppose them (all the way to the Iberian Peninsula) - mostly on demand of Western Kings - The Ancient Hungarians.
Who had created the greatest unified Empire the World has ever seen? - Genghis Khan
Who had conquered most of Eurasia and almost a large part of Europe (they only turned back because of inner political reasons - they were not defeated) - The Mongols.
Who were able to defeat armies wich outnumbered them 5:1 or even 10:1 - The Nomads.
Even in Rome you have good chances of defeating armies 10 times your number with Nomad armies.
I'm sure it can be done in EB aswell.
Fleeing only really needs to be done as eastern horse archer heavy armies, and then only really needs to be done early on when money is tight and losing a unit can lose you the game.
For example, in my current game as Pahlava i only have one decent family member with a lot of stars and a big bodyguard. I did have two but one of them got killed by a freak slingshot volley that killed only the general in the unit half way through the battle. After he died all i had left were light horse archers, unarmoured, and who had expended all their arrows. I tried hitting tired units of Thureophoroi and heavy skirmishers from the front and rear but they kept routing my units since my general had died, so i withdrew. No other choice.
Now, I'm having trouble replacing the general because all i have are good governors but no good leaders, so I've been using dirty tactics to keep the Seleukids in that area at bay until i can replace him. Enter battle, fire all arrows, wipe out what you can, disappear. Repeat again and again or until the opportunity arises to destroy the entire army.
Shoot and flee is also a valid tactic to use as horse archer factions. Send a small army into enemy territory, harrass their forces and retreat. It's fun, and it gets the job done.
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