Some joyous tidings from Israel [Archive] - Page 3

LittleGrizzly

01-06-2009, 13:15

Why do people always get so upset by this subject? And why do people feel like they have to pick sides in this conflict?

I started out on this topic trying my hardest to criticise both equally, the fact that israel is the powerful oppressor whose citizens mainly live in nice conditions and the palestinians are the oppressed who live mainly in refugee camps and the like simply leaves me unable to defend israeli actions

Both parties have committed attrocities and in a way, you could say they act like children who refuse to grow up.

Why don't they create a (con)federal state, with protection of minority rights and a veto for each group on important issues?

Yes, there will be alot of bickering in parliament, yes there will be alot of absurdity, but that only leads to citizens who are disgusted by politicians (people will always dislike politicans, just like they dislike crooked salesmen, lawyers, etc. :shrug:) and high taxes; nobody dies of it.

Sounds like a great idea!

I think you would find more opposition form israelis than palestinians on your resolution, basically any decent resolution involves israel giving something and the palestinians getting something, it seems unfair but the palestinians simply have nothing to give, it is israel that has most to gain from the status qou over some peaceful resolution (one reason why i think they encourage this perpetual state of war)

really, really don't understand why this dispute hasn't been resolved yet.

For reasons beyond my comprehension, it seems to me both parties prefer this perpetual state of war (and the misery and tragedy inherent on it) over a peaceful society (with the occasional tensions, but without spilling blood).

Basically the state of israel would have to give stuff away or at least share
Leaders of fringe loonies would lose votes as you don't these loonies if theres no enemy to fight (goes for leadership of both peoples)
and basically most dictators in the mid east are happy to use the thing as a distraction from the lack rights and progress in thier own countrys

3. You mean he admitted that there must be a political end to a conflict like NI, no kidding. so what?

So maybe after years of israel trying to blow people up and shoot them, they need to stop and go for a political end, which there has to in a conflict like this involving terrorists, and im guessing you agree here...?

6. I would rather see an administration in gaza that is interested in peacefully co-existing with the sovereign nation state of israel.

Me too. But until israel modifys it tactics so that such an administration is possible it would be nice to see them get thier fingers burned... again...

rory_20_uk

01-06-2009, 13:17

I doubt Hamas has to buy the rockets.

And considering that Israel doesn't even let money into the area, the oppourtunities to buy anything else are limited. And it has to be very low tech. Anything that requires electricity is out, as Israel disrupts supply. Anything that requires spare parts is a no-no. Even food imports appear to not be allowed.

And what exactly is Hamas to purchase that Israel will not view as a legitimate target? Water treatment plants, fuel supplies etc are all fair game it seems.

If you give people hope they'll be far more concerned about living to tomorrow. Bombing in built up areas and then blaming the only people that appear to be helping them isn't going to win hearts and minds.

~:smoking:

tibilicus

01-06-2009, 13:18

1. I think you will find that the israeli military do not count it a victory and like any good learning army, of which there are very few, they will overcome the deficits revealed by lebanon.

2. Israel does not want Gaza, making it part of Israel would destroy the demographics of a jewish state.

3. You mean he admitted that there must be a political end to a conflict like NI, no kidding. so what?

4. The UN says that more than a quarter are civilians, not the majority. I quite liked Hooha's witty asides about militants 'expiring', does that make me a product of a hate-filled childhood too? :no:

5. I cried a little bit when i read about that child, there i feel better about myself because i am indeed superior to that nasty zionist oppressor Hoohaguy. :clown:

6. I would rather see an administration in gaza that is interested in peacefully co-existing with the sovereign nation state of israel.

7. We all make mistakes, I am confident the IDF will learn from them.

You don't get my point do you?

If you read the previous post I'm not excusing the atrocities of Hamas, what I'm trying to do though is show Hoohaguy why this conflict has been brought about. I'm trying to explain that this attack has been planned for months way before the rockets even started coming over the border.
I'm also trying to explain the dire humanitarian situation Gaza has been put through thanks to Israel and it's blockades. Israel in cases had been blocking aid from charity's going over? what give it the right to do that?

Oh and about the civilians read this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7812286.stm

Among all the hundreds we have seen so far, we have seen two fighters," he said, adding that women and children alone made up 25% of the death toll, and 45% of the wounded.

That's a quote from a foreign doctor working in Gaza. So if you say 25% are civilian but only 25% have been women and children and the men probably add up to another 25 % that means even still at least half of the people killed are non combatants.

By the way you should also know that excessive sarcasm is the lowest form of humour and wit. You should probably watch stand up a bit more, you could learn a lot from it.

:clown:

Tribesman

01-06-2009, 13:18

Israel hadn't even tried to get along with it's neighbours. The fact is that if the opportunity was given to Israel tomorow to take Gaza with no international repercussions they would take it with out a doubt. Fact.

That isn't true , Israel would only take Gaza if there were not those pesky locals living there .

Yom Kippur War of 73?

:oops: my mistake , it confusing with so many wars , of course Yom Kippur was '73 thats when some countries launched a surprise attack on Israel , the six day war was when Israel launched a surprise attack on some countries .
I suppose we should add the '56 war when Israel and its european allies started a war and the South Lebanon war where Israel and its terrorist friends had a little party that didn't turn out too well .

What Goods to Israel even produce?

I can honestly say I cant recall seeing anything with made in Israel on..
They export loads of things , but they have got in a bit of trouble lately for selling stuff as "Made in Israel" when it has been produced in the illegal setlements .

what I'm trying to do though is show Hoohaguy why this conflict has been brought about.
Have you perhaps considered talking to a brick wall ? It might get better results

tibilicus

01-06-2009, 13:24

LittleGrizzly

01-06-2009, 13:25

You may laugh but those israeli oranges i ate directly supported the war!

though tbh i can't think of much, i would hope that pressure would bring to bear in general so that big shops would stop stocking israeli goods wholesale, if enough people did it with just silly things like oranges it can make a difference

Intel has some fabs and design labs in israel, who invented the Banias chip which is the precursor to the successful "Core" family of processors which replaced the hopeless P4 line.

I would give those up, that'll stick it to'em!

Buy athlon in future, inform pentium of reasoning for decision, encourage anyone and everyone to do those 2 steps... Got it!

so far we have pentuims oranges and a whole bunch of weaponary....

Hamas don't care, all aid goes directly to Hamas, and what do they do? Yep buy rockets.

Actually sorry to correct you there, but Hamas provides basic social services to the palestinian people, infact given the wealth of their arab backers im sure they could quite easily cover thier weapons and other military bills by arab backers alone, meaning they actually spend the aid on aid!

Does hamas even get any aid ?

BTW you kind of missed the point of my post

Is the whole reason for palestinian terrorism to convert everyone to islam ?
or are there maybe other factors you perhaps overlooked.... like dirt poor poverty, killed children, lack of access to water supplies (what is it like 5-10% of the total water ?)

Fragony

01-06-2009, 13:33

Andres

01-06-2009, 13:33

I think you would find more opposition form israelis than palestinians on your resolution, basically any decent resolution involves israel giving something and the palestinians getting something, it seems unfair but the palestinians simply have nothing to give, it is israel that has most to gain from the status qou over some peaceful resolution (one reason why i think they encourage this perpetual state of war)

But the Palestinians do have something to offer: peace = no more waste of human (jewish and palestinian!) lives.

And, thinking long term here, once Palestinians get jobs and build up their part of the newly created country, they will add revenue to the newly created state (taxes).

Furunculus

01-06-2009, 13:35

You don't get my point do you?

Oh and about the civilians read this http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7812286.stm
That's a quote from a foreign doctor working in Gaza. So if you say 25% are civilian but only 25% have been women and children and the men probably add up to another 25 % that means even still at least half of the people killed are non combatants.

nope i really don't.

the beeb has a wonderful way of 'presenting' statistics i always find, but if you are in any doubt about the UNWRA stated numbers i recommend you Ctrl+F the word "quarter" in the following news links:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200915143237167997.html
http://www.thecornerreport.com/index.php?p=4088&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/248814,israeli-tanks-troops-battle-into-gaza-strip.html
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/6195845.html
I could give you more but it seems a bit redundant.

tibilicus

01-06-2009, 13:39

Furunculus

01-06-2009, 13:39

:oops: my mistake , it confusing with so many wars , of course Yom Kippur was '73 thats when some countries launched a surprise attack on Israel , the six day war was when Israel launched a surprise attack on some countries .
I suppose we should add the '56 war when Israel and its european allies started a war and the South Lebanon war where Israel and its terrorist friends had a little party that didn't turn out too well .

come on now, i was just being nice and informing you in a nice way of a teensy error you had made, a quick "thanks" would have more than sufficed.

tibilicus

01-06-2009, 13:41

nope i really don't.

the beeb has a wonderful way of 'presenting' statistics i always find, but if you are in any doubt about the UNWRA stated numbers i recommend you Ctrl+F the word "quarter" in the following news links:
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2009/01/200915143237167997.html
http://www.thecornerreport.com/index.php?p=4088&more=1&c=1&tb=1&pb=1
http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/248814,israeli-tanks-troops-battle-into-gaza-strip.html
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/world/6195845.html
I could give you more but it seems a bit redundant.
Did you read those articles yourself?

Just quickly skimming through with out reading thoroughly I can't find any statistics..

Furunculus

01-06-2009, 13:42

At the end of the day to all those who defend Israeli actions, why cant they just bomb the rocket launch positions instead of bombing the most densely populated piece of land on earth. You can see from the news that the militants are launching the rockets outside of the city areas and mainly on mud banks.

You haven't thought that maybe Israel are after something a bit more here than stopping the rocket attacks?

because those launch sites are not like US/Societ ICMB sites which is to say that they are not fixed concrete launch pads in the middle of 100,000 hectares of prarie-land. They are launched from anywhere and everywhere which frequently includes densely populated civilian areas precisely because they want the protection and the propoganda from israeli retaliation.

yes, they are attempting to break the back of the organised insurgency, how succesfully is the matter in dispute.

Furunculus

01-06-2009, 13:46

Did you read those articles yourself?

Just quickly skimming through with out reading thoroughly I can't find any statistics..

but they all quote the UNWRA as stating that more than a quarter of casualties have been civilian, and at no time is the word majority used in the same context.............................. do they not?

Ctrl+F is your friend.

LittleGrizzly

01-06-2009, 13:48

But the Palestinians do have something to offer: peace = no more waste of human (jewish and palestinian!) lives.

And, thinking long term here, once Palestinians get jobs and build up their part of the newly created country, they will add revenue to the newly created state (taxes).

They get that gain, but almost any nationalist would find it hard to lose or share power in this way, just as one example the water situation, i forget the exact figures but its something like 90-95% of water goes to israelis.

Putting aside what should be done, i can understand israelis (i disagree strongly but i can understand why like with terrorism i guess) not wanting to give up and share resources with what they regard as such a despicable enemy, and after thier fathers and forefather fought so hard to just give it up and allow the arabs a majority

Im trying to think in terms of the average israeli family here, sure they may very well lose a relative either in the military or from an attack, but they get the majority of the water, the majority of the land, and then to have to share all that would drastically cut them back...

And that is what i think is one of the major obstacles, for the majority of israelis peace would involve losing more than continued war will... or at least it must be true for a sizeable minority in the very least...

I think in the end a comfortable life and a majority jewish state are more important to many israelis than the lives peace could save, add in the fact that both leaderships gain power from the conflict and you have the recipe for many years of conflict ahead.... its staggering to think its gone on for so long but i cannot see an end to it anytime soon...

TBH i think the only way peace can ever be achieved is from huge international pressure, i just can't ever see them sorting it out themselves....

Andres

01-06-2009, 13:49

That's kind of hard though due to how densely populated it is. Even if there was peace most Palestinians would be unemployed and rebuilding that country would take go knows how long. To long I don't even want to think about it. The fact half of them are Arabs shoved into Gaza by Israel makes you think that maybe an agreement could be reached for example where by Israel would let some of the Palestinian citizens move into their country or at least provide jobs in their country for them.

That would never happen though.

Ah, but if you make it a (con)federal state then Israel becomes the country of the Palestinians and Palestina the country of the Israelians. Of course, Palestinians would be allowed to live in what is now Israel and vice versa.

Negativism and continuing this perpetual state of war will get us nowhere. Dreaming about peace is the first step, not the final one. First you dream, then you work out the dream. Don't let difficult problems stop the peace proces, try to find a solution instead.

I think your regular Ahmed/David Sixpack prefers peace over the current situation.

Put them in the same country, give them equal rights, ensure legal protection of minorities.

All the problems you name can be solved.

The only thing that is lacking at the moment is the will to do it by those in power.

Which is beyond my comprehension and makes me, like every armed conflict does, feel very disappointed in the human race.

tibilicus

01-06-2009, 13:49

but they all quote the UNWRA as stating that more than a quarter of casualties have been civilian, and at no time is the word majority used in the same context.............................. do they not?

I believe one also said that figures are very hard to obtain due to Israel refusing to let international journalists in. This is shown due to the fact news agency's like the BBC are reporting very different things from other news agency's.

Israeli reluctance to allow international journalists in also suggests they may be wanting to cover up some of the casualties with out going to conspiracy theorist on you.

The Independent actually has a reporter In Gaza city who reported yesterday a civilian death toll figure way above the 25% you are suggesting. To be honest we could have this argument all day and pull up sources from different web sites but is there really any point till Israel lets more journalists in?

CountArach

01-06-2009, 13:52

The socailist worker party (or something along those lines, i forget the name) has called for people to boycott israeli goods, im just wondering what the general views on a boycott are here in the forum ?

I am in full support!
Sounds good to me.:2thumbsup:

Andres

01-06-2009, 13:52

TBH i think the only way peace can ever be achieved is from huge international pressure, i just can't ever see them sorting it out themselves....

If a solution has to be obtained by international pressure, then the first thing every country should do, is stop picking sides in this conflict.

Furunculus

01-06-2009, 13:54

I think in the end a comfortable life and a majority jewish state are more important to many israelis than the lives peace could save, add in the fact that both leaderships gain power from the conflict and you have the recipe for many years of conflict ahead.... its staggering to think its gone on for so long but i cannot see an end to it anytime soon...

it is not true that israelies cannot live in a majority jewish state without the current status-quo, this is what the whole right to return issue is about. there can indeed be a palestinian state and a majority jewish israel.

and they do indeed desire a state of peace, because the conflict is already causing immigrants to return to their country of origin and most of the great jewish emigrations that bolstered jewish numbers in israel in previous decades have already happened, there aren't many more left who are willing to come.

Furunculus

01-06-2009, 13:58

I believe one also said that figures are very hard to obtain due to Israel refusing to let international journalists in. This is shown due to the fact news agency's like the BBC are reporting very different things from other news agency's.

Israeli reluctance to allow international journalists in also suggests they may be wanting to cover up some of the casualties with out going to conspiracy theorist on you.

To be honest we could have this argument all day and pull up sources from different web sites but is there really any point till Israel lets more journalists in?

your dodging the fact that you made a statement of majority and are now having to backtrack because the official word is more than a quarter.

S.O.P. all militaries try to manage information inside theatres of operation, this has already been said many times in this thread, stop playing deus-ex.

Or we could look to UNWRA................?

LittleGrizzly

01-06-2009, 14:07

If a solution has to be obtained by international pressure, then the first thing every country should do, is stop picking sides in this conflict.

If all countries agreed to not deal with either except to send basic aid (food, water and medicine) its probably the way i would go about it. It almost seems unfair but that would almost exclusively affect isrealis, i doubt most palestinians would notice the difference...

The main obstacles to this however is people with shared religions

American jews refuse to allow thier political leader to abandon thier brothers
Arabs either refuse to allow thier leaders to abandon thier brothers or might just realise they're living in a dictatorship when they stop thinking about israel

The main way i could see it working is an agreemnt between america and the rest of the arab world to stay out of it and not fund thier personal favourite, doesn't china buy military tech off israel ? i don't see them being too quick to put a stop to that...

The international pressure being brought to bear is also a tough one to achieve, easier probably than them sorting it out themselves...

The only way i see it happening is if arabs living in the US manage to become as powerful a lobby as the jewish one, or basically to the point of cancelling each other out, then the US with some arm twisitng could probably convince most people to go along with a world boycott...

TBH my glass is half empty here, even if the arab lobby does become as powerful as the jewish, i don't see the US changing tactics still, and there would just be absolutlely no political will to treat israel so badly (which is how im guessing such actions would play out in us domestic media)

Just a note i pretty much agree with everything you say... think im just too much of a pessimist to believe any of it is possible within the next 10-20 years... maybe even 30 or 40

LittleGrizzly

01-06-2009, 14:15

it is not true that israelies cannot live in a majority jewish state without the current status-quo, this is what the whole right to return issue is about. there can indeed be a palestinian state and a majority jewish israel.

Well i was referring to Andres one country idea, which afaik would leave jews a minority....

and they do indeed desire a state of peace, because the conflict is already causing immigrants to return to their country of origin and most of the great jewish emigrations that bolstered jewish numbers in israel in previous decades have already happened, there aren't many more left who are willing to come.

Well its the ones who can stand war the least that will leave, those who desire it the most will stay on and as a result won't israel become less and less a state looking for peace... more and more a state in the hands of the fringe element who for whatever reason (religion, revenge or any racial superority they may believe in)

TBH this just depresses me further as the conflict seems even less solveable!!

Not that i was doubting your fact but do you have any links that confirm this...

S.O.P. all militaries try to manage information inside theatres of operation, this has already been said many times in this thread, stop playing deus-ex.

Don't they all try and downplay the numbers of deaths and numbers of innocents usually as well...

Sounds good to me.

Remember CA, pentiums and oranges ;)

tibilicus

01-06-2009, 14:15

your dodging the fact that you made a statement of majority and are now having to backtrack because the official word is more than a quarter.

S.O.P. all militaries try to manage information inside theatres of operation, this has already been said many times in this thread, stop playing deus-ex.

Or we could look to UNWRA................?

I'm not back tracking I was estimating my figures at 50% + civilians from sources such as the bbc which I still believe I was simply stating no one can have hard facts till Israel lets more reporters in.

Quit being so hostile and defensive over everything anyway, it's only a forum debate.:yes:

Fragony

01-06-2009, 15:08

TBH this just depresses me further as the conflict seems even less solveable!!

If you want the conflict solved then remove the problem, with Hamas out of the way the much more moderate Fatah can take things over in Gaza. This conflict will never stop if you want to please everyone, and what's the problem Hamas broke the truce knowing fully well that everybody will blame Israel anyway because they are uninformed; had to explain to a friend of mine that this wasn't the response to a single mortar attack, he reads quality newspapers so he had no idea of the rockets. If jews control the media they sure do a poor job.

Andres

01-06-2009, 15:16

The main obstacles to this however is people with shared religions

Religion has nothing to do with it.

Oh yes, I can hear you all yelling at me : "but religion has everything to do with it!"

No, it hasn't.

Seperation between church and state. Not just on paper, as a way of organising a modern state, but also in the mind.

Seperate religion from it and look at it from a humanist perspective.

It's necessary if we want to get somewhere near something that resembles a solution.

American jews refuse to allow thier political leader to abandon thier brothers

They make the same mistake many make: they pick a side. If we want to help solve this conflict, then don't pick sides.

Arabs either refuse to allow thier leaders to abandon thier brothers or might just realise they're living in a dictatorship when they stop thinking about israel

They make the same mistake many make: they pick a side. If we want to help solve this conflict, then don't pick sides.

If the international community truly wants to seek a solution for this conflict, than not getting involved is not on option I'm afraid. It seems like both parties are too deep into their own mess to keep a clear head. They need help.

But if the international community manages to agree to no longer pick sides (which could well be more than half of the solution in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict... :shame:), then how should we interfere?

Sending a peace keeping force stationed between both parties in combination with a constant, never ending stream of negotiators which keep proposing several (complicated) stateforms (so that the Palestinian and Israelian leaders either come to an agreement or die out of boredom).

Both parties will never agree about who gets what territory, so make it one big country with equal rights, minory protection, veto rights for several groups on several issues.

TBH my glass is half empty here, even if the arab lobby does become as powerful as the jewish, i don't see the US changing tactics still, and there would just be absolutlely no political will to treat israel so badly (which is how im guessing such actions would play out in us domestic media)

Just a note i pretty much agree with everything you say... think im just too much of a pessimist to believe any of it is possible within the next 10-20 years... maybe even 30 or 40

Pessimism will get us nowhere :shrug:

I try to keep in mind that the regular Ahmed/David Sixpack does not want war. Nobody in their sane mind wants war. Only evil men and women abusing the minds of hopeless/naive/good people want war.

There is no such thing as a just cause for war. There simply isn't. War is the summum of absurdity, people don't want war.

I truly believe that the majority of the people living in Israel/Palestina don't want war, but desire peace and an end to their hopeless situation, but the thing is, they don't seem to manage to get those in power to listen to them.

Maybe they'll listen to the international community, which has to end its' own quarrels and petty power games first before starting to help to find a solution.

rory_20_uk

01-06-2009, 16:10

Has Israel asked the UN to police the border instead of it's own troops?

~:smoking:

Tribesman

01-06-2009, 16:28

because the conflict is already causing immigrants to return to their country of origin and most of the great jewish emigrations that bolstered jewish numbers in israel in previous decades have already happened, there aren't many more left who are willing to come.

Throughout the last century large numbers of immigrants left Palestine/Israel after arriving .
A while ago Adrian posted a piece about Iranian Jews leaving Israel because they were treated like :daisy: in Israel , add to that the problem with newer immigrants who are moving to Israel just to get an Israeli passport so it is easier for them to move on to another country .
I suppose one real irony is the Jewish section of Jerusalem where the long established community is being driven out by the fanatic immigrants from out Hooahs neck of the woods who consider themselves to be the only real Jews .
Crazy isn't it , a bunch of nuts from Brooklyn who don't actually recognise the State of Israel are persecuting the local Jews .
What a screwed up country .

Has Israel asked the UN to police the border instead of it's own troops?

Do the IDF need more target practice or something ?

tibilicus

01-06-2009, 16:33

So who wants to try and justify this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7814054.stm

rory_20_uk

01-06-2009, 16:41

Do the IDF need more target practice or something ?

Yes, they do seem to accidentally kill the odd member of the press next to a press van, destroy the occsional UN bunker, sink the odd ship in international waters... Laws don't apply to Israelis it seems.

School? School? Damn good strike on a weapons cache with trainees for suicide bombers in situ if you ask me. There are no innocents in the West Bank.

~:smoking:

Fragony

01-06-2009, 16:43

A while ago Adrian posted a piece about Iranian Jews leaving Israel because they were treated like :daisy: in Israel

And yet so many israeli-arabs decide to stay

tibilicus

01-06-2009, 19:10

Watching the news right now Israel justified its attacks on not one but two UN run schools in refugee camps because they claimed Hamas fighters were located there..

UN officials involved in the running of the school said no Hamas fighters were in the building at the time and so far at least 40 children have been confirmed as dead.

Also watching the Israeli defence minister on t.v never have I heard some one try to make such callous and coward like excuses for such actions. Right now I'm disgusted with Israel, they make me feel physically sick to my stomach. An operation to try and boost its pathetic self esteem. Israel at this moment is a cowards nation.

rasoforos

01-06-2009, 19:30

Hmm I just received an infraction for drawing paralels between Israel and a certain Nationalistic movement which became prominent in Central Europe during the 30's under the leadership of an Austrian dude. Its worth 1 point.

I 've now become a martyr for the cause. :elephant::whip:

I will post the part of my post I think Banquo is ok with

'You have got to kill them when they are small. Its very important because the might breed when they reach adulthood. Of course it is not terrorism because the people who did it are wearing military uniforms. Of course it doesnt matter that it was UN territory and full with refugees because the UN will say nothing and the State Department will come up with a good reason why it was a good idea.'

(If that's offensive too tell me and I will delete it and replace it with something about pretty flowers and fluffy bunnies)

tibilicus

01-06-2009, 19:45

'You have got to kill them when they are small. Its very important because the might breed when they reach adulthood. Of course it is not terrorism because the people who did it are wearing military uniforms. Of course it doesnt matter that it was UN territory and full with refugees because the UN will say nothing and the State Department will come up with a good reason why it was a good idea.'

(If that's offensive too tell me and I will delete it and replace it with something about pretty flowers and fluffy bunnies)

Actually the UN have openly spoken out about it tonight saying that the Israel are hitting the wrong targets and that so far their operation isn't working.

Hooahguy

01-06-2009, 20:05

So who wants to try and justify this?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7814054.stm
i will-

you know, this iswar. not a war game. accidents happen. it happens in all wars, and its very sad when this happens, but its part of war. sides try to avoid this kind of stuff, but sometimes it happens.

Hooahguy

01-06-2009, 20:06

Actually the UN have openly spoken out about it tonight saying that the Israel are hitting the wrong targets and that so far their operation isn't working.
....and yet the UN is silent when hamas rockets fall on israeli towns....

and who is the UN to say when an operation isnt working?

tibilicus

01-06-2009, 20:09

....and yet the UN is silent when hamas rockets fall on israeli towns....

You have to be kidding me right? So now your hinting towards that the UN might support terrorist organizations? Maybe they to are anti-semetic!

Damn the whole united nations and the whole world for that matter just hate Israel. God they're such victims, I turn on the t.v and just think damn, look at the suffering they're going through..

Hooahguy

01-06-2009, 20:19

Wow hooah actually wrote something right .
way to take things out of context!

You are fairly consistent yourself, Tribes.
yes... consistently wrong :clown:

Intresting question for those who support over the top retaliation....
interesting question for you which you and others who share the same ideas you do, which hasn't been answered yet: what do YOU think is an appropriate response by israel? doing nothing is out of the question, for its dumb to think that any nation would let a terrorist organization shoot rockets at them.

At the end of the day to all those who defend Israeli actions, why cant they just bomb the rocket launch positions instead of bombing the most densely populated piece of land on earth. You can see from the news that the militants are launching the rockets outside of the city areas and mainly on mud banks.
dont you know that hamas changes launching sites regularly, so actually hitting one is kinda hard? a

Hooahguy

01-06-2009, 20:23

You have to be kidding me right? So now your hinting towards that the UN might support terrorist organizations? Maybe they to are anti-semetic!

Damn the whole united nations and the whole world for that matter just hate Israel. God they're such victims, I turn on the t.v and just think damn, look at the suffering they're going through..

ever heard of Resolution 3379 (which was later repealed thanks to prevalent heads :sweatdrop:)
ever heard of the Durban Conference?

btw, sarcasm is in green....

Hooahguy

01-06-2009, 20:26

I 've now become a martyr for the cause. :elephant::whip:

no. only when you are banned you become a martyr.

Hax

01-06-2009, 20:29

Also, Israel bombed two UN schools.

What, are the Hamas militants hiding there?

tibilicus

01-06-2009, 20:36

ever heard of Resolution 3379 (which was later repealed thanks to prevalent heads :sweatdrop:)
ever heard of the Durban Conference?

btw, sarcasm is in green....

Well seeming non of your writing was in green im going to go ahead and presume what I originally though.

Also I find that resolution ridiculous, thank god it was repealed. How is Anti-Zionism racism? Isn't Zionism the idea of creating an Jewish state in Palestine? In what way would being against that be "racist"? It's like saying that I hate the idea of Japan being a country, that's not racist, saying I think white people are superior to Asian people, that would be racist.

How was that Resolution even considered? :help:

Saying the Jewish people are actually they're own race I find debatable in itself, I though being Jewish meant your part of a religion not a race.:inquisitive:

Hooahguy

01-06-2009, 20:55

Well seeming non of your writing was in green im going to go ahead and presume what I originally though.

Also I find that resolution ridiculous, thank god it was repealed. How is Anti-Zionism racism? Isn't Zionism the idea of creating an Jewish state in Palestine? In what way would being against that be "racist"? It's like saying that I hate the idea of Japan being a country, that's not racist, saying I think white people are superior to Asian people, that would be racist.

How was that Resolution even considered? :help:

Saying the Jewish people are actually they're own race I find debatable in itself, I though being Jewish meant your part of a religion not a race.:inquisitive:
when did i call the UN racist?

i think you meant "how is Zionism racism"

Hooahguy

01-06-2009, 20:56

Also, Israel bombed two UN schools.

What, are the Hamas militants hiding there?
as i said earlier, its war. mistakes happen. its not like, AFAIK, the schools had giant banners on all sides that read "UN"

tibilicus

01-06-2009, 21:05

when did i call the UN racist?

i think you meant "how is Zionism racism"

Sorry was referring to an earlier post in which you said
..and yet the UN is silent when hamas rockets fall on Israeli towns....

Suggesting you think that Israel is some how sided with Palestine.

rasoforos

01-06-2009, 21:07

no. only when you are banned you become a martyr.

Are you sure? Does that mean I wont be getting my 'Hamas honorary member' coasters now? :beam:

:elephant::whip:

Hooahguy

01-06-2009, 21:11

Are you sure? Does that mean I wont be getting my 'Hamas honorary member' coasters now? :beam:

:elephant::whip:
i doubt it. why dont you send them an email? :beam:
jk

Furunculus

01-06-2009, 21:41

as i said earlier, its war. mistakes happen. its not like, AFAIK, the schools had giant banners on all sides that read "UN"

the UN provides satellite co-ordinates of its facilities to the IDF, so that isn't an excuse.

however it isn't the first time Hamas have used schools and hospitals as cover for terrorism.

Incongruous

01-06-2009, 21:44

Israel failing its own false ceasfire, is what this depraved episode in Israeli history will be remembered as.

The fact is that there was no real ceasfire, Gaza has been under siege for years, its people punished for finally having elected a group unwilling to bend to Western distortions of the truth and Israeli murder. Hamas is the first sign of a political mass will to end the colonial domination of a foreign invader, hell bent on a people's utter ruin, and it was a sign so abhorrent to the West that its media has almost wiped the truth of it from the face of the earth. The most dangerous sign is the constant use of the line, Hamas takeover of Gaza. The words democratic elections are washed away, allowing those in power to persecute with moral impunity (in the West) a people doing what is their's to do by right.

In term sof culture, well, all that was so magnificent about Palestine before the distaster of conquest is forgotten, left out of the picture, instead terrifying men in balaclavas take centre stage, the Ak-47 is their only tool now. Long gone from the Palestinian world are the great secular poets and universities and newspapers. Destroyed by Western Imperialism and Isreali domination. Palestine was a country and it was destroyed.

Also, forgotten is our own past of deperation and struggle, the right to self defence it seems is now reserved for us and our friends. Were the great American patriots alive today, Israel would be their Britain, a towering giant above the pitiful natives struggling for freedom. The Revolutionaries of France would be marching upon Jerusalem decrying the crimes agains man commited by this tyrant.

rasoforos

01-06-2009, 22:02

the UN provides satellite co-ordinates of its facilities to the IDF, so that isn't an excuse.

Israel keeps going on and on about how its strikes are surgical.

Judging by the status of the building this looks quite surgical to me. It gives the message that nowhere is safe for civilians. They cannot exit Gaza, they cannot seek refuge in mosques, schools (and pretty much everywhere) because 'hamas militants might be there' so they can just die. Its terrorism as good as it gets.

Both sides engage in terrorism. To keep terrorism alive you need to make sure your enemy is angry at you, angry enough to engage in activities that will justify your own means. By targeting children Israel makes sure that, through anger, support for Hamas will be strong. A strong Hamas will, in turn, allow Israel to justify its own atrocities as necessary.

Both Hamas and the Israeli government gain massive popular support by being heavy handed and unwilling to negotiate. They will both emerge victorious for not giving up to the 'enemy'. Heroic even. And with a 'valid' reason to continue their terror agendas.

...and of course 1000 or so dead Palestinians helps to keep their numbers low. They do it with kangaroos in Australia and with elephants in Africa so its cool.

Tribesman

01-06-2009, 22:12

....and yet the UN is silent when hamas rockets fall on israeli towns....

What planet do you live on ?

as i said earlier, its war. mistakes happen. its not like, AFAIK, the schools had giant banners on all sides that read "UN"
errrrr...obviously a planet very far away . The schools did have a bloody big UN banner and as Furunculus said the IDF was aware that they were UN buildings .
Its just the usual case of the IDF using UN flags for target practice .

way to take things out of context!

Oh . My humblest apologies , obviously when that is put in context you are of course wrong again .

Also, Israel bombed two UN schools.

So thats two to add to the American school , the University and the education ministry , that IDF really has a thing about education doesn't it .

Furunculus

01-06-2009, 22:35

...and of course 1000 or so dead Palestinians helps to keep their numbers low. They do it with kangaroos in Australia and with elephants in Africa so its cool.

that is a ridiculous statement.

Furunculus

01-06-2009, 22:38

The fact is that there was no real ceasfire, Gaza has been under siege for years, its people punished for finally having elected a group unwilling to bend to Western distortions of the truth and Israeli murder. Hamas is the first sign of a political mass will to end the colonial domination of a foreign invader, hell bent on a people's utter ruin, and it was a sign so abhorrent to the West that its media has almost wiped the truth of it from the face of the earth. The most dangerous sign is the constant use of the line, Hamas takeover of Gaza. The words democratic elections are washed away, allowing those in power to persecute with moral impunity (in the West) a people doing what is their's to do by right.

oh i am deeply aware that Hamas were voted in.

what i have a distinct feeling for is living with the consequences on ones actions, and voting in a ruling 'party' whose agenda is the destruction of your neighbouring 'superpower' is a deeply stupid thing to do.

Hooahguy

01-06-2009, 22:40

the UN provides satellite co-ordinates of its facilities to the IDF, so that isn't an excuse.

however it isn't the first time Hamas have used schools and hospitals as cover for terrorism.
ok then, i guess i was wrong about the banenr part.

rasoforos

01-06-2009, 22:49

that is a ridiculous statement.

Well spotted!!!

You ve seen through my deception and now my evil plan is foiled. My Hamas masters will never forgive me. :embarassed:

Its supposed to be ridiculous. It is an attempt on sarcasm. And a ridiculous situation can only be described with sarcasm for the reality of it is too grim to describe. The point though remains that in a population of 1.5 million about one in a thousand people will be killed or left disabled before this ends. It does keep their numbers down. However Israel should do better than that or else their population will bounce back.

Marshal Murat

01-06-2009, 23:52

So now your hinting towards that the UN might support terrorist organizations?
Hooah was simply pointing out that there is no international outrage about Hamas firing rockets/mortars into Israel, which is far from saying that the UN fully supports Hamas in every step. While the rockets/mortars aren't as destructive as the Israeli air force strikes, does that mean that the rocket/mortar attacks are acceptable? No, it's not acceptable.

Long gone from the Palestinian world are the great secular poets and universities and newspapers. Destroyed by Western Imperialism and Isreali domination. Palestine was a country and it was destroyed.
Palestine before "Western Imperialism" was a desert that was controlled by the Ottomans. Hardly a spectacular world. The Palestinians themselves lived lives that were mostly nomadic and had a lower life expectancy than many other populations at the time. With the "Western Imperialism" Palestinians had better chances of surviving childhood diseases and living longer lives as a whole. While that isn't to say Israel was made of angels flying on golden horses, they did improve the Palestinian condition.
That doesn't excuse the past or current treatment of Palestinians. Palestine was a wash-up after the Crusades and the local caliphates submitted to the Ottoman yoke.

Furunculus

01-07-2009, 00:21

Well spotted!!!

You ve seen through my deception and now my evil plan is foiled. My Hamas masters will never forgive me. :embarassed:

Its supposed to be ridiculous. It is an attempt on sarcasm. And a ridiculous situation can only be described with sarcasm for the reality of it is too grim to describe. The point though remains that in a population of 1.5 million about one in a thousand people will be killed or left disabled before this ends. It does keep their numbers down. However Israel should do better than that or else their population will bounce back.

no, it is just a ridiculous statement, that is all.

Tribesman

01-07-2009, 00:33

Hooah was simply pointing out that there is no international outrage about Hamas firing rockets/mortars into Israel
Which as usual happens to be complete bollox .
Some people have this selective deafness so that when people and governments condemn Hamas Islamic Jihad or Fatah they can't hear it at all , and when Palestinian groups and Israel are both condemned they only hear the bit about Israel .
Some doctors think the selective deafness is an inner ear defect , a sign of which is the complete lack of balance .

Husar

01-07-2009, 00:47

Why do people always get so upset by this subject? And why do people feel like they have to pick sides in this conflict?

Both parties have committed attrocities and in a way, you could say they act like children who refuse to grow up.

Oh I completely agree and mentioned it some pages ago but it doesn't really fit with the usual "us vs. them" kind of tribal thinking we still find in the "enlightened" west. If it helps in any way, my guess is that tribesman has a similar stance but noone notices because he is always "them" anyway. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

There were one or two others but the voices of reason are too often drowned by the waves of "Kill them!"-shouters, which shows that in a way this forum is just like the middle east. :eyebrows:

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-07-2009, 00:48

Some people have this selective deafness so that when people and governments condemn Hamas Islamic Jihad or Fatah they can't hear it at all

Is the media the one with the selective deafness then?

Hooahguy

01-07-2009, 00:56

Which as usual happens to be complete bollox .
Some people have this selective deafness so that when people and governments condemn Hamas Islamic Jihad or Fatah they can't hear it at all , and when Palestinian groups and Israel are both condemned they only hear the bit about Israel .
Some doctors think the selective deafness is an inner ear defect , a sign of which is the complete lack of balance .
actually i really am deaf in my right ear, but w/e.

about people not really caring when hamas shoots rockets into israel-
you say its bollox, but you know its true. israel is really only in the news, at least where i live, when it is attacking. i rarely see it when hamas is attacking. in fact, this thread proves it. this thread was about israels agression into gaza, but where is the thread about hamas shooting rockets?

tibilicus

01-07-2009, 18:11

So any got an opinion the proposed "ceasefire"?

Hooahguy

01-07-2009, 18:33

i just want to know if it would hold. would be overjoyed if it did.

tibilicus

01-07-2009, 18:49

Fragony

01-07-2009, 20:54

If they lifted economic sanctions on Gaza that would be a huge step forward in the peace process.

If they didn't I will be extremely disappointed as it will be back at square one 2 years down the line.

Well all these reasonable solutions kinda are based on the idea of Israel being the agressor, but that is a bit old fashioned.

Hooahguy

01-07-2009, 21:07

If they lifted economic sanctions on Gaza that would be a huge step forward in the peace process.

If they didn't I will be extremely disappointed as it will be back at square one 2 years down the line.
im assuming they would if hamas would stop launching rockets.

Idaho

01-07-2009, 23:05

700 Palestinians dead - 220 of which are children.

10 Israeli dead

This isn't a war. This is a massacre and a crime.

Hamas are dicks for the rocket attacks - but the response is disproportionate, brutal and criminal.

Watchman

01-07-2009, 23:23

im assuming they would if hamas would stop launching rockets.And I'm assuming Hamas would be somewhat less inclined to keep launching their garage-built rockets if Israel wasn't trying to hermetically isolate them. :shrug:

Hooahguy

01-07-2009, 23:32

so you are excusing hamas shooting rockets into civilian areas?

tibilicus

01-07-2009, 23:41

so you are excusing hamas shooting rockets into civilian areas?

No, he's saying that hamas would stop firing rockets if Israel would quit isolating them and stop interfering in Gaza's business.

Hooahguy

01-07-2009, 23:53

No, he's saying that hamas would stop firing rockets if Israel would quit isolating them and stop interfering in Gaza's business.
you really think that hamas will stop if israel stops?

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-07-2009, 23:58

No, he's saying that hamas would stop firing rockets if Israel would quit isolating them and stop interfering in Gaza's business.

Excuse me, but may I offer an opinion?

Bull :daisy:

Furunculus

01-08-2009, 00:07

Excuse me, but may I offer an opinion?

Bull :daisy:

agreed, they still have their stated objective to achieve.

tibilicus

01-08-2009, 01:12

Excuse me, but may I offer an opinion?

Bull :daisy:

No you may not offer your opinion as that isn't an opinion, just an uncosnstructive little comment.

Generally opinion is stated in more than one sentence, I might listen to you, and reply to you, if you can do that instead of using foul language. ~:)

tibilicus

01-08-2009, 01:25

you really think that hamas will stop if israel stops?

Well seeming Israel hasn't even attempted to negotiate with hamas since it came to power it's worth a try. I don't see you or any of the other biased Israeli supporters offering better opinions other than bomb the c**p out of Gaza and perform a complete wipe out what infrastructure that it has left. Israel has performed it's little political stunt, enough people have died, this isn't war, this is a cowards political game.

I'm saying give Gaza the chance to actually work as a functioning part of a Palestinian country. Lift sanctions so it can trade and actually start to take steps towards becoming something that remotely resembles a county, not a hell hole. If Hamas, after giving the chance to build a country and being allowed the resources to do so still continue to attack Israel then I, staunch opposition of any conflict at the best of times wouldn't even have a qualm with Israel defending itself.

Look, you need to understand you have to actually sit down and negotiate with supposed "terrorists" I can tell you after watching 20 years or so of bloody IRA,UDA and other paramilitary attacks in Northern Ireland,watching the bombing of civilians and so on that firing back gets you no where, you can fire back all you want but at the end of the day you can't kill ideology. If talks can some how be established between the two then your half way there.

This is from watching the trouble in northern Ireland and let me tell you, no matter how many IRA members elite SAS hit squads killed the movement itself couldn't be killed. What you don't realise is by attacking Gaza like this you've committed your own bloody Sunday. And believe me that's going to cost you dearly.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-08-2009, 01:45

No you may not offer your opinion as that isn't an opinion, just an uncosnstructive little comment.

Generally opinion is stated in more than one sentence, I might listen to you, and reply to you, if you can do that instead of using foul language. ~:)

I think it's a rather good summary of your opinion, as there isn't really any evidence that Hamas would stop.

Tribesman

01-08-2009, 02:01

Whats funny about the propsed deal is that Israel needs a new peace treaty with Egypt .
Hilarious isn't it , after all the complaints that Egypt isn't doing enough to secure the border Israel will have to agree to let more Egyptians up to the border .

Well seeming Israel hasn't even attempted to negotiate with hamas since it came to power it's worth a try.
That isn't really true , there have been negotiations through third parties .

actually i really am deaf in my right ear, but w/e.

What has the week end got to do with anything ?
Is that syndrome you have a manifestation of what is known as bokhim ve-yorim ?

Watchman

01-08-2009, 02:28

...as there isn't really any evidence that Hamas would stop.The evidence for the Palestinian militants stopping their experiments in applied backyards rocketry in response to having bombs thrown their way has also, AFAIK, been somewhat hard to come by overall.

It occurs to me that giving them an opportunity to actually try to govern Gaza might keep them too preoccupied for a while to cause trouble, though.

LittleGrizzly

01-08-2009, 02:34

Its not really Hamas you need to convince, its the paelstinian people, as soon as thier grievances are met thier not going to support terrorists anymore, the terrorists are going to be the more extreme portion of the society so they're going to have extreme rhetoric, but like the IRA rhetoric it will cool down once they are negoiated with

Fragony

01-08-2009, 03:50

Its not really Hamas you need to convince, its the paelstinian people,

So they can do, well what? Channel negative energy towards Hamas so they will just go away?

Incongruous

01-08-2009, 04:05

So they can do, well what? Channel negative energy towards Hamas so they will just go away?

The only reason Hamas exists is to serve the grievences of the people of Gaza, they have no real political concpt outside of the people of Gaza. Hamas exixts on the idea of resistance, not conquest.

LittleGrizzly

01-08-2009, 04:21

So they can do, well what? Channel negative energy towards Hamas so they will just go away?

Hamas does not exsist without the mistreatment of the palestinian people, without thier continued mistreatment palestinian people would over time come to accept israel is not the enemy. This does 2 things, 1) stops hamas recruiting new members (i don't think the ira really recruits many terrorists these days) 2) puts public pressure on hamas not to attack, and gives them no excuse to attack.

Seamus Fermanagh

01-08-2009, 04:25

The only reason Hamas exists is to serve the grievences of the people of Gaza, they have no real political concpt outside of the people of Gaza. Hamas exixts on the idea of resistance, not conquest.

Actually, I think you have touched upon a profound point -- though my reasoning for that assessment may not dovetail with yours.

Hamas is the "ruling" political force in Gaza. They are involved with useful public works and they have -- at least by local standards -- commendably less corruption (a bane, possibly THE bane of goverment) problems.

Nevertheless, they have failed to really change gears from a force of resistance to a governing body...yet it is precisely that transition they must make if they are to -- on the larger level --succeed. They can choose conquest or cooperation, but either way they must rise to the level of true governance if they are to move forward. Without such a shift, failure is inevitable even if they do shatter Israel.

Israel should be condemned for doing the same-old/same-old and expecting a different answer. May play well to the home electorate, but it won't resolve anything.

Proportionality in warfare is, to some extent, a silly idea. A true quid-pro-quo is likely to kill everyone very slowly without achieving any measurable change. I'm not advocating a single bombing generating nuclear immolation of the entire nation supporting/harboring those bombers -- there are some levels of response that truly are counterproductive -- but simple tit-for-tat doesn't make sense either.

Marshal Murat

01-08-2009, 04:56

A desert?

Is this serious? I can't tell. I mean, seriously?
I'll admit that Palestine isn't a desert like Saudi Arabia, but we aren't talking about lush fields of wheat either with rolling green hills. Palestine is rocky, hilly, desert in the south, and has a Jordan River Basin that is lush with local water.

Source 1 (http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm)

Arab population also increased at an exceptional rate. According to records, about 18,000 non-Jews entered Palestine between 1930 and 1939 when there were more or less reliable figures. In the same period, about 5,000 non-Jews left. This does not count illegal immigration of course, or immigration prior to 1930. Economic analyses show that by the 1930s the standard of living of Palestinian Arabs was approximately twice that of Arabs in surrounding countries, whereas in Ottoman Turkish times it was lower than in surrounding countries.

Really, prior to Israel, Palestinian history centers on Jerusalem as the site of Muhammad's ascent into heaven. I'm sure the great poets and mathematicians of Islam visited or lived in Palestine, but Palestine wasn't and isn't known as a source of geniuses or philosophers.

Source 2 (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_brief_history.php)

The first three centuries of Ottoman rule isolated Palestine from outside influence. The discovery of sea routes to the East began to erode the importance of the Middle East to commerce. In 1831, Muhammad Ali, the Egyptian viceroy nominally subject to the Ottoman sultan, occupied Palestine. Under him and his son the region was opened to European influence. Ottoman control was reasserted in 1840, but Western influence continued. The Ottoman tax system was ruinous and did much to keep the land underdeveloped and the population small.

So don't give me crap about not understanding all about Palestine. Clearly we both have areas that need some growth, but seriously, grow up.

But to get back to the original topic.
I can only hope that Israel has accomplished it's goals. We've let them bomb Gaza, take it to the streets, and prevent rocket attacks for the next couple weeks, maybe months. Ceasefire that both sides can agree on.

I would be the first to suggest that Israel allow an open border, somewhere. I don't understand why Egypt is so very anti-Gaza. Explanation please?

LittleGrizzly

01-08-2009, 06:01

Economic analyses show that by the 1930s the standard of living of Palestinian Arabs was approximately twice that of Arabs in surrounding countries

And how does that compare to now in 2009, saying the israeli's have improved the palestinians condition is rubbish...

Fragony

01-08-2009, 08:54

So they can do, well what? Channel negative energy towards Hamas so they will just go away?

Hamas does not exsist without the mistreatment of the palestinian people

Keep dreaming :juggle2:

It is really of no use having this discussion if it's has to be held witheen these limits, it's the leftist dogma about causes of terrorism, that cartoon I posted earlier nails it.

Incongruous

01-08-2009, 09:00

Is this serious? I can't tell. I mean, seriously?
I'll admit that Palestine isn't a desert like Saudi Arabia, but we aren't talking about lush fields of wheat either with rolling green hills. Palestine is rocky, hilly, desert in the south, and has a Jordan River Basin that is lush with local water.

Source 1 (http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm)

Really, prior to Israel, Palestinian history centers on Jerusalem as the site of Muhammad's ascent into heaven. I'm sure the great poets and mathematicians of Islam visited or lived in Palestine, but Palestine wasn't and isn't known as a source of geniuses or philosophers.

Source 2 (http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_early_palestine_brief_history.php)

So don't give me crap about not understanding all about Palestine. Clearly we both have areas that need some growth, but seriously, grow up.

But to get back to the original topic.
I can only hope that Israel has accomplished it's goals. We've let them bomb Gaza, take it to the streets, and prevent rocket attacks for the next couple weeks, maybe months. Ceasefire that both sides can agree on.

I would be the first to suggest that Israel allow an open border, somewhere. I don't understand why Egypt is so very anti-Gaza. Explanation please?

Again, desert? Must be why the Israelis were so picky about the land they recieved.

Hey look its the middle east, must be all sandy and stuff:smash:

So in the 1930's Palestinian growth was good, sounds right, however compared to what they lost a decade later, I am sure they would have given it up for the right to be a nation.
Grizzly summed it up pretty well, what you wrote was bollocks and always will be.

If you question the skill of Palestinain scholarship at the turn of the last century then I would advise you to stope using the internet and read a book.

So, no I won't grow up in a way which would allow me to agree with your utter bollocks.

as to this

I can only hope that Israel has accomplished it's goals. We've let them bomb Gaza, take it to the streets, and prevent rocket attacks for the next couple weeks, maybe months. Ceasefire that both sides can agree on.

:2thumbsup: That is A grade absurdity right there. I mean, big ups for that.

You have let them, take land which is not theirs, persecute for more than fifty years the native population in the most disgusting of manners, rape pillage you name it they have done it. After all that time, if Israel has not done what it needs to do, then it should be a clear indicator that sooner or later THEY WILL LOSE.

Tribesman

01-08-2009, 10:14

Oh well the inevitable has happened , Hezballah has joined the party

Husar

01-08-2009, 10:17

It is really of no use having this discussion if it's has to be held witheen these limits, it's the leftist dogma about causes of terrorism, that cartoon I posted earlier nails it.

Well, it's obviously the rightist dogma to never try something new and just beat up everybody who disagrees with the rightist dogma until they are all dead/broken or comply with the rightist dogma.
Considering this method has been used throughout most of history and most of history had a lot of wars, violence and oppressed people, I don't really think it is always the best solution but then again why don't we repeat the silly mistakes of our fathers(look, no females)? After all we're really proud of them. :wall:

It's funny how Hamas holds the same rightist views thinking that bombing all Israelis to hell is the only solution that will ever work. And if they haven't died yet, they're still bombing the :daisy: out of eachother...

Furunculus

01-08-2009, 10:21

Well seeming Israel hasn't even attempted to negotiate with hamas since it came to power it's worth a try. I don't see you or any of the other biased Israeli supporters offering better opinions other than bomb the c**p out of Gaza and perform a complete wipe out what infrastructure that it has left. Israel has performed it's little political stunt, enough people have died, this isn't war, this is a cowards political game.

I'm saying give Gaza the chance to actually work as a functioning part of a Palestinian country. Lift sanctions so it can trade and actually start to take steps towards becoming something that remotely resembles a county, not a hell hole. If Hamas, after giving the chance to build a country and being allowed the resources to do so still continue to attack Israel then I, staunch opposition of any conflict at the best of times wouldn't even have a qualm with Israel defending itself.

Look, you need to understand you have to actually sit down and negotiate with supposed "terrorists" I can tell you after watching 20 years or so of bloody IRA,UDA and other paramilitary attacks in Northern Ireland,watching the bombing of civilians and so on that firing back gets you no where, you can fire back all you want but at the end of the day you can't kill ideology. If talks can some how be established between the two then your half way there.

This is from watching the trouble in northern Ireland and let me tell you, no matter how many IRA members elite SAS hit squads killed the movement itself couldn't be killed. What you don't realise is by attacking Gaza like this you've committed your own bloody Sunday. And believe me that's going to cost you dearly.

Why should a nation state negotiate with a terrorist group that doesn't recognise its right to exist and whose main aim is to push it into the sea? The IRA wanted the British out of ireland, not an end to the UK itself and the level of threat they represented was minimal compared to that faced by israel.

I'm saying stop the rockets, stop the terrorism and i would give you an opportunity to see if you can govern a polity.

You can discredit an ideology by demonstrating its enduring failure to achieve its ends, at which point you negotiate from a position of strength. I too watched NI, however i have come to a different conclusion to you.

The process is called infiltration and subversion, and yes it does involve more than SAS squads capping terrorists, and it does work.

Fragony

01-08-2009, 10:26

Well, it's obviously the rightist dogma to never try something new

What do you mean, Israel has disbanded settlements, the result? Hamas celebrated it as a victory, rockets fly deeper into Israel. Israel keeps itself to the peace-treaty, the result? Well we all know the result. More rockets. Israel is trying something new, what they should have done decades ago.

https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/Fragony/aanvalisrael.gif

Tribesman

01-08-2009, 10:39

The IRA wanted the British out of ireland, not an end to the UK itself
Actually they did want an end to the UK , the clue being that people who objected to this are called Unionists because they don't want an end to the union that is the UK .
What you meant was they didn't want an end to Great Britain itself , as that is what the SNP want not the IRA .

Banquo's Ghost

01-08-2009, 10:49

Oh well the inevitable has happened , Hezballah has joined the party

Not necessarily. Reports are indicating that it is the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, General Command. Apparently he hasn't denied responsibility. (Cries of "Splitter" now compulsory).

Tribesman

01-08-2009, 10:50

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

What do you mean, Israel has disbanded settlements
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
They took 8000 illegal settlers out of Gaza and moved 12000 illegal settlers into the West bank , it did so beacause despite the illegal settlers holding a quarter of the land in Gaza it just wasn't economicly viable for them down there

Israel keeps itself to the peace-treaty
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Don't be silly Frag . Israel has not kept to the peace deal at all .:dizzy2:

Israel is trying something new, what they should have done decades ago.

Bloody hell ?????
It is not trying something new , it is trying the same old failed crap that it has tried for decades .

Tribesman

01-08-2009, 10:54

Apparently he hasn't denied responsibility.
Sounds like the INLA , "what do you mean he is busy ?"

Fragony

01-08-2009, 11:13

Bloody hell ?????
It is not trying something new , it is trying the same old failed crap that it has tried for decades .

Well I am sad to see that Israel is doing the same old failed crap it has tried for decades, some stockholm-syndromed Israeli's apparantly are willing to talk again when they should be going into the motorsuit-business.

Hooahguy

01-08-2009, 13:08

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Don't be silly Frag . Israel has not kept to the peace deal at all .:dizzy2:

and neither has hamas. do you really expect israel to keep their part of the deal if hamas hasnt? :dizzy2:

tibilicus

01-08-2009, 13:33

I think it's a rather good summary of your opinion, as there isn't really any evidence that Hamas would stop.

Well maybe state your opinion before criticizing others. .:2thumbsup:

Why should a nation state negotiate with a terrorist group that doesn't recognise its right to exist and whose main aim is to push it into the sea? The IRA wanted the British out of ireland, not an end to the UK itself and the level of threat they represented was minimal compared to that faced by israel.

I'm saying stop the rockets, stop the terrorism and i would give you an opportunity to see if you can govern a polity.

You can discredit an ideology by demonstrating its enduring failure to achieve its ends, at which point you negotiate from a position of strength. I too watched NI, however i have come to a different conclusion to you.

The process is called infiltration and subversion, and yes it does involve more than SAS squads capping terrorists, and it does work.

I fail to believe that as a UK resident yourself you can say that Hamas poses a bigger threat than the IRA. The IRA were well armed, good guerilla fighters and successfully targeted and bombed key economic targets of the UK. Hamas have rockets, no advanced technology, the IRA in a similar fashion made use with make shift bombs and the like. If the IRA wanted to they could of launched rocket attacks but the fact is they didn't need to or want to as it would go against their fighting style and would be outside of the objectives they wanted to achieve of targeting the UK's infrastructure in Northern Ireland.

Look how the IRA successfully held down "Free Derry" and the amount of time they held it for. A group that posed a small threat couldn't do that. The fact the IRA were never that huge in numbers shows that with numbers they had they could already operate an effective campaign.

Furunculus

01-08-2009, 13:51

I fail to believe that as a UK resident yourself you can say that Hamas poses a bigger threat than the IRA.

not to me as a UK citizen, no. but i didn't say that.

hamas absolutely represent a bigger threat to israelies than the ira ever did to brits.

Husar

01-08-2009, 15:10

and neither has hamas. do you really expect israel to keep their part of the deal if hamas hasnt? :dizzy2:

If they want more support from me than Hamas then yes. Give me a reason to support you more or I give equal amounts of money to both sides.

Fragony

01-08-2009, 16:07

If they want more support from me than Hamas then yes.

How does that logic work? All I am saying, is give war a chance. With Fatah in charge the situation will improve.

Seamus Fermanagh

01-08-2009, 16:21

Tribes:

Stop splitting hairs. Yes, you are correct in that any call for the return of the 6 northern counties to the Republic would be a dissolution of the "United Kingdom of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland." The IRA provos did, indeed, seek to dissolve that union.

However, what the poster really meant -- which you are aware -- is that the IRA had no designs (offically at least) on Scottish or English territory. Hamas (or at least notable elements thereof) really would prefer for ALL of Israel to cease to exist.

Now, you could dig into the motivations of some of the IRA/Provo/Splinter IRA groups and argue that they were part of the Soviet expansion of communism effort, and that success in the 6 would only have led to a pause followed by efforts in England and Scotland, but I think that level of detail was a bit beyond what the poster intended in drawing his analogy.

rasoforos

01-08-2009, 16:25

http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/world/2009/01/07/holmes.gaza.boy.cnn

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/07/gaza.red.cross/index.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/07/israel.gaza.school/index.html

No escape...no way out apart from death...

No journalists allowed to see...

No Red Cross/Crescent access allowed...

UN Staff attacked...and killed...

Hundreds of civilians dead...

Its Deathcamp Gaza now.

Nothing more, nothing less. Talk all you want, but that's what it comes down to.

rory_20_uk

01-08-2009, 16:31

But that's OK as some of them want to destroy all If Israel for completely incomprehensible reasons.

As long as the IDF keep blasting, eventually they'll realise that it's Hamas that are forcing a bigger, stronger country to kill them. All they have to do is stop Hamas and then Israel might think about letting some food in now and again.

~:smoking:

Hooahguy

01-08-2009, 17:16

Its Deathcamp Gaza now.

Nothing more, nothing less. Talk all you want, but that's what it comes down to.
werent you just warned for comparing israel to nazis?

Watchman

01-08-2009, 17:48

hamas absolutely represent a bigger threat to israelies than the ira ever did to brits.Then the IRA must not have been much of a threat, as the number of IDF active-service personnel - fully trained soldiers of a modern, well-equipped army - alone is something like several times the number of ragtag, lightly armed gunmen Hamas has at its disposal...

And, oh yeah, Israel almost certainly had nukes the last I heard.

Jaysis. Perspective.

Ronin

01-08-2009, 17:50

werent you just warned for comparing israel to nazis?

he said deathcamp...he didn´t say anything about nazis.

Seamus Fermanagh

01-08-2009, 17:56

"Deathcamp" and "nazi" have been conflated terms for decades now. Denotatively different, of course, but the connotative connection is well known. To refer to one is to imply the other -- and I don't know any of our BR posters here who are dumb enough not to know that. You're a pretty bright group.

Besides, calling it a deathcamp doesn't fit the facts. Deathcamps were murder factories. Gaza is besieged (with all the historical nastiness that condition implies). The facts of the situation in Gaza are grim enough in themselves without the meritricious additions.

Hax

01-08-2009, 18:05

However, Israel is violating the rules according to the Conventions of Geneva.

You cannot deny that.

Furunculus

01-08-2009, 18:10

Furunculus

01-08-2009, 18:12

Then the IRA must not have been much of a threat, as the number of IDF active-service personnel - fully trained soldiers of a modern, well-equipped army - alone is something like several times the number of ragtag, lightly armed gunmen Hamas has at its disposal...

And, oh yeah, Israel almost certainly had nukes the last I heard.

Jaysis. Perspective.

compared to hamas, no.

we had nukes too, but last time i checked we never threaded to nuke the ira....................

Hooahguy

01-08-2009, 18:13

However, Israel is violating the rules according to the Conventions of Geneva.

You cannot deny that.
and so is hamas by shooting rockets into civilian areas.

you cannot deny that

Tribesman

01-08-2009, 18:26

and neither has hamas. do you really expect israel to keep their part of the deal if hamas hasnt?
Works both ways
Do you really expect hamas to keep to the deal if Israel hasn't ?
And since what was written was ....Israel keeps itself to the peace-treaty
What was your point ? oh you don't have one:dizzy2:

Besides, calling it a deathcamp doesn't fit the facts.
Yep it doesn't fit the facts , the Vatican were more accurate calling Gaza a concentration camp , or that Israei proffesor calling it an open air prison .

you cannot deny that
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
One major difference is that Israel is a signatory to the conventions so they are supposed to abide by them .:idea2:

Hooahguy

01-08-2009, 18:29

so hamas can go and massacre hundreds of citizens if it wants to because they didnt sign? :inquisitive:

rory_20_uk

01-08-2009, 18:33

so hamas can go and massacre hundreds of citizens if it wants to because they didnt sign? :inquisitive:

I feel the more pertinent issue is Israel doing it - irregardless of what a piece of paper states.

~:smoking:

tibilicus

01-08-2009, 18:37

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7818577.stm

:no:

As that article explains Israel has the coordinates of UN run facilities which they have been bombing.

What exactly do UN facilities and aid have to do with Hamas?

hiding terrorists in the food bags? smuggling rockets in medical supply's?

What excuse can israel have for this? Is their aim really that bad? If it is they should really train their armed forces a bit better.

Hooahguy

01-08-2009, 18:39

I feel the more pertinent issue is Israel doing it - irregardless of what a piece of paper states.

~:smoking:
so basically you say its ok for hamas to do it, but you go all up in arms if israel is accused of doing it.

Hooahguy

01-08-2009, 18:41

Slyspy

01-08-2009, 18:43

so basically you say its ok for hamas to do it, but you go all up in arms if israel is accused of doing it.

Err, yes. The reason why should be obvious.

rory_20_uk

01-08-2009, 18:44

Hamas isn't doing it. Israel is. That is the pertinent issue. I hope you can try not to infer bias in this again.

To humour you: no, I don't think Hamas should attack Israel and kill 700 and rising people, blow up buildings and cut off Israel's food and water. That would be bad. I don't think Hamas should have nukes either.

I don't think there should be a situation in Palestine where people in desperation vote for a group like Hamas.

~:smoking:

Hooahguy

01-08-2009, 18:45

Err, yes. The reason why should be obvious.
the point is that if the reasons for outrage is humanitarian, you should be equally outraged at both sides.

rory_20_uk

01-08-2009, 18:49

what do you think the secondary explosions were within the facilities after the IDF hit it?
also happened with the mosque, which was turned into a weapons storage compound.

Do you have a link for that?

the point is that if the reasons for outrage is humanitarian, you should be equally outraged at both sides.

How about a ratio of outrage based on purely the deaths caused in this current conflict as it's difficult to put a figure on the rest of the misery (treatable deaths due to destroyed infrastructure etc etc)

Palestinians: 700. Estimated over half civilian casualties
Israelis: under 20

~:smoking:

Slyspy

01-08-2009, 19:01

the point is that if the reasons for outrage is humanitarian, you should be equally outraged at both sides.

Believe me I hold both sides equally in contempt. The fanatics on both sides are foolish, weak willed, short sighted and hateful people led by the vainglorious and the powerhungry. And the longer the conflict continues the greater their numbers swell.

The reasons that Israel comes in for more criticism than Hamas are numerous. Mostly it is because they are the Western democracy taking on the mantle of terror, whereas Hamas is the Arab terrorist outfit taking on the mantle of democracy. There is also an element of "us and them", whereby we see our own culture and values reflected in Israel and so are disappointed when she strays.

rvg

01-08-2009, 19:05

How about a ratio of outrage based on purely the deaths caused in this current conflict as it's difficult to put a figure on the rest of the misery (treatable deaths due to destroyed infrastructure etc etc)

Palestinians: 700. Estimated over half civilian casualties
Israelis: under 20

~:smoking:

So, what exactly is your point here? Is Israel obligated to wait until Hamas evens out the body count in order to proceed with the military campaign?

Watchman

01-08-2009, 19:06

compared to hamas, no.Would you then please proceed to explain to us befuddled sceptics how, exactly, does Hamas pose a threat greater than "nuisance" to Israel, anyway ? The friggin' surrounding Arab states, which actually have proper armies, weren't posing a real threat to Israel's continued existence anymore in the '73 Yom Kippur war (as they were out to recapture some lost territory before the superpowers blew the whistle to end the match) and have thereafter not bothered to be more than minor nuisances at best.

Hamas has a bunch of irregulars with small arms, some homemade rockets and a ghetto almost entirely dependent on continued foreign aid for its continued survival. I'm kind of having a hard time here seeing the part where they are a meaningful threat to Israel, the regional military superpower.

we had nukes too, but last time i checked we never threaded to nuke the ira....................Yeah, wonder why. And the fact the things were zeroed in on Russian cities wasn't the main reason, even.
Not the point though, as I mentioned it to underline the rather absolute disparity in raw power at the two sides' disposal.

rvg

01-08-2009, 19:21

Hamas has a bunch of irregulars with small arms, some homemade rockets and a ghetto almost entirely dependent on continued foreign aid for its continued survival. I'm kind of having a hard time here seeing the part where they are a meaningful threat to Israel, the regional military superpower.

They aren't a threat precisely because Israel does not *allow* them to become one. Every once in a while they require a proper whipping from the IDF in order to keep them in line.

Watchman

01-08-2009, 19:25

Uh, yeah. And pray tell what'd they have if the IDF didn't occasionally drop an :daisy: of bombs on them and kill a bunch of civvies on the side - marginally more ragtag irregulars with small arms ?
:dizzy2:
Fearsome. I can see how they're quaking with fear in Tel Aviv at the mere thought.

Strike For The South

01-08-2009, 20:36

Why is this any more different then when Israel kills a couple thousand Arabs? The only reason I ask is because this happens quite often and this is a very very long thread.

Color me unimpressed. Wake me when we start getting in the ten thousands range and then I might be bothered to look.

Hooahguy

01-08-2009, 21:09

Do you have a link for that?
thats just what i heard on the radio- how secondary explosions rocked the buildings.

Hooahguy

01-08-2009, 21:14

The only reason I ask is because this happens quite often and this is a very very long thread.

indeed... imagine- 22 pages for a tiny little country that is less than 1/2 the size of my lovely state of Georgia! :2thumbsup:

Papewaio

01-08-2009, 22:52

So, what exactly is your point here? Is Israel obligated to wait until Hamas evens out the body count in order to proceed with the military campaign?

Both diplomacy and justice are based on reciprocity and proportional response. Israel can defend itself by all means.

They aren't a threat precisely because Israel does not *allow* them to become one. Every once in a while they require a proper whipping from the IDF in order to keep them in line.

You do realise that this 'proper whipping' is killing about a third children. First and foremost remember that all this collateral damage is human, adults and children, that the median age in Gaza is 17.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-08-2009, 22:56

Out of the 758 dead the Palestinian MoH estimates about 350 dead. Hamas has also executed Palestinian civilians for "collaboration with Israel."

EDIT: And when complaining about the dead, stop mentioning the 758 figure, unless you believe that Israel shouldn't fire on militants.

EDIT II: This isn't directed against anybody in particular.

EDIT III: And those civilian deaths are almost impossible to avoid, because of the ways Hamas integrates with the civilian population.

rvg

01-08-2009, 22:56

Both diplomacy and justice are based on reciprocity and proportional response. Israel can defend itself by all means.

You do realise that this 'proper whipping' is killing about a third children. First and foremost remember that all this collateral damage is human, adults and children, that the median age in Gaza is 17.

Civilian casualties are regretable, but practically impossible to avoid.

Guildenstern

01-08-2009, 23:11

Civilian casualties are regretable, but practically impossible to avoid.
I think Israeli Rules of Engagement seem to be very simple. They are to execute any human that is not an Israeli.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-08-2009, 23:13

I think Israeli Rules of Engagement seem to be very simple. They are to execute any human that is not an Israeli.

Somehow I doubt that.

Watchman

01-08-2009, 23:32

EDIT III: And those civilian deaths are almost impossible to avoid, because of the ways Hamas integrates with the civilian population.Then maybe Israel shouldn't shoot at them with high explosives in the first place...? :dizzy2:

Guildenstern

01-08-2009, 23:46

Somehow I doubt that.
I'm able to distinguish between a terrorist organisation that has vowed to wipe its neighbour off the map, and a sovereign nation defending itself against these terrorists. But I firmly believe that the level of the offences and the enormity of the actions by Israeli soldiers in the Gaza Strip are disproportionate. I think that the right to self defence can be exercised within limits.

Andres

01-08-2009, 23:53

Civilian casualties are regretable, but practically impossible to avoid.

I know an easy way to avoid civilian casualties: don't attack :shrug:

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-08-2009, 23:55

Then maybe Israel shouldn't shoot at them with high explosives in the first place...?

I know an easy way to avoid civilian casualties: don't attack :shrug:

So you are both essentially in favour of Israel sitting back and taking rocket attacks, and not utilizing the right to defend itself?

Tribesman

01-09-2009, 00:00

Guildernstern , you would do better with that line if you went for the IDf rules of engagement in Lebanon where they simply declared that there were no civilians so they could cover the place with cluster bombs .

thats just what i heard on the radio- how secondary explosions rocked the buildings.
Secondary explosions mean nothing without a forensic examination .
It did make me laugh when they said about secondary explosions after they blew up the university science classrooms .:dizzy2:

Andres

01-09-2009, 00:01

So you are both essentially in favour of Israel sitting back and taking rocket attacks, and not utilizing the right to defend itself?

Well, I think I made my point of view on this matter pretty clear in my previous posts.

I'm all for peace. As long as rockets and bullets are floating through the air, there won't be no peace.

Somebody in this conflict has to be the first to stop killing people :shrug:

Rhyfelwyr

01-09-2009, 00:03

So you are comparing Israels actions to a crazed dictator who thought he was on a mission from god .
Thats errrrr.....thats anti-semetism that is :laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Sorry that this is OT, but Cromwell is one of the single most brutally judged characters in history. I know the Protestants carried out many atrocities in Ireland, but you can't pin them on Cromwell and in the grand scheme of things not even the New Model Army - they acted within the accepted rules of war of the time, and they were only in Ireland in the first place because the common folk participating in the native rebellions had failed to do so.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 00:05

Hamas is never going to play nice with Israel. Look at their founding charter. Whatever Israel does, Hamas is never, ever, ever going to be peaceful.

Watchman

01-09-2009, 00:23

So you are both essentially in favour of Israel sitting back and taking rocket attacks, and not utilizing the right to defend itself?Israel is going to be suffering such attacks, in one form or another, as long as it's going to insist on being a stubborn ass about the Eretz Yisrael thing. So meh. Build a house in a swamp, and the mosquitos will sting you.

On a more practical note, the rocket attacks are essentially a gesture and cause few if any casualties. Conversely, the Israeli reprisals are very destructive and cause huge numbers of casualties. Do the damn math. If they now must strike back, they could at least try to do it in a fashion that didn't cause massive collateral damage.

Hamas is never going to play nice with Israel. Look at their founding charter. Whatever Israel does, Hamas is never, ever, ever going to be peaceful.Ink on paper, self-declared. Realpolitik tends to sideline such heady declarations something fast once the situation changes. Bet you the same was once said about the USSR and their grandiose hot air about "perpetual world revolution" and the IRA regarding the UK...
Hell, more likely than not the PLO/Fatah too.

So yeah.

Hosakawa Tito

01-09-2009, 00:28

EDIT III: And those civilian deaths are almost impossible to avoid, because of the ways Hamas integrates with the civilian population.

The only thing more precious to Hamas than dead Israelis is dead Palestinians...

Incongruous

01-09-2009, 01:07

so basically you say its ok for hamas to do it, but you go all up in arms if israel is accused of doing it.

Yes, an occupying colonial force invokes by its impressement upon the natives, a foreign and brutal rule, the natural consequence of bloody reprisal. You want to play conquest then you have to accept the terms.

Israel hs never held to any peace treaty, has constantly been warring upon the Palestinian people and is a rogue state of the most heinous sort. Thank god that their bank is going down, justice cannot be too far off.

Incongruous

01-09-2009, 01:12

The only thing more precious to Hamas than dead Israelis is dead Palestinians...

:dizzy2:

Yeah right, another score for Western distortions of the truth, the belief that Hamas are in some way an extremist group (this will be funny in a few decades) and that they are also in some way apart from the people of Gaza.

Hamas is Gaza, they were born in Gaza, their families dot the many streets of Gaza, without Gaza there is no Hamas. Everytime a Gazan is murdered by Israel, it will usually in some way affect at least one member of Hamas.

Hamas do not use the people of Gaza, they are the people of Gaza.

John Pilger speaks out

http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=519

Fighting in Gaza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Iyxc5EHtrU

Well, you get the idea, no?

Strike For The South

01-09-2009, 01:35

Just like the NAZIs didnt use the people of Germany? Or Stalin the Soviets?

Pluhhhheeeeeeseeeeeeee.

Hooahguy

01-09-2009, 01:41

this sums it up pretty well:

https://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa73/hooahguy14/image001.jpg

Incongruous

01-09-2009, 01:53

Just like the NAZIs didnt use the people of Germany? Or Stalin the Soviets?

Pluhhhheeeeeeseeeeeeee.

Hmm, well, which nation does Hamas want to wipe off the face of the earth? If you answer Israel, you are...

An idiot and a fool.

Which nation is Israel taking active steps to destroy?
starts with P, followed by alastinians.

Strike For The South

01-09-2009, 01:53

Pardon for going OT but Hooah what is a Jewrican?

Bopa you always overestimate how much I give a damn when it comes to this subject. Frankly we should give the most money to the side that says the will ethnically cleanse in the shortest amount of time. That way my news will go back to covering to more important things like American Idol and two headed farm animals.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 01:56

Hmm, well, which nation does Hamas want to wipe off the face of the earth? If you answer Israel, you are...

An idiot and a fool.

Well, I always knew Hamas was foolish... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Antisemitism)

Incongruous

01-09-2009, 02:00

Well, I always knew Hamas was foolish... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Antisemitism)

Well if you are not only trying to claim that Hamas wishes to destroy Israel but are using Wikipedia to back it up instead of the actual statement made by Hamas a while back, then yes I am afraid you are.

Incongruous

01-09-2009, 02:01

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 02:05

Well if you are not only trying to claim that Hamas wishes to destroy Israel but are using Wikipedia to back it up instead of the actual statement made by Hamas a while back, then yes I am afraid you are.

Fine, have the Hamas Covenant itself:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.

[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and

international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of

the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than

a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of

Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by

Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a

waste of time, an exercise in futility.

Strike For The South

01-09-2009, 02:06

Yes, I feel we have been here before, I perhaps should remove my Raging Bull goggles when replying to you?

Whatever gets you to stop listening to that horrid abomination you call music.

Incongruous

01-09-2009, 02:11

Fine, have the Hamas Covenant itself:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/880818a.htm

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

Yet you continue in absurdity!

Anyone who knows something about Hamas knows that they reviewed that little gem a while back.

Watchman

01-09-2009, 02:24

this sums it up pretty well:

https://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa73/hooahguy14/image001.jpg:dizzy2:
"...but first we'll drop a million tonne high explosives on them from outer space and that'll show those cowards."
- random Marine at Fallujah, according to a snarky Swedish cartoon

Your oh-so-clever cartoon forgot the attack helos, tanks, artillery and fighter jets from the picture, methinks.
Or the little detail that the IDF doesn't particularly care if there's a baby in cart in the way. Never did to begin with.

LittleGrizzly

01-09-2009, 02:33

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 02:39

Anyone who knows something about Hamas knows that they reviewed that little gem a while back.

Google doesn't appear to know anything about Hamas.

It does know that Hamas wants the withdrawl of Israel to at least the 1949 lines and the withdrawl from all Palestinian territory before it will negotiate a long-term truce, in the worlds of Khaled Mashal.

Tribesman

01-09-2009, 03:00

Fine, have the Hamas Covenant itself:

Yes lets have a look at that badly written piece of crap...oh sorry you didn't did you , you have a brief from the Israeli government instead .:dizzy2:

this sums it up pretty well:

Wow unbelievable , that Israeli soldier in the cartoon is actually following the order that came about after a big struggle in the Israeli courts that he shouldn't hide behind human shields .
Now if only every soldier in the "most moral army" would follow those orders eh .

Incongruous

01-09-2009, 04:12

It does know that Hamas wants the withdrawl of Israel to at least the 1949 lines and the withdrawl from all Palestinian territory before it will negotiate a long-term truce, in the worlds of Khaled Mashal.

Ummm, so what?

In my view Israel is completley illegal and a colonial construct unworthy of existence, if the Jews had wanted safety in Palestine they should have organised something with the Arabs, not stolen their land.

As for the supposed extremism of wanting to claim back what is rightfully yours while allowing others to keep some of it, I laugh very loudly.
the only acceptable borders are those of 1949, all others are a continued act of agression worthy of millitary defiance on the part of the natives of Palestine.

Seamus Fermanagh

01-09-2009, 04:26

Wasn't it British territory at the time?

Or, effectively, UN territory administered for the UN by the British?

According to international law, the UN could dispose of this territory more or less as it saw fit. That suggests that the original 1947 UN mandate for Israel was not "stolen" -- though one could argue that the UN didn't emphasize/appreciate the desires of the locals and nearby neighbors.

I acknowledge that anything aside from the 1947 boundaries (including Gaza) would be a separate issue. Those territories were acquired by Israel by various means, but were never sanctioned by the UN as part of returning the mandate territories to local control.

Watchman

01-09-2009, 04:30

The last I checked the Arabs kind of lived on it at the time. That's usually regarded as counting for something...

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 04:31

The last I checked the Arabs kind of lived on it at the time. That's usually regarded as counting for something...

Great! When do we get Prussia back?

Watchman

01-09-2009, 04:34

Dunno, but remind me again, what were you basing your claim on it on again?

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 04:35

Dunno, but remind me again, what were you basing your claim on it on again?

The same thing you're basing yours on. We possessed it once, so we naturally deserve it back. ~;)

Watchman

01-09-2009, 04:36

Who's "we" ?

Incongruous

01-09-2009, 04:36

Great! When do we get Prussia back?

Note that the Palestinians did not lose a war after trying to dominate and conquer their neighbours, they lost a war trying to defend their land.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 04:42

Note that the Palestinians did not lose a war after trying to dominate and conquer their neighbours, they lost a war trying to defend their land.

Right. What about the land we lost after the First World War then? Surely we deserve that back?

:laugh4:

Watchman

01-09-2009, 04:44

I seem to recall you were being fairly, uh, offensive that time around as well.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 04:45

I seem to recall you were being fairly, uh, offensive that time around as well.

Not the first time I've heard that Germany started the First World War. Not the first time it's been inaccurate either.

Watchman

01-09-2009, 04:48

You're going to have a very hard time arguing that the various ambitions of Imperial Germany weren't a pretty darn major factor in the process that led to it, though.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 04:51

You're going to have a very hard time arguing that the various ambitions of Imperial Germany weren't a pretty darn major factor in the process that led to it, though.

Sure. But I'm hoping you understand my point. Does France deserve Quebec back? What about Poland, does it deserve the territories toward the east? I've come to terms with the fact that some of the lands of my origin will probably never be under the governance of my people again. Perhaps Hamas should do the same, and come to terms with the current political situation.

Watchman

01-09-2009, 04:55

Erm, the last I heard the Quebecans were still there... not sure about the Poles, I'd have to read up on it.

On a more practical note though, you seem to be forgetting that the Palestinians are rather lacking anywhere to go and live in - which isn't quite the case with the examples you've thrown around. And it's reduced them to a sufficient misery they're willing to go to fairly extreme lenghts to try to rectify the situation.

So, your comparisions held water where again...?

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 04:59

Erm, the last I heard the Quebecans were still there... not sure about the Poles, I'd have to read up on it.

Are there no Palestinians in Israel? None? Is there a single Palestinian in Israel leading a relatively normal life?

On a more practical note though, you seem to be forgetting that the Palestinians are rather lacking anywhere to go and live in - which isn't quite the case with the examples you've thrown around. And it's reduced them to a sufficient misery they're willing to go to fairly extreme lenghts to try to rectify the situation.

Yawn. You're missing the point.

Anyway, Israel can afford to continue retaliating. Palestinians cannot. So once Palestinians realize this and decide to stop firing the rockets, perhaps a solution can be reached.

By the way, I added on to my post. Here:

I've come to terms with the fact that some of the lands of my origin will probably never be under the governance of my people again. Perhaps Hamas should do the same, and come to terms with the current political situation.

That is the point.

Incongruous

01-09-2009, 06:50

:laugh4:

Awsome, you realise that you are talking tosh and so you descend into creating absurd diversions, now why don't we get back to the part where you said Hamas wanted to destroy Israel, shall we?

So, Hamas does not wish to destroy Israel and would very likely lay down its home made weapons if Israel returned to the '67 borders. However, even this I warrant will in the long term not be enough to stop the Palestinians from seeking further justice, that is, the full Israeli withdrawal to its UN suggested borders and apology for being such an awful neighbour. Seems just and right to me. In any case, as soon as the US loses Hegemonic status, Israel will be in trouble. I suggest they and their supporters start changing things for the better now.

Fragony

01-09-2009, 09:07

I think Israeli Rules of Engagement seem to be very simple. They are to execute any human that is not an Israeli.

That's what a friend of mine thinks as well, but he reads quality newspapers and watches the news, he can't help it.

Husar

01-09-2009, 09:43

How does that logic work? All I am saying, is give war a chance. With Fatah in charge the situation will improve.

It's very simple, if you expect me to embrace you and call your enemy scumbags then maybe you should not behave like a scumbag yourself. Giving war a chance, very nice, maybe you would like to repeat that in the face of someone who lost his whole family in that war you so readily approve of?
Would you feel the same way if I embraced the bombing of Rotterdam in 1940 or whenever that was? Yeah, don't know when it was but at least we showed those dutch beards who has the power. :dizzy2: *

the point isn't that Hamas are actually nice guys, the point is that when you throw 500pound bombs into civilian areas, your usual excuse of "surgical strikes" stops working and your "collateral damage" are whole families who may have nothing to do with Hamas. If I lost my family that way I might just join Hamas myself or just form my own terrorist group because you know, that would really piss me off. :thumbsdown:

*That's just hypothetical my dutch brother

Fragony

01-09-2009, 10:00

It's very simple, if you expect me to embrace you and call your enemy scumbags then maybe you should not behave like a scumbag yourself. Giving war a chance, very nice, maybe you would like to repeat that in the face of someone who lost his whole family in that war you so readily approve of?

Sure no problem.

the point isn't that Hamas are actually nice guys, the point is that when you throw 500pound bombs into civilian areas, your usual excuse of "surgical strikes" stops working and your "collateral damage" are whole families who may have nothing to do with Hamas

How many percent of the Gaza population are children? 60 or so? Even more? And how many percent of these casualties are children? Does that sound like just throwing daisy-cutters on civilian area's to you? Yes surgical strikes.

Furunculus

01-09-2009, 10:24

I would also like to laugh at the absurdity of Hamas gathering away from populated areas, firstly the place is fairly packed, secondly are hamas supposed to pick some field and all gather up and wait for israel to bomb them ? They haven't got a jungle like vietnam to fight a guerilla war in, and would be massacared trying to aviod civilian casualtys, so if they believe in thier cause, and im sure the ones who put thier life on the line do, its incorrect to describe it as cowardice more fighting by any means possible ?

They should stay away from kids more though!

that the palestinian people are represented politically by a group that:
a) has the stated aim of destroying its neighbourhood superpower
b) launching attacks at said superpower from the hospitals and schools of its populace

tells me that:
1) the palestinians in gaza are deeply stupid, and will sadly pay a high price for that stupidity
2) Hamas moral legitimacy to act as a valid political representative of their nation, to other nations, is nil.

if the palestinian people are willing to pay that price:
i) more power to them i say, if they succeed in creating a palestinian state out of the ashes of israel then they deserve to reap the rewards
ii) that doesn't mean that I will treat their politcal representatives as anything other than what they are, a bunch of terrorists

Furunculus

01-09-2009, 10:27

Wow unbelievable , that Israeli soldier in the cartoon is actually following the order that came about after a big struggle in the Israeli courts that he shouldn't hide behind human shields .
Now if only every soldier in the "most moral army" would follow those orders eh .

wow, no pleasing you. you are actually complaining about a political system that acts responsibly and a military that obeys those responsible political directives. tough crowd.

Furunculus

01-09-2009, 10:30

In my view Israel is completley illegal and a colonial construct unworthy of existence, if the Jews had wanted safety in Palestine they should have organised something with the Arabs, not stolen their land.

As for the supposed extremism of wanting to claim back what is rightfully yours while allowing others to keep some of it, I laugh very loudly.
the only acceptable borders are those of 1949, all others are a continued act of agression worthy of millitary defiance on the part of the natives of Palestine.

sadly for your sense of injustice, that has no bearing on legal reality, and israel is indeed about as valid a nation state as exists anywhere.

the matter of the occupied territories is another matter, but that does negate israels right to exist.

Furunculus

01-09-2009, 10:50

Bopa you always overestimate how much I give a damn when it comes to this subject. Frankly we should give the most money to the side that says the will ethnically cleanse in the shortest amount of time. That way my news will go back to covering to more important things like American Idol and two headed farm animals.

tend to agree with this sentiment.

LittleGrizzly

01-09-2009, 10:50

So let me get this right, if britian manages to invade a country and take it over successfully today, then tommorrow the residents have no more valid claims on the lands because you now we'd have to go through 1000's of years of history giving everyone thier land back.... Great!

this sums it up pretty well:

Really ? to me the solidiers seem to be eqaully well equiped, your missing some tanks and some f-15's there....

Maybe a more accurate picture would be a bunch of rag tag gunmen hiding among some houses with aircraft wizzing over head and bombs exploding everywhere...

so hamas can go and massacre hundreds of citizens if it wants to because they didnt sign?

It is a bit difficult to hold people to treaty's they didn't sign, it doesn't mean im happy for them to commit war crimes but they didn't sign up saying they wouldn't. Im pretty sure they could be brought up for war crimes though, bring the palestinian and israeli leadership in and punish them both for thier crimes... imo.

Keep dreaming

It is really of no use having this discussion if it's has to be held witheen these limits, it's the leftist dogma about causes of terrorism, that cartoon I posted earlier nails it.

Yes logic can be a bit annoying, hmm out of interest then Fragony why the hell does Hamas exsist if not because of the grievances of the palestinian people ?!

Did palestinians wake up one day and decide it would be fun to start killing israelis ?

You can argue that palestinians or hamas response to thier grievances that they have is too much or unfair or bad, but too deny that hamas exsists because of palestinians grievances just completely flies in the face of logic... your reasoning is quite simply absurd on this frag

a few questions if you'll humor me frag,

1) Why does Hamas exsist if not because of the grievances of the palestinian people ?

2) If the palesinians do have grievances and israel saw to these complaints, do you think the palestinians would still engage in terrorism ? and why ?

3) If the palestinian grievances are seen to and they no longer support terrorism as a result, do you think hamas would still be able to operate without local support ? and if so... how ?!

However, what the poster really meant -- which you are aware -- is that the IRA had no designs (offically at least) on Scottish or English territory. Hamas (or at least notable elements thereof) really would prefer for ALL of Israel to cease to exist.

I don't think it downplays the issue that it was northern ireland they had designs on, northern ireland is part of britian as much as london or glasgow is. Well this isn't completely the same point as hamas wanting israel off the map, it does make a very good point (which is maybe the point tribes was trying to make) and that is when you deal with peoples legitimate grievances the terrorists will (whether they want to or not) withdraw thier extreme claims and become more moderate as grievances are settled.

The whole place is alot more radicalised and worse off than the ireland england situation but hearts and minds can work all the same...

Fragony

01-09-2009, 11:03

It's quite simple why Hamas exists LittleGrizly, this isn't about Palestina it's about Israel, Palestina is just the frontline of the propaganda-war between the west and the east. And if you wonder why Palestines support them, go to youtube and do a search for "Palestinians killing Palestinians", make sure you are 18+, and don't go if you have a general dislike for walls with holes in it.

LittleGrizzly

01-09-2009, 11:03

that the palestinian people are represented politically by a group that:
a) has the stated aim of destroying its neighbourhood superpower
b) launching attacks at said superpower from the hospitals and schools of its populace

tells me that:
1) the palestinians in gaza are deeply stupid, and will sadly pay a high price for that stupidity
2) Hamas moral legitimacy to act as a valid political representative of their nation, to other nations, is nil.

if the palestinian people are willing to pay that price:
i) more power to them i say, if they succeed in creating a palestinian state out of the ashes of israel then they deserve to reap the rewards
ii) that doesn't mean that I will treat their politcal representatives as anything other than what they are, a bunch of terrorists

Well i agree with what your saying to a certian point, but israel has pushed the palestinians to more and more extremity and now use that extremity as an excuse for thier actions, alot of the fault for palestinian terrorism lies with israel causing it...

I heard the vatican the other day (peace and justice spokesman) said the place is starting to resemble a concentration camp more and more every day, he has a point i think the wording its just likely to cause upset and let israeli supporters concentrate on the insult of the matter rather than dealing with the point behind it, a much more accurate statement would have compared it to something like the warsaw ghetto. I cheer when i see movies representing these people fighting back, even though it got them all killed in the end, far better to go out fighting. And i think this of the palestinians to a certian extent, starved of basic nessecities and pushed to the extreme of not caring for thier lives aslong as they can hit the enemy back....

Bopa you always overestimate how much I give a damn when it comes to this subject. Frankly we should give the most money to the side that says the will ethnically cleanse in the shortest amount of time.

The main problem there being.... the israeli's are obviously in the far better position to dio the ethnic cleansing, but once they kill of all the palestinians aren't we going to just cause a hell of alot more terrorism...

If were going to go nazi style on it then lets do it properly and just kill both groups off, noone can have any accusations of bias then...

LittleGrizzly

01-09-2009, 11:10

this isn't about Palestina it's about Israel, Palestina is just the frontline of the propaganda-war between the west and the east.

I now hamas is supported by various financial backers throughout the middle east, the source of income for the terrorist group is no really all that important, obviously it has some importance but what a terrorist organisation needs more than money if commited fighters ready to die for the cause..

So without palestinians grievances there would be nobody for hamas to recruit to fight israel ?

Or do you disagree ?

We really seem to disagree on basics here so im trying to figure out some basic logic we can both agree to so that we can discuss the issue better... ill get on to trying to dispute or disprove your view if we can some basic agreement on the issues and causes as without a little agreement somewhere we may just end up shouting opposing views at each other... occasionly fun but rather pointless...

Fragony

01-09-2009, 11:23

Or do you disagree ?

Yes, if Palestina was a second Dubai with golden watertaps Israel would still be a jewish state it wouldn't make any difference they would just fire better rockets.

LittleGrizzly

01-09-2009, 11:36

Yes, if Palestina was a second Dubai with golden watertaps Israel would still be a jewish state it wouldn't make any difference they would just fire better rockets.

So even if all palsetinian grievances were met you think

1) they would still attack israel ? and why ? because they have some illogical hatred of jews which is nothing to do with thier grievances ?

2) the population would still be willing to fight and die with and in support of hamas ? or would hamas just operate without palestinians wanting them to ?

Andres

01-09-2009, 11:39

Yes, if Palestina was a second Dubai with golden watertaps Israel would still be a jewish state it wouldn't make any difference they would just fire better rockets.

Just to make sure I understand your viewpoint correctly.

You believe that as long as there are Jews and Arabs in the region, there will be war?

You believe peace between those two groups is not possible and thus there are only two options:
a) one group has to leave, either by moving out are getting eliminated entirely (genocide?);
b) leave as it is (i.e. let them throw rockets at each other every once in a while), since a) is worse than b)?

With a strong preference for b), I assume?

Fragony

01-09-2009, 11:48

Why genocide, Hamas needs to be weakened so the much more moderate Fatah can step up. Talking with Hamas gets you nowhere never did never will, Fatah wants a Palestinian state Hamas wants to destroy Israel, Abbas is someone you can negotiate with they key is in the lock. I am sure Fatah will be more then willing to tie things up with the leftovers after all that has happened.

1) they would still attack israel ? and why ? because they have some illogical hatred of jews which is nothing to do with thier grievances ?

2) the population would still be willing to fight and die with and in support of hamas ? or would hamas just operate without palestinians wanting them to ?

Yes and yes.

Husar

01-09-2009, 11:48

Sure no problem.

the point isn't that Hamas are actually nice guys, the point is that when you throw 500pound bombs into civilian areas, your usual excuse of "surgical strikes" stops working and your "collateral damage" are whole families who may have nothing to do with Hamas

How many percent of the Gaza population are children? 60 or so? Even more? And how many percent of these casualties are children? Does that sound like just throwing daisy-cutters on civilian area's to you? Yes surgical strikes.

Oh, no sounds, just pictures (http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/01/scenes_from_the_gaza_strip.html).

the funny thing is that the description saying missiles on the first picture is clearly wrong because as you can see these things look a lot more like bombs, simple bombs. And what do you call several bombs falling to the ground in succession? Yes, carpet bombing...
Oh and btw carpet bombing does not equal surgical strike.
Neither does shelling them with artillery or blowing up a mobile medical clinic.
And if you had such large craters in your body after a surgery, I'd sue the surgeon my friend. ~;)

Look, I approve of shooting those Hamas rocketeers by going in with guns etc. but leave the civilians alone, don't beat them or anything and concentrate on actual surgical strikes targeting those who actually do fire those nasty rockets into israel that can't even damage a road (but still kill people).

And by the way, the israeli army looks like a bunch of rebel scum on those pics( ~;) ), isn't there anything more to their uniform than "it has to be warm and look kinda green"?

Andres

01-09-2009, 11:51

LittleGrizzly

01-09-2009, 12:03

Yes and yes.

ok, just to clarify those answers (as i worderd the questions badly your yes could mean one of two things)

Is it the palestinian people that would continue to attack israel regardless of grievances being met or hamas ?
and why ?

and for the other question did the yes mean that hamas could still operate in the area regardless of palestinian views or that palestinians would support hamas regardless of thier grievances being met ?

Fragony

01-09-2009, 12:20

Is it the palestinian people that would continue to attack israel regardless of grievances being met or hamas ?
and why ?

Hamas. Because.

and for the other question did the yes mean that hamas could still operate in the area regardless of palestinian views or that palestinians would support hamas regardless of thier grievances being met ?

Yes they could still operate regardless, been to youtube already? Also do a search for Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini while you are there.

Tribesman

01-09-2009, 12:24

wow, no pleasing you. you are actually complaining about a political system that acts responsibly and a military that obeys those responsible political directives. tough crowd.

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
That comeback might work if the IDF didn't keep getting caught on camera using human shields .:dizzy2:
As for a responsible political system , how many rulings by the Israeli supreme court does the government of Israel completely ignore ?
One nice set of repeated rulings that ties in with
Are there no Palestinians in Israel? None? Is there a single Palestinian in Israel leading a relatively normal life?

would be the ruling on the Palestinian refugees in Israel who have had their land stolen and are not allowed to return to it by the government even though the courts have ruled that they must have their land back as the siezure was illegal and must be allowed to return to it .

According to international law, the UN could dispose of this territory more or less as it saw fit.
Not really , there were lots of terms and conditions .
The main conditions broken were the "fair and equitable" and the "it being clearly understood" .
Though it could also be said that the Jewish agency broke its licence to be recognised as an administrative body when it banned settlers from employing locals .

Great! When do we get Prussia back?
Did your country sign a treaty giving Prussia away ?

What about the land we lost after the First World War then? Surely we deserve that back?

Did your country sign a treaty giving that land away ?
If you can find a treaty doing the same for Palestine/Israel then you might have a point .:yes:

Watchman

01-09-2009, 12:31

Fragony

01-09-2009, 12:39

Seems to me like your position is more and more collapsing into the reductionist failure of "Arabz/Muslimz iz teh eval", Frags... :smash:

That is your mind playing tricks on you making you see things that aren't there, I sayz Hamas is evil if I thought muslims were evil I wouldn'twant Fatah to step up. I mean how do you guys manage to mentally block what Hamas is pretty clear about? Like water from a duck it just slides off.

Watchman

01-09-2009, 12:45

Fragony

01-09-2009, 12:55

They can rant and rave for cheap populist points all they want; they've thus far been in the position where Realpolitik has not much interfered with it. Such grandiose rhetoric rarely survives long the praxis of governing a society and having to do all the usual associated compromises.

Not that they can even realistically dream of making good of their high-faluting boasts either.

Basically, I flatly refuse to take such bombast at a face value; doubly so based on what I know of Middle Eastern rhetorical culture (which Israel also practices a fair bit), where exaggeration is the accepted norm.

Well if the rethoric fails to impress you how about the thousands of rockets. Hamas are scum, here for example of one of these schools that has European quality media slipping of their chairs with pacifist desire.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtgiRR0iDM

LittleGrizzly

01-09-2009, 12:58

Hamas. Because.

Because.... ?

To get someone to put thier life on the line (or literally give up in case of suicide bombing) takes very real grievances and heartache, people aren't simply willing to give up thier lives because they dislike a group, otherwise BNP woyuld be suicide bombing moques regularly. I would agree that thier rich backers (some or most of them) would keep going and thier leaders who are in it for themselves...

But do you think they can convince enough average people* without any grievances to put thier life on the line ?

If yes why would these average people throw thier lives away to kill a few israelis ? is there some kind of palestinian gene which makes them want to kill isrealis regardless of what thier lives are like ?

*they need them as thier basic foot solidiers and suicide bombers, millionaires aren't going to put thier lives on the line

Yes they could still operate regardless

theres 2 problems i have with that

1) Hamas needs regular palestinians as its foot solidiers and suicide bombers, i can accept that hamas leaders (some or most maybe) would want to keep going without any good reason, and that thier rich backers would still want thier proxy war, but without palestinian support where do they get thier grunts ?

2) Hamas needs palestinians to cooperate to help them function within the area, firstly they need to hide among the population and an unfriendly native population would simply tell the israelis where people are. Secondly hamas takes great losses all the time, what keeps it going is an unhappy native population to recruit from so it can replace all its losses, without this recruitment pool they simply die off....

been to youtube already?

Yeah... was watching some hungarian teacher stripping.... in all honesty i now what you were talking about anyway, you'll need to tell me what your paticular point about palestinian killing palestinians was, i already now it happens...

Also do a search for Grand Mufti Haj Amin Al Husseini while you are there.

If you want to make a paticular point about his actions or something he's said i will humor you and go and watch...

but i get the feeling he's just going to be an extremist with some fiery rhetoric, which tells me what exactly... that theres some crazy people out there ? that palestinians are crazy or just that hamas is crazy... ?

For example i could link you to some BNP leader saying about how all he wants to do is kill pakistanis* what would this prove exactly ? that all british are racist nutters ? or that certain conditions have led to some of the extreme elements in our society to extremity ?

Watchman

01-09-2009, 13:05

Well if the rethoric fails to impress you how about the thousands of rockets. Hamas are scum, here for example of one of these schools that has European quality media slipping of their chairs with pacifist desire.

http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=tNtgiRR0iDMThousands of rockets that achieve crap all. The suicide bombers were rather more effective on the average, I seem to recall.

Care to tell me, how many bombs and such did the PLO set off during its history ? Calmed down a fair bit now. The IRA ? Ditto. Same thing. Hamas is just in a different phase of its organisational life-cycle, namely the "blood and guts fighting" one rather than the "acceptable compromise reached" one.

As for them kiddies, bah. Did you already forget what was posted earlier on this thread about the Zionistjugend of the militant Israeli colonists on the West Bank ? Pot, kettle. The terrifying Hamas Preschool Brigade at least isn't out doing bad things to people and property...

Fragony

01-09-2009, 13:13

Thousands of rockets that achieve crap all.

Actually they are breeding a whole new type of jew, jewish children who grew up under constant threat of rocket-attacks, who realise that no matter what they do the world will condemn them, and they will stop caring. It's achieving a whole lot.

The unheard;

http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/fendel/entry/the_impact_of_palestinian_rocket

Andres

01-09-2009, 13:22

That is your mind playing tricks on you making you see things that aren't there, I sayz Hamas is evil if I thought muslims were evil I wouldn'twant Fatah to step up. I mean how do you guys manage to mentally block what Hamas is pretty clear about? Like water from a duck it just slides off.

Well, I don't think Hamas is the main problem. Kill each and every member of Hamas and I'm pretty sure there will be several new Palestinian organisations ready to attack Israel in no time.

Hamas itself isn't the problem, it's merely a symptom of something deeper.

The problem is that thus far, for decades, both parties have always been using violence to try to solve their conflict.

As long as bullets and rockets are floating through the air, nothing will ever change.

And somebody has to be the first to stop shooting. Killing people is not the solution (One would think that after decades of killing, both parties would understand that by now, but alas :shame:).

I am outraged about these attacks by Israel, just like I'm outraged by any attack from terrorists.

The worst mistake you can make as an outsider is picking a side in this conflict.

Watchman

01-09-2009, 13:23

Actually they are breeding a whole new type of jew, jewish children who grew up under constant threat of rocket-attacks, who realise that no matter what they do the world will condemn them, and they will stop caring. It's achieving a whole lot.

The unheard;

http://cgis.jpost.com/Blogs/fendel/entry/the_impact_of_palestinian_rocketThey didn't seem to care too much back in '48 already, though.
Massive tears.
That also begs the question of what do you suppose it does to the Palestinian kids to have the IDF playing at live-fire urban renewal around their neighbourhood every few months...?

Fragony

01-09-2009, 13:43

They didn't seem to care too much back in '48 already, though.
Massive tears.

Being exterminated does odd things to people, funny how you can't bring up any understanding for that, being exterminated is somewhat more then being harrased while at your daily stone-throwing festivities.

That also begs the question of what do you suppose it does to the Palestinian kids to have the IDF playing at live-fire urban renewal around their neighbourhood every few months...?

Yes the obvious and expected counter, but Israel isn't the agressor Israel is the victim. The minute the state was made the arab states were out for it's extermination, what could be the difference with Jordan, Iraq, Syria and all the other new states? Take a pick

a) It was the best piece of land
b) it is a jewish state.
c) I want to say Gah.

Killing people is not the solution

Yes it is

Andres

01-09-2009, 13:59

Killing people is not the solution

Yes it is

Well, both sides have been trying that approach for decades now and it doesn't seem to work :shrug:

Unless peace in the region is not what you desire, then killing people is ok, I guess.

Fragony

01-09-2009, 14:09

Well, both sides have been trying that approach for decades now and it doesn't seem to work :shrug:

Unless peace in the region is not what you desire, then killing people is ok, I guess.

If Israel wanted arabs dead they would be dead. If Israel wants Hamas dead Hamas would be dead, but European :daisy: expect Israel to behave to our oh-so-recent standards in a place on earth that isn't anywhere like oh-so-recent Europe. That annoys me to no end it's so incredibly unfair why don't we aproach the world the way it is instead how how salon-socialists want it to be?

Tribesman

01-09-2009, 14:09

but Israel isn't the agressor Israel is the victim.
Bollox , it is both

The minute the state was made the arab states were out for it's extermination
No they were not . Besides which the State you talk of being made has never actually existed .

Yes it is
Is that the final solution you are pushing Frag ?:dizzy2:

Tribesman

01-09-2009, 14:14

If Israel wants Hamas dead Hamas would be dead
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
Israel needs Hamas , thats why it doesn't want it dead .
Just like Hamas needs Israel or it wouldn't exist.

Andres

01-09-2009, 14:19

If Israel wanted arabs dead they would be dead. If Israel wants Hamas dead Hamas would be dead, but European :daisy: expect Israel to behave to our oh-so-recent standards in a place on earth that isn't anywhere like oh-so-recent Europe. That annoys me to no end it's so incredibly unfair why don't we aproach the world the way it is instead how how salon-socialists want it to be?

Well, the region we are discussing would be much better of if it was entirely inhabited by jewish and arab salon socialists.

Yes, it would get boring after a while, listening to all those self righteous :daisy: who think they know it all, patronising everybody who dares to come near them and just keep blah blah blah-ing until you would start crying and beg them to please keep their nonsense and naive fairy tales of peace for them for at least 5 minutes.

But they wouldn't be killing each other... :smash:

Fragony

01-09-2009, 14:23

No they were not . Besides which the State you talk of being made has never actually existed .

Neither did Belgium.

Is that the final solution you are pushing Frag ?

If that final solution would be Hamas, then yes. If it's the Palestinians, then no.

Israel needs Hamas , thats why it doesn't want it dead .
Just like Hamas needs Israel or it wouldn't exist.

True, so we have now made a full circle and it all comes together, hence my claim that the Palestine is just the frontline of the propaganda war between the west and the east, tada.

LittleGrizzly

01-09-2009, 14:27

BTW frag i had a few questions if you would be so kind, not just out to score points it is good to now what the 'other side' believes...

Actually they are breeding a whole new type of jew, jewish children who grew up under constant threat of rocket-attacks, who realise that no matter what they do the world will condemn them, and they will stop caring. It's achieving a whole lot.

Actually they are breeding a whole new type of paelstinian, palestinian children who grew up under constant threat of rocket-attacks, who realise that no matter what they do Israel will attack them, and they will stop caring. It's achieving a whole lot.

Being exterminated does odd things to people, funny how you can't bring up any understanding for that, being exterminated is somewhat more then being harrased while at your daily stone-throwing festivities.

Are you trying to claim israeli's are being exterminated whilst palestinians simply have thier stone throwing activities disturbed ?!

You couldn't call either an extermination but the statement would much more accurately describe the palestinian plight than the israeli one. Unfortunately for those with a pro israeli viewpoint numbers DO matter when it comes to words like extermination...

what could be the difference with Jordan, Iraq, Syria and all the other new states? Take a pick

a) It was the best piece of land
b) it is a jewish state.
c) I want to say Gah.

errm, you missed the obvious one... D) A bunch of foriegners coming in and creating a new country* and displacing the local population

Yes the others where also new countrys but they were simply a big empire divided into much smaller sections without much real effect to the natives, israel was something completely different

Killing people is not the solution

Yes it is

So tell me, do you think terrorism can be defeated simply by killing terrorists, because its an absurd idea, without addressing the underlying problems as well you simply create more terrorists...

Though admittedly if you kill off the entire palestinian population there would be no palestinian terrorism, seen as noone actually wants to do that (or pretty much noone) it basically means that terrorism can't stopped by just killing terrorists...

but Israel isn't the agressor Israel is the victim.

It isn't really a victim, through its continued taking off more and more land, complete control of basic resources and making the palestinians in some of the worst conditions in the world they have brought it on themselves...

In terms of the aggressor in this individual stage of the conflict i have heard conflicting reports, some hamas spokesman said the other day israel launched a raid which killed some hamas leader before they responded with the rockets which caused the israeli response were discussing now.... not that it matters much anyway....

In terms of the aggressor from the conflict at large you can't really put that down to the palestinian people, it was the arab states that went to war with israel, not the plaestinian people but it was then the palestinian people who suffered as a result

so you could say in terms of Arab states vs israel, Arab states are agressor

but in terms of palestinian people vs israel, israel is the aggressor...

That being said im sick of both sides claiming the other started it, they should work from where thier at today, not hark back to some war half a century ago as a good excuse for thier current occupation...

Fragony

01-09-2009, 14:51

BTW frag i had a few questions if you would be so kind, not just out to score points it is good to now what the 'other side' believes...

I know you are actually interested in discussion thx for that. You seem to be unwilling to accept such a thing such as pure hate, hate isn't rational and in a rational world hate wouldn't exist but it's not a rational world and hate can exist for no rational reason, but it exists; and for those that can use it hate is just the crowbar. Make no mistake antisemitism is rampant in the islamic world did you ever actually talk to your islamic friends? Just scratch the surface it's there, not because they are bad people there is a whole lot more to it. All the muslims I know are from former Yugoslavia I (yes me) work as a volunteer there we tag them along, they have no reason to hate Israeli's, I would assume they hate us dutchies but they don't, but they all do hate the jews regardless.

Hooahguy

01-09-2009, 14:51

No they were not . Besides which the State you talk of being made has never actually existed

it funny that you call me an idiot over this matter but in reality you are so much more clueless than you think you are.

it was british land- arabs owned very little of it. the brits can do whatever they want to it, including giving it to others. if you are saying the UK couldnt give up israel to the jews, i guess jordan doesnt exist either because if im not mistaken, the brits gave that to the arabs.

and to say that the arab states around israel didnt rush to exterminate israel is :daisy:

Dutch_guy

01-09-2009, 16:09

Killing people is not the solution

Yes it is

The thing with killing high Hamas officials is that they usually fill up the spot after the assassination. Hence you get absolutely nowhere because there's always someone to fill the position, possibly more fanatic and cunning than his predecessor. And you can't kill them all anyway, since Israel will never use it's nuclear weapon in this struggle.

:balloon2:

Seamus Fermanagh

01-09-2009, 16:21

Fragony

01-09-2009, 16:34

The thing with killing high Hamas officials is that they usually fill up the spot after the assassination. Hence you get absolutely nowhere because there's always someone to fill the position, possibly more fanatic and cunning than his predecessor. And you can't kill them all anyway, since Irael will never use it's nuclear weapon in this struggle.

:balloon2:

Works for Iraq, despite the ideological wardrums it's a better place then it ever was. And I couldn't give a :daisy: anyway, and that doesn't matter anyway, if we didn't give a :daisy: somebody else wouldn't care, rubbing them up at the wrong places. And Israel will use it's nuclair weapon when it feels it has to, make no mistake this is the situation this is every bit as bad as the cold war this can turn very very badly and it probably will.

Tribesman

01-09-2009, 16:42

it funny that you call me an idiot over this matter but in reality you are so much more clueless than you think you are.

Really ?

it was british land
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
You fall at the first step .

arabs owned very little of it
bloody hell should you have even entered the race ? you fall again , it was the Jews and Jewish agency that owned very little , depending on whose figures you use they owned between 6&8% of the land

the brits can do whatever they want to it
:daisy:

:daisy:

start with something simple like reading the terms of the mandate , then maybe go earlier and read the provisional mandate .

and to say that the arab states around israel didnt rush to exterminate israel is
:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:
:daisy:
You remember mentioning research earlier , perhaps you might try some:dizzy2:

Fragony

01-09-2009, 16:58

So the alternative history.... it just isn't true, part one;":creation cause and effect, a complete history"

Banquo's Ghost

01-09-2009, 17:51

It is strange that some posters who support the Israeli actions seem to be keen on Fatah. After all, they are hardly clean of blood.

Not that it matters, as Israel is neatly undermining them (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/the-west-bank-were-all-hamas-now--supporters-of-fatah-unite-behind-enemy-1242606.html) and strengthening their enemy, Hamas. Just as they have done every time they have tried this military destruction rather than addressing realistic negotiations.

The diplomacy championed by Mr Abbas has for years been difficult to sell to Palestinians because it has brought little or no relief from occupation or improvement in their daily lives, only the expansion of Israeli settlements. This existing frustration –which helped Hamas defeat Mr Abbas's Fatah movement in the 2006 elections – is now combined with popular anger and dismay at the carnage among fellow Palestinians in Gaza.

It has long been my position that the Palestinians should protest non-violently, in the belief that such resistance would finally invoke the consciences of those who hold power. Having taken note of the cynics, I have held to that belief in spite of mounting evidence of its naïveté.

Several instances during this campaign have caused me to question whether in fact, the Israeli forces and government have now crossed the line into considering their opponents entirely sub-human and undeserving of humanity. Not the militants, but every last person.

The ICRC has reported that their ambulances (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-under-fire-children-found-next-to-dead-mothers-1242607.html) were stopped from going to the aid of the dead and wounded for several days, and the aid workers forced to walk a kilometre to find starving children next to the bodies of their parents. Though no fighting was going on (despite half-hearted Israeli PR insistence) not a finger was lifted by the military right next door to the children. Donkey carts had to be utilised to bring out the dead and wounded because the ambulances still weren't allowed through.

In another incident, Palestinian civilians were specifically ordered to stay inside a building by the IDF for their safety. The next day, this building was shelled, killing thirty or more. This was reported by B'Tselem, a highly respected Israeli human rights organisation.

Both these events are war crimes and in direct contravention of international law. The cavalier disregard of innocent people in suffering speaks of a dehumanisation of the Palestinian people in Israeli eyes.

The ICRC is very rarely pushed to criticising the activities of combatants publicly and is regarded as completely neutral by governments around the world, so the chants of bias being readied fail.

There is no excuse for these acts, and Israel, no doubt will have another series of government enquiries that will condemn their actions - and get ignored ready for the next time. Equally without doubt is that some here will excuse them as being in a war, but this is not a mediaeval totalwar computer simulation and Israel is a state with ratified treaties committing itself to international law and its observance. The saddest irony is that much of the development of international conflict law was generated by the atrocities perpetrated on their own forebears.

Once dehumanisation is in place, there is no choice but armed struggle, because one cannot "negotiate" with animals. The Palestinian terror groups have long made this mistake, treating Israelis with utter disdain, as if all are faceless imperialists. Sadly, it seems the circle is now complete - and in the hearts of the one people on God's green earth that should know better.

:shame:

LittleGrizzly

01-09-2009, 18:12

The diplomacy championed by Mr Abbas has for years been difficult to sell to Palestinians because it has brought little or no relief from occupation or improvement in their daily lives, only the expansion of Israeli settlements.

Which is why abandoning terrorism is fairly pointless for the palestinians, they come off even worse when both sides turn to violence, but at least they get to cut the enemy and get a leg blown off in return, rather than sitting there and being bled whilst doing nothing...

Out of interest why if Fatah and mr Abbas are something better do the israelis continue to do exactly as they please ? is it because terrorism was just an excuse for the land and resource grabbing israel has practiced since its exsistence...

Edit: getting round to the rest of the points shortly, just needed to say this one now...

Ronin

01-09-2009, 18:16

Both these events are war crimes and in direct contravention of international law. The cavalier disregard of innocent people in suffering speaks of a dehumanisation of the Palestinian people in Israeli eyes.

this is hardly surprising to me....I have been to Israel twice on work, and both times I stayed there for about a month's time.
I work in the IT business and the sort of things I heard about the Palestinians from the Israelis I was working with led me to believe that they simply didn´t have any regard for them as human beings, and these were highly educated people I was working with.
The kind of things I was told, poorly disguised in the jokes I would hear at lunch time, could only be characterized as racism in any other country I have ever been in.

Guildenstern

01-09-2009, 18:54

Hooahguy

01-09-2009, 19:02

It sounds like the Israelis have never heard of nor adopted the concept of ROE (Rules Of Engagement). If the Israelis did have Rules Of Engagement, they might have been ignored or they might have been so simplistic that anything goes. I'm guessing it is the latter based upon incidents such as the ones posted by Banquo's Ghost.

Do Israeli Rules Of Engagement exist or not?
Are civilians fair targets for Israeli soldiers or not?
no, there definitly are RoE for the IDF, but they are much more lenient than the american one.
and no, the IDF does not consider civilians, who are taking no part in the conflict in any way, as fair game.
ask someone in the IDF. they will say EXACTLY what i just said about the IDF RoE.

Fragony

01-09-2009, 19:12

It is strange that some posters who support the Israeli actions seem to be keen on Fatah. After all, they are hardly clean of blood.

Sure but even when you don't have any bad intentions you sometimes have to make a choice. If you really want a diplomatic solution, why allow what prevents exactly that from happening. It's a pretty damn big comprosise to even make terms with Fatah, who's not trying.

Hooahguy

01-09-2009, 20:16

this is hardly surprising to me....I have been to Israel twice on work, and both times I stayed there for about a month's time.
I work in the IT business and the sort of things I heard about the Palestinians from the Israelis I was working with led me to believe that they simply didn´t have any regard for them as human beings, and these were highly educated people I was working with.
The kind of things I was told, poorly disguised in the jokes I would hear at lunch time, could only be characterized as racism in any other country I have ever been in.
this is also hardly surprising. most of the suicide bombers have been Palestinians, so its only human nature to dehumanize a people that blow themselves up, regadless of even if most of the people dont blow themselves up. i am friends with an anthropologist who is currently studying this.
i mean, if there was a group of people who was blowing themselves up to kill others in your country, ill bet your countrymen will dehumanize them as well.
its human nature.

Xiahou

01-09-2009, 20:29

The ICRC has reported that their ambulances (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-under-fire-children-found-next-to-dead-mothers-1242607.html) were stopped from going to the aid of the dead and wounded for several days, and the aid workers forced to walk a kilometre to find starving children next to the bodies of their parents. Though no fighting was going on (despite half-hearted Israeli PR insistence) not a finger was lifted by the military right next door to the children. Donkey carts had to be utilised to bring out the dead and wounded because the ambulances still weren't allowed through.

In another incident, Palestinian civilians were specifically ordered to stay inside a building by the IDF for their safety. The next day, this building was shelled, killing thirty or more. This was reported by B'Tselem, a highly respected Israeli human rights organisation.These incidents would be a lot easier to get outraged over, were it not for tendencies on the part of Hamas to use ambulances as troop transports (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb-93Rud0CA&) and schools (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090106/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians), hospitals and even their own mosques as weapons caches and bunkers.

Banquo's Ghost

01-09-2009, 20:40

These incidents would be a lot easier to get outraged over, were it not for tendencies on the part of Hamas to use ambulances as troop transports (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb-93Rud0CA&) and schools (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090106/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinians), hospitals and even their own mosques as weapons caches and bunkers.

Hamas are terrorists. Israel is a civilised democracy.

Incongruous

01-09-2009, 22:01

Hamas are terrorists. Israel is a civilised democracy.

Is this :daisy: taking?

Hamas are not terrorists, the belief that they are is a lie spread across the West by corporate media and general idiocy on the part of educated people. Hamas is a democratically elected movement which seeks to resist the Israeli attempts at ethnic cleansing (yes that is what it is called officially). Hamas do not wish the destruction of Israel :daisy:

Israel is a racist aparthied state which has no business calling itself civilized, from its inception its main goal has been the further conquest and destruction of the native population. The ceasfire was an Israeli sham as are all their peace deals. It is a state on par with aparthied south Africa and Saudi-Arabia and the US look like a bunch of hegemonic imperialists with its blatant support for it.

As for Seamus' right of conquest, as if mate, stop making yourself feel better about your nation being one of modern day imperialists by spouting such :daisy:. Israel is an American Empire by proxy and you know it. Without the US Israel would be a nothing, it such a shame that Obama will continue this farce called "Truth, Justice and the American Way".

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 22:34

Awsome, you realise that you are talking tosh and so you descend into creating absurd diversions, now why don't we get back to the part where you said Hamas wanted to destroy Israel, shall we?

If you can't see the point, or more likely, if you refuse to, then I may as well drop it. However, yes, let's get to the part where Hamas wanted to destroy Israel.

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

They are the fighting against the false, defeating it and vanquishing it so that justice could prevail, homelands be retrieved and from its mosques would the voice of the mu'azen emerge declaring the establishment of the state of Islam, so that people and things would return each to their right places and Allah is our helper.

Yes, an Islamic theocracy in the place of Israel. Sounds wonderful.

And why don't we move on to peace theories, which you believe Hamas will follow?

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.

...

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

Since Tribesman didn't like my last link, he can have this one. (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)

And if you say that Hamas has renounced or "reviewed" the Covenant, provide me a reliable link that says so, and that explains how it was "reviewed."

Incongruous

01-09-2009, 22:39

Why don't you go out and get a book? That is what I have done, I would advise one by a man named Khalidi.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 22:42

Why don't you go out and get a book? That is what I have done, I would advise one by a man named Khalidi.

I have evidently not heard of this, so if I'm wrong, prove me wrong by giving me a link. :dizzy2:

Incongruous

01-09-2009, 22:58

No, I usually dislike the internet and have read most of my info in books, if you are simply getting all your info from the internet then that is your problem not mine. I have suggested a noted author for you to get started on.

Or you could just read that John Pilger link I put up and go from there?

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 23:17

If it is information, it should be available from a reliable site, such as a university website. If you cannot back up your assertions, that is not my problem.

EDIT: You could also quote and give a page reference from the book in question.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 23:32

An interesting article (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20090108.wcogee09/BNStory/specialComment/home) from the Globe and Mail.

Incongruous

01-09-2009, 23:45

The only reason I can think that you are not willing to try for yourself, is that you are afraid of what you will find.

From John Pilger I doubt it would be hard to find.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 23:48

The only reason I can think that you are not willing to try for yourself, is that you are afraid of what you will find.

Or because I don't have the book you refer to. I have already attempted to Google your claims, and have turned up nothing reliable. In fact, I've turned up next to nothing at all apart from the occasional blog, which are almost always rabidly pro-Hamas in addition to the fact that they are, in fact, not reliable.

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-09-2009, 23:56

I have found some articles on Hamas dropping the specific call for the destruction of Israel, but it seems that they made the move A) for political capital and B) isn't really stopping the call for the destruction of Israel. Gazi Hamad, a Hamas candidate, said in the article that:

"Hamas is talking about the end of the occupation as the basis for a state, but at the same time Hamas is still not ready to recognise the right of Israel to exist."

EDIT: And that article is, unfortunately, out of date. Here:

http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSL1229777020070312

So Hamas did, at one point, drop the call for the destruction of Israel - only to assume it again a year later.

Tribesman

01-10-2009, 00:12

Since Tribesman didn't like my last link, he can have this one.

Thats better , the real floridly written piece of crap containing piles of nonsense .

And if you say that Hamas has renounced or "reviewed" the Covenant, provide me a reliable link that says so, and that explains how it was "reviewed."
I am sure you can find your own link to first Marzug then Yassin and then Ranissi rejecting their charter in 1994 .

no, there definitly are RoE for the IDF, but they are much more lenient than the american one.

What you men like declaring that there are no civilians ?

and no, the IDF does not consider civilians, who are taking no part in the conflict in any way, as fair game.
Is that why they have to declare that there are no civilians ?

Hamas are terrorists. Israel is a civilised democracy.
It is becoming much harder to believe that last part holds much truth .

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-10-2009, 00:14

Thats better , the real floridly written piece of crap containing piles of nonsense .

You mean the original text in full of the Hamas Covenant? Yes, it is nonsense.

I am sure you can find your own link to first Marzug then Yassin and then Ranissi rejecting their charter in 1994 .

See post #743.

Tribesman

01-10-2009, 00:41

See post #743.
you mean the one with the un-named "spokesman" ?:inquisitive:
Why not go with Hamadan or Masha'al you will like their ravings?
or for that matter why not go with Tamini who rejects the charter because it is racist and uses the forged protocols but believes in the destruction of the state because its one of those end of times things from scripture .
But the real irony is that those who rejected the Charter over 14 years ago got assasinated by ...errrr.....israel .
See Israel needs to keep the loonies alive so it can say that it can't do a deal with loonies :2thumbsup:
Israel loves Hamas in the same way it loved Arafat and Abbas , keep them frothing at the mouth so you can't do a deal then when they are ready for a deal find a new lunatic that you cannot do a deal with .

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-10-2009, 00:46

you mean the one with the un-named "spokesman" ?:inquisitive:

Tribes, it's Reuters, they're generally reliable. I've already quoted a Hamas candidate who said that Hamas does not recognize the right to exist that Israel has. The word "spokesman" isn't mentioned in the article either, by the way, it quotes a statement from Hamas.

Tribesman

01-10-2009, 00:53

I've already quoted a Hamas candidate

Which is funny since I refer to the founders and various leaders not "a candidate".

Mars a simple question .

a statement from Hamas.
What is hamas ?
A more complicated question .

the right to exist that Israel has
What right has Israel got to exist ?

Evil_Maniac From Mars

01-10-2009, 00:56

Mars a simple question .

What is hamas ?

Oh, I'm sorry Tribsey, I wasn't aware that you didn't know. Here is a good place to start. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas)

On a more serious note, Hamas issued a statement. If the Labour Party or the Republicans issued a statement, would you ask who the Labour Party or the Republicans were? Come off it.

What right has Israel got to exist ?

The same right every other state in the world has to exist, from the USA to Germany to Iraq to Syria.

EDIT: Here's an interesting graph:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Intifada_deaths.svg

From September 29th, 2000 to April 30th, 2008, less than half of the Palestinian dead have been civilians, whereas roughly three quarters of the Israeli dead have been. Some food for thought.