Ideas about ETW (AI, city ancillaries, universities, parallel building, civic virtue)

[ThePianist]

Here are some ideas I thought about Empire:Total War

========== AI ==========
~ AI that holds diplomacy. The AI would first declare cessation of ceasefire or cessation of alliance before invading a territory of another faction or attacking the army of another faction. This is especially true in the 19th century. It would be great to require that of human players as well.

~ It would be great if when there is a ceasefire or alliance between player faction and faction X, the diplomacy of ceasefire or alliance had a measurable life-bar (almost like a person's influence bar) that can be increased with
-- diplomatic actions by player faction
-- alliance between player faction and other allies of faction X

and decreased with

-- hostile actions by player faction, or allies thereof, against faction X (such as sabotage, etc)
-- attack on the faction X 's allies by player faction, or allies thereof
-- bribing or other influence from allies of faction X that are at war with player faction.

this would be displayed on the diplomacy list

~ customizable AI (for custom campaigns) so that an AI faction can be programmed to make war with X faction in Y year, or make peace with X faction in Y year. This can be put in something like EmpireTotalWar/Data/scripted-events.txt

faction name
{(war, X faction, Y year) (peace, Z faction, A year) (...)}


========== Resources ==========

I thought about a numerical count of horses in each province and a numerical count of iron/steel in each province, that one be needed to train cavalry and the other be needed to manufacture firearms and cannons and munition. This would make trade and the development of mining meaningful. It would also make blockades meaningful. It doesn't have to be very easy to run out of horses or iron/steel, or it would be boring. But it could be available as a possibility. However, I put the ideas in this paragraph to the least priority compared to the ideas in the other paragraphs. It's also the only paragraph unmarked with a leading punctuation.

========== Distance to Capital City ==========

~ Having posted this before, I merely mention it here again briefly, so as to bring together all my suggestions about ETW. It would be great to have distance to capital city not be a factor in the unrest, or be a tiny factor, so as to make it easier to maintain order in the cities. it would be great to have it as a multiplier of unit upkeep cost. That would be realistic. So that a unit of grenadiers in Britain cost nearly nothing in upkeep, but in India or far away places their upkeep per turn would be a lot.

========== Cities and Provinces ==========

~ City Ancillary: Instead of merely characters having ancillaries, the cities could also have ancillaries. In RTW there are four folder tabs in the user interface of a city: Building / Army / Agents / blank The fourth tab could be Ancillaries. The first ancillary could be the city leader, a local person. The player can decide between installing his general as governor or having an indigenous governor, which would greatly change the unrest and cultural differences. The other ancillaries of the city could be famous artists of their time, like Beethoven, Mozart, etc. They could be put into a city as ancillaries to increase the happiness level.

~ Instead of a spy in a city merely causing unrest, there could be the option of concentrating several spies in a city and organize a loyalist rebellion, resulting in the grabbing of a province without invasion.

~ Instead of massacring the population to change the unrest level, there could be some other ways of doing peacekeeping in a province

~ It would be great if individual provinces/cities can be acquired as protectorates. They would be allies and tributaries but not direct territories. This would be a better portrayal of much of Europe.

~ It would be great if after a port is built, the port can be clicked on and have its own upgrade menu. This would allow for more build options without cluttering the build menu of the city

~ ability to built restaurants in a city, in addition to drinking places

========== Parallel Building ==========

~ in a large city, there would be more manpower and it would be great if the two leftmost buildings on the queue get built at the same time, rather than merely one. In other words, it would be great if large cities can built multi-task and one building and another building at the same time. For example, a military building and a cultural building being built at the same time.

========== Universities and Academies ==========

~ It would be great if academies were required to do some scientific advances, and they could be built as an independent building in a province, that can be clicked on and with its own menu

~ academies and universities should give more bonus than +5% law in a province.

~ great thinkers and scientists and intellectuals of their time can be deposited there as ancillaries

~ ability to build West Point, Annapolis, Sandhurst, Saint-Cyr, etc. Ancillaries could be Clausewitz and Jomini, if possible. Many-star generals can go there and be added as teaching ancillaries. Either young military leaders can be recruited from these military universities, or existing military leaders can go there and get their traits upgraded as students

~ ability to build Oxford and Cambridge, etc., people can go there to upgrade their management traits and influence/leadership traits

~ ability to build Harvard and Yale, Christian preachers can upgrade their leadership and virtue spreading capability there

========== Civic Virtue ==========

~ it would be great if democracy was correctly simulated as needing civic virtue. The civic virtue can be raised by Christian preaching (not merely buildings). If civic virtue is below a certain level, corruption will be so high as to make government nearly impossible or very difficult/onerous. And countries can't be changed to democracies if the population doesn't have a certain level of civic virtue.

[Sir Beane]

Pretty much all of your ideas are fantastic. I especially like the resources section, and the idea of cities being able to acquire ancillaries.

It would be fantastic from a roleplaying point of view of a city had a chance to acquire certain buildings or famous people to represent them setting up shop in one of your cities.

For instance a big enough city could have various guilds, clubs and groups set up, giving various bonuses.

Also a similar idea to your parallel building. A city should have a certain number of 'build points' based on how larg a city is, its population, and maybe govenors traits and building bonuses. Each building would cost a certain number of points, with big buildings costing more. That way we could build multiple smaller buildings in a turn or so, but larger buildings would take longer.

[Sheogorath]

It would be nice to see different breeds of horses, although I doubt it's going to happen.

Once again, being more familiar with the Russians, I know that the average Russian war horse was smaller than the Western standard, but had much better endurance (Apparently Russian soldiers could out-march Western horses :winkg:)
Being able to pick out and supply different types of horses to different units (And, of course, different weapons), would be great. But far too complicated for the TW-style of game.

[Sir Beane]

It would be nice to see different breeds of horses, although I doubt it's going to happen.

Once again, being more familiar with the Russians, I know that the average Russian war horse was smaller than the Western standard, but had much better endurance (Apparently Russian soldiers could out-march Western horses :winkg:)
Being able to pick out and supply different types of horses to different units (And, of course, different weapons), would be great. But far too complicated for the TW-style of game.

The complex economy and resource management that this sort of idea hints at is actually something I wouldn't mind Total War games experimenting with. Actually having to have iron deposits to build iron weaponry, needing horse stock for certain units etc.. it's the sort of thing that could really enhance the campaign map experience if done well, and also make the game more of a challenge.

It would be nice if these resources were geographically linked, rather than for factions. So if France took over parts of Russia they could eventually train Russian super-endurance ponies as well as European fast-but-easily-spent chargers. That way you could mix and match horsies for enhanced equine combat. Or create some kind of uberhorse bred from both :laugh4:.

[ConnMon]

I like Sir Beane's point on how units shouldn't be faction specific, but more of a region specific make. In M2TW, it doesnt make sense that I can take over a town that was training a set of totally different set of units before, but somehow the facilities change to accomadate my units. This might make retraining a bit tricky though... :inquisitive:

[Sheogorath]

The complex economy and resource management that this sort of idea hints at is actually something I wouldn't mind Total War games experimenting with. Actually having to have iron deposits to build iron weaponry, needing horse stock for certain units etc.. it's the sort of thing that could really enhance the campaign map experience if done well, and also make the game more of a challenge.

It would be nice if these resources were geographically linked, rather than for factions. So if France took over parts of Russia they could eventually train Russian super-endurance ponies as well as European fast-but-easily-spent chargers. That way you could mix and match horsies for enhanced equine combat. Or create some kind of uberhorse bred from both :laugh4:.

What we need to do is crossbreed Civilization and Total War, for Civilization: Total War.

But yes, that sort of thing would enable factions to be represented better than before. But poor implementation could hurt the game badly. Remember Imperial Glory? Ugh. :blankg:

Now, good implimentation (such as in Civ IV, where you just had to POSSES the resource and not worry about the whole 'I NEED 200 IRONS TO MAKE A CANNON DURR') would be excellent, and the basics are already in place for such a system. It would probably be possible to make it happen fairly simply, since they already had it in place for elephant and camel units, way back in RTW.



I like Sir Beane's point on how units shouldn't be faction specific, but more of a region specific make. In M2TW, it doesnt make sense that I can take over a town that was training a set of totally different set of units before, but somehow the facilities change to accomadate my units. This might make retraining a bit tricky though... :inquisitive:

A mix would be appropriate, I think. Your factions line infantry, for example, should be able to be built anywhere. After all, linemen are linemen, they're supposed to be generic. Chuck 'em in a uniform, hand 'em a gun and send 'em into battle. Other units, yes, should be regional, like Finnish Jaegers, or Quantum Elephants :gring:

[Fisherking]

It would be nice to see different breeds of horses, although I doubt it's going to happen.

Once again, being more familiar with the Russians, I know that the average Russian war horse was smaller than the Western standard, but had much better endurance (Apparently Russian soldiers could out-march Western horses :winkg:)
Being able to pick out and supply different types of horses to different units (And, of course, different weapons), would be great. But far too complicated for the TW-style of game.



Yea, the slow Russian Horses got eaten by the infantry. That’s why they had endurance!

You aren’t fooling me you degenerate Russki! I know all the stuff you do with horses!:yes::thumbsdown:

So you want to recreate say Gray Horse Troop, & Black Horse Troop, and so on, huh?

:no:Lay off the fermented mare’s milk…or was it the mushroom laced ur** never mind!:shame:

Tell me, do the Russians make any kinds of cheese form horse milk?:inquisitive:


:clown:

[Sheogorath]

Is this the point where I'm supposed to make a Welsh joke? :tongueg:

I dont know about Russians, but the Cossacks had an extensively horse-based diet :P

[Sir Beane]

Is this the point where I'm supposed to make a Welsh joke? :tongueg:

I dont know about Russians, but the Cossacks had an extensively horse-based diet :P

Eatin' horses makes ya faster... possibly.

Speaking of food, anyone have any info on what the average European or Russian soldier ate while soldiering? Fresh horse every day might not be so bad, considering the alternatives. From what I remember an interview mentioned Coleslaw as a researchable tech that staves off scurvy and therefore raises morale, what other delicious dishes might we be able to acquire for our men?

[Sheogorath]

I dont know for sure, but I imagine it was fairly similar to a sailors diet unless they could 'obtain' items from towns or bring live animals with them. That would mean lots of salt meat and hard bread/biscuits. One can certainly see why it was difficult to stop looters :P

I do know that Napoleon's army was one of the first to get canned rations, although not on a large scale.

[Sir Beane]

I dont know for sure, but I imagine it was fairly similar to a sailors diet unless they could 'obtain' items from towns or bring live animals with them. That would mean lots of salt meat and hard bread/biscuits. One can certainly see why it was difficult to stop looters :P

I do know that Napoleon's army was one of the first to get canned rations, although not on a large scale.

Thinking about it, canned rations may make it in as a tech we can research. It might raise morale through better nutrition or something similar.

If only the pot noodle had been invented in the 18th century. It would have livened up the rather bland diet. :laugh4:

Thinking about it an army at the time would have greatly benefited from a lot of modern foods. Foil packaging and other methods of keeping food fresh are something we take for granted but might have saved a soldier from malnutrition and death while on the march.

I'm sure Napoleon would have loved French Fries :beam: (the Walkers brand salted potato snacks, not the sliced potato treat, although he probably would have liked those to)

I wish that the baggage train and supply lines were represented in game so that food supples were something we actually had to worry about. It seems that in Total War a soldier can find all he needs despite being miles away from home, in Russia, in Winter, in the middle of nowhere. Perhaps they learned to live on snow and mud?

Supply lines would add an extra layer of depth and strategy into the game. It would mean assaults would have to be carefully planned, supply centres set up, supply lines protected with sufficient military force.

And we would have the chance to try and cripple an enemy advance by cutting off supplies and starving them out.

I'm not sure the A.I could cope with it, but it would be a blast in multiplayer and a great way to stop Blitzers.

[Stinger123]

What we need to do is crossbreed Civilization and Total War, for Civilization: Total War.

But yes, that sort of thing would enable factions to be represented better than before. But poor implementation could hurt the game badly. Remember Imperial Glory? Ugh. :blankg:


...but I LOVE Imperial Glory, and would love to play it if it wasnt for the freaking dog whom ate the disc before we could get a computer capable of playing it (our computer was stuck in the Warcraft 2 era, when Warcraft 2 was thought to have awesome graphics). Now, i would love to go back and play it, now that I am old enough to KNOW what im doing. :wall: FREAKING DOG

back to subject.... It would be nice to see militias in their traditional use.... last call infantrymen.
Such as if a loyal province is attacked, then a certain amount of peasants/militia will join in glorius battle for their King, their country, their family, their lives......
Or if the enemy attacks a province that has been near the edge of rebellion, and supports the enemy that is attacking, they would join the enemy, for the greater good, but in the end... the fools will be but a pebble in the path of your War Machine. (AD/DC Black Ice pun completely intended)

[Sol Invictus]

I dont know for sure, but I imagine it was fairly similar to a sailors diet unless they could 'obtain' items from towns or bring live animals with them. That would mean lots of salt meat and hard bread/biscuits. One can certainly see why it was difficult to stop looters :P

I do know that Napoleon's army was one of the first to get canned rations, although not on a large scale.




That was Napoleon III though.

[Sir Beane]

back to subject.... It would be nice to see militias in their traditional use.... last call infantrymen.
Such as if a loyal province is attacked, then a certain amount of peasants/militia will join in glorius battle for their King, their country, their family, their lives......
Or if the enemy attacks a province that has been near the edge of rebellion, and supports the enemy that is attacking, they would join the enemy, for the greater good, but in the end... the fools will be but a pebble in the path of your War Machine. (AD/DC Black Ice pun completely intended)

Militia will pop up in any city not garrisoned by proper soldiers, but will not be able to be moved outside of the city they appear in. For the first time we will truly have a militia unit, and not just a soldier that happened to be trained in a city.

[Stinger123]

ahh, thanks, I wasnt quite sure.... now that thats clarified :)

[ConnMon]

I'm glad to hear that militia is actually a militia this time around. Just wondering, will militia vary from faction to faction? Like Italian Militia compared to Spear Militia? :2thumbsup:

[Sheogorath]

>Sir Beane

Probably not...it really wasn't a significant thing until some time after the games end. Too bad, though. If TW games had a proper logistics system it could have a major influence on the game. As it is...it would be hard to show the effects of such a technology.

>Sol

I'm pretty sure by Napoleon III's time canned food was fairly common. The Republic of France (the original one) offered a reward to whoever could come up with a process to quickly and efficiently can food. Nobody came up with one, but the French did get some food in cans, just not a whole lot, and eventually they idea went out of favor until the development of proper canning machinery.


As to militia, one would hope they would be different. As has been mentioned, different states had very different practices in regards to their militia. The Dutch, for example, had what was an almost professional army for a militia, very well trained and equipped by the standards of the day, while most states 'militia' were basically just guys who got a uniform (if they were lucky) a gun, and were thrown onto the field with a bare minimum of training. The Russian militia were lucky if they had uniforms at all, since all the state provided was a cap to mark the men as militia.

During the Napoleonic wars, the Russians got so desperate that they started handing out pikes (the Swedes did this as well, if I recall). This did lead to some interesting developments, like the 'shotgun' column (it has a proper name, but I cant remember it), where two columns of professional troops would march on either side of a group of pike-armed militia, channeling them to the enemy and supporting them (or shooting them in the back :P) once engaged.

[Fisherking]

=Sheogorath;2103552
As to militia, one would hope they would be different. As has been mentioned, different states had very different practices in regards to their militia. The Dutch, for example, had what was an almost professional army for a militia, very well trained and equipped by the standards of the day, while most states 'militia' were basically just guys who got a uniform (if they were lucky) a gun, and were thrown onto the field with a bare minimum of training. The Russian militia were lucky if they had uniforms at all, since all the state provided was a cap to mark the men as militia.

During the Napoleonic wars, the Russians got so desperate that they started handing out pikes (the Swedes did this as well, if I recall). This did lead to some interesting developments, like the 'shotgun' column (it has a proper name, but I cant remember it), where two columns of professional troops would march on either side of a group of pike-armed militia, channeling them to the enemy and supporting them (or shooting them in the back :P) once engaged.

I think the American Colonial Militia was in the same boat as the other bottom of the barrel types. If they had a uniform it was provided out of pocket by their leader. If they had a gun, they brought it. If they had a hat, it was an old one from home.

That is why most of the early militias were armed with rifles and not muskets. Later the Continual Congress provided some funds to give them muskets with bayonets.

After Valley Forge, they my have received some School of the Solider, but before that it is very doubtful that they did more than show up and fight. Given who they were up against it shows what shear tenacity they must have had. Especially when you consider how few battles they actually won.
I think the physiological shock of losing to them in those few major battles was what really won the war for the Americans. Briton was just not sending more money down that empty hole.

[Sol Invictus]

Sheogorath, yes, I did some searching and it does seem that canning was around during the Napoleonic Wars. I was certain that I had read several years ago that the armies of Napoleon III were the first to use canned food in the field.

[Oleander Ardens]

Milita should look scrambled. Here we have some impressions of how diverse the tyrolean milita looked.

http://www.general-solutions.at/landeszeitung/site-files/651/uploads/medium/tlmf_das_maedchen_von_spinges_lz.jpg

http://www.scharfschuetzen.at/images/hofer-nachbauer_html_m3e3936df.jpg

http://www.pension-alpenhof.it/assets/images/riesen6.jpg


http://www.scharfschuetzen.at/images/hofer-nachbauer_html_m38289b30.png

Markswoman (http://www.schuetzen.com/images/marketenderinnen/josephine01.jpg)

http://www.onlinekunst.de/frieden/egger/totentanz_anno_400.jpg

[Fisherking]

Since we are on such a broad topic, one of the things about cities that has always galled me is only being able to work on one improvement at a time. Size of the settlement plays a part but only working on a church for instance and not being able to improve a stable, school, or what ever else is a game convention that has always frustrated me a bit. This has been especially true when the building takes so many years to complete.

In real time whole castles were built in less time than it takes to complete some of these buildings.
Harlech Castle took only seven years from start to finish to build! And as building techniques improved so did the speed and strength in building. Except for truly monumental projects most should be finished in under a year or two and you should be allowed to start other projects in the mean time.

I know it has been designed so as to never run short of building projects and so on, but still…
It is only a small point in the end, but I would like to make more improvements than just the one, and have times not so unrealistic.

[Zoring]

Great ideas, particularily in regards to Iron and horses, made me think of a few one's of my own. It needs to be harder to maintain far flung colonies, for example, the upkeep idea is one good step for that, although the snowball effect of having many many provinces means the game gets easier and easier as your Empire swells whilst it should become a bit more unmanagble.

However for our forces in the fields, the nation description has this little tidbit

"One thing that Russia does have is endless space, and the lack of apparently defensible frontiers actually becomes a defence in itself. Invaders can be lured deep into the steppes, and left to the mercies of “General Winter” and Russia’s endless, empty lands."

Our field armies need to have difficulty staying together in far away countries, historically the greatest difficulties faced by Generals have been logistics, morale and disease. We need a system where the Armies need to be supplied.

Perhaps have armies very likely to splinter and disappear if without a good General, say depending on how good a General is the further you can take an Army away from your lands or capital, the unrest in the army should grow. In this way your captains will be good for police actions within your own lines but cant leave your borders. Whilst your 10 star general can go all the way to India.

Also, give us the ability to name Units and groups of units. It will give us a great sense of identity to be ordering around the '2nd Garde Infantarie Regiment' instead of every generic unit being 'Prussian Infantry'

[Noncommunist]

Perhaps have armies very likely to splinter and disappear if without a good General, say depending on how good a General is the further you can take an Army away from your lands or capital, the unrest in the army should grow. In this way your captains will be good for police actions within your own lines but cant leave your borders. Whilst your 10 star general can go all the way to India.

Vaguely like crusades in a way? Except that poor leadership rather than slow speed would be the reason for desertion.

[Sheogorath]

What I think would be particularly interesting would be a units seniority reflected in the quality of their equipment and style of dress. Rather than actually recruiting grenadiers and other elite units, they would be formed on the basis of combat experience. For instance, units with no chevrons would simply be generic linesmen, or even a step lower than that. As they gained experience, they would get nicer equipment, fancier uniforms, better artillery and so on. This could also include combat merits, such as flags, banners and various other honors.
Of course, you could also give those units those things yourself, but they would need to be paid for, rather than (perhaps) given for free or at a discount (reflecting officers purchasing the items themselves, rather than the state doing so).

Just a random idea.

One feature I would love to have would be the ability to customize uniforms. There was, historically, a great deal of variation between uniforms, even up to Napoleonic times. While most states generally maintained an overall 'theme' (Red for the British, green for the Russians, black/dark grey for Prussia), most units had distinctive colors. Pants with red stripes, different styles of headgear (The Pavlovsk Grenadiers, as I so often love to mention, where the only unit in the Russian army to retain their miter caps past the Napoleonic Wars. Some of them survived right up to the Revolution, seeing service in World War II, complete with holes from musketballs at Austerlitz)
This was especially reflected in cavalry uniforms, who quite often didn't follow the 'state' theme at all. The Russian Cossack Lifeguard, for instance, wore bright red jackets. Other units (in all armies) tended to wear distinct colors, I suppose in the spirit of chivalry and to make them more noticeable on the field.

This could even be extended to affect morale, as armies tended to adopt a style similar to whoever won the last war. Again, as an example, Prussian-style uniforms were popular prior to the Napoleonic Wars, whereas afterwards almost everybody in Europe except the Brits adopted a Russian style, most notably, the Prussians :gring:

The British seem to have been an exception to this. I guess they just like their big hats. And, of course, for whatever reason, the British have a long history of Russophobia. They never did seem to like the Russians after Ivan IV hit on Queen Elizabeth.

On the note of Cossacks, I do hope Russia doesn't get a generic 'Cossack' unit. There was far too much variation between the various hosts, Don Cossacks, the largest and generally most organized, went so far as to organize foot units (generally light infantry) and had their own artillery and (sort of) uniforms. More Easterly cossacks dressed in styles of Central Asia, and the Caucasian Cossacks wore Turkish styles, complete with pointy shoes and scimitars. Naturally, some of these would be available to the Ottoman faction as well.

[Zoring]

Neocommist, thats about it, kind of a system like that, with your units having a 'morale/supply' rating, which is affected primarily by the Generals star rating, but also having positives and negatives, if you are in swampy areas troops will get sick and desert/perish if you are in the middle of Russia in the Winter you get a huge hit. Furhter you get from your capital the worse it gets, visit cities with brothels/pubs you get a bonus, say you have to encamp your troops over the winter in hostile areas. But it has to have an element of randomness otehrwise people can mathematically calculate how far you can go etc which is never fun.

Also Sheo, thats a pretty good idea, you have your line infantry serving up to say 1 silver, you can march them back to town and upgrade them to veterens. Some units should be recruited as they are, units like Cavalry, Grenadiers (being selected from the best and strongest men in a regiment) having to be trained for longer or needing more resoruces/horses.

Also in regards to colours of nations, i woulden't mind unified uniforms as long as the colours are NOT fluro. Ick. No more Byzantium fluro purple please.

[Sheogorath]

Also Sheo, thats a pretty good idea, you have your line infantry serving up to say 1 silver, you can march them back to town and upgrade them to veterens. Some units should be recruited as they are, units like Cavalry, Grenadiers (being selected from the best and strongest men in a regiment) having to be trained for longer or needing more resoruces/horses.

More or less. However, many grenadier companies were created for exemplary duty (in the 18th century, when they stopped being a distinct unit and essentially became elite infantry), well performing regiments got the best men and equipment, along with fancy titles and hats :P


Also in regards to colours of nations, i woulden't mind unified uniforms as long as the colours are NOT fluro. Ick. No more Byzantium fluro purple please.

Sadly, some nations DID have fluorescent colored uniforms. Or close to it :tongueg:

[Polemists]

Militarily

I'd like to see lockable gates on Forts.

I always thought it was silly in RTW (Forget if MTW2 did this) where you'd hold off a army outside your gates, then suddenly 5-10 guys are retreating, gates open and enemy follows them in.

Locking your men outside the fort..cruel? Maybe...Valid tactic? Absoutely.

I suppose with canons and ranged weapons this becomes a non exsistent issue. Still just a thought.





I'd like to see the general not wave a sword on a horse...to late I know. I just mean i'd be nice to see him look over a battle map or just point or something. I know he still does the wave sword charge thing judging by videos.


Civicly:

I would like to see printing presses. It is that time. I don't just mean Printing Press +2 to your people's idealism. I mean actual presses, it dosn't have to have a article each season but i'd be nice if you could use them for maybe mass publicity, elections, or smearing another faction.

For instance, if your people get war weary you can bribe the press to to show nation A had it coming, etc, etc