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antisocialmunky
01-13-2009, 01:13
:laugh4:

Amusing... but I wonder what the EB regular think of this little gem I found on The Escapist forums:



Books have been based on it, modern people model themselves on it, the modern world was shaped by it, and experts claim to know everything about it - but just how plausible is it that the things we know about ancient Rome are accurate, and sooth?

My argument here is centered around one thing: What is a factual primary source, and how many factual primary sources are there, from the time of ancient Rome?

What is a factual primary source?
A primary contains first hand testimony of an event. The defining charcteristic of a primary source is that it is un biased, un edited and directly taken from events. Now, a factual primary source is a bit different - while your normal primary source is considered to be anything taken from someone who directly saw the event, a factual primary source must be something that had no chance of becoming bias. A picture or audio file is a primary source, but it wouldn't do to consider it fact as pictures and audio files can be doctored.

Similarly, while the historical source of Tassitus is considered a leading peice of information from ancient times, it is not a primary source, and definatly not a factual primary source, as honestly Tassitus could have put whatever he had wanted to put into his histories, with relative ease.

To me, the only thing that would constitue a factual primary source from ancient Roman times would be in the form of genetic (bloody hard because if you're going to trace back in time, then you need to know where to start tracing) or forensic proof (i.e. the absence of any blunt/sharp trauma on the bones of someone genetically proven to be [by means as yet unknown] cleopatra would mean that is it feasible that she was poinsoned/poisoned herself)

Just how many Factual Primary Sources (FPSs) exist today from the time of ancient Rome?

In summing up the first section of this little talk, an FPS is something that could not, at any point, have been rendered bias. Knife wounds can be faked; but not when such things as carbon dating can narrow down the time at which said wounds were inflicted - thus forensic investigation is the ultimate source of FPSs.

After establishing what is and isn't establishable fact; it just occures to me: What in the entire lexicon of ancient Roman information is an FPS?

I can think of one: The eruption of Mt. Vesuvius. I can think of another: The existence of a city on the tiber, which is commonly accepted as having been called Rome. I can think of one more: That the Roman Empire collapsed at some point, triggering the 'dark ages' as a result of the collapse of intercontinental trade and communication.

What other direct FPSs exist? I have established that forensics is the wellspring of FPSs, and as a result of that, carbon dating might be able to - and probably already has - accuratly age 'Hadrian's Wall'; proving it's time of construction. Similarly; studies of marks in armour might suggest the nature of opposing forces during certain battles in certain locations.

By implication, to what extent is classical education - something based on the study of sources made by people like Tassituc and Cicero - a work of fact as opposed to a work of fiction? Now, I don't want to detract from Cambridge and Oxford students, and I don't want to insult my Grandmother (holder of a degree in Classics, among other degrees) - but their knowlege is like to that of a person who studies fictional, or at least biased literature than a person who studies factual 'history' (almost impossible to be factual).

There is no apparent FPS that proves the existence of Julius Caesar any more than there is an FPS that proves the existence of Hercules. It is all heresay. (I say this with tongue in cheek, as there might easily be some evidence somewhere; I haven't gone through the books before writing this article, but I will not accept any work of historian as an FPS)

That said, it does not detract from the power of these historical figures - true or false, Julius Caesar's legacy reaches across the ages and touches many people even today.

That's my peice; thanks for your time.


http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.83458

Olaf Blackeyes
01-13-2009, 01:45
/tinfoilz anyone??

Maeran
01-13-2009, 01:59
Do Caesar's own writings count as a First Person Shooter, er, I mean Factual Primary Source? Or Cicero's letters?


I'll grant that by the author's own admission, he hasn't done any research and won't accept anyone else's (not 'FPS'). He seems to be obsessed with finding some unbiased account written down as it happened.

When has that ever happened? It is a historian's task to weigh the evidence, such as we have, usually knowing full well that there is a bias.. Something this chap fails to appreciate.

Actually, I've thought of an unbiased source. Accounts ledgers for something boring and unpolitical, like a 13th century priory's food bills.

desert
01-13-2009, 02:17
Records from his stint as dictator of Rome?

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
01-13-2009, 02:36
No such thing as an FPS as he defines it, histiography 1.

History is literature, not fact. So we muddel through as best we can and try not to go crazy. This is part of why I focus on philosophy and theology myself.

Cyclops
01-13-2009, 02:44
Does this guy refuse to read the menu in a restaurant unless its been written (in gravy) by the chef that day?





...Tassitus...



Clearly this kid refuses to even look at the evidence.

Its definitely worth having a GHL at the standards of proof you require to have faith in the world around you and the stories you've been told.

There is a lot of crap paraded as 100% truth, genocides are denied, heritages claimed, and it has a dollar value and people get hurt because of it. Good on him for having a bit of doubt.

Setting a really stringent standard of proof is intellectually paralysing.





That the Roman Empire collapsed at some point, triggering the 'dark ages' as a result of the collapse of intercontinental trade and communication.


He found the skeleton of the Roman Empire and dated it?:inquisitive:

Tellos Athenaios
01-13-2009, 05:17
And assumes you can date the carbon traces of what once was a 'living Hadrian's Wall'. In short: bells but lacking further knowledge on the location of that other item...