Greek Riots

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Opinions on the riots in Athens and other parts of the nation?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7770086.stm

The violence and looting isn't really justified. From what I heard of an English student studying in Athens, it seems the "anarchists" have found a topic to cause trouble.

I wonder why riot police are not armed with guns with rubber bullets or something. Around 33 wounded police officers? From the videos it didn't look like they did much to stop the riots.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Classic Lose-lose dilemma for the controlling authority.

Restrict your forces to non-lethal responses and passive "shepherd" tactics and every once in a while the crowd will feel its oats, ignore the discomfort of tear gas and cry havoc. You then look like idiots while they destroy portions of the town.

Allow your forcs to use lethal force and you end the riots but have massacred your own citizens. Almost invariably those massacred will be "members of the crowd" and none of the real fomenters will get whacked -- but they'll lead the outcry against your barbarism.

[CountArach]

Allow your forcs to use lethal force and you end the riots but have massacred your own citizens. Almost invariably those massacred will be "members of the crowd" and none of the real fomenters will get whacked -- but they'll lead the outcry against your barbarism.
The problem is that that line of thought is how it started:
"They passed close to where 15-year-old Andreas Grigoropoulos was shot dead on Saturday. One banner called the police "murderers".

One protester told the BBC he had been greatly angered by the actions of the police.

"It's not the first time. They always kill people - immigrants, innocent people - and without any excuse," he said. "They murdered him in cold blood." "

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Unless the slain youngling is the scion of one of the local "elite," there is ALWAYS someone who'll blame the cops and call them murderers.

Not all cops are paladins, and they certainly are human enough to make mistakes -- but there is always a group of malcontents who will pillory them, regardless of the facts.

I am, therefore, always skeptical of cries of "police brutality." For me, the fact that an inquiry is in progress and the officers off duty is appropriate -- but then again I'm not looking for an excuse for mayhem.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I am, therefore, always skeptical of cries of "police brutality."

This, and especially when anarchists are doing the crying.

[CountArach]

Unless the slain youngling is the scion of one of the local "elite," there is ALWAYS someone who'll blame the cops and call them murderers.

Not all cops are paladins, and they certainly are human enough to make mistakes -- but there is always a group of malcontents who will pillory them, regardless of the facts.

I am, therefore, always skeptical of cries of "police brutality." For me, the fact that an inquiry is in progress and the officers off duty is appropriate -- but then again I'm not looking for an excuse for mayhem.
I understand where you are coming from - I'm just explaining why having heavily armed police is a bad idea - it gives the mob a reason to riot. If they have that reason then the Government is doing something wrong.

[Fragony]

The problem is that that line of thought is how it started:
"They passed close to where 15-year-old Andreas Grigoropoulos was shot dead on Saturday. One banner called the police "murderers".

One protester told the BBC he had been greatly angered by the actions of the police.

"It's not the first time. They always kill people - immigrants, innocent people - and without any excuse," he said. "They murdered him in cold blood." "

Ever talked to an anarchist?

[CountArach]

Ever talked to an anarchist?
Yes, why do you ask?

[Fragony]

Yes, why do you ask?

Well that's how these clowns talk. That's why.

[lars573]

My borther has disturbingly anarchist leanings. I can imagine him saying stuff like that. Makes me want to go upside his head like we're 7 and 5 again. :clown:

[Fragony]

Don't hold back, nothing more annoying then the high moral ground of anti-fascist fascists.

[KukriKhan]

In the case of Greece, we hafta look at their recent (well OK, 'recent' to me, age 58) history. It's not that long ago that the Colonel's in the military junta employed quite aggressive (the opposition says 'brutal') repression techniques on dissenters. As a result, the following democratic gov't institutionalized "safe haven" laws for uni's and churches - those campuses are no-go areas for police now - making them cauldrons of disaffection.

Good points made above re: police use of force and tactics. I assert tho', that those measures, while applicable to US/UK/W. Euro these days, are foreign to the folks in Athens who's memories are long. I predict the police there will just let the rampage die down of it's own accord, without much anti-riot interference, then just quietly compensate property owners who've been harmed.

-edit-
I liken it, somewhat, to the US period after May 1970's Kent State "massacre". That incident polarized the country even moreso than it had been. Within a few years, protests were attended by non-bayonetted, non-live-ammo, passive resistence police forces.

[Hosakawa Tito]

In the case of Greece, we hafta look at their recent (well OK, 'recent' to me, age 58) history. It's not that long ago that the Colonel's in the military junta employed quite aggressive (the opposition says 'brutal') repression techniques on dissenters. As a result, the following democratic gov't institutionalized "safe haven" laws for uni's and churches - those campuses are no-go areas for police now - making them cauldrons of disaffection.

Good points made above re: police use of force and tactics. I assert tho', that those measures, while applicable to US/UK/W. Euro these days, are foreign to the folks in Athens who's memories are long. I predict the police there will just let the rampage die down of it's own accord, without much anti-riot interference, then just quietly compensate property owners who've been harmed.

-edit-
I liken it, somewhat, to the US period after May 1970's Kent State "massacre". That incident polarized the country even moreso than it had been. Within a few years, protests were attended by non-bayonetted, non-live-ammo, passive resistence police forces.

Till I read this article I didn't realize these anarchists/rioters/criminals were allowed asylum. A safe base to prepare/stockpile bombs & weapons/launch attacks from...that's insanity. That's teaching people that impudence is a right, illegality is freedom, rudeness is equality, anarchy is happiness. The rioters are killing/injuring/ruining the livelyhoods of innocent people. Send in the Spartans and arrest/try/imprison the worst ones and make the others rebuild/make reparations/perform community services to the innocent bystanders/shopowners etc. that lost businesses and homes.

[Meneldil]

Being somewhat anarchist-leaning myself, I have absolutely no respect for people who destroy blindly the property and lives of their neighbours.

But then I laugh at the people who think anarchism = terrorism.

[CountArach]

Being somewhat anarchist-leaning myself, I have absolutely no respect for people who destroy blindly the property and lives of their neighbours.

But then I laugh at the people who think anarchism = terrorism.
Yeah, sadly few people realise there is a difference between Anarchy and Anarchism.

[Ice]

But then I laugh at the people who think anarchism = terrorism.

That's not exactly hard to thinkif you aren't aware of what anarchism stands for. These idiots aren't helping, btw.

[seireikhaan]

See? This is proof positive. Exactly why you CANNOT restrict people's access to armaments in any way, shape, or form. As we can see here, there is not a single negative to doing so regardless of the country's social landscape.

yes, I just went there. :clown:

[CountArach]

See? This is proof positive. Exactly why you CANNOT restrict people's access to armaments in any way, shape, or form. As we can see here, there is not a single negative to doing so regardless of the country's social landscape.

yes, I just went there. :clown:
Have fun... prepare to be flamed...
for your completely sensible and true comment

[Fragony]

But then I laugh at the people who think anarchism = terrorism.

Not really, just an excuse for bored rich kids to wreak some havoc.

[HoreTore]

Well, if it gives something close to the results of the 1973 riots, I say burn away.

[Fragony]

Greek government willingly waxes it's butt and bends over to take it hard deep and unsafe, cop got arrested. Idiots.

[HoreTore]

Greek government willingly waxes it's butt and bends over to take it hard deep and unsafe, cop got arrested. Idiots.

You do know that the greek government is rather corrupt and their police force brutal, right?

[Fragony]

You do know that the greek government is rather corrupt and their police force brutal, right?

Give in for money, give in a for quiet night, both are the self-centered choice; you just could have been doing your job.

[Husar]

It's always the same, anarchism is not about anarchy, satanism not about satan, terrorism is not about terrorising, management not about managing, government is not about governing and chairs are not about sitting on them. *sigh* :no:

[HoreTore]

Give in for money, give in a for quiet night, both are the self-centered choice; you just could have been doing your job.

Same goes for the politicians and police, eh? They could've been doing their jobs instead of lining their pockets or beating up random people.... Alas, they do not...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

It's always the same, anarchism is not about anarchy, satanism not about satan, terrorism is not about terrorising, management not about managing, government is not about governing and chairs are not about sitting on them. *sigh* :no:

Correct, at least on the government one. ~;)

[Fragony]

Same goes for the politicians and police, eh? They could've been doing their jobs instead of lining their pockets or beating up random people.... Alas, they do not...

According to the anarchists. They say the exact same things here in fuzzywuzzytstan, shouldn't be taken seriously just rebels without a cause, I say give them one for all the lives they have destroyed the past days, nice to have your shop burned down by bored rich kids.

[HoreTore]

According to the anarchists. They say the exact same things here in fuzzywuzzytstan, shouldn't be taken seriously just rebels without a cause, I say give them one for all the lives they have destroyed the past days, nice to have your shop burned down by bored rich kids.

....According to quite a lot of people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#CPI_Ranking_.282002.E2.80.932007.29

51 Lithuania 4.8 4.8 4.8 4.6 4.7 4.8
51 Jordan 4.7 5.3 5.7 5.3 4.6 4.5
53 Mauritius 4.7 5.1 4.2 4.1 4.4 4.5
53 Oman 4.7 5.4 6.3 6.1 6.3
56 Greece 4.6 4.4 4.3 4.3 4.3 4.2
57 Namibia 4.5 4.1 4.3 4.1 4.7 5.7
60 Kuwait 4.3 4.8 4.7 4.6 5.3
61 Cuba 4.2 3.5 3.8 3.7 4.6
61 Poland 4.2 3.7 3.4 3.5 3.6 4.0

Greece are ranked together with such functioning states like Lithunaia, Jordan, Oman, Cuba and Poland. You even find a bunch of dictatorships less corrupt than Greece. That's the corruption index by Transparency International. Are they anarchists too? :inquisitive:

[Fragony]

Greece are ranked together with such functioning states like Lithunaia, Jordan, Oman, Cuba and Poland. You even find a bunch of dictatorships less corrupt than Greece. That's the corruption index by Transparency International. Are they anarchists too? :inquisitive:

What does that have to do with bored rich kids burning stores? If Greece was the least corrupt country the anarchists wouldn't act any different :inquisitive:

[CountArach]

What does that have to do with bored rich kids burning stores? If Greece was the least corrupt country the anarchists wouldn't act any different :inquisitive:
Can you be sure these are "rich kids"?

How many of the countries higher than Greece have had Anarchists rioting in the streets?

[Fragony]

Can you be sure these are "rich kids"?

Anarchists are without exception from well off families, and how else could they find the time to burn shops instead of having to work in one in a country as poor and corrupt as Greece? Clue, university, students, costs money

How many of the countries higher than Greece have had Anarchists rioting in the streets?

You have got to be kidding me

[Prince Cobra]

Anarchists are without exception from well off families, and how else could they find the time to burn shops instead of having to work in one in a country as poor and corrupt as Greece? Clue, university, students, costs money

How many of the countries higher than Greece have had Anarchists rioting in the streets?

You have got to be kidding me

France experienced something similiar.


I have mixed feelings about the chaos on the streets, though.

[Husar]

So hating the government makes it right to burn private property now? :inquisitive:
So maybe when Fragony gets too many warning points, the moderators should ban HoreTore in protest?

[Fragony]

France experienced something similiar.

Yeah, they wanted all non-communist teachers fired had an educational misunderstanding

[Fragony]

Ah, well that should keep him warm, good thing we have activists Greek police can be quite brutal

EDIT: Removed hotlinked picture. BG

Meanwhile, bored rich kids causing trouble because some people work for a living, or are just lucky enough to be able to hand over half their money so that bored rich kids can live on the government, in the same way they are used to getting money from their parents. If you don't speak dutch it will be hard to recognize the activist background of the unfunded and unbiased independent reporter.

http://www.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/video/2008/12/anarchisten_belagen_rijkerds.html

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Ah, well that should keep him warm, good thing we have activists Greek police can be quite brutal

I hope the officer is alright.

[Fragony]

I hope the officer is alright.

Probably dead by now look at him he is burning like a candle. It's a good thing some people have ideals don't you think.

[Meneldil]

What does that have to do with bored rich kids burning stores? If Greece was the least corrupt country the anarchists wouldn't act any different :inquisitive:

Do you have any proof that these people are rich kids, or are you just making that up, according to the usual anti-intellectual/anti-youth right-winged rethoric ?


Anarchists are without exception from well off families, and how else could they find the time to burn shops instead of having to work in one in a country as poor and corrupt as Greece? Clue, university, students, costs money

BS, otherwise, why would people go on strike ? They lose money, time and what not, yet they decide to do it.

While I despise most of the people who rioted in France a few years ago, it could hardly be said they were rich, anarchists or even leftists.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Do you have any proof that these people are rich kids, or are you just making that up, according to the usual anti-intellectual/anti-youth right-winged rethoric ?


It is not ironic that it sounds very unintellectual when the left calls the right anti-intellectual?

:idea2:

[Fragony]

Do you have any proof that these people are rich kids, or are you just making that up, according to the usual anti-intellectual/anti-youth right-winged rethoric ?


They are students, studying costs money. They can study, so their parents have it. And because they have the time to burn shops, which they wouldn't even consider doing if they were working class kids who know about hard labour, and because they, much unlike people who are motivated by something, and study instead of riot because they want to make something out of their lives, riot, 1+1=2.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

They are students, studying costs money. They can study, so their parents have it. And because they have the time to burn shops, which they wouldn't even consider doing if they were working class kids who know about hard labour, and because they, much unlike people who are motivated by something, and study instead of riot because they want to make something out of their lives, riot, 1+1=2.

Exactly. These are at least upper-middle class students attending these Universities who are tearing apart innocent businesses. They really are a bunch of spoiled brats running around like idiots. It is really a shame the Greek police aren't more assertive. The stupid protection they have on campus is a crock and from the investigation so far the killing of the 15 year old boy was a ricochet. This is absurd! :dizzy2:

[Meneldil]

It is not ironic that it sounds very unintellectual when the left calls the right anti-intellectual?

:idea2:

Well, anti-intellectualism has been a defining factor of the Right's discurse since the beginning of the modern era, whether you like it or not. It has since then been succesfully exported to the far-left, but it doesn't change the fact it was first used by the reactionnary right.



They are students, studying costs money. They can study, so their parents have it. And because they have the time to burn shops, which they wouldn't even consider doing if they were working class kids who know about hard labour, and because they, much unlike people who are motivated by something, and study instead of riot because they want to make something out of their lives, riot, 1+1=2.

So yeah, you're making that up and don't have anything concrete to back up your claims :-/

One year at the Uni in France costs 400€, which is roughly equal to 15 days of work for a student. I'd hardly call that hard labour.
Of course, Greece isn't France, the country is poorer, but the wealth of a country often bears no relevance to the tuition fees one has to pay in said country. For all I know, University could be free in Greece.

On a sidenote, I'm glad that in some countries, students don't have to work to pay for the university.

Then, according to your wonderful and flawless reasoning, what about:
- workers who go on strike ?
- workers who riot and destroy stuff ?
I guess they have no clue about the value of money and of hard larbour and just act as spoiled kids :shrug:

Notice that I have absolutely no sympathy for the rioters, since I'm pretty sure most of them just want to blow things up for the heck of it (I don't have much sympathy for the :daisy: greek government as well), but it looks like your attempt to describe them as just upper class people who want to have fun is to say the least, baseless.

[Fragony]

It is really a shame the Greek police aren't more assertive. The stupid protection they have on campus is a crock and from the investigation so far the killing of the 15 year old boy was a ricochet. This is absurd! :dizzy2:

Ya, smack them around the ears good and they will soon remember that pappa is a judge. Just shoot them when police-officers get torched the dye is cast.

but it looks like your attempt to describe them as just upper class people who want to have fun is to say the least, baseless.

As I said, anarchists are, without exceptions, from rich family's. Can't think of a revolutionary that wasn't really. Can't think of any anarchist student with a job either, why would they when your pappa is rich. If I am wrong, look around you.

EDIT: Removed hotlinked picture. BG

Oh sorry when someone is burned alive it looks like this;

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/brandagentgrathene.jpg

That is one cooked cop, ouch looks hot

http://www.spitsnieuws.nl/archives/video/2008/12/grieken_bestormen_politieburea.html

^- Ah, bored rich kids attack the police station.

[JR-]

the sequence of pictures is shown here:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/picturegalleries/worldnews/3725083/Shocking-pictures-of-a-policeman-on-fire-after-a-petrol-bomb-was-thrown-at-him-in-Greece.html

one thing i have always admired the french for is the carte blanche they give their riot police when things go sour, and i sincerely hope that the scrote in the first linked picture was taken down a back alley and beaten into a bloody pulp, just like the french riot police were rumoured to do.

in other news - greece has run out of tear gas and is appealing for more. give it to them i say.

[Fragony]

Hmmm at least the officer doesn't seem to be hurt that badly, I thought he was done for for sure that is good at least. No pocket-money for that guy for at least a year I say.

[InsaneApache]

Greece is indeed corrupt, it's a national pastime. It's also a police state. As for the rioters, they should get some social workers in and give them a damn good talking to.

[Tribesman]

Probably dead by now look at him he is burning like a candle.
Is that another of your 1+1=2 things Frag ?
Does it really =3 ?

Hmmm at least the officer doesn't seem to be hurt that badly
That should have been obvious from the picture you posted , besides the riot gear being flame retardent the flames were the wrong colour and didn't have enough smoke .
Bloody Greek amatuer anarchists can't even add the little specials to make a petrol bomb work properly .
I blame their education :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:


one thing i have always admired the french for is the carte blanche they give their riot police when things go sour
Which is why France doesn't have riots quite frequently and they don't spread to other parts of the country and don't last for days , especially when the riots are not fuelled by police brutality :dizzy2:


in other news - greece has run out of tear gas and is appealing for more. give it to them I say.
Well alternately there is this politician who is campaigning for his country to make savings by getting rid of all non-lethal equipment for crowd control , perhaps Greece can give Likud a call

[Fragony]

I am not particulary well schooled in commenting on the various degrees in which people can burn Tribes I am kinda lacking in experience. So I go with what I know: fire, hot, ouch!, thus, fire bad, so consequently: molotov cocktail equals not nice.

Not talking about firewater mind you have a few on me.

[Tribesman]

I am not particulary well schooled in commenting on the various degrees in which people can burn Tribes I am kinda lacking in experience.
And I sincerely hope that never experience people burning as it isn't a nice thing to experience .

OK , so given your lack of knowledge don't you think as you have this internet thingy you could look at a news source and see if their is like a big frontpage headline saying "Greek policeman killed by rioters" ?


molotov cocktail equals not nice.

Yes not nice , but a properly made one is really really not nice whereas a crappy one just looks good for a short photo oppertunity .

[JR-]

Which is why France doesn't have riots quite frequently and they don't spread to other parts of the country and don't last for days , especially when the riots are not fuelled by police brutality :dizzy2:


perhaps they give their riot police license because they have to, as a result of the national french past time being a weekly strike leavened with a monthly riot? :p

regardless, throwing a petrol bomb at a police officer in a representative democracy is plenty enough reason for a back alley baton clubbing within an inch of his life, preferably followed by a stiff sentence during which the jury serenely smile while the police explain how he 'resisted' arrest.

i view it with as much outrage as the asian subcontinents past time of throwing acid in girls faces.

[Fragony]

OK , so given your lack of knowledge don't you think as you have this internet thingy you could look at a news source and see if their is like a big frontpage headline saying "Greek policeman killed by rioters" ?

I do know it takes a few miserable days to die from burning wounds when they are severe enough. Happened to a family I used to visit as a kid, it will be a good day when I can just forget what it looks like.

[Husar]

Well, that's some tax money well spent on protective suits and mini fire extinguishers. :2thumbsup:
what the police could do is throw back some fragmentation grenades and see how the rioters like it when dangerous things are thrown at them.
Though I wouldn't say that's an excuse for police brutality either, but then police brutality isn't a reason for riots like this, if it's that bad, get guns and make a bloody revolution, but these half-arsed attempts never really work anyway. :sweatdrop:

[Kralizec]

I don't like the Greek government either (slight understatement), but that doesn't give you an excuse to destroy other people's property. But what do you expect, the vast majority of self-declared anarchists are scum themselves.

In the earlier days of the riots, I heard on the telly that in many blocks the destruction was pretty comprehensive - except that fastfood joints and cafetarias were often left untouched :dizzy2:

[HoreTore]

[QUOTE=Fragony;2082491]They are students, studying costs money./QUOTE]

Free education FTW!

[InsaneApache]

The only thing free in life is fresh air.

[Fragony]

Free education FTW!

I wouldn't call it free education but I do hope someone is taking notes regardless.

[HoreTore]

I wouldn't call it free education but I do hope someone is taking notes regardless.

Education is free here and a few other countries, which I think is a really good idea, hence the "FTW" ~;)

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Yeah I wish the same were true in America. I'm looking at a minimum of $9,000 a year tuition and that is one of the cheapest prices for a good instituition. My other choices are around $17,000 and $20-30,000! This is robbery! :laugh4:

[HoreTore]

Yeah I wish the same were true in America. I'm looking at a minimum of $9,000 a year tuition and that is one of the cheapest prices for a good instituition. My other choices are around $17,000 and $20-30,000! This is robbery! :laugh4:

*points and laughs while digging up 10$ to pay his tuition*

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

*points and laughs while digging up 10$ to pay his tuition*

You pay the rest anyway, just with a tax form instead of a tuition bill.

[Incongruous]

Education is free here


You sure?

[Husar]

You pay the rest anyway, just with a tax form instead of a tuition bill.

The difference is always when and how much, if you loan the money now you also pay back later but with interest. The taxes do not cost any interest, administrative means have to be taken in banks as well so they shouldn't count. In the end you may pay less with taxes, you also pay for others or have others pay for you so it is more like those in the best financial situation pay and helpt the less fortunate to an education as well. Helps to find the best among all instead of just the best among the rich and that helps advance society in general which can be seen in some scandinavian countries. Denmark for example has completely free education (I think you even get some money) and they are among or even the happiest people on this planet.

[HoreTore]

You pay the rest anyway, just with a tax form instead of a tuition bill.

And that's the good way of doing it. Makes sure that the ones who get a higher education are those with good grades, not those who can pay for it :smash:

[Fragony]

*points and laughs while digging up 10$ to pay his tuition*

Quite expensive that. 1200 euro here, but you need books, living space, food, impossible to study and not have a job unless you have rich parents like anarchists.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Shall we return to topic gentlemen, or is the situation in Greece no longer of interest?

[Tribesman]

Shall we return to topic gentlemen
considering the sheer numbers on the streets its quite an eye opener .
I never realised there were so many rich kids in Greece , that country must be doing really well economy wise .

[Fragony]

I never realised there were so many rich kids in Greece

And to think that these are just the bored ones. Of course compared to our anarchists these guys would be considered lower class but Greece ain't the neds is all relative Tribes.

[Ironside]

considering the sheer numbers on the streets its quite an eye opener .
I never realised there were so many rich kids in Greece , that country must be doing really well economy wise .

That's why the rioters get so much popular support, it's the parents to those rich kids... :juggle:

[Fragony]

That's why the rioters get so much popular support

:laugh4:

That what they tell you in Sweden? But yeah point taken, absolutely unthinkable that in a country of millions there are thousands of students, amazing.

[Ironside]

:laugh4:

That what they tell you in Sweden? But yeah point taken, absolutely unthinkable that in a country of millions there are thousands of students, amazing.

They are mentioning that it is more to it (this time, appearently a popular habit in Greece) than simply a bunch of youth that are looking for an excuse to be violent.

[Kralizec]

Heh. A while ago our Labour party wanted to cut money for student grants because: (paraphrased) "it's ridiculous that blue collar workers should pay for the education of future lawyers and doctors"

Apparently forgetting that these people will pay enough taxes during their life time to offset these grants several times. This wonderful line of reasoning came from our treasury minister, no less.

[Husar]

Here (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/12/2008_greek_riots.html) are some pictures for those interested, number 10 invalidates Fragony's argument as the man surely doesn't look like a rich kid. ~;)

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Here (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/12/2008_greek_riots.html) are some pictures for those interested, number 10 invalidates Fragony's argument as the man surely doesn't look like a rich kid. ~;)

No, he looks like a rich/middle class adult.


And that's the good way of doing it. Makes sure that the ones who get a higher education are those with good grades, not those who can pay for it :smash:

Oh, I didn't say otherwise, I was just pointing it out. ~;)

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The corruption thingee is a real problem. It seems to cripple democracies for generations once it becomes endemic to the society.

As for the streets of Athens, how many of you would agree with Bonaparte's presecription for such situations?

[Fragony]

Here (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2008/12/2008_greek_riots.html) are some pictures for those interested, number 10 invalidates Fragony's argument as the man surely doesn't look like a rich kid. ~;)

Awesome pics. And need I say more? Are those the poor and deprived? Well fed and much better haircuts then our anarchists but then again our anarchists are richer

[Alexanderofmacedon]

The difference is always when and how much, if you loan the money now you also pay back later but with interest. The taxes do not cost any interest, administrative means have to be taken in banks as well so they shouldn't count. In the end you may pay less with taxes, you also pay for others or have others pay for you so it is more like those in the best financial situation pay and helpt the less fortunate to an education as well. Helps to find the best among all instead of just the best among the rich and that helps advance society in general which can be seen in some scandinavian countries. Denmark for example has completely free education (I think you even get some money) and they are among or even the happiest people on this planet.

I'd attribute that to something else...

[HoreTore]

Heh. A while ago our Labour party wanted to cut money for student grants because: (paraphrased) "it's ridiculous that blue collar workers should pay for the education of future lawyers and doctors"

Apparently forgetting that these people will pay enough taxes during their life time to offset these grants several times. This wonderful line of reasoning came from our treasury minister, no less.

OMFG what an utter idiot. Somebody assassinate him.

[LittleGrizzly]

Awesome pics. And need I say more? Are those the poor and deprived? Well fed and much better haircuts then our anarchists but then again our anarchists are richer

Well fed means nothing, we don't have anyone starving in britian but that does not means everyone is rich, haircuts are also pretty cheap, even unemployed people can afford to go and get thier haircut...

So that just leaves the clothes, do i see gucci ? armani ? versace ? no i don't see a single brand name on display (pic 7 im using) infact i bet any unemployed person in britian who shopped around a little could afford most of those clothes.... so greek protestors just bored rich kids ? i say bollocks!

[Fragony]

So that just leaves the clothes, do i see gucci ? armani ? versace ?

Wouldn't know how to recognise them, can you give me a few pointers?

[LittleGrizzly]

Most of the time they usually say on them, i suppose theres a chance the clothes thier wearing aren't covered in expensive brand that made them, but much more likely clothes aren't covered in cheap brand that made them...

Honestly a lot of the clothes on display there could be bought at markets and cheap clothing places for very little, you don't have to be anywhere near rich to dress like the rioters, whereas rich kids tend to be noticeably rich just from outside appearance...

[Fragony]

Hmmm, I just saw the brandnames Armani and Versace, which I enjoy wearing but I would hate it if they just dissapeared when I am just walking on the streets, good thing the street doesn't have an edit button

[LittleGrizzly]

Hmmm, I just saw the brandnames Armani and Versace,

Where ? ill admit im not brand expert but the only one i could see for sure was nike, which is worn on council estates so again not only for the rich..... middle class grizz owns a fake armani shirt....

[Fragony]

You know where, in your post before the edit

[Husar]

Well, as always poor is relative, you can wear Armani when you're poor in the western sense of the word, you just have to save a bit and not buy a new HDTV instead. On the other hand Bill Gates wears pullovers(I hear it's normal for US west coast managers not to wear suits). I don't think it matters that much, the real problem is whether the boy was killed intentionally or not and I'd leave it to the experts to find that out, hopefully they're not corrupt.

[Strike For The South]

I am going to rectify an abuse upon humanity I can't stand. The "protester giving cop flower" trend. Im buying my plane ticket and beating him with a blunt object. Does he think hes cool? Is he making a statement? You know where he should be? At work. If you and your friends want peace WHY ARE YOU BURNING THINGS TO THE GROUND.

The police should be given a blank check if the anarchists really want to "change" things they should earn it. Most of us leanred how to stop breaking our things when we were small children.

See thats the problem with todays socitey. No one has the patience for peaceful protest or the balls for a violent one. God I loathe them.

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

Seeing as no one from Greece posted in this thread, I will try to explain the situation and the background of the whole story as well as I can. It is going to be reeeeeeeally long but bear with me.

Let's start with the junta of 67. Yes, it goes that far back. In fact it goes to the civil war of 1944-49. The division between right and left has been very deep in Greece. You can realise that because we had a civil war between communists and the post-WW2 government of Greece. It was a bitter struggle. A lot of people were involved in it and only with American money and arms was the democratic government able to defeat the communists which had the help of Tito, the dictator of Yugoslavia. Anyway, fast forward to the junta of a few army colonels. It was a "typical" junta. Extreme right wing government, extreme police brutality, lots of infrastructure built, roads, hospitals, etc. The communists however were hunted mercilessly. A lot of them were exiled to deserted Greek islands like Makronisos, Leros and others. It was very harsh there. Lots of torture, beatings, brutality, all because they were communists. In 1973, we had the national technical university riots. Hundreds of students barricade themselves in the university, set up a radio station and call of the overthrow of the junta. Tens of thousands take to the streets. Police try to disperse them with beatings, arrests, chemicals even shooting. Finally, the junta decides to use a tank to throw down the main gate of the university and disperse the students. The "revolution" is over. However, the main leader of the junta, Papadopoulos is couped by another officer, Ioannides, which takes power and uses even more extreme police brutality to quell unrest. A year later, the Turks invade Cyprus and Ioannides calls Caramanlis, exiled in Paris, to come back and hold elections. The junta falls. A few years later, in 1981, Papandreou takes the power. He was a socialist and an extremely charismatic man. As such he aims to pull down the whole "rightist state apparatus" and give justice to the oppresed leftists. He also institutes a university asylum. Police can enter any campus if both the university authorities AND the student representative agrees, something that never ever happened. Also, he gives permission to students to form political organisations in the university. They are quickly highjacked by the main parties, thus making universities highly political and corrupt. By the way, universities in Greece do not have fees and entry is determined by your grades (in 6 subjects) at the end of the last year of highschool. Because there are not many placements (not enough buildings) grade are usually very high. But I digress. Also, Papandreou decides that anarchists (whose main area of operations is Exarcheia, an area of Athens, will not be disturbed. Exarcheia would be cordoned by police, but the anarchists would have their place. Fast forward to 2004. The socialist government loses the elections. Yes, they managed to hold on that long. From 1981 to 2004 with a 3 year break, during which the conservative government tried to pass many libertarian measures but it was met with massive protests. You can imagine how much the greek society has turned leftist, statist, anti-rightist, tolerant to anarchists, blaming the police for everything. "Mpatsoi, gourounia, dolofonoi" (Cops, pigs, murderers) is being heard for many years in Greece. And the police itself is not innocent either. There have been 81 deaths from police brutality or outright shooting with no reason since the restoration of democracy. But no one has ever been punished for these cases. It was always a "richocet", "the gun went off", "he was armed" and so on. You realise that anti-police feelings were further intensified.

In 2004, the conservative government took power. Everyone was sick of the corruption of the socialists (socialists in name only however) and the new government offer hope and its main message was to crush corruption. They did nothing of the kind. The few independent authorities were tied to the ministers. No action was taken. Scandals come one after the other. Since 2004, there have been almost 10 major scandals. Ten. Corruption was rife. From paying doctors in public hospitals to do their (extremely underpaid) job, paying city planning authorities to get a license to build your house, paying to be accepted as a professional soldier and so on. Although this started with the socialists, it was intensified. Keep in mind that the economy in Greece sucks. Tax evasion is massive, mostly from the upper classes. Since corruption was massive, with a few money to the right people you could do anything in Greece. People started seeing this happening more often. Then the most massive scandal in Greek history, blew up. A monastery in Athos, headed by a most ingenious monk, claimed the sea-lake Vistonida. The layers of the state had advised the previous socialist government to contend the evidence in court and if the court decided that the lake was the monastery's it should pay 60mil euros to the monastery and have the case closed. The "evidence" of the monastery were copies of grants by Byzantine emperors and Ottoman Sultans. The new government inherited the case. However the sealake was the property of the state and because it was a sealake (it was connected to the sea through a small opening) was protected from any interference because of its ecologic significance. The sealake was rebranded by officials (a few minister and their underministers, organised by the closest partner of the PM) as a lake. Now, it was open to exploitation. In the case, just before the court was going to say that the lake belonged to the state, the state abdicated. Now it could be sold. As I said previously the state would have paid 60mil euros. However, the corrupt officials managed to have the lake's value estimated at 1bil euros. Thats 1500% more. The officials decided to exchange the lake with property of the state. Property which included archaelogical site, forest properties which were promptly rebranded as "not forest" and so on. During all of this, the government did not do a single thing to have it investigated. When it finally came to that, only the resignations of two procesutors brought the case to the parliament to be investigated (politicans can be only examined and prosecuted by the Greek parliament). The government never used the word "scandal" nor did it ever accept the political misconduct of its ministers. We are talking about the most massive scandal in Greek history. It proved to the people that this was the most corrupt government in Greek history and it had no intention whatsoever to act differently. People lost faith in politicians, the democratic system, in parties, in the future of the country. The economy was in shambles, due to the inflexibility of the Greek economic system, the very high public debt, corruption, lack of investment, the global financial crisis. A whole generation of people who have a 700 euro salary (near the basic, or lowest, salary) were extremely dissappointed. They had no idea when they would retire, if they would retire. Unemployment was (and is) almost 25% for those under 30. Almost 75% of this generation, G700 as it is called here, would leave Greece to work abroad if they had the chance. Teenagers in the final years of highschool saw the situation of the market they would get in and they were losing hope. The future seemed black to them. They would have to work harder than their parents for less money. The universities in Greece were (and are) despicable to them. Research is non existent, professors cannot be graded on their performance and they cannot be fired, unis are battleground for youth political organisations controlled by the main parties of the Greek parliament, the asylum means that they are not safe, drugs are casually sold there etc. It is madness.

And then the shooting came. A "special guard", a man trained for just three months in a service that although it belonged to the Greek police was supposed to only guard buildings was doing a patrol in Exarcheia, the haven of the anarchists. Recently police have been trying to slowly assert their control in Exarcheia. Attacks on police cars were frequent. The officers serving in the area were those who did not have someone with some power to get them out and the station was considered a "bad transfer". They were having a bad time and they were tense. Instead of calm and trained policemen, "special guards", untrained for this situation were doing patrols regularly. It was only a matter of time before something happened. That something was a 15yo throwing a bottle at the police car of this special guard. He said he was bored of having stuff thrown at him, bored of being swore at. He parket, got out, got near those kids, started swearing them, they swore back, he pulled the gun and shot. He said that he was attacked and that he turned his back and started running, then he fired 3 shots on the air. Yet one of them went straight through the kids heart. The Minister of Interior Affairs, after this had happened, said that the police would keep a "defensive posture". That was taken by the anarchists exactly as what it was. The government had decided that it would be better for those anarchists to break a few stores, burn a few cars as the police watched until they would tire and go home. But nothing like this happened. 15yos, 16yos, even people in their 20s go out and started protesting. It was massive. There is also evidence that the anarchists had been planning to do a lot of damage for some time. They certainly had the tools. Blogs, SMS, Twitter, Facebook. Things the government did not even know, much less understand. So the situation got completely out of hand. The police had orders not to engage anyone. Fires started burning. Kids and anarchists were throwing rocks, molotov coctails, breaking stores. Behind them, the looters came. People from all classes and all origins. Well dressed women, well dressed men, kids, teenagers, young adults, poor, rich and a huge amount of immigrants. After all the damage had been done, the next day the police tried to imposed some kind of order, not really succeding. Since then, there have been a lot of protests every day, mainly from teenagers but very few violent incidents.

These are the facts and the background. I hope all this helped. For those who managed to read all the way to this sentence, here's a cookie. (http://infinitejestchallenge.files.wordpress.com/2008/01/chocolate_chip_cookie.jpg) :P

(My god, it's massive. My longest post ever.)

[CountArach]

Thanks for that post Cataphract. I now understand exactly why these people are marching - hell, I would be out there as well were I Greek.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Yikes.

It would seem that the particulars of the "trigger" indicident are more or less immaterial to the real issues. These undertrained specials -- I wonder, do they wear black and tan? -- may have been completely correct in the specific instance that triggered this latest phase, but its not all that relevant.

Sounds like there will be revolution in the near future -- bloodless let us hope -- and that the current right-wing government will need to be replaced by another one.

So, and I aim this especially at those of you who follow the Balkans closely, what government should come next? What government will come next?

Edit:

I am always fascinated by these things. I have a sense that chronic and nearly-ubiquitous corruption is, after a few decades, pretty much a guarantee of a regression to balkanism and/or warlordism & tribalism.

[HoreTore]

The cookie was soooooooooooooo worth it.

@ Seamus: Corruption is indeed the greatest threat to our world. It can bring down any nation. If there ever is a crime worthy of the death penalty, it's corruption. Zero tolerance is the only way to go, once it gains a foothold in a government, you're screwed. Completely. And it'll take decades to purge it.

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

So, and I aim this especially at those of you who follow the Balkans closely, what government should come next? What government will come next?

Right now, the polls have the opposition (the "socialist" or rather the social-democrat party, PASOK) leading 5-7%. Just before the 2004 election its leader decided to step down and hand over the leadership to the son of the founder of the party, George Papandreou. It created an outcry to the base of the party, people were talking about a dynasty. Whatever the means of him taking power, the man at least tried to give the party a new character. Its leader is now elected from the base and already two such elections have taken place, with almost 1mil voting in each one. This was something new for Greek parties. However, this party has a sinful history, such as being the one that created all the white elephants of Greece: electricity service, telecommunications service, railways, state TV and radio channels, Olympic airways. All these were packed with potential voters in exchange for their votes. They "institutionalised" nepotism. However corrupt though, the years from 1996 to 2004 were good for Greece. Things were getting (sloooooowly) better, independent authorities were being set-up etc. However the people still saw too much corruption and voted for the conservatives. They screwed up almost everything. It is amazing, to paraphrase Churchill, how so few people, managed in such a short time to screw up so many things.

Anyway, on the question, until a few weeks ago none of the two main parties were able to form a single party government. A lot of people were supporting a leftist-progressive party mostly as a reaction to the mess in PASOK (Papandreou was challenged after losing the elections of 2007 but he won). Now that PASOK is getting its act together people are supporting it again. Also, the massive scandals, corruption etc had made many voters turn to the other "credible" force in Greek politics, PASOK (the rest being the leftists, the communists and the far-rightists). So, to answer your question (finally :P) if the elections were held now it is quite likely that PASOK would form a single party government. If it does not have the necessary strength, perhaps it will form a coalition with the leftists, though I find it unlikely, as the leftists are not willing to cooperate.

On who should be the next government, I believe that the two major parties should form a big coalition and force through the necessary measures however unpopular, like liberalising the greek economy, granting universities autonomy and ability to set their own fees and many many other things. But I don't think this will ever happen in Greece. Too many negative things have been said and done between these two to forget. And they are not statemen enough to do this for the good of the country. :no:

[Tribesman]

Hmmm, I just saw the brandnames Armani and Versace
Well that shows that they ain't rich kids , its only paupers who wear visible labels .

[Fragony]

victory is yours Tribes.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Cataphract,

But destroying innocent small businesses? I mean if what you say is true, then these people are suffering enough as it is and don't need a bunch of unruly teenagers to destroy their only means of survival! Police cars...okay, understandable (still pointless, but understandable). Private property?...I have to disagree. :wall:

[Husar]

[...]their only means of survival!

Maybe in capitalist America they will let you rot on the street if you have no job but I'm not sure about Greece, in most somewhat civilized countries we have things like insurances and unemployment money from the government so losing your job does not mean you cease to exist. Maybe you Americans heard of that as well. ~;)

[HoreTore]

Cataphract,

But destroying innocent small businesses? I mean if what you say is true, then these people are suffering enough as it is and don't need a bunch of unruly teenagers to destroy their only means of survival! Police cars...okay, understandable (still pointless, but understandable). Private property?...I have to disagree. :wall:

I'd say if you're dumb enough to run a business without a proper insurance, you deserve to rot.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

Yeah, you're right. It's not the rioters fault...

[Ice]

I'd say if you're dumb enough to run a business without a proper insurance, you deserve to rot.

Well thankfully the laws dealing with private property in most countries are somewhat different... :balloon2:


Yeah, you're right. It's not the rioters fault...

Oh course not. Looting and burning private property is sticking it to the man!