View Full Version : Sab'yn Status
Elmetiacos
12-10-2008, 21:03
I was told a while ago that nobody was currently working on this faction for EB or EB2 and hence the team had had to put in Greek or Hebrew names as placeholders for some units. While surfing for information on Hamitic/Celtic syntactical similarities for another thread, I happened upon this website with its large database: http://starling.rinet.ru/index2.php?lan=en which includes Epigraphic South Arabian. There are words like 'FRS.N for "horsemen" GYS2 for "army unit, detachment" which could be used to get reasonable approximations of Sabaean unit names... or is this already being done?
No, this isn't being done. Thanks, I'm sure that will be useful :2thumbsup:.
I was told a while ago that nobody was currently working on this faction for EB or EB2 and hence the team had had to put in Greek or Hebrew names as placeholders for some units. While surfing for information on Hamitic/Celtic syntactical similarities for another thread, I happened upon this website with its large database: http://starling.rinet.ru/index2.php?lan=en which includes Epigraphic South Arabian. There are words like 'FRS.N for "horsemen" GYS2 for "army unit, detachment" which could be used to get reasonable approximations of Sabaean unit names... or is this already being done?
they sound very familiar to me: the first is like fursān, and the second like jaish.
It just donned on me: why didn't EB use Arabic as a placeholder? (up until Elmetiacos found this)
EDIT: what has hamitic to do with Celtic (beside maybe a few loanwords)? and how do I find the dictionary you decribe in the website(Epigraphic S. Arabian)?
EDIT: never mind-got it.
Elmetiacos
12-12-2008, 02:10
EDIT: what has hamitic to do with Celtic (beside maybe a few loanwords)?
It started in the 18th Century in a silly way, with Welshmen trying to draw false analogies with Hebrew to prove the antiquity of Welsh, but more recently some people have drawn different parallels, mainly the unusual word order of modern insular Celtic languages, which are apparently more like Hamitic or Semitic than Indo-European. It's been used to argue that an Afro-Asiatic language was spoken in the British Isles, either as a pre-Celtic substrate or in a Phoenician trading colony. I was on the same mailing list as a Celticist called Alex Kondratiev a few years ago and we floated the idea that the non-Celtic Pictish oghams could be Hamitic on the basis that the Picts were supposedly matrilinear and the syllable ETT kept appearing, so it could be the feminine T affix. Following this reasoning the inscription at Lunasting (E)TTUCUHETTSAHEHHTANNNHCCVVEVVNEHHTON starts t-wkw-t sa... which suggests a goddess whose name means bright or shining (3152) is asked to do something to someone. The theory didn't really take off... :thumbsdown:
oudysseos
12-12-2008, 08:58
I've been reading my Cunliffe as a result of the Irish/Celts thread, and the claim is not quite that there was an afro-asiatic language spoken as a whole, but that there was a lingua franca that developed as a result of bronze age trade networks (Cunliffe thinks that there were two competing networks), stretching from Carthage to the British Isles, and that this largely celtic lingua franca was influenced in some way by the punic speaking traders. He also concedes that there may be alternate causes for the correspondences.
I believe that there is a German (Vonnenman? or something like that) who has a theory about semitic Picts. But I'm not familiar with it.
Elmetiacos
12-12-2008, 12:49
Vennemann - he thinks that there was such a language spoken all over Western Europe.
And Jesus really lived in America.
a completely inoffensive name
12-13-2008, 02:51
Oh lobf, will you ever make a comment that doesn't make me laugh?
oudysseos
12-13-2008, 13:28
Lobf, I have to point out that Vennemann may or may not be wrong in his theory about Punic substrates to German and Celtic languages, but he's not just talking out of his Arsch. Here is an extensive list of his work: http://www.lrz-muenchen.de/~vennemann/ Some of it is very interesting and far beyond my competence to judge, and I suspect beyond yours as well, unless you have a 35+ year history of published works on linguistics, historical phonology, morphology, and other disciplines. All of which has nothing to do with the Sab'yn.
Celtic_Punk
12-13-2008, 14:07
And Jesus really lived in America.
*shakes head* all about the mormons...
As usual Oudyssos I find the links you post are such an interesting read.
Elmetiacos
12-13-2008, 19:06
Vennemann - he thinks that there was such a language spoken all over Western Europe.
Hmm, actually, he seems to believe that it was a language related to Basque and Aquitanian that was spoken all over Western Europe; Semitic was limited to Britain.
unless you have a 35+ year history of published works on linguistics, historical phonology, morphology, and other disciplines.
Well as a matter of fact...
No, actually. That website makes no sense to me at all, really. Maybe because I just woke up.
It started in the 18th Century in a silly way, with Welshmen trying to draw false analogies with Hebrew to prove the antiquity of Welsh, but more recently some people have drawn different parallels, mainly the unusual word order of modern insular Celtic languages, which are apparently more like Hamitic or Semitic than Indo-European. It's been used to argue that an Afro-Asiatic language was spoken in the British Isles, either as a pre-Celtic substrate or in a Phoenician trading colony. I was on the same mailing list as a Celticist called Alex Kondratiev a few years ago and we floated the idea that the non-Celtic Pictish oghams could be Hamitic on the basis that the Picts were supposedly matrilinear and the syllable ETT kept appearing, so it could be the feminine T affix. Following this reasoning the inscription at Lunasting (E)TTUCUHETTSAHEHHTANNNHCCVVEVVNEHHTON starts t-wkw-t sa... which suggests a goddess whose name means bright or shining (3152) is asked to do something to someone. The theory didn't really take off... :thumbsdown:
thanks for enlightening me.:yes:
Cartaphilus
12-14-2008, 22:01
Hmm, actually, he seems to believe that it was a language related to Basque and Aquitanian that was spoken all over Western Europe; Semitic was limited to Britain.
How a semitic language could arrive to British Island and last enough time to leave a trace?
I think that it is nearly impossible.
Have the few punic or phoenician merchants that supposedly traveled to the Cassiterides searching tin influenced the evolution of an indoeuropean language spoken by thousands?
It would be a miracle.
Think better in "old european" languages - that they were not semitic at all.
(But the identification of the Cassiterides is not even clear - they may fit better with spanish territory than to british one)
Thanks for a very interesting link! No plans have been made yet when it comes to sabaean unit/building/... translations. Though I hope we can at least use modern Arabian as a basis combined with as much as we can find about Sabaean or similar arabian dialects.
Thanks for a very interesting link! No plans have been made yet when it comes to sabaean unit/building/... translations. Though I hope we can at least use modern Arabian as a basis combined with as much as we can find about Sabaean or similar arabian dialects.
Moros, I have just went ahead and made a dictionary/lexicon of Sabaean, using that link and one other source. you want? I can have it finalised by next week.:yes:
EDIT: prototype:
http://files.filefront.com/Epigraphic+South+Arabiandoc/;12738572;/fileinfo.html
Sweet. It's great that EB manages to somehow attract specialists like you.
Elmetiacos
12-23-2008, 12:18
Great stuff! I stumbled across this study of Modern South Arabian on a pdf a while ago: http://llacan.vjf.cnrs.fr/fichiers/Senelle/SAMLanguages.pdf, although I seem to remember someone saying ESA is actually closer to Ge'ez (classical Ethiopian) than these languages. It's all rather technical, but probably easier to understand if you speak a Semitic language such as Arabic already (which I obviously don't)
Great stuff! I stumbled across this study of Modern South Arabian on a pdf a while ago: http://llacan.vjf.cnrs.fr/fichiers/Senelle/SAMLanguages.pdf, although I seem to remember someone saying ESA is actually closer to Ge'ez (classical Ethiopian) than these languages. It's all rather technical, but probably easier to understand if you speak a Semitic language such as Arabic already (which I obviously don't)
I do: the languages of today (MSAL), indeed have less in common wih Arabic than sabaean does to Arabic: phonology is also very different: but most of the words I saw for ESA matched arabic words perfectly (consonant wise), but MSAL's cognates are barely recognizable: they have IIRC evolved many new vowels, while retaining all or most of proto semetic's consonents-more consonents than Arabic in Fact, or ESA). grammar is far more different too, at least as far as I can tell .that said, the three languages should belong to 3 seperate branches of the semetic languages: Arabic northernmost, then sabaean, then MSAL, and lastly Ge'ez, the most "southern". but whether ESA is closer to Arabic or Ge'ez, elmetiacos, I dunno..I just learn the language. I'll need more words, and a better understanding of their grammar to tell.
I do not yet have a list properly made for sabaean pronouns-but If I do, I can get a better idea.
@Subotan: I'm no specialist in languages-just a curious fulan ~;)
Moros, I have just went ahead and made a dictionary/lexicon of Sabaean, using that link and one other source. you want? I can have it finalised by next week.:yes:
EDIT: prototype:
http://files.filefront.com/Epigraphic+South+Arabiandoc/;12738572;/fileinfo.html
That's great! Thank you quite a bunch. :bow:
Edit: might you have a link to the other source, or a reference if not a website. I try to keep track all sources I use. Makes it easier to awnser questions in the future and perhaps for further reference. Thank you very much for your help.
That's great! Thank you quite a bunch. :bow:
Edit: might you have a link to the other source, or a reference if not a website. I try to keep track all sources I use. Makes it easier to awnser questions in the future and perhaps for further reference. Thank you very much for your help.
Its the website Elmetiacos provided. plus, I foud a txt file of Sabaean lexicon on the internet (a google search). I can give ye a webite, but I have to find it again (I don't keep records like I'm supposed to:shame:).
but I'll get it for you, if I can find it again.:beam:
EDIT:Finally found it: http://nlp.amharic.org/resources/related-languages/sabaean/Sabaean-3Columns-20080421.txt
I just found these too:
www.telefonica.net/web2/aulaorientalis/pdf/BIB-SEM.10ENSA.pdf (Its a bibliography, but Its got info in it)
http://www.bartleby.com/61/10.html (Its proto semetic, but lays down some common rules)
I was going to prepare the info I had by yesterday, but I ran into RL, and www.kronoskaf.com's labor shortages (I need to mae articles in place of my boss).
I will compare the sabaean glossary to Akkadian, Arabic, and Amharic (I'll need to lear Amharic). And If anyone knwlegeable in Hebrew wishes to help, PM me.
Its the website Elmetiacos provided. plus, I foud a txt file of Sabaean lexicon on the internet (a google search). I can give ye a webite, but I have to find it again (I don't keep records like I'm supposed to:shame:).
but I'll get it for you, if I can find it again.:beam:
EDIT:Finally found it: http://nlp.amharic.org/resources/related-languages/sabaean/Sabaean-3Columns-20080421.txt
I just found these too:
www.telefonica.net/web2/aulaorientalis/pdf/BIB-SEM.10ENSA.pdf (Its a bibliography, but Its got info in it)
http://www.bartleby.com/61/10.html (Its proto semetic, but lays down some common rules)
I was going to prepare the info I had by yesterday, but I ran into RL, and www.kronoskaf.com's labor shortages (I need to mae articles in place of my boss).
I will compare the sabaean glossary to Akkadian, Arabic, and Amharic (I'll need to lear Amharic). And If anyone knwlegeable in Hebrew wishes to help, PM me.
Very nice work, very nice indeed. :yes:
well, I've started on a more complete study.
wish good luck. and that college doesn't stop it.
well, I've started on a more complete study.
wish good luck. and that college doesn't stop it.
Good luck! And college is keeping me from my EB research too.
SamuraiofDoom
01-12-2009, 02:34
Will our new Sab'yns be able to recruit Arab infantrymen and Bedouin Tribesmen.
gamegeek2
01-12-2009, 13:10
Thx a bunch, Ibrahim, I'll put these roots to use in AtB.
Will our new Sab'yns be able to recruit Arab infantrymen and Bedouin Tribesmen.
If that was a question, then yes, they should. but they are nothing like the infantry you are thinking of...
besides, they already reruit Arabian auxiliaries, so why change the unit roster? (though they seriously need to lose the javelins)...
Elmetiacos
01-27-2009, 17:22
More good stuff - this short paper: http://www.ieiop.com/pub/10korotayev_24477968.pdf has sha'b as an administrative division and has a translation of qsd-hmw w-rgl-hmw w-'dm-hmw as "free peasants and soldiers and clients".
More good stuff - this short paper: http://www.ieiop.com/pub/10korotayev_24477968.pdf has sha'b as an administrative division and has a translation of qsd-hmw w-rgl-hmw w-'dm-hmw as "free peasants and soldiers and clients".
thanks!
I see that rgl is cognate to arabic rajul, used here for soldiers, hmw means free, 'dm is client, and qsd is peasents. I'll try to add them in the mini lexicon.
@anyone reading: If you find any information on the language and culture of Saba', post a link here.
Great work Ibrahim. :yes: My exams are done so I'll have more time to contribute.
Great work Ibrahim. :yes: My exams are done so I'll have more time to contribute.
just as mine did as well. I can restart the effirt at full throttle.:yes:
I'll get the nouns and verb stems done. are you going to your library? you can use it to collect the pronouns, prepositions, and grammatical stuff.
just as mine did as well. I can restart the effirt at full throttle.:yes:
I'll get the nouns and verb stems done. are you going to your library? you can use it to collect the pronouns, prepositions, and grammatical stuff.
I'm gonna look up grammar books and the likes on Semetic languages and Sabaic. And try to find as much as possible, not sure how much that's going to be though. But as they also teach Aramaic, Akkadian and similar languages at my uni, there must be books about it. Probably gonna do Aramaic myself next year so.
After doing some searches I've found a Sabaic dictionary. I've also got that book we talked about, describing semetic languages
After doing some searches I've found a Sabaic dictionary. I've also got that book we talked about, describing semetic languages
can you scan the former?:yes:
If so, may, you send copies of the scan to me?:yes:
Okay just spend the last 4 hours reading a dictionary. And yes it's as boring as it sounds. Got to page 103, but now I'm truely fed up. It made a nice list though, which I'll share after doing a proper transliteration. Also you cant believe how many words they have for destroying things, for dams and for camels.
Okay just spend the last 4 hours reading a dictionary. And yes it's as boring as it sounds. Got to page 103, but now I'm truely fed up. It made a nice list though, which I'll share after doing a proper transliteration. Also you cant believe how many words they have for destroying things, for dams and for camels.
well, arabic has 3-4 dozen words for camel: jamal, ibil, naaqah, thaniyya, baazil, and the list goes on...
in fact, Arabic has more words for camel than the inuits have for snow.:laugh4:
well, I'll be waiting..:2thumbsup:
Well, the Inuits never did have many words for snow. :beam:
But 3-4 dozen is a lot.
well, arabic has 3-4 dozen words for camel: jamal, ibil, naaqah, thaniyya, baazil, and the list goes on...
in fact, Arabic has more words for camel than the inuits have for snow.:laugh4:
well, I'll be waiting..:2thumbsup:
How did you do them backwards '?'-like symbols. I'm temporarly using brackets instead of them '(' or ')'. I'm gonna make the list in the Sabaic alphabet followed by a transscripted version and followed by a more readible sort of transcirption/phonetic. (possibly with vowels)
Any suggestions on doing the latter? Also I'm using Sabaean44.ttf for sabaic, you can download it for free. (use google).
How did you do them backwards '?'-like symbols. I'm temporarly using brackets instead of them '(' or ')'. I'm gonna make the list in the Sabaic alphabet followed by a transscripted version and followed by a more readible sort of transcirption/phonetic. (possibly with vowels)
Any suggestions on doing the latter? Also I'm using Sabaean44.ttf for sabaic, you can download it for free. (use google).
well, if the curve faces to the right (exactly like ?), I usually place a ' in its place. if its backwards, I place a 3 instead. otherwise, I can't make those signs directly. (besides, they can be confusing: I once mistranliterated the sabaic for "father" as 3b, instead of the correct 'b).
I think I'll have to share the standard I came up with, to ease problems.:yes:
EDIT: moros, I'll send you the "semetic standard" I came up with. I use it to compare sabaic to Arabic and akkadian. I send it to you, as the signs are distinctive for each sound, easing transcription. I used it for the mini lexicon.
Okidoki. yeah little difference can make a big change in meaning. I noticed a misspelling in EBI of mlk to mkl. So our king became a granary... ~:)
Okidoki. yeah little difference can make a big change in meaning. I noticed a misspelling in EBI of mlk to mkl. So our king became a granary... ~:)
:laugh4:
aye, a common problem with semetic: its all too easy to pun, and/ or mix up.
any news on the work on your end, Moros?
going slowly here.
MeinPanzer
02-12-2009, 06:49
I recently got a hold of "Warfare in Ancient South Arabia: 2nd - 3rd c. AD" by A.F.L. Beeston, which is an annotated collection of epigraphical sources relating to warfare from the specified time period. This was the first time that details of campaigns were given in dedications, and so these reveal quite a bit of information about warfare in general. Are you making use of these sources for the Sabaeans in EBII? Of course, this relates to a period chronologically removed from the EB timeframe, but it seems that few elements of South Arabian warfare changed in the mean time, so much of the information is still very relevant.
that sounds like an excellent source, i'll look into it.
Ibrahim: sorry for my absence but my internet was broken, and today it's finally working again.
Ibrahim: sorry for my absence but my internet was broken, and today it's finally working again.
no hurry here. been busy lately.
hey Moros!
I have managed to finally get the preposition collection finished; I'm sending it to organize word searches and grammar. the idea I hope is that we can cut up the languages so to speak, and look each part up, saving time, and more importantly, effort, for future work. I started with this paper: it details all prepositions used in Sabaean. It should help you with looking for those. the next time round I'll try to send pronouns:
http://files.filefront.com/prepositionsdoc/;13395117;/fileinfo.html
again, you have to find them in the library dictionary, as I have none.:shame:
great, I've not been doing much on sabaic lately because of other EB research and because of a paper I'm having to write. Will get you an update shortly though.
I recently got a hold of "Warfare in Ancient South Arabia: 2nd - 3rd c. AD" by A.F.L. Beeston, which is an annotated collection of epigraphical sources relating to warfare from the specified time period. This was the first time that details of campaigns were given in dedications, and so these reveal quite a bit of information about warfare in general. Are you making use of these sources for the Sabaeans in EBII? Of course, this relates to a period chronologically removed from the EB timeframe, but it seems that few elements of South Arabian warfare changed in the mean time, so much of the information is still very relevant.
Found the book. Gonna read it after I've finished my little paper which I need to turn in this friday.
athanaric
03-22-2009, 14:31
Is it decided yet whether the Arabian and Sabaic units will keep their javelins? I have heard some people here (at least Ibrahim) say that they didn't use javelins during the EB timeframe.
Btw.: Anyone else notice the change in Moros' signature?:inquisitive:
Is it decided yet whether the Arabian and Sabaic units will keep their javelins? I have heard some people here (at least Ibrahim) say that they didn't use javelins during the EB timeframe.
Btw.: Anyone else notice the change in Moros' signature?:inquisitive:
me and Meinpanzer actually*. And no, I don't know what the EB team thinks. but if recommendations are followed, units native to Arabia won't have javelins (ethiopeian? sure, give them such). this is because there is no evidence of such a weapon, either in stelae, or in the literature, in the hands of an Arabian* (whether from saba' or the Arabs):no:
and yes, Moros' sig has changed; he is advertising a new, unknown faction. I'm wondering what it is.
*Actually, meinpanzer was the one who explained it for Saba'. he noted that, while they may have been used, bows predominated (as missile weapons). It was a PM. but there is no conclusive evidence, for Saba' at least, that javelins were used.
*mentioned with ehiopeians, and by the 7th century, in yemeni hands.
Nirvanish
03-24-2009, 17:24
I'm sure that someone has seen this already but I figured I would post it anyways.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/arabia1.html
It gives accounts of "Arabia" from Herodotus, Strabo, Dio Cassius, Ammianus Marcellinus and Procopius. Though the accuracy should no doubt be in question it maybe of some interest to anyone working on Sab'yn.
I'm sure that someone has seen this already but I figured I would post it anyways.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/arabia1.html
It gives accounts of "Arabia" from Herodotus, Strabo, Dio Cassius, Ammianus Marcellinus and Procopius. Though the accuracy should no doubt be in question it maybe of some interest to anyone working on Sab'yn.
its ok when viewed in greek eyes, but ignore the modern annotations.
Nirvanish
03-25-2009, 18:33
Yeah I don't think those annotations were necessary. If I find anything else that appears relevant I will post it.
Many petroglyphs show bows, I havn't seen many depicting javelins yet. Though one possibly could be, but at the moment I have not yet made a full conclusion. I'm looking around for evidence and if it is proven that I really can't find any, than the Sabaeans will not get any javelins. When I, or the better the EB team, has taken a final stance, I'll come and tell.
me and Meinpanzer actually*. And no, I don't know what the EB team thinks. but if recommendations are followed, units native to Arabia won't have javelins (ethiopeian? sure, give them such). this is because there is no evidence of such a weapon, either in stelae, or in the literature, in the hands of an Arabian* (whether from saba' or the Arabs):no:
and yes, Moros' sig has changed; he is advertising a new, unknown faction. I'm wondering what it is.
*Actually, meinpanzer was the one who explained it for Saba'. he noted that, while they may have been used, bows predominated (as missile weapons). It was a PM. but there is no conclusive evidence, for Saba' at least, that javelins were used.
*mentioned with ehiopeians, and by the 7th century, in yemeni hands.
After some more reading and concepting the outline of the Sabaean army together with paullus, I can tell you that there will be javelins. Though not sure if there gonna be that many. Probably for peasant levies and light cavalry.
MeinPanzer
04-12-2009, 17:28
After some more reading and concepting the outline of the Sabaean army together with paullus, I can tell you that there will be javelins. Though not sure if there gonna be that many. Probably for peasant levies and light cavalry.
What evidence did you find that supported the use of javelins, especially for light cavalry?
What evidence did you find that supported the use of javelins, especially for light cavalry?
For example the book of Beeston. Who mentions cavalry harassing enemies. The bow on the other hand will be mostly reserved for elite units. As shown in warrior freezes.
athanaric
04-12-2009, 20:38
The bow on the other hand will be mostly reserved for elite units.
So, no more Sabaean (light) Archers?
Well, I'll be happy whether you give Saba's troops javelins or not. Gameplay wise the Arabian cavalry kinda sucks without javelins. Still, historical accuracy is better than gameplay. After all, this isn't Starcraft (EB II looks much better than Starcraft II).
So, no more Sabaean (light) Archers?
Well, I'll be happy whether you give Saba's troops javelins or not. Gameplay wise the Arabian cavalry kinda sucks without javelins. Still, historical accuracy is better than gameplay. After all, this isn't Starcraft (EB II looks much better than Starcraft II).
Well I'm thinking of still including them as part of the communal levy. But keep them rare as archery especially in the poor classes was (to quote Qwerty) 'frowned upon'. They usually were nothing but hunting tools.
On cavalry just like in EB I a great part of the Sabaean cavalry will be light bedouin mercenaries, but some light sabaean cavalry is planned as well as some heavier cavalry. Perhaps also a heavier more parthian/persian influenced local cavalry unit might be avaible in Arabia as well. It will depend on how many slots we'll get.
Edit: of course there'll be slingers as well.
MeinPanzer
04-13-2009, 00:44
For example the book of Beeston. Who mentions cavalry harassing enemies. The bow on the other hand will be mostly reserved for elite units. As shown in warrior freezes.
Well, we hear of cavalry harassing enemies, but that doesn't necessarily imply any sort of missile use. Given the absolutely tiny cavalry contingents that were included in pre-Islamic Arabian armies - a few examples list 26 horse to 300 infantry, 40 to 1500, and 26 to 1000 - it seems very likely that these were only the absolute richest members of the expeditionary force who operated on horseback alongside the commander. Our other information about cavalry does not imply missile usage, and given such minuscule numbers, I find it hard to justify the inclusion of a missile cavalry unit.
Nirvanish
04-13-2009, 05:01
Thanks for all the hard work and research guys. I cannot wait to see what my favorite faction will look like when EBII comes out.
Well, we hear of cavalry harassing enemies, but that doesn't necessarily imply any sort of missile use. Given the absolutely tiny cavalry contingents that were included in pre-Islamic Arabian armies - a few examples list 26 horse to 300 infantry, 40 to 1500, and 26 to 1000 - it seems very likely that these were only the absolute richest members of the expeditionary force who operated on horseback alongside the commander. Our other information about cavalry does not imply missile usage, and given such minuscule numbers, I find it hard to justify the inclusion of a missile cavalry unit.
the missile cavalry will not be Sabaean, rather bedouin. And especially in more northern arabia missiles were much more common. Also why would one of the most basic weapons, cheapest also, not be used? Surely they wouldn't be too vain.
Also how would you see a small force of cavalry harassing a large army if not with missiles?
Mediolanicus
04-13-2009, 16:04
Also how would you see a small force of cavalry harassing a large army if not with missiles?
By disrupting formations and attacking a few infantry soldiers and then retreating, without getting into a real melee.
MeinPanzer
04-13-2009, 18:19
the missile cavalry will not be Sabaean, rather bedouin. And especially in more northern arabia missiles were much more common. Also why would one of the most basic weapons, cheapest also, not be used? Surely they wouldn't be too vain.
Okay, that sounds good. All I'm saying is that we hear of tiny cavalry contingents, dozens at most, in southern Arabian armies, and whenever we see them depicted, they are shown as lancer cavalry, and our poetic evidence suggests that they only ever fought as lancer cavalry.
Also how would you see a small force of cavalry harassing a large army if not with missiles?
As Mediolanicus says, engaging briefly when an opening is spotted and then retreating.
Also I believe to have seen a couple of different petroglyphs what may be depicting javelin cavalry. Of course this would be bedouin and more northern. (a safaitic one and one thumadic.)
MeinPanzer
04-14-2009, 19:45
Also I believe to have seen a couple of different petroglyphs what may be depicting javelin cavalry. Of course this would be bedouin and more northern. (a safaitic one and one thumadic.)
Which ones would those be? I know of a few more northerly ones that show camel wrangling where the men wield their spears overhand, but there's nothing to indicate that they may be javelins.
Which ones would those be? I know of a few more northerly ones that show camel wrangling where the men wield their spears overhand, but there's nothing to indicate that they may be javelins.
Yeah I've seen one or two of those as well. Also I said may be javelins, they could be overhand spears as well.
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