Pedophile's Joy and cheap oil too

[rasoforos]

47 year old pedo accepts an 8 year old bride in exchange for her father's debt. The judge says 'no problem' just wait until she is 12 or so before you rape her'

The Prophet did the same with Aisha anyway...

And of course these guys are our respectful allies and there is nothing wrong with that, its not a gross violation of human rights or anything is it? (Before you answer think of the hundreds of billions worth of weapons these guys buy from Europe and the US)

I personally have had enough with Saudi. There is no other country in the world that demands international administration more than them, and since we ve already pissed every muslim in the planet off already (for the wrong reasons) I dont see why we shouldnt intervene with that heaven of religious pedophilia.


http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/24/saudi.arabia.child.bride/index.html


(CNN) -- A group fighting for women's rights in Saudi Arabia condemned a judge Wednesday for refusing to annul the marriage of an 8-year-old girl to a 47-year-old man.

The group's co-founder, Wajeha al-Huwaider, told CNN that achieving human rights in the kingdom means standing against those who want to "keep us backward and in the dark ages."

The Society of Defending Women's Rights in Saudi Arabia, in a statement published on its Web site, called on the "minister of justice and human rights groups to interfere now in this case" by divorcing the girl from the man. "They must end this marriage deal which was made by the father of the girl and the husband."

On Saturday, the judge, Sheikh Habib Abdallah al-Habib, dismissed a petition brought by the girl's mother. Video Watch CNN's Mohammed Jamjoom report on the case »

The mother's lawyer, Abdullah al-Jutaili, said the judge found that the mother -- who is separated from the girl's father -- is not the legal guardian, and therefore cannot represent her daughter.

The judge requested, and received, a pledge from the husband, who was in court, not to allow the marriage to be consummated until the girl reaches puberty, al-Jutaili said. When she reaches puberty, the judge ruled, the girl will have the right to request a divorce by filing a petition with the court, the lawyer said.

Al-Jutaili said the girl's father arranged the marriage in order to settle his debts with the man, "a close friend" of his.

In its statement Wednesday, the Society of Defending Women's Rights in Saudi Arabia said the judge's decision goes against children's "basic rights." Marrying children makes them "lose their sense of security and safety. Also, it destroys their feeling of being loved and nurtured. It causes them a lifetime of psychological problems and severe depression.

"Moreover, children marriage creates unhealthy families because they were built on bad relationships."

The judge's decision also contradicts the king's consultative council, called the Majlis al-Shura, which found that anyone under the age of 18 "is a child and should be treated likewise," the women's rights group said.
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* Saudi judge refuses to annul marriage of girl, 8

In an interview with CNN, al-Huwaider said the Saudi government has signed international agreements involving children's and human rights, "and they know that this is very harmful to the kingdom's image. There is a strong wave to teach and spread human rights here in Saudi Arabia, but we all know that there are two players behind the scenes: a movement that wants reform and change to better the kingdom and another movement that wants to keep us backward and in the dark ages."

The Saudi Justice Ministry has not commented.

The Saudi Information Ministry forwarded CNN to the government-run Human Rights Commission.

Zuhair al-Harithi, a spokesman for the commission, said his organization is fighting against child marriages. "Child marriages violate international agreements that have been signed by Saudi Arabia and should not be allowed," he said.

Al-Harithi added that he did not have specific details about this case, but his organization has been able to stop at least one other child marriage.

Christoph Wilcke, a Saudi Arabia researcher for Human Rights Watch, said, "We've been hearing about these types of cases once every four or five months because the Saudi public is now able to express this kind of anger, especially so when girls are traded off to older men."

In an interview Wednesday with CNN, Wilcke said that while Saudi ministries may make decisions designed to protect children, "It is still the religious establishment that holds sway in the courts, and in many realms beyond the court."
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He added that, "unfortunately, the religious establishment holds to conservative views which many scholars believe sometimes violate sharia [Islamic law]."

Wilcke said he hopes the appeals process will overturn the judge's decision.
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CNN's Mohammed Jamjoom and Saad Abedine contributed to this report.

All About Saudi Arabia • Human Rights Watch

[Cronos Impera]

A man's life expectancy is 72 years.
So if she's lucky enough she'll poke at his savings when she's 32. So it's not a bad business at all.

[Husar]

I feel like putting on my shining armour and riding on my white horse to save that poor girl from her oppressors.

I don't think being well off financially at 32 is worth enduring what she may have to endure.

[Fragony]

Is culture, in Saudi Arabia, they have it.

[insert apoligists name] wusntanydifferunthereinyurophisshisshuwcouldyouYOUSUCK

[Tribesman]

The judge says 'no problem' just wait until she is 12 or so before you rape her'

Wow , where did the judge say that ?

[Fragony]

Wow , where did the judge say that ?

That confused me as well, everybody knows the prophet was with Aischa when she was 8.

[Tribesman]

That confused me as well, everybody knows the prophet was with Aischa when she was 8.

Really , since such information must be recorded in the accounts of his life and marriage can you show the verses where "everybody knows" that from ?
oh dear Frag you really walked into that one didn't you
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
What a surprise :no:

[Fragony]

Really , since such information must be recorded in the accounts of his life and marriage can you show the verses where "everybody knows" that from ?


Sure it's in the Oh-Maj-Got-Soh-Tyht, check it out

[InsaneApache]

I wish the Chuckle Brothers would give it a rest, it's getting tiresome. 'To me, to you'.

A question.

Is this covered under the UDHR? If not it should be. Some things are just wrong and this is one of them.

[Cronos Impera]

Come on guys, sex is as real in Islam as wine is in Klu Klux Klan. In a circumcised society can you really count on sex?
And besides this is a pre-Islamic Gipsy tradition to be found in any country with a strong Gypsy community (that includes Saudi Arabia as well).
Gypsies in Romania for instance marry their daughters from early ages for their economic protection.
Because:
- the girl is less dependent on her parents for money
- the girl gets protection from her older housband so she's les likely to be raped by other men in her community
- the girl is first to poke at her spouse's belongings in an inheritance claim so she can achieve financial independence in her early adult life
- the girl gets a tired old phallus so the chance of sexual intercourse during marriage decreases

[Kralizec]

Come on guys, sex is as real in Islam as wine is in Klu Klux Klan. In a circumcised society can you really count on sex?
And besides this is a pre-Islamic Gipsy tradition to be found in any country with a strong Gypsy community (that includes Saudi Arabia as well).
Gypsies in Romania for instance marry their daughters from early ages for their economic protection.
Because:
- the girl is less dependent on her parents for money
- the girl gets protection from her older housband so she's les likely to be raped by other men in her community
- the girl is first to poke at her spouse's belongings in an inheritance claim so she can achieve financial independence in her early adult life
- the girl gets a tired old phallus so the chance of sexual intercourse during marriage decreases

If your point is that there are other morally depraved cultures besides the one that's mainstream in Saudi Arabian society, I agree. But I gather that you think she should feel lucky. How happy would you be if you were sold off by your parents to live out your life as a pleasure boy for some sweaty old guy?

[Cronos Impera]

That is the cost of poverty. Poverty is the source of all evil and wrong.
If you ware her father, what choices would you make?
Grow your daughter without money and ruin her future doing such or marry her to a powerfull and wealthy man and she may get a chance to reach her twentys.That doesn't mean you sell her. As her father you can always protect her and intervine in her marriage to make sure she's ok. Isn't this what a good father always does for his children?
If your son-in-law beats your child, wouldn't you smash his head against a hard place?
When a girl gets married she becomes a woman in law. That means she can get a job or sign contracts earlier in life. And that means more independence.She can vote, join a party or do whatever she pleases.
Peverty stinks.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

That is the cost of poverty. Poverty is the source of all evil and wrong.

I was under the impression that this also happened in wealthy families.


And that means more independence.

Under Islamic law in Saudi Arabia? What is your definition of independence? :inquisitive:


She can vote, join a party or do whatever she pleases.

Saudi Arabia...

[Tribesman]

Is this covered under the UDHR? If not it should be. Some things are just wrong and this is one of them.

How many people in that article or the many others say child marriage is wrong ?
Are any of them Saudi government bodies ?
Are many media outlets in Saudi(which are government run and censored) running the story and editorials and publishing letters saying it is wrong ?
All this ruling is Apache is a judge making a decision based on a legal technicality , the technicality being that the case as presented to the court was not valid as the person who brought the case despite having custody of the child has not been made the legal guardian of the child .


I wish the Chuckle Brothers would give it a rest, it's getting tiresome.
Hey it was a simple question , if someone makes a claim about "everyone knowing" something then it should be really easy to provide the source of the "knowledge"......unless of course that "knowledge" is bollox .

[Strike For The South]

What they do with there laws and there people are no buisness of mine. Life is to short to try and tell others to live by your rules.

[Rhyfelwyr]

What they do with there laws and there people are no buisness of mine. Life is to short to try and tell others to live by your rules.

And yet this girl isn't being given much choice in the matter. We've basically got to decide whether or not we approach these issues at a personal or cultural level. At a cultural level, we have no right to interefere, however at the personal level the treatment the girl is receiving is totally unacceptable.

[Strike For The South]

And yet this girl isn't being given much choice in the matter. We've basically got to decide whether or not we approach these issues at a personal or cultural level. At a cultural level, we have no right to interefere, however at the personal level the treatment the girl is receiving is totally unacceptable.


Says you

[Rhyfelwyr]

Says you

Yes says me :dizzy2:

[Strike For The South]

Yes says me :dizzy2:

So your perspective is the correct one?

[Rhyfelwyr]

So your perspective is the correct one?

I don't know I just gave my opinion isn't that what we're supposed to do here? Just because I say it doesn't mean I think it's a fact.

EDIT: Wait, you probably mean my cultural perspective. Man I'm getting paranoid. Anyway, I suppose if there are things which one culture deems unacceptable, they may/may not be right in using their power to protect an individual from certain elements of another culture. When it comes to human rights, should they not come as a top priority?

[Strike For The South]

I don't know I just gave my opinion isn't that what we're supposed to do here? Just because I say it doesn't mean I think it's a fact.

Why is this news then? A judge made a ruling within the confines of his laws. This happens all the time.

[Samurai Waki]

I'm going to take the Laissez-faire approach to this one, while yes... the idea to me is truly abhorrent, I don't live in Saudi Arabia, so the best I can do is shout "Hey, thats Pedophilia, and Pedophiles deserve to be strung and quartered!" but the likely hood that they're going to listen to some western infidel with slightly Christian views on any matter is about as likely as the Grand Ayatollah wanting me to sit down with him and read to him about the life of Jesus Christ. (Not to mention Christians don't exactly have the best track record when it comes to sexing up pre-pubescent children...)

So I have to shrug, say "thank god that isn't my child" and be on my way... its weird to me, but oh well, I'm not an Arab.

[KarlXII]

The Prophet did the same with Aisha anyway...


1/10 trolling.

"The judge requested, and received, a pledge from the husband, who was in court, not to allow the marriage to be consummated until the girl reaches puberty, al-Jutaili said. When she reaches puberty, the judge ruled, the girl will have the right to request a divorce by filing a petition with the court, the lawyer said."

I mean, hell, I don't agree with it, I don't like it, but she is given this opportunity here.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

1/10 trolling.

"The judge requested, and received, a pledge from the husband, who was in court, not to allow the marriage to be consummated until the girl reaches puberty, al-Jutaili said. When she reaches puberty, the judge ruled, the girl will have the right to request a divorce by filing a petition with the court, the lawyer said."

I mean, hell, I don't agree with it, I don't like it, but she is given this opportunity here.

Mmhmm. :dizzy2:

I guess, like SFTS says. It's a real shame, but that's according to my moral code. If it was presented to me in real life, I would do something about it maybe. But as it stands, if you have strong enough feelings from your computer screen, I will praise an effort to stop this by anyone on these boards. :2thumbsup:

[Kralizec]

So your perspective is the correct one?

Yes.

Screw moral relativism. Western culture as it is now, even with all its flaws, is superior to societies like Saudi Arabia. And when I say western culture I don't mean Dutch windmills or France's 1.000.000 different types of cheeses versus shoarma or wearing checkered scarfs- but democracy and human rights.

Bring on Godwin, I dare you.

[Fragony]

Damn straight. If all cultures are equal then cannibalism is just a matter of taste.

[Tribesman]

I mean, hell, I don't agree with it, I don't like it, but she is given this opportunity here.
Its even easier than that , leave of appeal has been granted .
Since the ruling hinged on the technicality that the person who has legal custody is not the person who has legal guardianship then the mother can apply for guardianship , but as this is saudi that will be a long and prossibly unwinnable case so the better move and simpler one would be an application to make the child a ward of court .
Given that the saudi government says it is against this sort of thing happening and has signed teaties and set up bodies against this sort ofthing then becoming the legal guardian of the child makes their case very very easy to bring .
Then again if the government does that then I fully expect those posters who moaned when the US government took into care those FLDS children to moan again just as loudly about government interference with arranged marriage and underage sex .

[rasoforos]

1/10 trolling.

I mean, hell, I don't agree with it, I don't like it, but she is given this opportunity here.



An opportunity?

Do you think that a person who 'buys' an 8 year old in exchange of debt will stay true to his 'pledge'?

Even if he does do you think that when she reaches puberty he ll say 'All right go appeal, i wont touch you?'

Or you think that after 4 years of threats and intimidation she will really launch an appeal?






Now to the general topic...

Forget relativistic morality. Forget western values...this is not a western only forum. There are people from everywhere. Just use common sense...

...to say 'who are we to judge different cultures' is like saying 'why should the Nazis not kill the Jews if that is what they believe is right'...


...deep down, below our 'cultural morality' there is a level of instinctive morality that (i hope) dictates that no matter the underlying sociocultural structure of each of us, we all find what happened wrong.

So if I may say so, lets cut the *beep* about how unfair my topic is to this poor Arab pedophile and discuss what can be done or there is not much point in this topic apart from people to have a troll war.

[KukriKhan]

...deep down, below our 'cultural morality' there is a level of instinctive morality that (i hope) dictates that no matter the underlying sociocultural structure of each of us, we all find what happened wrong.

So if I may say so, lets cut the *beep* about how unfair my topic is to this poor Arab pedophile and discuss what can be done or there is not much point in this topic apart from people to have a troll war.

In fairness to the other contributors to this thread, the intent of the OP was unclear, until 2 days and 27 posts later (as quoted above). Therefore, each poster took a fair shot at establishing a discussion topic.

Henceforth, now armed with the OP's clarification, the topic is moral relativism vs moral absolutism. Deviations from the topic will be reviewed and possibly deleted.

Please: carry on. :bow:

[naut]

Only got a Godwin on post 28. I'm disappointed, I expected better. [/Tongue firmly in cheek]

[Tribesman]

Do you think that a person who 'buys' an 8 year old in exchange of debt will stay true to his 'pledge'?
Does that mean that his other pledge as part of the initial contract with the father that he will not consumate the marriage till the child reaches 18 will be broken too ?
If so doesn't that make the marriage contract invalid ?


Even if he does do you think that when she reaches puberty he ll say 'All right go appeal, i wont touch you?'

Errrrr...the right to appeal has been granted , you are on a different topic entirely in regards the girl being able to launch an appeal in her own right as an "adult" .


Or you think that after 4 years of threats and intimidation she will really launch an appeal?


Do you know that according to her mothers lawyer the girl is still unaware of the contract and court case ?

Really Rasphoros if you want to make a righteously indignant topic about a case it might be a good idea to find out a bit about the case before you go off on one ?
Or would that be too much of a "Just use common sense..." thing ?

But I must say my one big surprise with this topic is that it wasn't posted here in one form or another a hell of a lot earlier .

[rasoforos]

In fairness to the other contributors to this thread, the intent of the OP was unclear, until 2 days and 27 posts later (as quoted above). Therefore, each poster took a fair shot at establishing a discussion topic.

Henceforth, now armed with the OP's clarification, the topic is moral relativism vs moral absolutism. Deviations from the topic will be reviewed and possibly deleted.

Please: carry on. :bow:

Errr....

...it seemed quite straightforward at that point (of me starting it) that it wouldnt devolve into a case for contract lawyers...

...I was sadly mistaken :wall: :bow:

...I didnt try to direct the discussion by posing a moral dilema...I usually try to avoid posting in my topics too much so as not to influence the discussion since I am not exactly the most patient of conversationalists. What I wouldnt like it to be is a praise of social indeferrence in the name of cultural differences.


To Tribesman:

I dont subscribe to being the most knowledgeable person for this case. I posted an article and not a postgraduate thesis on it. Its not my goal to teach people, just to see people's ideas and learn. And yes, using common sense is a good idea in general. :2thumbsup:

[Tribesman]

I posted an article and not a postgraduate thesis on it.
Errrr...
You posted.....

47 year old pedo accepts an 8 year old bride in exchange for her father's debt. The judge says 'no problem' just wait until she is 12 or so before you rape her'

which isn't true , and then....

The Prophet did the same with Aisha anyway...

which also isn't true .
Then you followed with.....

And of course these guys are our respectful allies and there is nothing wrong with that, its not a gross violation of human rights or anything is it?
which is a bit silly considering the reaction to this judges opinion in Saudi itself .

So yes you posted an article , yes you didn't post a postgraduate thesis , but what you did post yourself seems largely missing that common sense thing you mention .

[Strike For The South]

Yes.

Screw moral relativism. Western culture as it is now, even with all its flaws, is superior to societies like Saudi Arabia. And when I say western culture I don't mean Dutch windmills or France's 1.000.000 different types of cheeses versus shoarma or wearing checkered scarfs- but democracy and human rights.

Bring on Godwin, I dare you.

I agree our culture is better and this is horrible. I just dont think we should do anything to stop it.

[Husar]

Only got a Godwin on post 28. I'm disappointed, I expected better. [/Tongue firmly in cheek]

Does that mean I'm fine when I compare Tribesman with Hitler now? :mellow:

On topic, I think what you need is a healthy mix of moral relativism and moral absolutism, the problem is that everybody thinks a different mix is the healthiest one and then they start crushing eachother's skulls over which mix is the healthiest one. :shrug:

[Kralizec]

Does that mean that his other pledge as part of the initial contract with the father that he will not consumate the marriage till the child reaches 18 will be broken too ?
If so doesn't that make the marriage contract invalid ?

Ahem:
"The judge requested, and received, a pledge from the husband, who was in court, not to allow the marriage to be consummated until the girl reaches puberty"

I don't know about Irish children, but most of us reach puberty when they're 11 or 12.


As for Aisha's age, many people "know" that her marriage was consumated at the age of 9. According to wikipedia:

Generally, it is accepted that Aisha was between eighteen to twenty years old at the time of her marriage to Muhammad. However, the topic is controversial due to a narrative existing in the Hadith literature that claims Aisha was six years old. While proven incorrect due to historical conflict in chronology, the claim is often promoted in Orientalist literature.

Whatever really happened doesn't seem particulary relevant to me- if most muslims believe that she had reached maturity and have no reservations in condemning pedophilia, fine.


I agree our culture is better and this is horrible. I just dont think we should do anything to stop it.

I don't think that we should invade countries to forcibly "civilize" them, but there are also diplomatic efforts and human rights organisations, wich I approve of.

[Tribesman]

Ahem:
"The judge requested, and received, a pledge from the husband, who was in court, not to allow the marriage to be consummated until the girl reaches puberty"

Isn't it funny that of all the news articles on this story I have read with the many quotes from the hearings and statements by the lawyers and family , be they media from asia africa europe or america , the middle east or the far east its only CNN and reruns of the CNN piece that have that line ?
But anyway isn't it nice that a new hearing with a different judge in a different court has been set for February .

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Saudi Arabia is a shining example of why energy independence (or at least getting closer to that goal) is worthwhile.

The have a perfect right to live their lives, organize their culture, and administer justice in that fashion which seems most fit to them -- however loathsome I may find it to be.

[rasoforos]

Errrr...


which isn't true , and then....

which also isn't true .




Sorry I cant fight such arguments. 'Which isnt true' is always the Achiles heel of my arguments. I have no counter to that.

Lets not take this further. Forget my arguments. I see your point, I disagree with you. Now lets let the rest of the people speak their mind. Have a pint on me :medievalcheers:

[seireikhaan]

Saudi Arabia is a shining example of why energy independence (or at least getting closer to that goal) is worthwhile.

The have a perfect right to live their lives, organize their culture, and administer justice in that fashion which seems most fit to them -- however loathsome I may find it to be.
Hear hear. Quite accurate on basically every point. We can't make them do what we want, but that doesn't mean we can't oppose it. Get that solar power/hybrids/natural gas powered vehicles going asap.(crimeny, that post took me like 20 minutes to get that post comprehensible)

[Tribesman]

Lets not take this further. Forget my arguments.
Take it further , it's a good topic .
The problem was that you started mainly in the wrong direction .

[Thermal]

In a circumcised society can you really count on sex?




:laugh4: are you kidding? i was un aware circumcision lead to wane in sexual intercourse :juggle2: