Sir Beane
12-22-2008, 15:23
It's been a while since we have had an active thread with some decent speculation about the naval side of things.
Specifically I want to talk about naval units. There's been a lot of discussion about things such as the mechanics of naval battles, or the tactical importance, but not so much about the things that will be fighting them.
I want to see if we can construct an accurate list of all the ships that will be included in Empire. Since there won't be as many as land units it should be perfectly possible. :laugh4:
It would also be nice if we could dig up some info on some of the lesser known, but interesting, ships which might make it into the game as exotic units. (Such as rocket ships).
Possible List of Ships in Empire - This is an informed best guess, not confirmed info
These ships are listed in descending order of power (size and armament) until I can think of a better way of doing it. This order won't be perfect btw, feel free to offer corrections.
Ships of the Line
H.M.S Victory
Britain only. I am assuming Victory will be stronger than average given its status as a Special Forces unit.
140 gun first-rate ship of the line
The French ship Valmy was an example of this sort of ship. It was the biggest lineship ever built. My reason for including this class is that I think I saw ships this size mentioned in one of the many previews.
First rate ship of the line, a.ka Man-o-war.
100 +Guns, 3 gun decks + forecastle and quarterdeck 850 to 875 crew. 2000 tons+. Presumably all playable factions.
Second rate ship of the line
90 to 98 guns, 3 Gun decks + forecastle and quarterdeck, 700 to 750 crew, about 2000 tons. Presumably all playable factions.
Third rate ship of the line
64 to 80 Guns, 2 Gun decks (or 3 early on), 500 to 650 crew, 1300-1600 tons.
Presumably all playable factions.
Fourth rate ship of the line
50 to 60 guns, 2 Gun decks, 320 to 420 crew about 1000 tons.
Presumably all playable factions.
Fifth rate
We have some overlap with frigates here, as frigates could be classed as fifth rate, along with small two deck cruisers. 32 to 40 Guns, 1 Gun deck, 200 to 300 crew, 700 to 1450 tons.
Presumably all playable factions.
Sixth rate
Again we have some overlap here. This class could include small friagates, Corvettes, and some of the larger sloops of war. 20 to 28 guns, 1 Gun deck, 140 to 200 Crew, 450 to 550 tons.
Presumably all playable factions.
Interceptors/Ship of the line support
Most of these ships would ne classed as fifth or sixth raters. I'm still gonig to give them there own seperate sections though.
U.S.S Constitution
Stronger than average for the same reasons as Victory.
Razee
A razee is a robust frigate, created by cutting the top deck off a larger ship of the line.
Frigates are a vital part of any balanced sea-going fleet. They are cruisers that can operate independently and are swift enough to hunt down enemy merchantmen. the chance for prize money makes them popular postings among officers and men alike!
One way of creating a large, powerful frigate is to take a two-deck ship of the line and, in effect, saw off the top deck creating a single-deck frigate. The first result is that a 64-gun ship can now only carry 44 guns, but the ones that remain are the heavier than those normally found on a frigate, typically 32- or 24-pounders rather than the expected 18s! The second result is that the razee retains the strong timbers of the original 64, making it a robust ship in combat. Thirdly, having lost its upper works, the new ship generally handles rather well under sail. All this work takes time and valuable dock space, of course.
Historically, one of the most successful razees was HMS Indefatigable, commanded by Edward Pellew. In the company of another frigate, Pellew took on - and defeated - the Droits de l'Homme, a French 74, in 1797. During the next year or so, Pellew and the Indefatigable went on to take a further nine vessels. (Credit to CA)
All playable factions.
Frigate
Fast, versatile ship designed to intercept and outfight anything but a lineship.
Frigates are single-deck warships, used for a variety of tasks thanks to a combination of good handling, firepower and endurance at sea.
“Fifth rate” is a Royal Navy term for the largest of the single-deck frigates, square-rigged ships that carry some 44 guns, usually no heavier than 12-pounders. Originally a French design – but quickly adopted by the other European powers – the frigate is used for pursuit, convoy protection, commerce raiding and reconnaissance work. The design’s excellent sailing characteristics and good handling, especially in inshore waters, make it a useful addition to any blockading fleet. The frigate’s ability to operate far away from a home port also makes them it a useful cruiser, carrying the fight to the enemy in unexpected waters.
Frigates can have the advantage over larger, two-deck ships in rough waters. A frigate captain rarely has to worry about his gun deck taking on water, and can therefore fight in conditions that leave bigger ships at a disadvantage. However, fifth rates are not powerful enough to face battleships. They have the speed and handling to stay out of trouble; they do not have the strength of construction to survive a pounding! Against sloops, brigs and merchantmen, however, they are deadly. This makes them excellent postings for officers hungry for prize money and glory.
Frigates captains made splendid role models for fictional heroes: Thomas, Lord Cochrane earned a fortune in prize money, gained the nickname “le loup des mers” (sea-wolf) and was the inspiration for fictional heroes Horatio Hornblower and Jack Aubrey. (Credit to CA)
All factions.
Corvette/Corvair
(An interesting little ship. This class started out as s small boat withno more than ten guns but ended up developing into something only slightly smaller than a Frigate, carrying upto 24 guns. All factions. (Credit to Asmodius)
Warships not commonly used in a line of battle
Galleon
Old, outdated ship, definitely Spain and Portugal, possibly all European powers.
Caravel
Old, outdated exploration vessel, Spain, Portugal.
Oarships
Galley
Lateen rigged Mediterranean ship which can be rowed.
probably Ottoman Empire, Sweden,
Russia, Denmark and Norway, Poland-Lithuania, Venice, other Baltic and Med factions.
Xebec
Lateen rigged Mediterranean ship designed for large crews and high speed.
Ottoman Empire.
Galleass
They were larger and had more sail than true galleys..as well as much more firepower. They were more sailing centered than rowing ....which had its disadvantages as well. This was one of the precusors to what became the square rigged man-of-war.
Basically this ship is a heavy galley. It will probably be seen around the Med area for a few factions. (Credit to Asmodius)
Ottaman Empire.
Exotic/Uncommon
Rocket ship
Long range artillery designed to set ships on fire.
Definitely U.S.A, almost certainly
Britain, probably other European powers.
Fire ship or bomb ship
Sacrificial ship designed to sail to the enemy and destroy itself.
All playable factions
Steamship
Lategame ship powered by both sails and steam powered paddles. Can sail against the wind with reasonable speed. Will likely come in a variety of shapes and sizes.
All playable factions.
Trading Vessels, Transport Ships
East Indiamen
Were large sailing vessel of the type built from the 16th to the 19th century for the trade between Europe and southern Asia. The first were Portuguese and Dutch; English Indiamen appeared late in the 16th century and eventually came to dominate the trade. The ships varied in size from about 400 to 1,500 tons and more; often they were larger than contemporary men-of-war. They were three-masted and invariably well armed for protection against piracy.
East Indiamen were designed to carry both passengers and goods and to defend themselves against piracy, and so constituted a special class of ship. In the period of the Napoleonic Wars they were often painted to resemble warships, an attacker could not be sure if gunports were real or merely paint, and some carried sizeable armaments. A number of these ships were in fact acquired by the Royal Navy, and in some cases they successfully fought off attacks by the French. One of the most celebrated of these incidents occurred in 1804, when a fleet of East Indiamen and other merchant vessels successfully fought off a marauding squadron commanded by Admiral Linois in the Indian Ocean. The event is dramatised in Patrick O'Brian's novel HMS Surprise.
East Indiamen were the largest merchant ships regularly built during the late 18th and early 19th centuries, generally measuring between 1100 and 1400 registered tons. Two of the largest were the Earl of Mansfield and Lascelles being built at Deptford in 1795. Both were purchased by the Royal Navy, completed as 56-gun Fourth Rate Ships of the Line, and renamed Weymouth and Madras respectively. They measured 1426 tons on dimensions of approximately 175 feet overall length of hull, 144 feet keel, 43 feet beam, 17 feet draft. (Credit to Fisherking)
England, United Provinces, Portugal.
Transport Ships
Merchantmen pressed into service as troop transports. Lightly armed or unarmed trading vessels.
All playable factions. (Credit to Fisherking)
Escort Ships/Messengers/Small support craft
Sloop-of-war
In the 18th and the earlier part of the 19th centuries, a sloop-of-war was a small sailing warship (also known as one of the escort types) with a single gun deck that carried anything up to eighteen cannon. As the rating system covered all vessels with 20 guns and above, this meant that the term sloop-of-war actually encompassed all the unrated combat vessels including the very small gun-brigs and cutters. In technical terms, even the more specialised bomb vessels and fireships were classed as sloops-of-war, and in practice these were actually employed in the sloop role when not carrying out their specialized functions. (Credit to Fisherking)
A sloop of war is usually ketch-rigged with two masts. These small vessels handle well in restricted waters.
The ability to navigate in exceptionally shallow or dangerous waters makes sloops very useful in such seas as the reef-strewn waters of the Caribbean. They can also operate without the need for extensive onshore naval facilities nearby. They are also extremely useful as fleet auxiliaries, carrying out communications tasks and vital inshore scouting work, and can hunt down smaller prey such as privateers and small enemy cargo vessels. A sloop-of-war (sometimes a corvette in French service) is a different vessel from a civilian, merchant sloop, having a flush deck, two square-rigged masts, guns, and a larger crew.
Historically, a post captain would rarely command a ship this small. The commanding officer was the “master and commander” (this is the origin of the modern naval rank of commander), and held the formal rank of lieutenant. Captain Cook RN commanded HMS Resolution, a sloop converted from a collier (coal ship), on his epic Pacific voyages and was highly satisfied with its performance. Sloop captains could be aggressive: before his promotion to post captain, Thomas Cochrane commanded the 14-gun HMS Speedy and managed to capture “El Gamo”, a Spanish xebec of 32 guns with a crew six times larger than his own! (Credit to CA)
All playable factions.
Gunboat
A gunboat was usually a small undecked vessel carrying a single smoothbore cannon in the bow, or just two or three such cannons. A gunboat could carry one or two masts or be oar-powered only, but the single-masted version of about 50 ft length was most typical. Some types of gunboats carried two cannons, or else mounted a number of swivel guns on the railings.
The advantages of this type of gunboat were that since it only carried a single cannon, that cannon could be quite heavy -- for instance a 32-pounder -- and that the boat could be maneuvered in shallow or restricted waters, where sailing was difficult for larger ships. A single hit from a frigate would demolish a gunboat, but a frigate facing a half-dozen gunboats in an estuary would likely be seriously damaged before it could manage to sink all of them. Gunboats were also easy and quick to build; the combatants in the 1776 Battle of Valcour Island on New York's Lake Champlain were mostly gunboats built on the spot.(Credit to Fisherking)
Dinghy
There has always been a need for small tender boats for transporting goods and personnel to and from anchored sailing ships.
(Hope we see them for the lakes and rivers as military transport…at least in North America) (Credit to Fisherking)
Canoe
Probably a long shot, unless we see combat on rivers and lakes.
Canoes are shallow-draft boats with a fine, delicate shape. Their perfect hydrodynamic form has a lot in common with the Viking ship. One advantage over a rowboat is that the paddler faces the direction he's going. Most Indian canoes were small, light, and fast. They'd carry a few people rapidly up and down rivers and lakes. The Iroquois built big, 30-foot-long freight-carrying canoes that could haul 18 passengers or a ton of merchandise. But even they could be portaged (carried over land) by just three people. (Credit to Fisherking)
As you can see the list is limited at the moment. I’m afraid my knowledge relating to the Eastern factions is a little poor, especially India. Any help fleshing out this list is appreciated.
If you want to propose a ship try nad add a little info to your post to explain why you think it will be included. I’ll update the OP as and when new info becomes available or people think of some good ideas. I myself willl be doing a little research to try and improve the list.
As we go on I will try and write a little bit of info for each ship to describe it’s appearance, power, and role in naval warfare.
If this list is good enough then players unfamiliar with the exciting world of fighting sail can use it as a beginners guide to ship classes and roles. :2thumbsup:
Get cracking! :beam::whip:
Specifically I want to talk about naval units. There's been a lot of discussion about things such as the mechanics of naval battles, or the tactical importance, but not so much about the things that will be fighting them.
I want to see if we can construct an accurate list of all the ships that will be included in Empire. Since there won't be as many as land units it should be perfectly possible. :laugh4:
It would also be nice if we could dig up some info on some of the lesser known, but interesting, ships which might make it into the game as exotic units. (Such as rocket ships).
Possible List of Ships in Empire - This is an informed best guess, not confirmed info
These ships are listed in descending order of power (size and armament) until I can think of a better way of doing it. This order won't be perfect btw, feel free to offer corrections.
Ships of the Line
H.M.S Victory
Britain only. I am assuming Victory will be stronger than average given its status as a Special Forces unit.
140 gun first-rate ship of the line
The French ship Valmy was an example of this sort of ship. It was the biggest lineship ever built. My reason for including this class is that I think I saw ships this size mentioned in one of the many previews.
First rate ship of the line, a.ka Man-o-war.
100 +Guns, 3 gun decks + forecastle and quarterdeck 850 to 875 crew. 2000 tons+. Presumably all playable factions.
Second rate ship of the line
90 to 98 guns, 3 Gun decks + forecastle and quarterdeck, 700 to 750 crew, about 2000 tons. Presumably all playable factions.
Third rate ship of the line
64 to 80 Guns, 2 Gun decks (or 3 early on), 500 to 650 crew, 1300-1600 tons.
Presumably all playable factions.
Fourth rate ship of the line
50 to 60 guns, 2 Gun decks, 320 to 420 crew about 1000 tons.
Presumably all playable factions.
Fifth rate
We have some overlap with frigates here, as frigates could be classed as fifth rate, along with small two deck cruisers. 32 to 40 Guns, 1 Gun deck, 200 to 300 crew, 700 to 1450 tons.
Presumably all playable factions.
Sixth rate
Again we have some overlap here. This class could include small friagates, Corvettes, and some of the larger sloops of war. 20 to 28 guns, 1 Gun deck, 140 to 200 Crew, 450 to 550 tons.
Presumably all playable factions.
Interceptors/Ship of the line support
Most of these ships would ne classed as fifth or sixth raters. I'm still gonig to give them there own seperate sections though.
U.S.S Constitution
Stronger than average for the same reasons as Victory.
Razee
A razee is a robust frigate, created by cutting the top deck off a larger ship of the line.
Frigates are a vital part of any balanced sea-going fleet. They are cruisers that can operate independently and are swift enough to hunt down enemy merchantmen. the chance for prize money makes them popular postings among officers and men alike!
One way of creating a large, powerful frigate is to take a two-deck ship of the line and, in effect, saw off the top deck creating a single-deck frigate. The first result is that a 64-gun ship can now only carry 44 guns, but the ones that remain are the heavier than those normally found on a frigate, typically 32- or 24-pounders rather than the expected 18s! The second result is that the razee retains the strong timbers of the original 64, making it a robust ship in combat. Thirdly, having lost its upper works, the new ship generally handles rather well under sail. All this work takes time and valuable dock space, of course.
Historically, one of the most successful razees was HMS Indefatigable, commanded by Edward Pellew. In the company of another frigate, Pellew took on - and defeated - the Droits de l'Homme, a French 74, in 1797. During the next year or so, Pellew and the Indefatigable went on to take a further nine vessels. (Credit to CA)
All playable factions.
Frigate
Fast, versatile ship designed to intercept and outfight anything but a lineship.
Frigates are single-deck warships, used for a variety of tasks thanks to a combination of good handling, firepower and endurance at sea.
“Fifth rate” is a Royal Navy term for the largest of the single-deck frigates, square-rigged ships that carry some 44 guns, usually no heavier than 12-pounders. Originally a French design – but quickly adopted by the other European powers – the frigate is used for pursuit, convoy protection, commerce raiding and reconnaissance work. The design’s excellent sailing characteristics and good handling, especially in inshore waters, make it a useful addition to any blockading fleet. The frigate’s ability to operate far away from a home port also makes them it a useful cruiser, carrying the fight to the enemy in unexpected waters.
Frigates can have the advantage over larger, two-deck ships in rough waters. A frigate captain rarely has to worry about his gun deck taking on water, and can therefore fight in conditions that leave bigger ships at a disadvantage. However, fifth rates are not powerful enough to face battleships. They have the speed and handling to stay out of trouble; they do not have the strength of construction to survive a pounding! Against sloops, brigs and merchantmen, however, they are deadly. This makes them excellent postings for officers hungry for prize money and glory.
Frigates captains made splendid role models for fictional heroes: Thomas, Lord Cochrane earned a fortune in prize money, gained the nickname “le loup des mers” (sea-wolf) and was the inspiration for fictional heroes Horatio Hornblower and Jack Aubrey. (Credit to CA)
All factions.
Corvette/Corvair
(An interesting little ship. This class started out as s small boat withno more than ten guns but ended up developing into something only slightly smaller than a Frigate, carrying upto 24 guns. All factions. (Credit to Asmodius)
Warships not commonly used in a line of battle
Galleon
Old, outdated ship, definitely Spain and Portugal, possibly all European powers.
Caravel
Old, outdated exploration vessel, Spain, Portugal.
Oarships
Galley
Lateen rigged Mediterranean ship which can be rowed.
probably Ottoman Empire, Sweden,
Russia, Denmark and Norway, Poland-Lithuania, Venice, other Baltic and Med factions.
Xebec
Lateen rigged Mediterranean ship designed for large crews and high speed.
Ottoman Empire.
Galleass
They were larger and had more sail than true galleys..as well as much more firepower. They were more sailing centered than rowing ....which had its disadvantages as well. This was one of the precusors to what became the square rigged man-of-war.
Basically this ship is a heavy galley. It will probably be seen around the Med area for a few factions. (Credit to Asmodius)
Ottaman Empire.
Exotic/Uncommon
Rocket ship
Long range artillery designed to set ships on fire.
Definitely U.S.A, almost certainly
Britain, probably other European powers.
Fire ship or bomb ship
Sacrificial ship designed to sail to the enemy and destroy itself.
All playable factions
Steamship
Lategame ship powered by both sails and steam powered paddles. Can sail against the wind with reasonable speed. Will likely come in a variety of shapes and sizes.
All playable factions.
Trading Vessels, Transport Ships
East Indiamen
Were large sailing vessel of the type built from the 16th to the 19th century for the trade between Europe and southern Asia. The first were Portuguese and Dutch; English Indiamen appeared late in the 16th century and eventually came to dominate the trade. The ships varied in size from about 400 to 1,500 tons and more; often they were larger than contemporary men-of-war. They were three-masted and invariably well armed for protection against piracy.
East Indiamen were designed to carry both passengers and goods and to defend themselves against piracy, and so constituted a special class of ship. In the period of the Napoleonic Wars they were often painted to resemble warships, an attacker could not be sure if gunports were real or merely paint, and some carried sizeable armaments. A number of these ships were in fact acquired by the Royal Navy, and in some cases they successfully fought off attacks by the French. One of the most celebrated of these incidents occurred in 1804, when a fleet of East Indiamen and other merchant vessels successfully fought off a marauding squadron commanded by Admiral Linois in the Indian Ocean. The event is dramatised in Patrick O'Brian's novel HMS Surprise.
East Indiamen were the largest merchant ships regularly built during the late 18th and early 19th centuries, generally measuring between 1100 and 1400 registered tons. Two of the largest were the Earl of Mansfield and Lascelles being built at Deptford in 1795. Both were purchased by the Royal Navy, completed as 56-gun Fourth Rate Ships of the Line, and renamed Weymouth and Madras respectively. They measured 1426 tons on dimensions of approximately 175 feet overall length of hull, 144 feet keel, 43 feet beam, 17 feet draft. (Credit to Fisherking)
England, United Provinces, Portugal.
Transport Ships
Merchantmen pressed into service as troop transports. Lightly armed or unarmed trading vessels.
All playable factions. (Credit to Fisherking)
Escort Ships/Messengers/Small support craft
Sloop-of-war
In the 18th and the earlier part of the 19th centuries, a sloop-of-war was a small sailing warship (also known as one of the escort types) with a single gun deck that carried anything up to eighteen cannon. As the rating system covered all vessels with 20 guns and above, this meant that the term sloop-of-war actually encompassed all the unrated combat vessels including the very small gun-brigs and cutters. In technical terms, even the more specialised bomb vessels and fireships were classed as sloops-of-war, and in practice these were actually employed in the sloop role when not carrying out their specialized functions. (Credit to Fisherking)
A sloop of war is usually ketch-rigged with two masts. These small vessels handle well in restricted waters.
The ability to navigate in exceptionally shallow or dangerous waters makes sloops very useful in such seas as the reef-strewn waters of the Caribbean. They can also operate without the need for extensive onshore naval facilities nearby. They are also extremely useful as fleet auxiliaries, carrying out communications tasks and vital inshore scouting work, and can hunt down smaller prey such as privateers and small enemy cargo vessels. A sloop-of-war (sometimes a corvette in French service) is a different vessel from a civilian, merchant sloop, having a flush deck, two square-rigged masts, guns, and a larger crew.
Historically, a post captain would rarely command a ship this small. The commanding officer was the “master and commander” (this is the origin of the modern naval rank of commander), and held the formal rank of lieutenant. Captain Cook RN commanded HMS Resolution, a sloop converted from a collier (coal ship), on his epic Pacific voyages and was highly satisfied with its performance. Sloop captains could be aggressive: before his promotion to post captain, Thomas Cochrane commanded the 14-gun HMS Speedy and managed to capture “El Gamo”, a Spanish xebec of 32 guns with a crew six times larger than his own! (Credit to CA)
All playable factions.
Gunboat
A gunboat was usually a small undecked vessel carrying a single smoothbore cannon in the bow, or just two or three such cannons. A gunboat could carry one or two masts or be oar-powered only, but the single-masted version of about 50 ft length was most typical. Some types of gunboats carried two cannons, or else mounted a number of swivel guns on the railings.
The advantages of this type of gunboat were that since it only carried a single cannon, that cannon could be quite heavy -- for instance a 32-pounder -- and that the boat could be maneuvered in shallow or restricted waters, where sailing was difficult for larger ships. A single hit from a frigate would demolish a gunboat, but a frigate facing a half-dozen gunboats in an estuary would likely be seriously damaged before it could manage to sink all of them. Gunboats were also easy and quick to build; the combatants in the 1776 Battle of Valcour Island on New York's Lake Champlain were mostly gunboats built on the spot.(Credit to Fisherking)
Dinghy
There has always been a need for small tender boats for transporting goods and personnel to and from anchored sailing ships.
(Hope we see them for the lakes and rivers as military transport…at least in North America) (Credit to Fisherking)
Canoe
Probably a long shot, unless we see combat on rivers and lakes.
Canoes are shallow-draft boats with a fine, delicate shape. Their perfect hydrodynamic form has a lot in common with the Viking ship. One advantage over a rowboat is that the paddler faces the direction he's going. Most Indian canoes were small, light, and fast. They'd carry a few people rapidly up and down rivers and lakes. The Iroquois built big, 30-foot-long freight-carrying canoes that could haul 18 passengers or a ton of merchandise. But even they could be portaged (carried over land) by just three people. (Credit to Fisherking)
As you can see the list is limited at the moment. I’m afraid my knowledge relating to the Eastern factions is a little poor, especially India. Any help fleshing out this list is appreciated.
If you want to propose a ship try nad add a little info to your post to explain why you think it will be included. I’ll update the OP as and when new info becomes available or people think of some good ideas. I myself willl be doing a little research to try and improve the list.
As we go on I will try and write a little bit of info for each ship to describe it’s appearance, power, and role in naval warfare.
If this list is good enough then players unfamiliar with the exciting world of fighting sail can use it as a beginners guide to ship classes and roles. :2thumbsup:
Get cracking! :beam::whip: