\"Refuse the flank!\"

[BlackWatch McKenna]

TACTICAL THOUGHTS:
When determining my Order of Battle, i rely solely on western military philoslopy for my physical troop deployment.

STRATEGIC THOUGHTS:
However, when it comes to marching around the field, laying ambushes, getting inside my opponents feeble mind, etc., i rely primarily on eastern philosophy. In particular, Musashi's Book o' Five Rings.

ART O' WAR:
I mean, its an art, not a science, afterall. Does anyone else experience this phenomenon? The shift from Eastern to Western thinking during the course of one battle?

I mean, pre-battle, i am all "ox's head, rat's neck"; but for meeting the enemy, it is Roman Cohorts + Frederick the Great + Hannibal all the way. This method works great for me (i guess its my interpretation of the Art O War).

So, I pose this question: Being a westerner (meanign Europa and America), and having studied primarily the history of western warfare, am i being close minded by not employing Eastern orders of battle on the field?

Perhaps some of our Eastern members could direct me to some good reading on Eastern orders of battle, etc. Mayhaps a nice book with great descriptions of far-east battles that this Southern Californian would NEVER have heard of.

Man - i dont want to be ethno-centric.

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// Black
// "Did we win?"

[This message has been edited by BlackWatch McKenna (edited 05-10-2001).]

[CaPeFeAr]

the western philosophy of "who gets there first with the most usually wins" is very realalistic in this game. also....when engaged in a missle battle...the western ideas about artilary and massed firepower work very well.

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[Kraellin]

frankly, i prefer the 'Elmarkian' philosophy, throw yourself at the enemy and have a good footwear contract ;)

K.

[Vanya]

Wise man once say: "If you strive to think during battle, you will find yourself dead before you can formulate your first thought."

Thus, I agree with the Elmarkian teachings: "A mindless, bloodthirsty mob storming the enemy in chaotic disarray yields victory over those frozen in the grips of reason amidst the entropic madhouse of battle."

[ElmarkOFear]

Wow, The Tao of Elmarko!! I never realized my panicky mob technique had a zen aspect to it!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif Here's to the first man off the field of battle! CHEERS

[CaptMac]

Works well with a good rebel yell!

Sorry Black..your thread seems to gone astray

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The only thing you have to regret are the chances not taken.
Expect the unexpected and take in air.

[Alastair]

LOL!!! ROFLMAO!!

[maroberts]

Actually I must say that my defensive strategy is little more than 'sit on a big hill, and when your archers have fired all their arrows, charge in the general direction of the nearest enemy unit'. The resulting screaming mob heading downhill seems to rout the enemy within seconds.

Works most of the time, since you can't do much as the attacker, when all your units are busy fighting for their lives.

[shingenmitch2]

MARO -- you must be playing REALLY good players then. Hope to see you online soon, lol.

Perhaps me and Elms can show you our retreat techniques, hehe

[maroberts]

Nope, unfortunately I can't get online as I have a computer acting as a proxy server/firewall, so the strategy I suggested is tried and tested just against the AI.

I would be interested to know how a human player responds to my defence style. I suspect:

a) I'm slightly guilty of what is known as "camping". I don't sit in corners, but if the only hill in town is at the back I'll use it

b) a human with unlimited time would not commit all his forces to the offence at once. And try and tempt me off my nice safe hill before I'm ready.

[Brown Wolf]

Quote Originally posted by BlackWatch McKenna:
TACTICAL THOUGHTS:
When determining my Order of Battle, i rely solely on western military philoslopy for my physical troop deployment.

STRATEGIC THOUGHTS:
However, when it comes to marching around the field, laying ambushes, getting inside my opponents feeble mind, etc., i rely primarily on eastern philosophy. In particular, Musashi's Book o' Five Rings.

ART O' WAR:
I mean, its an art, not a science, afterall. Does anyone else experience this phenomenon? The shift from Eastern to Western thinking during the course of one battle?

I mean, pre-battle, i am all "ox's head, rat's neck"; but for meeting the enemy, it is Roman Cohorts + Frederick the Great + Hannibal all the way. This method works great for me (i guess its my interpretation of the Art O War).

So, I pose this question: Being a westerner (meanign Europa and America), and having studied primarily the history of western warfare, am i being close minded by not employing Eastern orders of battle on the field?

Perhaps some of our Eastern members could direct me to some good reading on Eastern orders of battle, etc. Mayhaps a nice book with great descriptions of far-east battles that this Southern Californian would NEVER have heard of.

Man - i dont want to be ethno-centric.

[/QUOTE]

Don't worry so much, its just a game. Besides military tacktics are just are good as long as they work!

I wish they would enable html in here!
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif


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"Failure is not an option"

[Kraellin]

i read that book, elmo! but all i had was the Polish translation. perhaps you can help me out with a few things. what does, 'walking towards your enemy backwards' mean? and why would you, 'change your uniform on the battlefield'? and why is it 'never necessary to wear clean underwear to a battle'? and are 'Nike' and 'Adidas' relatives or just friends of yours? and why in the world does 'investing in rubber' have anything to do with winning? i sorta understood the part about 'investing in your enemy's holdings', but not all of it. but why do you advise your troops 'dont quit your day jobs'? but the most confusing to me was 'always show them your backside'. is this some sort of new tactic i've not heard of before? is it like mooning?

like i said, the translation was in Polish and i'm sure i've got some of that wrong. oh, and why did the publisher (Ken U. C. Mytail, inc.) disavow knowing you? or was that a typo or did i just translate it incorrectly?

K.

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inquiring minds want to know.... (they're just too stupid to find out.)

[ElmarkOFear]

Kra the Polish version is an exact word-for-word translation. The walking backwards towards the enemy strategy, can only be used on an army of ashigaru, since they are not the brightest bulbs on the field. They tend to think they have the enemy on the run even though they fail to notice that the enemy is getting nearer until my army is behind them. I have heard these same ashigarus shouting . . "We would have won if we hadn't overrun them!" Never fully realizing that they never moved at all. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
The "changing of uniform on the battlefield" strategy is best used when fighting against a monk rush . . Half of my army will change into Geisha outfits and flag down any passing monk units. Since these little buggers have made a vow of celibacy, they either run away from temptation ( thus leaving the battlefield) or they succumb to my troops sexy facades and chase them into the other half of my waiting army. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif But be careful once the fighting is over, there seems to be a lot more "Fraternization" amongst the troops lately. Which is sort of disconcerting since they are a strictly male army!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
The underwear and Nike strategy you are well aware of. :P My men run faster off of field and the trail and smell left behind from the dirty underwear will insure that very few of the enemy will follow us.
"Investing in rubber" is in reference to my Geisha's term for planned parenthood. LOL
"Showing them your backside," is used while camping on a hill. It is guaranteed to enrage the enemy (or turn them on!) forcing them to rush our impenetrable defenses to "spank us badly". So even if my men lose the battle, they will save themselves a lot of money with the free spanking!! (Normally they have to pay for one) http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
My apologies to Black for absconding with his post. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif The Orders Of Battle (OoB) are not as important in this game, unlike games like Panzer General2, Combat Mission, and other war games. One reason is the limited number of troop types in the game and the other is the limited range of most of the weapons used at the time. Almost all battles consist of missile troops firing away at each other and then a final mass charge by one of the opponents. Pretty simple in context, but learning how honor works and the strenghts and weaknesses of each unit, will determine your success, more than the OoB will. Good luck my friend, if you ever run across a book entitled the "Tao of Elmarko", burn it immediately, before it can cause any more harm!!! LOL

[Kraellin]

ah, i see. well, thank you for the clarifications. that helps immensely!

now, if you could kindly send my monks back home i would greatly appreciate it. a number of them seem to have mysteriously gone missing after our last battle and they need to return home now.

i will continue my readings and translations of your fine book and hope that you will continue to help me out with this from time to time.

K.

btw, the publisher's name was Kan U. C. Mytail, not Ken. ;)

[Shuko]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kraellin:
[B]i will continue my readings and translations of your fine book and hope that you will continue to help me out with this from time to time.

I have a copy of this book but it is in Swahili. To be truthful I can't get past the chapter about the cavalary charging the tanks, fascinating stuff and so well written.

The only problem now is finding the part explaining how to get your retreating YA to 'tempt' the W/M's into leaving the battlefield with them.

[ElmarkOFear]

You must place a banana between your yari ashigaru's naked buttocks, to entice the monks to follow you . . . err wait that's monkeys . . sorry . . too much info. there . . . Oh well it may work with monks as well, let me know how it all work out IN THE END" LOL

[Kraellin]

elm,

all we could find were watermelon. after we got the ashi tied up it seemed to work ok.

now, that reminds me of a joke...there were 3 traveling salesmen who stopped at a farmer's house to see if they could spend the night......

K.

[Shuko]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kraellin:
...there were 3 traveling salesmen who stopped at a farmer's house to see if they could spend the night......


Don't tell me.They were fast asleep when suddenly twelve ashigarus (Japanese wise men) rushed them. In the battle the salesmen used real weapons whilst the ashigaru only fruit weapons. The salesmen were so scared of what the ashigarus could do with the fruit that they were forced to call the farmer's fifteen year old daughter for help. When she entered the fray and disrobed 'fifteen' ashigarus died in the rush. For days after this epic battle the farmer was puzzled why so much of the fruit seemed to be partially fermented. His daughter was very disappointed with the battle, her mother told her this was the normal thing http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif.

[The Storyteller]

Well, I'm a Singaporean Chinese, so I guess I might be able to offer a fresh perspective on this...

I think the main thing to remember is that a lot of what the Chinese and Japanese wrote about war was influenced greatly by Taoism and Zen Buddhism. These stress a whole lot of mystical mumbo jumbo which seems self contradictory at first glance, but which actually makes a lot of sense.

Besides, translations from Japanese and Chinese are really, really difficult... if you get literal translations you end up with a lot of meaningless gibberish.

So my advice is to get a good translation of 1. Sun Tzu's Art of War
and
2. Romance of the Three Kingdoms

The Romance of the Three Kingdoms is basically a history of a period in China when it was fragmented and constantly at war with itself. There's a truckload of battle scenarios in there.

Another book you might get is Heroes of the Marsh, sometimes known as Heroes of Liang Shan Po. This again features a truck load of battle scenarios which will come in handy.

There is another less well known Chinese treatise written by Sun Pin, Sun Tzu's descendant. Definitely worth a read if you have the time.

I think the difference between Western Science of war and Eastern Art of war is that the western view presents itself as very cut and dried - a series of rules to be followed. The Eastern view is much more fluid, allowing for the breaking of these rules.

Any fool who learns the rules of grammar and language can write a reasonable book. But to write a truly great book requires flair, talent, and a knowledge of when to break the rules of grammar and language. Same with being great general.

Whether you follow the Western path or the Eastern path, the end result should still be the same, just that the path you take will be different.

If you follow every rule of Western military science, then with experience you should learn when you can break them, or apply them to different situations differently. You should be able to see that the rules, as they are written, are able to be applied on so many levels that you eventually end up with a very dynamic style of play, much in the same way the basic structure of an essay can be made simpler and simpler till it is reduced to beginning, middle and end, with infinite variations on each.

If you take the Eastern style, then you will always bear in mind that this state of simplicity is what you strive to achieve, and thus will work at applying tons and tons of mumbo jombo to this effect. You'll always think of an essay in terms of beginning, middle and end, keep trying, hand up a lot of crap, until one day you suddenly achieve that state of mind that allows you to write like Shakespeare.

Jolly good luck...

[Vanya]

Whoa! We are in Japan here, fellas. No Shakespear here! Its Shakeyari!

I apply neither Western nor Eastern philosophies. Instead, I go about fighting my wars by implementing the theories of non-violence. My troops are not given swords, which could be used to impart physical harm on fellow samurai pig-dogs, but instead fruits, silks, and little bobbing-head Buddhas... so that they can close ranks with the enemy and grace them with their generosity. And I send my Ashigaru into battle naked, so that they will not reflect any clan affiliation. Thus, my battles usually degrade into a nice big picnic, with lots of fruit and peasants swapping life experiences.