about the pike units in M2

[Majd il-Romani]

yeah so I got Kingdoms for christmas and Ive gotta say its pretty durned fun, I dont mind the gross historical inaccuracy at all, but one thing bugs me more than anything: the ineffectivness (actually, more like the crappiness) of the pike units in M2. :wall: They are HORRIBLE! They dont do anything with their pikes, they kinda hold them out and dont even attempt to kill the enemy until they get close enough for the pikemen to use their shortswords. Is the EB team gonna fix this?

[Novellus]

I believe they already have:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGff-muPIis

Of course, I'm sure they'll still be polishing up the animations, but it is much better than the M2TW "phalanx".

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Part of M2TW's pike problem is the animation, which EBII has/will remake.
Try out "Broken Crescent" and see what they did with the pike formation. They completely reworked it.

[russia almighty]

People early early on in M2TW history did stuff that made Pikemen useful.


Edit, that was good for the medieval period, not the classical period.

[Megas Methuselah]

Personally, I just took out the secondary weapon. The pike units are now somewhat... OP'd.

[russia almighty]

I've seen that done. They are very scary then.

BC had the pike be the secondary weapon. Even with their pathetic total defense of 1, the ERE pikemen will wreck your shit if you attack from the front.

[antisocialmunky]

Magonels fix that.... Mangonels fixed everything in Kingdoms. EVERYTHING.

[LordCurlyton]

Yeah the M2TW artillery would fix anything. But Elephant cannons fix things more:laugh4:.

[antisocialmunky]

Rocket Artillery > Elephanzers.

[Smeel]

The last thing I did before uninstalling M2tw+Kingdoms, I made a couple of Pikemen only battles to see how the AI handled them(I was a EB addict even then). I was acutally pretty surprised, even without customized Formation files, the pikemen advanced, keeping a straight line most of the time. And when engaging, they didn't suffer the "hey lets point sideways when we fight" phalanx bug in RTW. I Can't wait playing the successors in EB2 :juggle2:

[antisocialmunky]

Well, Pikemen without secondaries are ridiculous. The Swiss Pikemen from Stainless Steel are just insane and mow down people worse than RTW Phalanxes.

[russia almighty]

Aren't pikemen in SS super vulnerable to missile fire though?


Like, if a group of longbow men look at them wrong, they all drop dead?

[gamegeek2]

Historically, the Swiss were extremely effective pikemen who rarely lost a battle from the front in a pitched battle. They were, however, vulnerable to missiles. They would be able to loosen their formation and tighten it quickly, so the charge that would follow the missiles would be able to be stopped.

[Megas Methuselah]

They're very lucky they didn't have to face up against massed English longbowmen. What a shame, the slaughter would have been amusing to read.

[HayGuy]

Dude switzerland would be an awesome faction to play.

[Macilrille]

It would indeed. The Spanish Tercios at Ravenna also showed what effective infantry with short weapons could do to Pike. It was sort of Paper-stone-scissors effect. Heavy inf with short weapons got beaten by cavalry, cavalry got beat by Pike, Pike got beat by Heavy inf with short weapons...

We have the same effect in Re-enactment BTW.

[antisocialmunky]

It would indeed. The Spanish Tercios at Ravenna also showed what effective infantry with short weapons could do to Pike. It was sort of Paper-stone-scissors effect. Heavy inf with short weapons got beaten by cavalry, cavalry got beat by Pike, Pike got beat by Heavy inf with short weapons...

We have the same effect in Re-enactment BTW.

But artillery beat everything in that fight. :inquisitive:

[Macilrille]

Yes, so does my Diemaco C7, but realistically armies did not carry trebucthets around assembled and ready to shoot, nor was historical artillery effective enough to be decisive in any battles before The Italian Wars (if I remember correctly), though Charles the Bold did carry around a large artillery train, fat lot of good it did him as the Swiss came from another direction and wiped the floor with his army.

So yes arty is very (and unrealistically so) effective in battles, I have used it myself to wipe half the enemy army out in MTW II before contact. And you sort of have to, for the AI is in fact smart enough to use your own methods against you, even if unrealistic, but I do prefer to have my army sort of historocal and I am consequently longing for someone to do with MTW II what the EB Team did to RTW. I would gladly lend a hand and make the Scandinavian countries more realistic.

[antisocialmunky]

The main issue is of scale since the line depths are really unrealistically thick if you're using a 10 to 1 conversion so a shell can take out an unrealistically large % of your army per shot.

[desert]

Yes, but in a 10:1 scale conversion, that would actually be 10 shots.

[antisocialmunky]

I've always got the impression that artillery isn't really scaled the same as the units though.

[Macilrille]

Another thing I dislike is that the best X-bowmen are better than the best English Archers for that was not really the case. English Archers ruled the battlefield (as long as the French kindly obliged them and attacked into their field of fire, stakes and rough ground).

[Strategos Alexandros]

Agincourt was more due to the French knights being higher ranking than their commander and going off in wild charges into the mud or their allies than any particular effectiveness of the English Longbowmen though. Granted the Longbowmen were skilled but crossbows were better against armour, despite having a much longer reload time.

[Cute Wolf]

Well, The pike problem is finished long time ago with some animation fixes made by (I forgot...) it does wonders with pikemen.. now pikemen is the most awesome front line unit, but I believe that pike formation and phalanx formation is still diffrent a bit.

I'll just want to ask, if we put the Swiss pikemen against Alexander's Pezhetairoi in equal battle, face to face, with same length pointy sticks, who will win? any suggestion? I'll just want to see who's using their pointy sticks more effectively...

[Iraklis]

well... since Alexanders pikemen where using shield and linothorax and swiss one where using no shield or body armor that the later would have biger mortality rate... Then again i could be mistaken.

[bobbin]

Also i think the sarissa was usually a fair bit longer that the pike, not completely sure though.

[Strategos Alexandros]

It wasn't that much different in length, but in real life the Swiss would be supported by better missile armed troops than the Makedonians, and were arguably the best pike in the world at the time. Plus their first rank of halberdiers and Zweihander wielders would most likely tear the phalanx apart.

[Roka]

They're very lucky they didn't have to face up against massed English longbowmen. What a shame, the slaughter would have been amusing to read.

if you want to read something along those lines, i suggest reading about the battle of falkirk

pesky longbowmen :(

[Macilrille]

Oh yea Baby, pesky Longbowmen, only way to kill them really was mobility, get horse behind them, but I cannot really think of any instances anyone succeeded in that. Did De Guesclin manage to or was it his "Fabian" tactics alone that stopped the British steamroller?

Not very historically accurate, but Conan Doyle's "The White Company" is definately worth a read. To us historically interested (we are or we would not be here) it also gives a contrast between the mentality of late 19th/early 20th century mentality and that of today where the bloodbaths of the World wars has wearied and made us wary of war.

[Macilrille]

BTW, MTW II really need the "Real" Danish/Anglo-Danish Huscarls to make an appearance with long chainmail, helmet, shield on their backs, sword at their side and the 2 m Daneaxe in their hand, Bring It On Norman Knights! The Bayeux Tapestry shows a guy wielding one of those axes killing rider and horse in one blow. This would take tremendous force though and both open the wielder for attacks from the dead man's friends and require room to swing, More often it would likely be used like a meat chopper hacking and slicing, is has a real good cutting shape and edge. But I tell you, though it is not my favourite weapon, I have wielded it and it has tremendous force when wielded by a strong and skillful man. Pity the poor sods facing the Hird/Huscarle...

[Cute Wolf]

I just curious which side has better pike handling technique? Macedonians or Swiss?

[Macilrille]

I do not think we can know, you could invent a time mascine and bring some of both forwards to have them compare techniques and fight, but apart from that I suspect our sources are lacking. Both kicked proverbial at their time, but were their enemies the same? What eventually did defeat both a Landsknecht pikeblock and a Macedonian Phanlanx was tough and well trained mobile inf with short weapons and shield. Ravenna and Kynoscephelai/Pydna.

[mikil100]

I'd say they beat themselves, reading on both.. Arrogance and inability to adapt, not necesarily the weapons.

[Strategos Alexandros]

I'd say they beat themselves, reading on both.. Arrogance and inability to adapt, not necesarily the weapons.

Agreed. I would still support the Swiss in a straight fight though. Better disciplined as well as being full time soldiers. If only we had a time machine with a large capacity!

[mikil100]

Agreed. I would still support the Swiss in a straight fight though. Better disciplined as well as being full time soldiers. If only we had a time machine with a large capacity!

From an equipment standpoint, weren't the phalangites equipped with longer spears than the Swiss? That with a shield just makes me think the Swiss couldn't even get to the pikemen without heavy casualties, mostly cause they didnt have shields. This is probably just me loving the Diadochi in EBI.. I'm too biased. lol

[Macilrille]

Pike 3-6 m
Sarissa 4-7 m

Armour of both antagonists would be about the same, Phalangites would have shields, Swiss pike would have people with Lucerne Hammers or Halbards mixed in, German Pike would have Zweihänder/Doppelsöldner, Tercios would have people with shield and sword, all for same purpose, breaking enemy formation by getting in amongst them and start the slaughter.

I cannot say who would win, except Roman Legions, English Longbow, HA, or the Tercios that defeated Pike at Ravenna, but they would beat both, while both would probably be close to equal in a head to head. Dunno, perhaps the "Block-breakers" would make the diference.

[Cute Wolf]

Well, let's hope that the Macedonian pezhetairoi's first line didn't sit down and crouch (like the swiss) when they are ordered to halt...:laugh4:

[Megas Methuselah]

That only happens when guard mode is on. If you remove their secondary weapons (the pigstickers), then take off guardmode, even the most basic militia pikemen become ice-cold mass murderers. It's scary, to be honest.