Testudo Legionaries

[Banzai!]

The testudo formation is sadly no longer in M2TW. However you can still mod in a testudo by editing the phalanx formation, so the guys in the second and third rows hold up their shields like so (picture). This will probably mean there will have to be special "testudo breakthrough legionaries" as otherwise the AI will keep regular legionaries in testudo.

Are there plans to implement a testudo in EBII?

https://img71.imageshack.us/img71/8328/potwrh9.jpg
https://img185.imageshack.us/img185/2122/thermopylae2mc1.jpg

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

That is not a helpful comment Appo.

To answer the OP, there are currently no plans to include the testudo, as you noted, that method replaces another formation. At the same time the practical application of the testudo was severly limited we find it used mostly in siege assaults.

[antisocialmunky]

Wait, I thought both BI shield wall and testudo were usable if you modded them. I didn't think it replaced the pike formation though.

[russia almighty]

SPQR did that; legionaries had testudo and shield wall.


What they did was, they replaced the tight formation with a working shield wall formation.

[antisocialmunky]

Making tight formation some sort of shield wall for pretty much all units wouldn't be a bad idea.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

To answer the OP, there are currently no plans to include the testudo, as you noted, that method replaces another formation. At the same time the practical application of the testudo was severly limited we find it used mostly in siege assaults.

Or in the very famous Battle of Carrhae.

So in sum...

There can be no historical Carrhae without the Testudo formation.

My two cents. I would really like to see it in EB II.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Anything not in Eb2 will undoubtably have its own mini mod. I have no worries about the testudo being left out.

[antisocialmunky]

We could just replace Schiltrom if it is at all possible. If we use tight for shield wall, pike wall for phalanx, and schiltrom for testudo; we have enough room for Testudo. Its not really an issue of slots, its an issue of figuring out how to implement it in whatever way the modders choose.

[Cybvep]

Or in the very famous Battle of Carrhae.

So in sum...

There can be no historical Carrhae without the Testudo formation.

My two cents. I would really like to see it in EB II.

There will not be historical Carrhae on RTW or MTW2 engine at all. No camels with "packs" of additional arrows, no constant harassment during withdrawal (outside of boxy battlefield, of course). There is little place for any innovation in TW battles. Also, it is much easier to control your soldiers in TW games than in reality and morale system is sometimes quite absurd. You have total control over your units, they will follow almost any order, unlike in reality. Fallen bodies do not slow down your units and do not disrupt charges. In fact, every battle contained something that cannot be accurately portrayed on TW engines. We must do whatever we can to represent semi-realistic battle results, but looking on individual soldiers or even whole units and their behaviour on the battlefield will lead us to nowhere. Testudo is one thing that will be so useless with EB battle system that it is not even worth trying to put it in.

[oudysseos]

Cybvep, that is one of the best posts on the general subject of RTW/M2TW battle realism that I have ever seen.

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

Lack of accuracy inherent in the engine is not an excuse to strip it even more of it.

Or else we could just play vanilla, add burning pigs and onagers. It's all unrealistic, isn't it? So the pursuit of realism is effectively futile, and EB has no reason to exist. Let's all play arcade games then.

If it's too much for the engine, then don't add it. Simple. But not adding because we cannot precisely simulate all the tactical and strategical factors in an EB battefield is silly at best.

[Cybvep]

Burning pigs and onagers are those types of inaccuracies that we can effectively fix. We just need to get rid of them. Also, even if, for example, one can argue that burning pigs were used once or twice during the course of history, it is not the type of unit that IMO should be included in EB, as any way of implementing it will result in vast inaccuracy. That is probably the cause of the fact that there are hardly any "special" units in EB.

Testudo formation is historical, but engine's possibilities with this formation are so poor that with realistic kill ratios and anti-Robinhooded archers it will be of no use at all. That is the price we must pay in order to gain plausible battle results. Unless, of course, EB team has prepared some sort of revolution... Unfortunately, the AI cannot use it, so even if all problems were fixed, that would be just another thing beneficial only to the player.

[antisocialmunky]

It'd only be there for aesthetic reasons like everything else. I don't think the fact that's its aesthetic should mean its taken out - just that it shouldn't be given high priority. In the end it is just a rough simulation se we can get our Ancient Battle Fix for the day. I don't think anyone seriously expects a totally realistic experience in EBII just like no one should in EBI. On a side note: Unit cohesion is alot more noticable in M2TW. You can make units much harder to control. For those of us who got MII:TW early, we learned the hard way that a lot of battles ended up being point and shoot the infantry and hope for the best. It became a real mess after lines contacted because men wouldn't pull out. I kinda miss it now after they fixed some of those issues in the patches. I believe that we even talked about modifying unit cohesion way back when for units so that barbarian units have low cohesion and disciplined units have higher cohesion.


Honestly, I'm more curious about chariots. On another side note: I remember someone back in the day in the RTW modding forums talking about making siege weapons that increase unit speed to make troop transport chariots.

[Banzai!]

Honestly, I'm more curious about chariots. On another side note: I remember someone back in the day in the RTW modding forums talking about making siege weapons that increase unit speed to make troop transport chariots.

The chariot problem has already been solved,
https://img72.imageshack.us/img72/4011/scythedzj5.jpg
https://img72.imageshack.us/img72/1386/scythed1wt0.jpg
https://img364.imageshack.us/img364/9721/scythed2wl3.jpg

[a completely inoffensive name]

My god, and there are those that argue that chariots suck...

[antisocialmunky]

These are moving scythed chariots not the-blown-over-by-a-fart Casse ones or stopped chariots.

[Banzai!]

My god, and there are those that argue that chariots suck...

https://img206.imageshack.us/img206/6365/naked1os4.jpg
https://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5185/naked3sd9.jpg

[runner3434]

How are you getting those screens?

Is it using an EBII beta?

thanks

[oudysseos]

I would guess that it all comes from Banzais Hegemon Battle for Greece (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=213722) mod for which it appears you need Stainless Steel 6.1 (and thus Kingdoms).

It all looks really cool, and I especially like the smaller map, although he has Samurai, Anubis Wardogs, Sci-Fi Armored Infantry from Halo and a steam-punk version of a Katusya rocket launcher thrown in with his Spartans and Romans. Definitely not historical, although looks like good fun.

I am wondering though, Banzai, if it's cool with the EB team that you used some of their artwork on your faction selection screens?

But really, there's some great skinning/modelling here, and kudos to Banzai for putting it all together. Warts and all, this is without a doubt the first Roman era mod for M2TW.

[oudysseos]

Hahahahahaahaha! Worth a doubel post!

Cohors Evocata Post Mortem (Extremely Veteran Post Marian Cohort)
https://img374.imageshack.us/img374/4628/skelliessy5.jpg

[Ludens]

:laugh4:

[General Appo]

Bloody brilliant!

[antisocialmunky]

Heh, but the question is whether or not they can Testudo. :-p

:balloon:

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

LOL

[The Celtic Viking]

Heh, but the question is whether or not they can Testudo. :-p

A better question yet is: "would they need to?"

[Aemilius Paulus]

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

This is the only time I'm going to say this: down with historical realism! Where can I download a mod that will turn my Evocati into skeletons!?!?!!


Oh yes, and definitely a balloon for posting that: :balloon3:

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Finally a unit that does not have to worry about archers and slingers! :laugh4:

[antisocialmunky]

/me releases the hounds. :-p

[oudysseos]

Hounds are in the mod as well. With jackal-headed zombies as their handlers, I think. Also orcs riding bears.

https://img237.imageshack.us/img237/5486/dogsgt7.jpg

[antisocialmunky]

You know, I would one up you except I can't find the video of Bradley IFVs fighting Nazgul on youtube.

[Watchman]

You know, I would one up you except I can't find the video of Bradley IFVs fighting Nazgul on youtube."Putting the 'armour' back into 'armoured cavalry'", huh...? :beam:

[oudysseos]

Shhh, don't give him ideas. Banzai'll probably put Nazgul, Bradleys, Jedi Knights and Rowdy Roddy Piper into this mod before he's done. I think he said flamethrowing wooly mammoths are next.

[theoldbelgian]

Finally a unit that does not have to worry about archers and slingers! :laugh4:

actually i can see slingers do some serious damage against those guys
you know the whole no red squishy meat stuff that protects the bone against the breaking force of a stone coming in against several kilometers an hour
i would say that these guys are the ultimate weapon of the romans against the phalanx
i mean where would you prick these guys with your long pointy stick

[General Appo]

Hmmm...is it just me or would those guys be pummeled by elephants?

[Watchman]

"Club dudes... to the front!" :smash:

I'm surprised nobody's yet pointed out the most obvious counter, either - doggies! "Let loose the dogs of war!"

[General Appo]

Ahem.


/me releases the hounds. :-p

[Watchman]

:sorry:

[Banzai!]

What happened to this thread? I asked a very serious question to a very serious issue, whether the testudo would be in EBII.

Also I am very proud of my katyusha rocket batteries; both fighting with and against.

[Megas Methuselah]

Banzai, if you ever did a quick search or actually bothered to read other threads like an intelligent person would, you might have noticed the EB Team's knack at claiming "We don't know at this time" in answer to the many questions regarding Roman units. IMPO, I believe it to be safe to assume that as an answer to your stupid question.

Remember, stupid questions deserve stupid answers, be it spam or otherwise.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Banzai, if you ever did a quick search or actually bothered to read other threads like an intelligent person would, you might have noticed the EB Team's knack at claiming "We don't know at this time" in answer to the many questions regarding Roman units. IMPO, I believe it to be safe to assume that as an answer to your stupid question.

Remember, stupid questions deserve stupid answers, be it spam or otherwise.

Ouch Meth. That was harsh. What happened to you man, you used to be about peace, love and spam.

[||Lz3||]

Don't listen to him, he was probably joking... Your work is awesome Banzai :beam:

About your question, I'm not sure, I bet the EB team doesn't know yet heheh, so I wouldn't wait for an answer now hehe. Your question was not stupid. :2thumbsup:

[Ibrahim]

well Benzai to be honest (now that I looked), even though the testudo is clearly innovative, and I like the idea of porting a testudo into M2TW, it has one small problem (judging by the pics): the testudo is ineffective-the men seem to be keeling over. Is it possible to alter bonuses per formation in M2TW, or is it hardcoaded? if hardcoaded (I suspect so), the I'm afraid it won't work in M2TW.

[antisocialmunky]

It is hard coded but Testudo is in the engine I believe.