Princess in EBII

[Cute Wolf]

Just curious, how about adding princess FM, as the way to got a long-lasting alliance as in M2TW? Think about The Ptolemies can give their daughters to Phrrhos, The Seleukids, and even Romans... emulating the marriage alliance in this era...

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

It has been discussed, and as I don't believe there is a final answer on it, I don't believe they will be used. One main reason being the wish to avoid the theft of enemy generals that Princesses can do.

[General Appo]

While marriage alliances were far from non-existant, they were not nearly as common as in medieval times, or so at least it appears to me.

[ziegenpeter]

Is that hardcoded or can you have princesses without the theft feature?

[Krusader]

While marriage alliances were far from non-existant, they were not nearly as common as in medieval times, or so at least it appears to me.

A quick look at the Diadochoi kingdoms will tell you otherwise. The early Ptolemies & Seleukids married their daughters here and there. Antiochos III had a Pontic princess as wife, Hierax had a Bithynian (or maybe Pontic as well), Attalos I's mother might have been Seleukid too. Ptolemaiois I was married at first with a daughter of Antipater (who seemed to marry his daughters off to most power players). Pontic Kings had wives from the Seleukid royal house as well.

The Roman nobility though did not marry outside the Roman families or at least it was almost taboo to do so, case in point being Caesar & Mark Anthony's relationship to Cleopatra. Ptolemaiois V or VI wanted to marry a prominent Roman noblewoman, but the sources say she refused to marry a foreigner which apparently won her much renown in Rome itself. So at least marriages between Romans & other factions should not be ingame.
As for the remaining factions, from what I gather marriages between them would not be looked down upon, as Hannibal & Hasdrubal both had Iberian princesses at least. Celts & Germans I have no idea on, but considering Celts intermarried with peoples they conquered and/or settled with I would take an educated guess and say they would not find it problematic.

[ziegenpeter]

Unfortunatly, you can't divorce in MTWII, which was AFAIK also very common in ancient times.

[oudysseos]

Is stealing enemy generals really so bad? First of all I don't think it's all that common- I hardly ever succeeded with it when I tried out DLV and PDER. And even if you do have to odd general switching sides- that occasionally did happen. Ptolemy Keraunos, for a perfect example. Coriolanus, maybe. Polybius, even. The 'marriage' part could be considered abstractly, the same way that a 'Man of the Hour' turns up in the family tree as someone's son or husband. I think the team should consider leaving it in- bribing generals hardly ever works unless you have a huge bank balance.

[Tyrfingr]

Princesses roaming free in the wild? Yeah right...ditch the unhistorical princesses, please!

[Subotan]

Presumably they have guards as well. But no snake charmers.

[Cute Wolf]

Stealing high-rank generals with high charm princess is an art on itself, at least you can expect that your daughter can betray you and follow that man instead. The only thing I would say about princess in EB II is:
- All diadochian (and hence nearly all greeks except Koinon Helennon), must have princesses
- Kardhastim, Phalavans, and easterners can have princess.
- The barbarians can have princess too (but what's the point to give such unwashed girl a hand?)
:laugh4:

At least with princess, you didn't have to use assasin's blade against high-rank uber generals that still bachelors...:laugh4:

[Celtic_Punk]

Princesses roaming free in the wild? Yeah right...ditch the unhistorical princesses, please!

sounds like the princess of wales in Braveheart *pukes*

where the hell is the bridge in the battle of Stirling BRIDGE

[antisocialmunky]

They ran out of money for the bridge...

It is too bad you can't represent their wives as ancillaries and tie them to traits. IE. If you move a wife from one guy to another, the guy who gets her turns into an adulterer, the guy who he got it from gets ++ fertility. Quite possible you could have one guy boning everyone's wife. Or something. If only you could kill ancillaries.

[Yyrkoon]

ancillaries disappear with the general...just load all your crappy ancillaries onto a guy you don't like and send him on a kamakazi mission.

[Elmetiacos]

Celts & Germans I have no idea on, but considering Celts intermarried with peoples they conquered and/or settled with I would take an educated guess and say they would not find it problematic.
Queen Cartimandua of the Brigantes seems to have married Venutius purely to bring his tribe into the Brigantian federation, judging by her later actions, but that was a ruling queen rather than a princess. Bearing in mind how easy divorce seems to have been for Celtic women, it would perhaps have been of limited political value.

[lobf]

While marriage alliances were far from non-existant, they were not nearly as common as in medieval times, or so at least it appears to me.

They did it pretty commonly in ancient Mesopotamia, too.

[Cartaphilus]

Is it possible that a (young) widow will marry again?
I suppose that it's hardcoded - and so impossible.
But it could be great - for example, the romans married "hundreds" of times like us the barbarians of 2008AD.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

If only you could kill ancillaries.

In M2TW you can remove ancillaries actually. In RTW you couldn't.

[Aemilius Paulus]

In M2TW you can remove ancillaries actually. In RTW you couldn't.

Wow! How??? I remember when I was playing M2TW for two weeks (I quit as I could not stand it), one of my FMs got the Pagan Magician, which does nothing but take off 2 Piety. I did not have a "trash can" general yet, so I just left the FM as he was.

[Ibn-Khaldun]

You can use remove_ancillary cheat.

remove_ancillary "Character name" "ancillary name"
example: remove_ancillary "Aemilius Paulus" "magician_pagan"

In RTW this thing doesn't work but it works in M2TW.

[Cute Wolf]

Heloo,... what about the princess???:belly:

Marriage alliance was ahistorical for some factions, right? so you can made the Romans, KH, and nomads didn't have any princess such as muslims in M2TW...

I just thinking about making the princess as some sort of generals in the field (like boudicca), at least it was better than give the 20 years old girl for 50 years old pervert.

[Megas Methuselah]

As MarcusAureliusAntioninus said, it's a bit too early to know for sure. Sorry CuteWolf, but we'll just have to wait a while until a final answer is made by the EB Team. In a few months, I'll necro this thread for you.

[satalexton]

u can always mod them into 'princes' and have them given to the other faction as hostages...(and various other things)

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

u can always mod them into 'princes' and have them given to the other faction as hostages...(and various other things)
Then they would have female names and have male suitors asking to marry your 'princes'. :sweatdrop:

[a completely inoffensive name]

Then they would have female names and have male suitors asking to marry your 'princes'. :sweatdrop:

Umm change the name for princesses in descr_name? Or is that not how it works for princesses?

[General Appo]

where the hell is the bridge in the battle of Stirling BRIDGE

To qoute Mel Gibson: "The bridge got in the way."
To qoute local Scott: "That´s what the English found too."

[Majd il-Romani]

Marriage alliance was ahistorical for some factions, right? so you can made the Romans, KH, and nomads didn't have any princess such as muslims in M2TW...

smart:idea2:

[General Appo]

But if that is tied with the Muslim feature then you´ll use up a potentially very useful feature on something argueably not really all that important.

[theoldbelgian]

I bet you are talking about the jihad-system indeed that is a much more important function than factions without princesses

[General Appo]

The Jihad system? No, I´m talking about the whole Marriage Alliance system and if its tied with 'Christian' factions or if 'Muslim' ones can use it as well.

[Lord_Phan]

No it's as simple as as changing one line in descr_factions

Have Princess = yes or no

[Cute Wolf]

I know there was a mod for M2TW that gives muslim factions ability to use their princess to steal away christian generals, but the backfire of this mod is simply the opposite, muslim generals can fall in love too with christian princess...:laugh4: :2thumbsup:

[Majd il-Romani]

I know there was a mod for M2TW that gives muslim factions ability to use their princess to steal away christian generals, but the backfire of this mod is simply the opposite, muslim generals can fall in love too with christian princess...:laugh4: :2thumbsup:

aha! :idea2: so lord_phan is right, we dnt need to make the factions that dont have princesses "muslim," we just need to change a line in the descr_whatever :clickme3:

[Cute Wolf]

Just a nice model for a Persian princess...
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/upload/ana_cute.jpg

[Leviathan DarklyCute]

Just a nice model for a Persian princess...
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/upload/ana_cute.jpg
Nice? No.
Do not want.

[Cute Wolf]

@ Leviathan

Nice? No.
Do not want.

:laugh4:

She was one of my close friend... :embarassed::dancing:

Just try to give an example of good Saba, Phalavan, Pontos, or Hayasdan Princes's portait.:yes:
How about greek Princess and barbarian princess... ?

[Majd il-Romani]

I dont think they wore the head-scarves in the Classical period, and I can see her glasses. Nice try though

[Megas Methuselah]

In a few months, I'll necro this thread for you.


Well, let's carry on the discussion. In all honesty, princesses really add to the roleplaying and fun factor of the game. Moreover, the Hellenistic dynasties practiced marriage alliances/peace treaties quite often. The Romans did, too (although only with other Romans).

I want to know how the other factions dealt with the royal daughters, and also wish to know the level of support the introduction of princesses in EB2 has amongst the peasants (you guys).

[Helgi]

Just a nice model for a Persian princess...
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/upload/ana_cute.jpg
It works for the time being, the headscarf and the glasses have to go as Majd il-Romani suggest's.:2thumbsup:

[Cute Wolf]

so... there will be a marriage alliance afterall?!?
ohh... and I hope barbarian Princess didn't wear the same thing with most "princess" on the Babe Thread... I'm almost sure headscarfes is used by Persian-influenced princess... because my GF told this...

Said that, Ptolies can get a real Peace terms with AS when they marry their princess to AS family, because the AI always honor (well almost always, I never get myself betrayed, except i has betrayed them first) a kind of marriage Alliance... this will give better RP afterall...

Stop quoting my girlfriend!:oops:

[Sarkiss]

here is Hayastan princess lol
https://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3968/kimkardashianb.th.jpg (https://img23.imageshack.us/i/kimkardashianb.jpg/)

[Skullheadhq]

here is Hayastan princess lol
https://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3968/kimkardashianb.th.jpg (https://img23.imageshack.us/i/kimkardashianb.jpg/)

ME want marriage alliance with hayasdan :P
Which general doesn't want mto leave the stinking baracks for this hottie :laugh4:

[Skullheadhq]

And here is the sweboz princess:
http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/celebs/heidiklum/heidi_klum_2.jpg

[antisocialmunky]

And here is the sweboz princess:
http://www.wallpaperbase.com/wallpapers/celebs/heidiklum/heidi_klum_2.jpg

At first I was like:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_K2s4COA6m_o/SeJCFSk7b7I/AAAAAAAAAKs/02-L7LNgEds/s320/monkey+full+face.JPG

Then I saw this:
http://www.topsocialite.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/heidi-klum-nomakeup.jpg

And was like this:
http://static.arstechnica.com/assets/2009/06/monkey_frown-thumb-230x130-6044-f.jpeg

source: http://www.gossipnewz.com/gossip_news/2008/05/celebrities-without-makeup/

[Azathoth]

Actually, using such ugly girls for the princess portraits would be more realistic, as most ancient women were in fact hideous. :yes:

[antisocialmunky]

Eh, more average than hideous. Besides, they had makeup and crap back then too.

[Azathoth]

In the artwork they look really bad. Like men, even.

I suppose their ideals of good-looking women could have been the opposite of ours, though, and that there were more attractive women IRL.

[Irishmafia2020]

I almost never marry princesses outside of my faction. They are however very useful to roleplay with in the faction. If a guy was a general or a client ruler, i could add him to my family through marriage. Also lets us not forget the Ptolomies of Egypt... now you can actually have siblings marry eachother. Rome was another faction that used marriage extensively as a political tool amongst ruling families. I vote for princesses!

[Skullheadhq]

Even if the EBII team leaves princesses out, there will be a mini-mod with princesses in no-time. Don't worry about that.

[Subotan]

Well, let's carry on the discussion..


here is Hayastan princess lol

OH LAWD

EPIC WIN

[Cute Wolf]

Wow, this thread is gonna to be the second babe thread... BTW, looks like that "hotties" wearing only thongs are unrealistic for Sweboz princess... they are supposed to march with their husbands in winter...

[Elmetiacos]

Someone really should make a fantasy mod of MTW of their own, then they'd be able to have all the chainmail bikini babes they wanted and the discussion might be kept off this board...

[antisocialmunky]

Someone really should make a fantasy mod of MTW of their own, then they'd be able to have all the chainmail bikini babes they wanted and the discussion might be kept off this board...

I tried to turn one of the throwaway LS threads into a babe thread one time...



Honestly, I find that chainmail is more practical...


Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
...because it's really hard to make a lamallar bikini.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41VuA7dyVJL.jpg

[strategos roma]

Is stealing enemy generals really so bad? First of all I don't think it's all that common- I hardly ever succeeded with it when I tried out DLV and PDER. And even if you do have to odd general switching sides- that occasionally did happen. Ptolemy Keraunos, for a perfect example. Coriolanus, maybe. Polybius, even. The 'marriage' part could be considered abstractly, the same way that a 'Man of the Hour' turns up in the family tree as someone's son or husband. I think the team should consider leaving it in- bribing generals hardly ever works unless you have a huge bank balance.

Actually, eleutheroi generals are quite easy to bribe. I once bought 2 generals, all arabians, early on in my 1st AS campaign.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Kudos to strategos roma for attempting to save the second babe thread from being locked due to off topic posts.

[Cute Wolf]

well, rather than posts the whole ahistorical princess in bikini, who have a historical image about hellenistic princess (put aside XXX version of cleopatra):wall:

[Megas Methuselah]

I almost never marry princesses outside of my faction. They are however very useful to roleplay with in the faction. If a guy was a general or a client ruler, i could add him to my family through marriage. Also lets us not forget the Ptolomies of Egypt... now you can actually have siblings marry eachother. Rome was another faction that used marriage extensively as a political tool amongst ruling families. I vote for princesses!

My thoughts exactly. Great for both practical and RP'ing purposes.

[Alsatia]

I almost never marry princesses outside of my faction. They are however very useful to roleplay with in the faction. If a guy was a general or a client ruler, i could add him to my family through marriage. Also lets us not forget the Ptolomies of Egypt... now you can actually have siblings marry eachother. Rome was another faction that used marriage extensively as a political tool amongst ruling families. I vote for princesses!

If the romans married between families politically, how can we simulate such unless we get princesses and split the roman factions lke vanilla (the latter, we all agree is ahistorical and incredibly stupid.)

[Foot]

If the romans married between families politically, how can we simulate such unless we get princesses and split the roman factions lke vanilla (the latter, we all agree is ahistorical and incredibly stupid.)

We cannot simulate everything, and the game is not designed to allow such micromanaging of family politics in the patrician class of rome. You just can't do it to the degree you wish to. Its a non-starter. What we have to decide is how much can we reasonably simulate given the focus and limitations of the game.

Foot

[Alsatia]

We cannot simulate everything, and the game is not designed to allow such micromanaging of family politics in the patrician class of rome. You just can't do it to the degree you wish to. Its a non-starter. What we have to decide is how much can we reasonably simulate given the focus and limitations of the game.

Foot

Agreed. We all know that the EB is limited due to the engine. I know that you cannot do everything but all we can do is hope for the best.

[Megas Methuselah]

We cannot simulate everything, and the game is not designed to allow such micromanaging of family politics in the patrician class of rome. You just can't do it to the degree you wish to. Its a non-starter. What we have to decide is how much can we reasonably simulate given the focus and limitations of the game.

Foot

Does that mean princesses will still be in the game?

[Foot]

Does that mean princesses will still be in the game?

There is still some debate on the issue (particularly with regards certain aspects of their abilities), but at the moment they are still in.

Foot

[Megas Methuselah]

:jumping::jumping::jumping::jumping:

[Cute Wolf]

There is still some debate on the issue (particularly with regards certain aspects of their abilities), but at the moment they are still in.

Foot

Ability for the Diplomacy? (Which I think they are still fine...) Well educated princess sometimes could topple hard core generals.... Remembar how Cleopatra conquer Julius Caesar and Mark Anthony's hearts??? :laugh2: that's why they are still logical to have diplomatic skills...

Or the ability to "steal" away enemy generals without takin any money or factional standing (have my gens and FM "stolen" by rival princess)... they are just fine... and especialy I laugh with Tears when my 10 stars Guillemot de Lyon decide to leave me because he marry a beautiful Milan Princess... when he was allready 58 years old (at least he does deserve a companionship with 19 y (the last time I see that princess) :smile: )

[antisocialmunky]

I think its more for the diplomatic marriages of the AS and Ptolies.

[Sarkiss]

There is still some debate on the issue (particularly with regards certain aspects of their abilities), but at the moment they are still in.

Foot

they, as we all know, do two things:
1. engage in diplomacy as diplomat would
2. can be married off to a general. not necessarily an alien general but your own who got dubious loyalty but otherwise good traits. it may be a very important move too, especially if you're playing a small faction with only couple of FMs
but there is a third thing that i wasnt aware of until yesterday and that outweighs the first two. you can also get a marriage alliance with another faction if its leader is single. and that is "stronger than a regular alliance".
i didnt even know that was possible and considered princesses as another addition that does really add much to the game. but with this new discovered feature things start to look very different and reflect true state of affairs.

[Apraxiteles]

Unfortunately, removing their diplomatic ability would almost certainly eliminate their most useful feature, the marriage alliance. Unless this is changeable somehow, the only way to marry a princess is to enter diplomacy directly with her.

[Sarkiss]

Unfortunately, removing their diplomatic ability would almost certainly eliminate their most useful feature, the marriage alliance. Unless this is changeable somehow, the only way to marry a princess is to enter diplomacy directly with her.
nope. diplomats do that (option appears) when you get a princess and faction have a single FL.

[Prussian to the Iron]

but there is a third thing that i wasnt aware of until yesterday and that outweighs the first two. you can also get a marriage alliance with another faction if its leader is single. and that is "stronger than a regular alliance".
.
you can also marry them to another factions prince and gain an alliance.

[antisocialmunky]

Can we roleplay Ptolemy and marry our own princesses for children with funny shaped heads?

[satalexton]

maybe we can modify them into princes....and have them 'sent over' as hostages...

[Ibrahim]

Can we roleplay Ptolemy and marry our own princesses for children with funny shaped heads?

:laugh4:

I say use them as they were used in the day: for marriege, diplocy, or even, as this sheenius here suggests, incest.:clown:

[miotas]

Being able to marry my 3x10 mercenary general into the family sounds pretty good to me.

[Apraxiteles]

nope. diplomats do that (option appears) when you get a princess and faction have a single FL.

Do you mean having your diplomat negotiate with a foreign diplomat? Because I know that directing a diplomat to a foreign city or unit does not give you the option. I remember having to chase down foreign princesses to ask for their hand as they tromped all over Europe. I never bothered to contact foreign diplomats about it though, as they were usually even more elusive than foreign princesses. If you are correct, how do you chose which one you get to marry? There are often multiple ones per faction, and some of them you decidedly do not want to marry into your family.

[miotas]

Do you mean having your diplomat negotiate with a foreign diplomat? Because I know that directing a diplomat to a foreign city or unit does not give you the option. I remember having to chase down foreign princesses to ask for their hand as they tromped all over Europe. I never bothered to contact foreign diplomats about it though, as they were usually even more elusive than foreign princesses. If you are correct, how do you chose which one you get to marry? There are often multiple ones per faction, and some of them you decidedly do not want to marry into your family.

Town, FM, diplomat, all can be approached for a marriage alliance by either your own princess or diplomat. I'm not sure how the princess is chosen but it's probably just the eldest that will be married, as regular marriages usually go from oldest to youngest.

[Horatius Flaccus]

I'm pretty sure that Apraxiteles is right, you can't marry your princess unless the princess is taking part in the negotiation.

[Cute Wolf]

Yepp, the princess need to be present in the "diplomatic meetings". But if that princess was just sitting down in your capital, and some foreign diplomat talk to your capital (or another city with princess "in"... the options is present...) Well, for the easier game's sake... let's pump out their natural charm... as the ai princess (which didn't built enough infrastructures....) only got 2 or 3 charm... painful for your FL or FH, if he has ugly wife..... (better die in the fromt of sarrisae / pikes, rather than have "hideous" princess as wife :laugh4:)

[Sarkiss]

Town, FM, diplomat, all can be approached for a marriage alliance by either your own princess or diplomat. I'm not sure how the princess is chosen but it's probably just the eldest that will be married, as regular marriages usually go from oldest to youngest.

yep, you're right.

there was only 1 princess so i got no idea about which one gets married if you got a few, the one with higher charisma i'd think.
if that faction's leader is single and you got a princess an option will appear in diplomacy scroll, an offer to marry off your princess to their FL.

[Skullheadhq]

Ow didn't know that, you learn something different every day.

[helenos aiakides]

Could there be a princess ancilliary, which spawened with FM and can be givin to other members of faction to marry, (wait:there is no way that could work)

[Space_Ed]

Just a nice model for a Persian princess...
http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/upload/ana_cute.jpg

Another problem with this girl is that shes quite dark skinned. The arabs didnt invade Persia until centuries later. I think there probably must have been girls that look like her in Persia but I think most ethnic original Persians are basically white but with different shaped eyes and lips. Sorry for generalizing but yeh that girl is not what a Persian princess would have looked like.. I'll find a better one...

[Space_Ed]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Portrait_of_a_Persian_lady_in_Iran,_10-08-2006.jpg

http://ivmp.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/movajeheh_nusha_zeighami.jpg

Ignoring the head scarves these two look more like how I reckon ur average Persian would have looked like. Not as dark and arab-looking as some of the modern day Iranians.

Anyway after reading through the thread I think that princesses generally add more to the game play but the rules for each faction should be different i.e. a preference to marry into a certain faction i.e. greek to greek but no desire to marry into another faction i.e. roman to german. If this can't be done I think some factions should not be allowed to have princesses e.g the Romans and nomads.

What does FM mean? Thanks

[Alsatia]

FM = Family Member.

[Subotan]

Surely the ethnicity of "Original" (Ugh, so clumsy) would be closer to say, Pashtuns or Baluchis rather than just white?

[Space_Ed]

Surely the ethnicity of "Original" (Ugh, so clumsy) would be closer to say, Pashtuns or Baluchis rather than just white?


Definately but you know what I'm on about.

[Cyclops]

Quality post by K.


A quick look at the Diadochoi kingdoms will tell you otherwise. The early Ptolemies & Seleukids married their daughters here and there. Antiochos III had a Pontic princess as wife, Hierax had a Bithynian (or maybe Pontic as well), Attalos I's mother might have been Seleukid too. Ptolemaiois I was married at first with a daughter of Antipater (who seemed to marry his daughters off to most power players). Pontic Kings had wives from the Seleukid royal house as well...

..so its very useful to have dynastic/alliance marriages in game at least among the Diadochi/Persian fragments.


...The Roman nobility though did not marry outside the Roman families or at least it was almost taboo to do so, case in point being Caesar & Mark Anthony's relationship to Cleopatra. Ptolemaiois V or VI wanted to marry a prominent Roman noblewoman, but the sources say she refused to marry a foreigner which apparently won her much renown in Rome itself. So at least marriages between Romans & other factions should not be ingame...

I believe Roman women did marry provincials including ones with Greek culture, but this may be from Tacitus rather despairing view of the somewhat decadent Principate rather than the EB period middleto late Republic.

Was Mark Antony seduced into the Ptomaic faction? Augustus' propaganda might insist he was no longer a real Roman, but he still led legions. I can't think of a single general changing sides for sex (but see Syphax below).

If we buy Octavian's guff this might be modelled by MA marrying (being seduced by) Kleopatra: except she was a bit old to be a princess still, and he ws already married etc etc.


...As for the remaining factions, from what I gather marriages between them would not be looked down upon, as Hannibal & Hasdrubal both had Iberian princesses at least. Celts & Germans I have no idea on, but considering Celts intermarried with peoples they conquered and/or settled with I would take an educated guess and say they would not find it problematic.

The one I always think of is Sophonisba marrying Syphax to bring the Numidians back into the Karthi fold (this is a FL and his faction changing sides for sex, not a general/FM). Karthis did marry out, unlike the socially xenophobic, politically inclusive Romani.

There seems to be solid defensible arguments for including princesses as alliance/loyalty tools (esp in the east ) "seducers" (a few dubious examples) and freebie diplomats: to my mind the last one is the least likely but can you switch it off and keep the seducer or marriage proposal aspect on?

[Cyclops]

Definately but you know what I'm on about.

Weren't the Persians Iranian settled among darker-skinned Elamites? IIRC Elamites are of a piece with coastal peoples running around to the Punjab, so I guess there were lighter and darker skinned Persians then as now.

Perhaps there was less of a "Turkish" (turkmen? Mongol?) look about back then (was it before the shift of mongol peoples from NE asia into the centre?) who knows?

Just a guess.

Lots of dark skinned folks across the ancient world, whether negroid or north african or proto-dravidian types. Sulpicius Niger suggest a dark skinned romani, wasn't Cadmus black (or quite dark)?

[Subotan]

Surely the purpose of marriages between nations was to strengthen ties between those nations, in the event that they both be inherited by the same monarch? Seeing as how the TW engine cannot represent this, isn't the question of whether they can/should be used irrelevant, seeing as how they cannot be used to their true potential?

[abou]

Surely the purpose of marriages between nations was to strengthen ties between those nations, in the event that they both be inherited by the same monarch? Seeing as how the TW engine cannot represent this, isn't the question of whether they can/should be used irrelevant, seeing as how they cannot be used to their true potential?Marriage wasn't used to create convoluted inheritances the way it would be later. It was mainly used politically to strengthen ties. The Seleukids were pretty good at this for a long time and we have a lot of examples, but any monarchy would be capable of similar things.

[Tyrfingr]

Can we roleplay Ptolemy and marry our own princesses for children with funny shaped heads?

:laugh4:

Suggestion for trait:

Inbred retard - The eyes are a little too close, and why is he growing horns? Maybe having your father marrying your mother (his sister) might not have been the best idea... (-9 in fertility or whatever makes the bastard sterile, -9 intelligence).

[Cyclops]

Marriage wasn't used to create convoluted inheritances the way it would be later. It was mainly used politically to strengthen ties. The Seleukids were pretty good at this for a long time and we have a lot of examples, but any monarchy would be capable of similar things.

Yes the Makedonian model of Kingship was in practice not straight patrilineal primogeniture, and minorities often ended in usurpation: Philip's rise was as typical as Alexander's.

The Ptolmaic incest solution gave stability at a price, potentially an horrific genetic price, although Kleopatra was able and attractive, if big-nosed. Were the Ptollies less diplomatically engaged by tying up princesses in-house? In any case the inbreds lasted longest of the major Diadochi, so there was something to it.

Marriages were all about alliance and rarely about setting up larger inheritable patrimonies. Kingdoms like Armenia with chip traded or usurped at least as often as they were inherited.

[antisocialmunky]

They lasted the longest because they were the farthest away form Rome. They couldn't even militarily resist the Romans at the end of it.

[Subotan]

They lasted the longest because they were the farthest away form Rome.

Baktria? Mauryans?

[antisocialmunky]

That statement obviously applies to the Successors that fell to Rome. Don't purposely ignore the context to pretend to be smart, you're not fooling anyone.

[Cute Wolf]

I Think I will post a pool for anyone to see, which factions that may have princess.

[Cyclops]

They lasted the longest because they were the farthest away form Rome...

...but also because they were sensible enough not to tread on Rome's toes? The Antigonids, Seleucids and (to a much lesser extent) Pyrrhus' family all found dynastic claims on territory the Romans fancied dragged them into wars with the republic that fatally crippled or killed them.

The Ptolemies had long-standing claims in Asia minor and Greece (the same as the Antigonids, Attalids, Seleucids etc) but avoided open conflict with Rome until Kleopatra married a Roman, embroiling her dynsaty in the civil wars.

Yes the Romes salami'd the diadochi to death, and Alexandria is further down the sausage than Pella, so there is a fundamental truth to what you say. In one sense Kleopatra's relations with Caesar probably delayed the end, because the Romans were spreading over the East in fits and starts and would continue until Hadrian drew the line. A short affair with a great man may have added decades to the Dynasty's survival, very much a diplomatic relationship.

Its a shame the game mechanic is unable to represent the actions of such an interesting historical figure, arguably an able faction leader, except as a princess limited to a few diplomatic actions.

[Space_Ed]

Maybe they should be called 'ladies' as opposed to 'princesses' i.e. Roman Lady, Ptolemaic Lady etc. That might be a bit more accurate. If they could have their personality traits modded so that they each have their own individual tastes in certain types of men I think that is a dynamic that would work relatively well.

I.e. A late period Roman Lady would never marry a man from a weak german tribe. Initially Ptolemaic Ladies probably wouldn't want to marry a Roman but would be more inclined if the Romans became stronger.

[moonburn]

there´s also the problem of the amazons

since a schytian princess was expected to fight if necessary (i believe this was where the lgend of the amazons was born??)

so a nomadic princess would have it´s own unit :laugh4:

[Tyrfingr]

there´s also the problem of the amazons

since a schytian princess was expected to fight if necessary (i believe this was where the lgend of the amazons was born??)

so a nomadic princess would have it´s own unit :laugh4:
http://crayz.org/images/facepalm.jpg

[moonburn]

http://crayz.org/images/facepalm.jpg

good thing we where all born reading the books :book: and always checking our sources :laugh4:

now please explain why is it dumb :help:

(the amount of smileys used represent my current unconfortable position of being considered dumb in this probable sucefull attempt at ridicule of a noob enthusiast )

[Azathoth]

Suggestion for trait:

Inbred retard - The eyes are a little too close, and why is he growing horns? Maybe having your father marrying your mother (his sister) might not have been the best idea... (-9 in fertility or whatever makes the bastard sterile, -9 intelligence).

Lol, one or even a few generations of inbreeding doesn't turn a family into monkeys or subhumans (unless they live in one of Lovecraft's short stories).

[Megas Methuselah]

Is it even possible to mod the game in such a way as to allow a princess to marry her sibling(s), aside from modifying a savegame?