The Official Unofficial Idears and Madness Thread

[antisocialmunky]

The purpose of this thread is to act as a single repository for EBII ideas. We don't have one so I thought we should have one. So sue me.

Rules:
1) Factions belong in the Faction Thread
2) If you can help it, don't post stuff that the EB team has already refused to put in their mod. I'm looking at you Camels and Lorica Segmentata.
3) If at all possible, make your ideas reasonably implementable in the MIITW engine. We're not going to get miracle diplomacy or better AI.

With that said, I will set this thread off:

Official Roman Allied Legions
Just like the mini-mod. It would be nice to have a generic Italic Infantry unit like XGM in addition to the Italic specials to represent the Italian allies. The EBI system makes Italian units a rare sight.

Militia Units
It would be nifty if we could use the free unit slots for non-militia units only. That way we can represent the raising of farmers and others to be a drain on the economy. There are many ways to handle it including the current high upkeep methods but we haven't talked too much about free upkeep.

Big Cities = Big Armies
It would be nice if we could modify the unit pool regeneration rates so that larger cities have untis regenerate faster

Hellenized Thrakes and Kelts
If you're using the culture slots as intended, we could use a Kingdoms: Britain method to make it possible to slowly expand the AOR of Hellenized Thracian units and the AOR of celto-hellenic hoplites around Massila. Hopefully we can make cultural exchanges a slow process.

Pretenders
We need people to raise armies and try and claim the throne in the long line of eastern shenanigans.

Perm Fort Towns
Permanent forts could be used to represent smaller cities that are left out

Career Parths
Currently the Roman Job System is very hard to manipulate. It would be nice if the player had some sort of method for controlling jobs like some other mods

Social Wars
I never liked the fact that EB simulates the changes in Roman military structure but not the social changes. The presence of the Italian allies should not be ignored. It would be neat to simulate the Social Wars shortly after the Marian Reforms or if steps aren't taken to prevent it.

DOTS Multi-Faction method for the KH
Use the methods from DOTS that lets them have factions within factions to simulate who's incharge the the league.

Hellenic Military Settlements
It would be a good idea to decentralize some of the unit recruitment buildings. For example, Klerouchoi Phalangitai could be recruited by granting land to Hellenic Military Settlers. Hellenic Migration -> Kleros -> More Kleros etc. If you're using culture, you could make the Hellenic Migration spread Hellenic culture at the cost of upsetting the locals. After a certain amount of culture is acrued, you can build a Kleros. Etc.

[oudysseos]

Dammit, you beat me to the DOTS multi-faction for the KH thingy. I've been planning a monster essay on the KH. Jinx.

Touch my monkey. Feel him. Make him yours.

Good idea for a thread, though you'd really have to go out and actively collate all the ideas from everyone else's threads to make it work.

[antisocialmunky]

I was hopign that people would just come and dump thier ideas. You should still post your essay, I'm sure highly detailed ideas would be the most helpful.

[Tellos Athenaios]

I'd've sworn I'd seen this before:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=109555&highlight=Ideas+Suggestions

But, meh. Anyways some very interesting ideas here. :yes:

[ziegenpeter]

I mentioned this already somwhere else but here we go again... ;-)

+ Other Skins for Spies, Agents & Diplo (and if they will be used the priests an merchants Of course)*
They still look a bit fantasy- and vanilla-like.
+ Capitals Start almost fully developped. AFAIK Most of the factions were actually able to recruit Elite troops at 272 BC, or did Alex conquer persia with peasants?
+ The ringing bells when the message of a marriage celebration appears. Please switch them off or replace them

[Subotan]

No more enormous trees.

[lobf]

I've been kicking around a few ideas, but I sure won't want to present them alongside a thousand other ones where it will be lost/ignored.

In other words, I don't like this idea at all.

[antisocialmunky]

No one's forcing your to. At the end of the day, I wouldn't mind looking through this and linking the best ideas to the OP.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Cue deja vu of Roman fan boy saying something stupid, Abou flipping out, lobf saying something funny/sarcastic and Foot locking the thread.

Awww, Lobf already said something....

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

I remember a movie where a Russian General says: "advisors, advisors! There are always plenty of advisors! But fighting men, these are a tough find."

Sorry couldn't resist. I hope that the EB team isn't understaffed and it has been long since I've seen a team Celtic expert here; Ranika and Psycho apparently left.

[antisocialmunky]

Does anyone else thing that character description should include a 'average' attribute? Its nice that FMs either end up pretty good or hilariously perverted, but I wouldn't mind if FMs ended up more balanced in the end.

Also, it would be fun to make untimely deaths from drinking or suicide because no one loves him. Also some traits involving multiple FMs interacting in a single settlement would be fun. For example, if one person was seditious, he might become a 'Ring Leader in a Conspiricy' if another general is in the settlement is also disloyal. That general I guess would get 'Co-Conspiritor. If you move those guys into settlements with other disloyal people, the conspiricy spreads. Other amusing things would be adulterors sleeping with another character's wife and the possiblity of the child coming out with 'Illegitimate' and with a different ethniticity. Also people like Mishellens when paired with Hellens either start liking them more or they get into a fight or something.

Just some more RP funs. :-D

[ziegenpeter]

SInce EB II will be based on M2TW I'd like to suggest that diplomats can negociate more than once a turn. It's posible in RTW and in M2Tw it's a pita.

[antisocialmunky]

Double Post... but I have ideas!

This is mostly a KH one to make them more detailed:

Jobs

Archons of Athens
I'm not sure if the Athenian system was still the same at this point but it would be fun to give Athenians Archon positions. Much like the Roman job line, Every year, up to three random(as there are other citizens off screen) Athenians are choosen and appointed to the position of the various Archons. After the year runs out, they become members of the Areopagus. I'm not sure what sorts of bonuses besides those to law since they can get tried for corruption and obviously some influence.

Kings of Sparta
Currently there is no representation of who the kings of Sparta are. There should be two kings, on of the Agiad and Eurypontid dynasties. I think what can be done is to seed the Spartiates placed at the begining of the game with a trait that's passed from father to son. That way adopted Spartans don't get it unless they are adopted by one of the lines. Also I guess it would be limited only to Spartiates to avoid weirdness unless you want to make a trait for people who are adopted by Spartans line. If the king is killed, the oldest one with the correct dynastic trait becomes king. If one of the lines ends, then the king is replaced by one in the other line. If both end, the oldest Spartiates is appointed regent if there are sons or Tyrant/King of Sparta in the manner of Nabis if both dynasties are dead. That or it becomes a republic... but what fun would that be? Each king should also get an Ephor to make sure he's not goofing off like what historically happened. You could also have a trait like 'Bribed the Ephors' for more RPing fun.

Reforms

Military Reforms
Southern Greece was in a state of technological flux during this period. Some groups like the Achaean League are recorded as using Thureophoroi and while others like Sparta were using less modern methods. Later, others adopted the Macedonian way of fighting. I think that the best way to represent this would be character driven recruitment like Stainless Steel. Each character gets one of three traits: Conservative, Open Minded, and Innovative. Settlements without characters can recruit anything.

Spartans and Cretans are more likely to be Conservative. Settlements with Conservative Characters receive a boost to unit generation rates for Classical Hoplites and a penalty to recruitment of Thureophoroi and Thorakites.

Open Minded characters can come from anywhere. Settlements with Open Minded Characters receive a boost to unit generation rates for Thureophoroi and Thorakites and a penalty to recruitment of Classical Hoplites.

Innovative Characters are rare and tend to come from places with Academia. They can't recruit Classical Hoplites. They get recruitment bonuses to Thorakites, Thureophoroi, and Pikemen. If an Innovative person becomes the leader of the league, he has military connections, is a veteran, and it is after a certain date/requirement. You can get the Pike Reform.

Spartan Land Reforms
As many of you know, the decline of Sparta was related to the consolidation of land leading to a continual decrease in Spartiates. Several Spartan kings tried to redistribute the land in the 3rd Century to expand the body of loyal citizens and restore Sparta to its former glodry. The most notably of these Kings were Agis IV and Cleomenes III. Both sought to reform Sparta back to its roots. Agis IV was killed by the Ephors and Cleomenes III was defeated by the Achaeans and exiled to Egypt.

So I propose this: give Sparta a reform to increase the number of Spartiates that can be recruited to show a resurgent Sparta. The requirements would be that you have a Spartan King that's Sharp/Charismatic/Vigorous, Unselfish, Drillmaster(something similar), and Completed(probably the Did well version) Agoge. At some point when this is all fulfilled, he'll get a trait called 'Desires Reform' which informs the player to send him back to Sparta. A special building in Sparta becomes buildable called 'Land Redistribution.' It is expensive and causes lots of unrest. It is required that the king stay there or the building is damaged every turn/destroyed. If the king leaves, he becomes 'King in Exile' and someone else from his line becomes king. If he returns to Sparta lots of unhappiness. Next, the player gets to build a new barracks in Sparta. This building cancels out the land redistribution's public order penalty and increases the maximium amount and generation rate of Spartan Hoplites. This also disables the damage land reform script.

Other

Home Cities and Colonies
Using the guild system, a level 3 guild is placed in each of the major city states in Greece. Whenever you build a Hellenic colony type government, each turn you are offered a random guild of the same type as one of the level 3's you control in that city(costs a little bit). The message should read something like '[City] wishes to send colonists to [X].'

These guilds give bonuses associated with each city and is a way of showing the imperial ambitions of the parent city. The level threes can be demolished and rebuilt else where as well to show cities in exile etc.


Other Regional Things
Spartans over the age of 60 become Gerousia. Strategos and Polemarchos for various Greek cities should be titles. More ethniticities such as Argives, Boetians, and Acheans would be nice too.

[General Appo]

Some really nice ideas there.

[Subotan]

Could you also have a coup occurring in the "democratic" factions (KH, Aedui, Romani, Qarthadast) where a leader takes control of the state and declares himself King/Dictator? He would have to be S/C/V, Have +5 Influence, be "Ambitious"/Disloyal, and popular with the army.

In response to the theft of their liberties, you could have unrest occurring in cities (Presumably using a marker), with the less influential he is, the more the unrest, with 10 negating the unrest altogether. In the city he declares himself to be King, and the surrounding regions, have no unrest (The Autocratic, rebellious region). However, you could have the highest unrest in one particular city (To represent the democratic capital), second highest in surrounding area with an overall penalty of 5/10% for the areas outside the "Autocratic" region of the the Empire. Obviously, to quell such an uprising, you would need large amounts of troops deployed inside your borders, to represent a Civil War.

The unrest would decrease over time (Maybe using a random number generator to determine the progress of the war in each region?), but I'm sure other things could be taken into consideration, such as the death of the leader before the coup was finished (As in Caesar), his son could choose to declare himself King, individual family members having different loyalties to the different factions (Generating unrest FM if placed in a city who's loyalties lie differently), rival FMs declaring themselves leader, increased chance of death for family members who are particularly active in the rebellion/crushing it, a democratic version for autocratic factions...We could go nuts!

[General Appo]

Pretty nice idea that too, but I don't know about the "10 Influence = 0 Unrest", seeing as almost anyone who is anything in EB has 10 influence. Seriously, in all of my Romani games, any guy born S/C/V has gotten 10 influence at the very least before their fifties.
Heck, before I got Konny's trait mod some lucky Patricians were born with 6-7 Influence.

[Subotan]

Kk, I've never played Romani, so I had no idea how likely that was. I think that if the idea was to be implemented, a smaller scale version of the influence-negating-unrest plan would have to be included, for historical accuracy. I'll add some more ideas to the thing as a whole later.

[theoldbelgian]

re-emergent factions (not the same as emerging wich aren't going to be in eb)
the idea is this
if a faction is destroyed and their capital rebels that that faction re-emerges in the capital
for some factions there could be more city's ( like the koinon hellenon)
don't know if this is possible butt it would be nice :D

[Mediolanicus]

re-emergent factions (not the same as emerging wich aren't going to be in eb)
the idea is this
if a faction is destroyed and their capital rebels that that faction re-emerges in the capital
for some factions there could be more city's ( like the koinon hellenon)
don't know if this is possible butt it would be nice :D

Agreed. This is a must have. Just like in good old MTW.

(En ik kan het mij niet laten want ik zie je steeds hetzelfde foutje maken. but = maar; butt = kont. Een kleinigheid, maar toch... ~;))

[antisocialmunky]

There is a way to do it using horde and spawning armies. Perhaps if you spawned an army and then move it off map(Britainia Campaign). This would only keep the faction in play so something could rebel to it later. You could probably do a lot of scripting to make it more polished.

[Subotan]

My Civil War Post

Do we have Loyalty in MTW2, because if so, we could have Generals switching to Eleutheroi, to replicate a civil war...

[antisocialmunky]

Hey, here's an idea: Dowries. The hotter your daughter is, the more money you get from suitors.

We could have daughter traits tagged onto the fathers to do it. ++Influence for good daughter. Or his daughter becomes a whore and --traits. We would have to clone the traits up to 4 times for the maximium amount of daughters. :laugh4:

[Megas Methuselah]

Hey, here's an idea: Dowries. The hotter your daughter is, the more money you get from suitors.

Dowries work the other way around. The daughter's father/guardian pays the money, not receives. Thus, marrying off your daughter would be giving away money, power, and/or land.

[gamegeek2]

Well, princesses would make marriage alliances/peace much easier...

[antisocialmunky]

Dowries work the other way around. The daughter's father/guardian pays the money, not receives. Thus, marrying off your daughter would be giving away money, power, and/or land.

I meant bride price which was practiced in various parts where EB covers.

[antisocialmunky]

... Because I looked up the definition after you mentioned it and I was wrong and corrected myself afterwards. Sadly I can't time travel back and correct the original post. :inquisitive:

I'm not sure what warrants that hostile tone so I'll just leave it at that.

[HayGuy]

Notice the complete lack of interest with the actual idea.

I don't know about the whole bride price thing. I thought I read somewhere that the EB devs aren't going to use princesses at all due to general stealing or something.

Personally I think they should be included and should be able to do a variety of tasks not just diplomacy. I'd love to be able to use my princesses as assassin's for example...at least in Medieval times that could be feasible not sure about the ancient day.

[antisocialmunky]

Well, this is the Ideas and Madness thread. Shouldn't be surprised at cool receptions for some ideas.

Culture Markers
If EB's using culture, you guys should have default culture producing buildings for each area that produce culture at the begining. That way, a faction would have to actively try and counter the native culture rather than rely on drift from neighboring areas. Also, if a faction pulls out of an area, that area can slowly revert back to its default culture standing. Also, culture markers might have several levels and multiple culture markers can exist in one place. This would also help give players a more intuitive way of deciding how to develop areas.

I don't like having to look at the Recruitment Viewer or remember by heart.

Roman Province Making
Can we have a progressive way of expanding Roman borders in the Marian Reform to show the gradual transition from newly conquered city to a Roman province. It could be tied to culture too with each step requiring a minimum roman culture level. Perhaps the process would go: Roads, Improved Roads(Improve Communication, Movement), Garrison(Control People), Settle Veterans(Expand Population), Level 1 Factional Barracks(Limited to Level 1, only Auxilia is recruited), Replace Temples(Roman Gods), Academia(Roman Education). This would open up the ability to build 'Roman Province' and open up the rest of the barracks. and allow someone to govern the area.

[chairman]

If you are going to use culture for Roman expansion, you might as well allow other factions to use it as well. Factions that come to mind are Hellenic and Hellenistic factions, Celts and Germans, and Hayasdan and Parthia. I know that this includes just about every faction, but it would allow for more natural reforms than are instituted currently.

Anyway, I very much like the idea that you put forward about Roman provinces, ASM.

Chairman

[antisocialmunky]

IHMO, each faction needs to have its own way of expanding that's historically correct. I gave some ideas for Successors and Rome because that's the limit of my knowledge. The Parthian, Saka, and Hai expansions from EBI wouldn't be hard to port and smooth out to a MIITW. I have no idea how other factions would work though. This is the list I can think of:

Greek Successors: Making Satraps and Military Colonization of Greeks, Galatians, and others.
Parthian, Saka, and Steppe: Nomadic population migrates and adopts settled ways, Making Satraps/Client Rulers.
Greek Cities: Parent city sending out colonists.
Hai: Making Satraps
Rome: Systematic Romanization of the Culture, Settling Veterans, Intermarriage, Expelling Local Populations, etc.
Celtic/Germans/Other/'Barbarian': Client Rulers, Settling, and Intermarriage, Expelling Local Populations.

I dunno though. You'd have to do alot of work to get accurate representations of this. Also certain factions have an easier way of expanding than others.

[HayGuy]

One thing that I liked in Kingdoms but I felt was also kinda skimpy was the culture ratings in Kingdom Britannia. I liked the idea that the rating could allow recruitment of foreign units but it seemed to move way too fast.

Is this feature being used for EB? If so, do you guys have a way to perhaps cap the culture of an "invading" force? Such as in an expansion region say the Romans could only increase the culture rating to 35% which could allow them to get levy units but still allow them access to the native units (i.e. gallic warbands or what have you).

[ULC]

Actually, it would technically be fine as is. One could have a building line for "non or partially" your current factions culture, and one for your factions culture. The rate at which cultural exchange is worked could be changed to become much slower, and units such as "priests" (renamed obviously, or maybe not so obviously) along with cultural buildings such as academies, places of worship, recreation centers and government buildings could also build upon increasing the rate of cultural change.

This could allow fluctuating centers of recruitment, and allow an almost "cultural" victory - your literally strangle your opponents development because your very culture is dominate in their homelands. That may be a bit unbalanced, but it's a tactic that would bring a new level to EB.

[ziegenpeter]

Maybe Priests=Settlers for EB?

[Mediolanicus]

I thought the EB team said they wouldn't use priest because they convert far to quickly. You can change religion to culture, but AFAIK you can't mod the speed at which they convert a region.

[antisocialmunky]

I was thinking about making those guys game spawned historians or something like that had traits that told you where to move them so they can finish their great works. Then the player is rewarded by a summary of the work after its finished. Afterwards, he generates culture with his work and you can move him around to places to generate your faction's culture.

Or something like Great People rather than making them ancillaries. Each one would be unique and be spawned if a player owns the city they were born in.(Rebels don't count).

[Subotan]

A better idea would be to have random artists/engineers/historians spawn randomly, with random names (As EB is about making history, not remaking it) from cities (Obviously with like 0.01% chance), with more cultured and developed cities having more chance of spawnage.

[antisocialmunky]

We could keep the ones that were born already at the start of EB though.

[Subotan]

Yes, ofc.

[Puupertti Ruma]

Sorry to mess your considerations of cultures use in EBII, but EB team has stated explicitly that the MTW2 Religion will not represent religion nor culture, but something else. This is most probably because there are only limited number of religion slots (the number which I really don't remember now, but it is a lot less than the "needed" 30 or so) and some hardcoded limits in the spreading of religion.

[antisocialmunky]

Well that's too bad :-\ Oh well. I'm sure it'll end up being equally good. I wonder if its the Government Type idea that was suggested way back when. Each culture slot is a government type etc.

[HayGuy]

Thats the sort of use I am talking about. Having a certain culture rating in a province would entitle you to build a government type and associated buildings/units. Once you get out into the Alliances Available types your culture gets capped at the amount that allows you to only build type 3 or type 4.

Probably this is more cumbersome than the current system, I have no clue because I am not a programmer.

[antisocialmunky]

No, the one I'm refering to was brought up a long time ago. Each culture slot refers to a government type like 'Republic,' 'Democracy,' 'Autocracy,' 'Autonomy,' etc. It doesn't relate to faction culture at all.

[Majd il-Romani]

stratmap and General (prebattle) Speech in original language
-different armies march differently and make different sounds when marching (like chainmail will jingle, barefooted soldiers will occasionally say ouch cause they stepped on something, etc)
-cheaper levies
-language traits for agents and FM's so you can get more info on the language your faction speaks, and they can learn more languages too
-something that gives the info about a city and its outlying region, maybe you get a message that tells about it once youve conquered it
-building cards have their own artwork on them instead of using the Vanilla M2 ones
-WAY BETTER PIKE UNITS
-more badass killing animations like in M2

ill post more as I play kingdoms

[theoldbelgian]

stratmap and General (prebattle) Speech in original language
-different armies march differently and make different sounds when marching (like chainmail will jingle, barefooted soldiers will occasionally say ouch cause they stepped on something, etc)
-cheaper levies
-language traits for agents and FM's so you can get more info on the language your faction speaks, and they can learn more languages too
-something that gives the info about a city and its outlying region, maybe you get a message that tells about it once youve conquered it
-building cards have their own artwork on them instead of using the Vanilla M2 ones
-WAY BETTER PIKE UNITS
-more badass killing animations like in M2

ill post more as I play kingdoms

1) someone of the team said that if it was possible they would have this in eb2 (with subtitles or another way to make clear what they are saying)
2) I heard this idea somewhere before, personally it would be cool but only as latest addition
3)that could be cool for all agents cause now they only have generic traits nothing to really role-play with ,maybe a tie can be made with the culture slot for example a diplo learned Greek + influence against all Greeks ad there could be several levels in it too (speaks broken Greek, fluent Greek, like he was born there, etc) for spies and assassins the same thing, someone who doesn't speak the language will be less trusted than someone who speaks the language
butt i can't really see when generals would need it
4) eb1 already had it with some city's, for example conquer Rome with the epeirotes and your general gets a trait which gives an overall nice description of Rome by one ancient historian butt not all have it and you need a general for it and once the general dies the description is gone
butt seeing it is in eb1, i don't see a reason not to include it in eb2
one word on this, if it is possible i want more of them hell if no one wants to do it, i want to do it
i was absolutely stunned when in my first epeirote campaign i say this when i got capua

5) i think that they will do this but maybe in all later release we will see what time brings
6) i don't think anyone but the sweboz had pike units and they where pretty good if you mean the kingdoms pike units that was a problem with the animation there are mods that fix this problem there is a thread open in the eb2 forum that gives one of them
7) the eb team has said that if it can be modded they will putt it in

now my suggestion of the week
change the buildings from medieval to ancient
i followed the threat of historic city's until long after it died and i still like it

[Lucio Domicio Aureliano]

re-emergent factions (not the same as emerging wich aren't going to be in eb)
the idea is this
if a faction is destroyed and their capital rebels that that faction re-emerges in the capital
for some factions there could be more city's ( like the koinon hellenon)
don't know if this is possible butt it would be nice :D

i think it´s possible to do this since they´ll implement re-emergent factions in the mod (Dominion of the sword).

[lenin96]

6) i don't think anyone but the sweboz had pike units and they where pretty good if you mean the kingdoms pike units that was a problem with the animation there are mods that fix this problem there is a thread open in the eb2 forum that gives one of them

Makedonia, Epeiros, Ptolamaioi, Arche Seleukeia and Pontos get pikes.

[theoldbelgian]

are sarissas the same as pikes ? i don't know actually

in that case sorry for the misinformation

[antisocialmunky]

Yes. Pretty much a 16 foot (5 meterish) long stick with two pointy ends on it. The second being used to balance the weapon, brace it into the ground, and be used incase the front one gets chopped off.

[satalexton]

how do you turn that thing around if the tip got chopped off? =/

[antisocialmunky]

Not sure.

Important People

Important people replace priests/imams/etc. They are produced at predetermined important cities for a particular faction. They represent other important people in your faction that are not generals. They represent governors, scholars, civil servants, and others. Generally people who are directed by/apart of the state or are sponsored by the state could be represented by these people. Each faction should also have the maximum amount of these guys capped.

For example:
The Romanoi - Rome could spawn civil servants that serve as an alternative for military governors. They have backgrounds like 'former senator,' 'current senator,' 'career politician,' etc and develop similarly to normal FMs. Depending on the jobs they get they can set up Proconsulships and other things to facilitate governing of regions.

The KH - Athens could have scholars and philosophers that go to cities and improve law/order/happiness depending on their school of thought.

The Traditional Barbarians - Like in another post, they could represent community leaders and things like that. Much like Roman civil servants, they can serve as alternatives to administration. They can rise through the ranks as well and if they are influential enough can do migrations(Jihads) if circumstances are right(over population etc).

This is just a thought. Of course it might not work out depending on how religion/culture is handled, but I hope that it'll prompt discussion on how to use these agents.

[lenin96]

Not sure.

Important People
For example:
The Romanoi - Rome could spawn civil servants that serve as an alternative for military governors. They have backgrounds like 'former senator,' 'current senator,' 'career politician,' etc and develop similarly to normal FMs. Depending on the jobs they get they can set up Proconsulships and other things to facilitate governing of regions.

Thats a great idea and would work very well with the S.P.Q.R and Koinon Hellenon:yes:, but is it possible to have agents that aren't generals or FMs become governor?