"Quisque est barbarus alio"

[Quercuum]

Maybe I shouldn't post this topic right here, but I'd like to have an answer to a question I keep asking myself since I know EB (not much, so).
In the sentence "Quisque est barbarus alio", why is it "alio"? I study Latin and, in my opinion and for what I know about this language, this sentence hasn't the meaning you want to give it.

In fact "Everyone is a barbarian to someone" should be "Quisque est barbarus ALII" (Alius,-a,-ud. Dative: Alii).

Of course, I'm sure there's not a mistake (I can't be the first one who's noticed it) so I'd like you to explain me why the sentence is written that way. Besides, I know "alio" instead of "alii" is found in some documents, but it was principally a volgar variation...

Thank you, and sorry for being so pedant:sweatdrop:

[abou]

What we have could still work, but it would be an odd construct using the ablative. So yes, you are correct. What we wrote is that everyone is a barbarian to/for garlic.

Oi, looks like we'll have to correct this.

[oudysseos]

Have you thought of translating the motto into other languages as well? Greek, at least. Would make it look less Romano-centric.
Would only work if you could change to loading screen randomly, I suppose.

[SwissBarbar]

i which case you'd have to translate "Europa Barbarorum" too...

[keravnos]

An effort of that, those who are Ancient Greek speakers feel free to chime in...

"Quisque est barbarus alio"=
ΕΚΑΣΤΟΣ ΕΚΑΣΤΩΙ ΒΑΡΒΑΡΟΣ ΕΣΤΙ
or
ΕΚΑΣΤΟΣ ΑΛΛΟΤΡΙΩΙ ΒΑΡΒΑΡΟΣ ΕΣΤΙ

"Europa Barbarorum"=
Η ΤΩΝ ΒΑΡΒΑΡΩΝ ΕΥΡΩΠΗ

IIRC, the problem we face are the fonts within the game, otherwise you would have had a lot of Greek apopthegms in game.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I'd favour allotrioi over [h]ekastoi mainly because it reflects the notion of 'alien' better. Of course, another typical expression would be:

[h]ekastos kath' [h]ekaston barbaros estin tisi - "everyone is in turn a barbarian to someone"

[SwissBarbar]

An effort of that, those who are Ancient Greek speakers feel free to chime in...

"Quisque est barbarus alio"=
ΕΚΑΣΤΟΣ ΕΚΑΣΤΩΙ ΒΑΡΒΑΡΟΣ ΕΣΤΙ
or
ΕΚΑΣΤΟΣ ΑΛΛΟΤΡΙΩΙ ΒΑΡΒΑΡΟΣ ΕΣΤΙ

"Europa Barbarorum"=
Η ΤΩΝ ΒΑΡΒΑΡΩΝ ΕΥΡΩΠΗ

IIRC, the problem we face are the fonts within the game, otherwise you would have had a lot of Greek apopthegms in game.

could you write this in latin letters? i'd like to know how to pronounce it

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Yes, it's wrong, unless it was originally meant to be "Everyone is a Barbarain by someone called" (the verb was then dropped) or something, but to be honest its more likely just wrong.

Oops.

[||Lz3||]

and no one had found out?

[abou]

There are a small group of adjectives that decline differently than most in the second declension. Second declension words that you would be familiar with are mostly names such as Julius, Augustus, and Livius. Adjectives such as alius are also part of the second declension, but their genitive and dative forms are slightly different.

To be fair, I would like to think that it is an easy mistake to make. For example, I have a Latin minor from my time in undergrad and having read it I didn't bat an eyelash and understood perfectly what was written. It was a simple mistake, albeit one that should not have happened.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Looking again I'm wondering if it's meant to be vulgar Latin, in which case "alio" may be acceptable.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Looking again I'm wondering if it's meant to be vulgar Latin, in which case "alio" may be acceptable.

Yeah, I was wondering about that too. Does EB use Classical Latin - the most common surviving version of that language? Old Latin would definitely be more appropriate, but it is not as well-known as Classical.

[||Lz3||]

was that quote also in vanilla?

I think I remember it... or maybe I'ts been so much time that I don't remember vanilla hehe

[keravnos]

could you write this in latin letters? i'd like to know how to pronounce it

Hekastos allotrioi barbaros esti

and of course Tellos' own,
[h]ekastos kath' [h]ekaston barbaros estin tisi - "everyone is in turn a barbarian to someone"

[Quercuum]

There are a small group of adjectives that decline differently than most in the second declension. Second declension words that you would be familiar with are mostly names such as Julius, Augustus, and Livius. Adjectives such as alius are also part of the second declension, but their genitive and dative forms are slightly different.

To be fair, I would like to think that it is an easy mistake to make. For example, I have a Latin minor from my time in undergrad and having read it I didn't bat an eyelash and understood perfectly what was written. It was a simple mistake, albeit one that should not have happened.

First of all, it IS a mistake that's easy to be made; in fact, the first time I read it, I didn't notice it too.
Secondly, adjectives as "Alter (-a,-um), Alius (-a,-ud), Neuter (neutra, neutrum), Ullus (-a,-um), Nullus (-a,-um), Solus (-a,-um), Totus (-a,-um), Unus (-a,-um) etc." are called Pronominal Adjectives since they're declined, in genitive and dative, as pronouns.
So it's "Alteri" for "at/for the other one" instead of "Altero", following the common "-o" 2nd declination dative form. This is true for all these adjectives, so "Alterius, Alteri- Aliius, Alii etc."

As I've specified in my first post, "Alio" is known as a vulgar form, but I think a sentence like "Everyone is a Barbarian to someone else" is too important and significant to be written in such an incorrect and popular Latin. That's why I guess it should be reviewed.

Finally, I'd agree with who says that this sentence should be written in Greek too; but, if we do so, it would be unfair for Celtic and Punic factions. In this case, what I think has to be found is an almost neutral and universally understood language, as English nowadays it's used in European Union for interpolitical debates. That's why, in my opinion, the title and the main sentence of the mod should remain in Latin only.


Edit: It cannot even be as Philipvs Calicvla says. In fact, if it was "Everyone is a Barbarian by someone called", in Latin would be "Quisque Barbarus ab alio appellatur". (Litt: Everyone is called Barbarian by someone else). We'd lose the "est", and if we cut away the verb (Quisque Barbarus ab alio) this sentence would really sound as if it was pronounced by a non-Latin person.

Anyways, I apologize if I'm annoying everyone with these know-all Latin lessons; I just wanted to understand if there was a mistake. And I definetely think there is

[ziegenpeter]

You compared latin to modern english, but at these days, wasn't actually greek the most widespread language?

[oudysseos]

Why choose? You could have
a. the motto in all the ancient languages that you can manage (latin, greek, celtic, proto-germanic, punic, aramaic etc., assuming as i believe is the case that the EB team has collectively the required knowledge)
b. alternate loading screens with alternate languages for the motto (this would be cool I think)
c. animated start-up screen where the latin morphs into greek morphs into lepontic etc. (and for Christmas I want a Ferrari)

Greek would have been much more universal in 272 BCE. By Ad 14?

P.S. This isn't Proto-German of course but I found myself thinking 'Jedermann ist jemand Barbarisch' but that sounded more like 'Jederman ist jemand Bayerisch', i.e. Everyone is a Bavarian to Somebody.:ahh:

[ziegenpeter]

Greek would have been much more universal in 272 BCE. By Ad 14?


Well.. yes.

[Obelics]

isn't "ALIO" a complemet of limitation? isn't the phrase "barbarous for other people" that "for other people" a complement of limitation?
for other people, in relation to other people etc.
so "Alio" could be correct, cause that complement is translated with a simple ablative.

beware im not stating nothing, just trying to figure it out (my latin is just that remembrance of highschool/classical lyceum, and i wasn't a great student at the times:inquisitive:)

[Obelics]

i dont know if this can be of help, just out of curiosity i talked at telephone with the mother of a friend of mine, she's graduated in latin and greek, it was just a fast conversation, so i dont had the time to talk in deep, but she sayd it cannot be a complement of limitaion, so the dative is just.

she translated: "quisque aliis hominibus barbarus est" if i well understood via telephone.

EDIT: anyway some mistake could it come from my translation in italian of the english sentences, i translated the others at the plural, so this can be why she translated aliis hominibus
also she sayd hominibus was optional.
So if we use the singular, i think "Quisque est barbarus alii" is ok.
My doubt was just on the Dative vs Ablative thing.

[miotas]

Everyone is a Bavarian to Somebody

:laugh4: love it. i couldnt stop laughing. my vote for the new motto :2thumbsup:

[antisocialmunky]

I'm surprised no one has given you a :balloon2: good sir, you do deserve it for this epic correction. :beam:

[ziegenpeter]

:laugh4: love it. i couldnt stop laughing.

Especially i you know how the bavarians are regarded by most of the other germans...:2thumbsup:

[SwissBarbar]

Especially i you know how the bavarians are regarded by most of the other germans...:2thumbsup:

and how are they regarded? By experience i say that every "group" of germans is disliked by another "group" of germans. So are the Saxons, the Swabians, citizens of Berlin, people from Cologne do not like people from Düsseldorf and vice versa, etc. etc. .... Actually it's the same in most other countries.

[Shigawire]

According to QuickLatin (which was probably used for this), ALIO is both Dative and Ablative. :)

But perhaps it's as you say, the popular vulgar form of Latin. Is there a source that states that ALIO is not both abl. and dat.?

When I check most Ablative and Datives, they very often share the suffix.

[Kuningaz]

Well for us Austrians bavarians are the northern-most 'civilized' people (Weisswurscht-Aequator):laugh4:

[miotas]

Especially i you know how the bavarians are regarded by most of the other germans...:2thumbsup:

i was thinking more along the lines of the dessert...:sweatdrop:

[Urg]

I don't think its a mistake.

My latin dictionary says "alio" is an adverb (not a declension of alius, which is an adjective) which means "to someone/someplace else". I think it was a relatively common latin word.

[abou]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Declensions#First_and_second_.E2.80.93.C4.ABus_genitive_adjectives

This matches exactly what is in my Wheelock book, which is considered to be the Latin textbook.

[Elmetiacos]

Hmph, I'd worked out that in Gaulish, "everyone is a barbarian for garlic" would be something like *cremui anguaron papon, but "everyone is a barbarian to someone else" is going to be much harder...

[Quercuum]

According to QuickLatin (which was probably used for this), ALIO is both Dative and Ablative. :)

But perhaps it's as you say, the popular vulgar form of Latin. Is there a source that states that ALIO is not both abl. and dat.?

When I check most Ablative and Datives, they very often share the suffix.


I've already specified that "alio" COULD be correct as a dative in vulgar Latin. I remember, but I'm not sure, that "alio" is also a form used in some medieval documents. Anyways, what I think is now important to do, is to choose which Latin we want to use in this game and, since it's about an era in which Romans spoke Classical Latin, I think that's the language we should use. We want to make this mod as realistic as possible, don't we? So "ALII" is the most senseful choice to take. That's all I wanted to say

P.S: I've also described how some adjectives aren't declined as other ones. In these adj. genitive and dative are completely different from the usual forms.
So you're right when you say that most ablatives and datives share the suffix, since it happens in the second declination, and the third for
what regards adjectives (Ex: "Lupo" is both dative and ablative for "Lupus", 2nd declination; "Dulci" is both dative and ablative for "Dulcis,-e", adjective
of the third declination), but there are some exceptions; "Alius" is one of these.

P.S. 2: Up to now, this is the only source stating what I said (Look at pages 258-259-260)
"http://books.google.it/books?id=_OJNfmxYi1IC&pg=PA261&lpg=PA261&dq=special+adjectives+latin&source=bl&ots=nLm-71l6Y-&sig=3iH2BkspzmJYF3pNVHTbFX_dCIk&hl=it&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPA261,M1"

[Obelics]

I don't think its a mistake.

My latin dictionary says "alio" is an adverb (not a declension of alius, which is an adjective) which means "to someone/someplace else". I think it was a relatively common latin word.

According to my old dictionary, the adverb "Alio" exist, but the main meaning is "elsewhere"
Now, always according to it, this adverb has an "extended" II(second) meaning of "elsewhere"="to a different people", but just as a traslated/extended meaning.
So if the english sentence sound good as "Everyone is barbarous elsewhere" than is ok, but i dont think so.
To better undertand if i say to a man: "ehi! I dont want to read your curriculum"
then the guy could answer "then i will send it elsewhere" in the same meaning of "I will send it to some other guy" in this case i could use Alio as an adverb
But i think "Everyone is barbarous elsewhere" or “Everyone is a barbarian to other places” in the sense of "other people" sounds strange to me.
Also even if we want to accept it as a poetical licence, than it's a bit strange (for me) to see an adverb at the end of the sentence.

Here's a quote from Livio:
quo alio nisi ad nos socios

means: to whom if not to us allies? litterally==> to what "other where" if not to us allies?
http://la.wikisource.org/wiki/Ab_Urbe_Condita/liber_XXXIX

that is what i got from my old lyceum vocabulary, and according to my knowledge that i repeat is very limited (highschool), so as usually dont take it sure.

[Novellus]

That's a pretty huge discovery, finding a possible error in the translation. I can see it now:

EB 1.3 Released

Changed "Quisque est barbarus alio" to "alii"

(It's really that important!) :laugh4:

P.S. I'm not at all belittling the significance of the EB team or the Latin language.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

This is still being reviewed.

We do take it seriously but the most effort is going into EBII, and we do have jobs/degree/papers to mark etc.

[Novellus]

I apologize. I can see that my tone implied belittlement of the conversation. It just seemed unusual that the translation hadn't been discussed earlier like this.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yeah, for instance I STILL have to finish some other to-Ancient-Greek translations, and I'm sure they will require extensive error-checking by my colleagues... and those have been on the shelf for ~2 releases or so?

[Gleemonex]

Besides which, we're not yet sure whether it's even wrong...

-Glee

[TIBERIVS•SEMPRONIVS•GRACCVS]

I was thinking about the mottoo too, because I thought the syntaxis was not correct. I think that barbarus should be replaced with an acussative form: "barbarum". Quisque est (esse perhaps?) barbarum alii.

[abou]

The verb esse does not take a direct object; therefore, babarus is nominative.

[oudysseos]

Good news, everyone.

According to the Pocket Oxford Latin (http://www.j-progs.com/POL.html) computer programme, alio is either an adverb ("to another place; to another subject; to another purpose" or the "singular dat/abl masc/neut" of the adjective alius, alia, aliud ("another, different, changed; alius ... alius: one ... another"). Alii, meanwhile, is either the "singular genitive masc/neut" or the "plural nominative masculine" of alius, alia, aliud (same source). So it seems the quote was correct all along.

I Am Herenow

I found this on an internal discussion of this issue, which seems to settle it.

[Andros Antonius]

you know, i was wondering something. how is ii pronounced in actual latin? i know in english the second i is stressed and people would say ali-eye or something, and in romanian when used as a plural form of a word it's not. just curious, since i haven't taken any actual latin classes

[Tellos Athenaios]

you know, i was wondering something. how is ii pronounced in actual latin? i know in english the second i is stressed and people would say ali-eye or something, and in romanian when used as a plural form of a word it's not. just curious, since i haven't taken any actual latin classes

Two i's. For an idea, you could listen to the Latin Voicemod: Triarii!

[Urg]

Alii is pronounced al-ee-ee (say it quickly). I'm not entirely sure whether the emphasis should be on the middle or the final 'ee', although I'm tempted to suggest the final one.

And the 'a' is pronounced like the a in "arm", not the a in "apple".

[Urg]

I found this on an internal discussion of this issue, which seems to settle it.

By the way, thanks for posting this Oudy. I know this has been discussed before but it was never really resolved. Like you, I still think the quote used in the current mod uses correct Latin. It would be disappointing to see it changed simply because on a very basic Latin analysis alio appears to be an incorrect declension of the adjective.

[Blxz]

you know, i was wondering something. how is ii pronounced in actual latin? i know in english the second i is stressed and people would say ali-eye or something, and in romanian when used as a plural form of a word it's not. just curious, since i haven't taken any actual latin classes

Further to this, how is the whole quote pronounced? I have very limited latin but I tend to read it as:

Kiss-kay est barba-rus al-ee-oh

That turned out to be harder to type than I thought.... How correct am I with my pronunciation?

[Mediolanicus]

[Kw]iss[kw]"a" (with the "a" like in "ape") est bar-ba-r"u"s ("u" pronounced like a short "oo" as in book) a-leeo (with long clear "a" - unexistant in english, but like in German or Dutch - and a long clear "o" at the end).

[Urg]

[Kw]iss[kw]"a" (with the "a" like in "ape") est bar-ba-r"u"s ("u" pronounced like a short "oo" as in book) a-leeo (with long clear "a" - unexistant in english, but like in German or Dutch - and a long clear "o" at the end).

Yeah, I agree with him ^. Perfect pronunciation!

Always pleasantly surprised at how broad + deep the knowledge is in this place!

[Andros Antonius]

yeah, al-ee-ee makes the most sense to me

and isn't a u after a q in latin pronounced as a v? or is qvisqve not the right way to spell it? i know alot of times they're spelled that way, but the v isn't usually pronounced is it

[Mediolanicus]

yeah, al-ee-ee makes the most sense to me

and isn't a u after a q in latin pronounced as a v? or is qvisqve not the right way to spell it? i know alot of times they're spelled that way, but the v isn't usually pronounced is it

The Latin v = our modern v, u and w; depending on the word.

And it's a-lee-oo, not "al-..."

[Blxz]

[Kw]iss[kw]"a" (with the "a" like in "ape") est bar-ba-r"u"s ("u" pronounced like a short "oo" as in book) a-leeo (with long clear "a" - unexistant in english, but like in German or Dutch - and a long clear "o" at the end).

Great, thanks. I had it right except for the barbarus part. You are much better at writing pronunciation in text.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The Latin v = our modern v, u and w; depending on the word.

And it's a-lee-oo, not "al-..."

Latin "v" is really better understood as "u" until around 200 AD, at which time consonental and vowel diverge further.

[Deutschland]

Correctly it would be

Unusquisque est barbarvs alii.

Alii is the classical dative form.

Quisque can only stand in combination with reflexive pronomes or superlatives.

Otherwise it would need to have the Unus- augment.

In ancient greek it sound much more sophisticated anyways.

:)

[General Aetius]

And thus, the necromancer raised his hand and called forth armies of undead...

[Vlixes]

I don't think its a mistake.

My latin dictionary says "alio" is an adverb (not a declension of alius, which is an adjective) which means "to someone/someplace else". I think it was a relatively common latin word.

An adverb will make no sense. Definitely is a mistake.

[Arjos]

Alio is the correct dative in archaic latin. The language in use at the start date and for two of the three centuries covered by EB...

[Vlixes]

Alio is the correct dative in archaic latin. The language in use at the start date and for two of the three centuries covered by EB...

Where can I see this?

[Gaius Scribonius Curio]

According to the Lewis and Short dictionary the older version of the dative is found in Plautus (f. ~230 BCE). Furthermore, from the same source, the adverb alio is based on an old dative form, not the ablative you would expect, meaning 'elsewhere' or 'to another person or thing' similar to the Greek 'allose'.

Similarly, on 'quisque' the Lewis and Short states 'often used with reflexive se, suus'. On the other hand, often is not always, and it not necessary to do so.

[Bel Matina]

incidentally...

reconstructed Gallo-Brythonic "papos est allotoutos aliu"

reconstructed Proto-Germanic "mannz ist unkunyaz antherammu"

[Gabriel Oi Taurisia]

It's kind of strange to reawake a four year-old thread, but I wanted to note that alio may actually be correct.

Putting aside what alio meant in medieval vulgar Latin, let us focus on the standard Classical Latin; in particular, on what the ablative case, in the Classical Era, could mean in a sentence. Back then, Alio was indeed the ablative case of Alius, i.e. someone else.

Here is a list of the meanings that an ablative-inflected word can have in a sentence, always referring to the word alio:
Cause - i.e. the expression because of someone else
Means - i.e. the expressions by means of someone else, or through someone else
Time - Using the word vesper, the sentence "He arrived in Rome in the evening" would translate "Vespro Romam venit", in which the
ablative case of vesper (vespro) is used. Alio can't of course be used with such a meaning.
But there's still another meaning, which is what may interest the famous EB subheading.
An ablative can also mean "according to"; thus, alio can signify "according to someone else", which is what we look for.

Surely, if what we want to say is "to someone else", in Classical Latin, the right word is alii, i.e. the dative case. But, as aforementioned, alio can be used as well, albeit with a slight different meaning; a difference as slight as that between "to someone else" and "according to someone else".

So, isn't Quisque est barbarus alio the right wording?

A second note, about the pronunciation of the sentence. The English phonology is enormously different from that of Latin. As such, it is truly impossible to write an English expression with the absolute same pronunciation as that of Latin; be it the Classical (Restituta) or the Ecclesiastical one.

The only way, for anyone - English, Italian, French speaker, whoever; although it may be easier for some - to know how a Latin phrase in pronounced, is reading its IPA transcription. The International Phonetic Alphabet is made exactly for this kind of purpose.

A good IPA transcription would be /kwi:skwɛ ɛst ba:rbɐrʊs a:lio/; while the English transcription that was posted in this thread, which presents showy divergences, if spoken by a native English speaker has instead this sound: /kwɪskweɪ ɛstʰ ba:bəɹʊs a:liəʊ/. For an English native speaker, the highest hurdle would be speaking the trilled R (/r/) instead of the English /ɹ/ - or the vowels.

[Kilo11]

These threads are always slightly over my head but also always exactly what I love about EBII! You guys keep arguing about language and history and I will keep watching it all eagerly, just for the pure joy of learning!:2thumbsup:

[Connacht]

Hekastos allotrioi barbaros esti

and of course Tellos' own,
[h]ekastos kath' [h]ekaston barbaros estin tisi - "everyone is in turn a barbarian to someone"

Correct me if I'm wrong: εκάστος καθ' εκάστον βάρβαρος εστίν τήσι