Mounted Slingers [Archive]

Aemilius Paulus

01-25-2009, 02:42

Meth is right. That was the main reason. A wealthy man had at least the skill to shoot a bow, especially if he was a nomad or an easterner. In the west, mounted missiles, aside from javelineers were exceedingly rare, mostly due to the heavily forested country. In the East, bow was preferred.

Also, try slinging a sling from a horse. Pretty difficult. Helicopter-style slinging could work, but you need a very stable platform for aiming a sling, as opposed to a bow, which is somewhat easier to handle.

russia almighty

01-25-2009, 04:03

Were slings ever used from elephants?

Ibrahim

01-25-2009, 04:07

Were slings ever used from elephants?

doubt it-for similar reasons to horse sling minus stability issues.

desert

01-25-2009, 04:12

One can almost imagine a peasant mounted atop an elephant encased in gleaming, ornately decorated iron scale and covered in purple tapestries, while an infantryman standing in the line opposite to it throws off his armor and weapons, screaming "He's got a ******* sling, run!!"

antisocialmunky

01-25-2009, 04:55

doubt it-for similar reasons to horse sling minus stability issues.

You're in a very small tower with a few other guys. If I were one of the other guys and someone took out a sling, I'd kick him off the elephant.

antisocialmunky

01-25-2009, 14:34

You're not going to spin a rock at 90 miles per hour next to my head.

HorusLupercal

01-26-2009, 03:44

probably would hit the horse in the head if you screwed up even a little bit,. maybe the elephant itself could have a sling, using their trunks... lol

AqD

01-26-2009, 17:54

hmmm I think the arabians had slingers mounted on camel? Read it somewhere from osprey's book... :book:

Mediolanicus

01-26-2009, 18:22

Camels? That's even more wobbely than sitting on a horse... That can't be good for your aim.

HorusLupercal

01-27-2009, 04:24

where are the camels in EB? i kinda miss them

Novellus

01-27-2009, 05:43

where are the camels in EB? i kinda miss them

Oh no! I'll save the trouble from an EB Forum thrashing!:drama1:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=77793&highlight=camels

Chester

01-27-2009, 06:57

If you can shoot a cannon from an elephant then you can sling a rock from a horse. Oh ya~

Celtic_Punk

01-27-2009, 16:00

So did these exist at all? I'm curious to know... somewhere someone must have rocked someone with a sling on a horse... if not... I'm goin' for the record!

Moros

01-27-2009, 16:23

Never heard of mounted slingers, neither on camel or on horse. (Which doesn't mean noone has ever done it) But I don't think they ever existed as real military units. Camel archers did though, they probably also gonna be in EBII.

theoldbelgian

01-27-2009, 16:33

well you have those south american cowboys who use their bolas to catch catlle while being on horseback
i think its the same principe

of course if i am totally wrong correct me

Recoil

01-27-2009, 17:11

mounted slingers, sounds sweet. shame it was probably never practical enough to actually be used

Ibrahim

01-27-2009, 17:15

well you have those south american cowboys who use their bolas to catch catlle while being on horseback
i think its the same principe

of course if i am totally wrong correct me

no, you are right. but IIRC, this was a spanish adaptation of the native use of the bolas (which would have been on foot). hence, IIRC, only existed in the last 500 years. prior to that, there is no evidence of mounted slingers, at least not to my knowlege.

bovi

01-27-2009, 18:03

Camel archers did though, they probably also gonna be in EBII.
Huh, what? Did I miss something?

Ibrahim

01-27-2009, 18:06

Huh, what? Did I miss something?

Shalemenser recorded those troops in the battle of Qarqar. I suspect that they might have just rode them to fight, dismount, and then fight (save a few extraordinary cases). Camels were/are expensive, and wasteful to kill. either way, archers did ride, and if necessary, fight on camelback.

though, yeah, what are they doing in EB2? I was under the impression that that wasn't the plan.

Megas Methuselah

01-28-2009, 03:42

Moros was just teasing the fans. It's funny, seeing as he also managed to fool the members, too. :smile:

Atilius

01-28-2009, 04:00

O'ETAIPOS has mentioned that "mounted slingers" appears in an edition of Arrian's "Taktike", but that's his favorite example of a mistranslation.

Megas Methuselah

01-28-2009, 04:54

What's a Taktike? :inquisitive:

Aemilius Paulus

01-28-2009, 05:13

What's a Taktike? :inquisitive:

C'mon Meth, stop spamming, use Google or Wikipedia to answer such questions. Obviously, Taktika, is Tactics, and actually, in Russian, tactics is pronounced taktika. So it is an ancient tactical treatise. Go here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrian) to find out more.

Tim Van Langenhove

01-28-2009, 09:50

Macilrille

01-28-2009, 14:00

No- no- no.
Sorry guys, but a sling is impractible to say the least on horseback. Have you guys ever tried a sling? Do it, or watch someobedy doing it, then come back and tell me you still think mounted slingers are a good idea.

They could dismount and have someone hold their horses then use slings, but not on horseback. No.

Silence Hunter

01-28-2009, 14:04

Well I've done a little reading about Sassanid cavalry when working on a paper and I have read (don't know exactely which book it was in) that some their heavy cavalry (usually referred to as Cataphracts or Clibinarii) used slingers to soften enemy ranks before charging in to them with melee weapons. So mounted slinger units probably existed but probably not as a seperate unit type as we would use it in EB. But it would be correct if we applied them to heavy (cataphract cavalry), maybe instead of bows.

They used slings or slingers? Because IMHO there is a greater chance of them using slingers(units) rather than slings as a cataphract weapon.

ziegenpeter

01-28-2009, 14:16

Did YOU try using a sling on horseback? I don't think its impossible, its surely not easy but without trying I wouldnt pretend its impossible. If I didnt knew better I'd also think wielding a spear singlehanded is nigh-impossible but there might have been a few guys in the past beeing able to do so.

Cute Wolf

01-28-2009, 14:42

well, maybe they use Y shaped slings instead, they are quite handy, and you can use them quite well on bicycle (just remember to learn ride without hands first)

Silence Hunter

01-28-2009, 14:44

well, maybe they use Y shaped slings instead, they are quite handy, and you can use them quite well on bicycle (just remember to learn ride without hands first)

These are only useful to get rid of neighbours windows :laugh4: . Not break armor and cause injuries.

Macilrille

01-28-2009, 14:45

No I did not, I have used one though, and in the past when I had a horsegirl GF I have also ridden. The simple fact of it is that the sling is too long to use without smacking the horse, which is generally a bad idea. Only way to do so would be to whirl i parralel to the horse's flank- which would only allow you to shoot in one direction, or over your head- which to my knowledge makes it impossible to aim, you find a horse and try it, and let me know the result. I am not going to, horses are skittish animals that do not like being smacked by leather strings (not even warhorses likes that- and in any case if you could afford to train a warhorse, you would not be a slinger).

As for spears wielded one-handed that depends on the spear. I personally use mine two-handed, but it is light enough that in a pinch I can use it in one hand (especially when I get over my injured elbows), and we have lighter versions for use in one hand.
That can be seen here http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=948208&id=696459871, here http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=43282&id=696459871&op=6#/photo.php?pid=948461&id=696459871 and here http://www.facebook.com/album.php?page=1&aid=43280&id=696459871#/photo.php?pid=949115&id=696459871, or wielded by my friend Nikolai here http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=948183&id=696459871 and http://www.facebook.com/photos.php?id=696459871&s=6#/photo.php?pid=948077&id=696459871.

Good luck with your sling experiment.

Cute Wolf

01-28-2009, 15:18

Well, they will have to learn to aim their Y shaped slings as indirect fire, rising their sling higher than horse's head. Anyway:

Originally posted by Silence Hunter:
These are only useful to get rid of neighbours windows . Not break armor and cause injuries.
I can tell you, those kids on my neighbourhood are capable to create bumps on the metal dustbins... and My personal bad experiment in my primary school: I was once punished because I break my friend's upper-arm bone by using a rock and a sling...:furious3: break bones! that was my childhood experiment with the Y shaped sling... and now, what did you expect from a squad of trained men with Y shaped slings?

As long as you didn't say "A bunch of big bad naughty boys that had unhappy childhood syndrome":laugh4:

ziegenpeter

01-28-2009, 15:19

Lets forget about the spear...so it is possible, if though its hard. Aiming in battle is AFAIK only an issue when your far away from the enemy. otherwise you rather need some skil to NOT hit someone...

Maybe Hunter was talking about a slingSHOT https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/52/Slingshot_%28weapon%29.jpg/180px-Slingshot_%28weapon%29.jpg
and Cute Wolf about a staff sling, http://slinging.org/articleimages/23/staffsling1.gif
also existing in an Y form

anyways

this page is kind of interesting http://slinging.org/index.php?page=slinging-styles---david-taylor

Macilrille

01-28-2009, 15:42

Cute, I think you will find a distinct lack of rubber band in ancient times.

Peter, aiming as in making it fly generally the way you want and not just sideways.

Again good luck, were you Danish I would offer to visit you in the hospital. Call me preconcieved, but...

Ludens

01-28-2009, 20:25

Well I've done a little reading about Sassanid cavalry when working on a paper and I have read (don't know exactely which book it was in) that some their heavy cavalry (usually referred to as Cataphracts or Clibinarii) used slingers to soften enemy ranks before charging in to them with melee weapons. So mounted slinger units probably existed but probably not as a seperate unit type as we would use it in EB. But it would be correct if we applied them to heavy (cataphract cavalry), maybe instead of bows.

Interesting, could you look up the reference? Still, Sassanid are out of EB's time frame, and it may have been a one-off thing. Certainly, it would not be correct to give cataphracts slings, as noblemen would have used a bow.

PraetorFigus

01-28-2009, 21:13

This is interesting, however impractical it seems. The key is using stirrups.

Without stirrups or some other way to even stabilize your legs there is no easy way to use a simple rope sling on horseback, even with stirrups the force needed for a sling seems greater then a bola, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

So, ancient mounted slingers seems unlikely, also the training involved with using a sling to bow and the training to ride without stirrups and use melee weapons would certainly not favor mounted slinger troops.

And as said before, swinging a sling in a tower mounted on an elephant is also impractical because of how the tower moves (wobbles) as the elephant moves about, let alone being able to not hit anyone else on the elephant, and then if the elephant panics, forget it.

A quick search online I found this thread on Mounted Slingers starting with message #1861 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AncientTactics/messages/1880?viscount=-30&l=1

They bring up a lot of what has been said here already.

The only other reference not talking about truck-"mounted slinger" was something on another game where slingers lay waste to a city... (second paragraph after the picture) http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/empire-earth-2/555274p1.html

Os-Q

01-28-2009, 21:44

Maybe the texts about Ligurians and Sassanids mean that they carrying slings but not using them on horseback.

I suppose (Baseless conjecture) slingers could ride a horse up to a strategic location (top of a slope for example), get off the horse, pelt the enemy until they get close, mount up and ride away. This idea has a lot against it though, for one:

A horse is expensive and slings are usually regarded as a poorer man's weapon.

Tim Van Langenhove

01-28-2009, 23:59

To reply to the first quote, yes they used slings as a weapon, and when you are wealthy enough to get a horse powerful enough to carry that amount of full armour required for a cataphract I'm sure they could muster a bow too, so they would actually have to carry it to symbolise their status. And I want to emphasis, they did not use slings as their main weapon and probably, but that's just my own guess, when the horses were stationary.

As for the reasearch I'll see to it as soon as my classes start again, but that's only in another two weeks so patience my friends. I'll try to see if I could get some information online too (though that's mostely not half as reliable)

Tim Van Langenhove

01-29-2009, 00:06

Quick update, on wikipedia they mention sling and pellets as an addition to the normal panoply they carry. But it doesn't imply it is a common usage.

Cute Wolf

01-29-2009, 09:37

distinct lack of rubber band in ancient times.

Oh yeah... my fault....:laugh4:

russia almighty

01-29-2009, 13:57

Wait,

I think I've heard of this before, about the Sassanid sling. Except it was like that one native American weapon to chuck a javelin (Atiatal? (sp)

Moros

01-29-2009, 16:08

Huh, what? Did I miss something?

Apparantly you did. Qwerty already was even planning to get them in EB 1 if he didn't have so few unitslots. They were left out as the Sabaeans needed more southern arabian units, and camels weren't used in warfare in Arabia much. However in northern Arabia they were used and if unitslots aren't going to be a problem this time they'll go in. There are a few more examples of Sabaean/arabian units that didn't get into EB 1 because of unitslots and because of the dissapearance from the faction's lead historians.

Strategos Alexandros

01-29-2009, 17:23

Either he's telling the truth or the EB Official Misinformation Department (EBOMD) is trying a new plan.

To be more on topic, wouldn't a slinger on horseback be just as likely to brain his horse as hit the enemy? I've never used a sling but I have ridden a horse and it doesn't really seem possible

Moros

01-29-2009, 18:25

Quick update, on wikipedia they mention sling and pellets as an addition to the normal panoply they carry. But it doesn't imply it is a common usage.
Tim, so you study in Leuven? I do, and you're name suggest you're Flemish, and you're classes start at the same time as me.

Edit: Nope I'm quite serious about north arabian camel archers.

Subotan

01-29-2009, 18:45

A horse is expensive and slings are usually regarded as a poorer man's weapon.
Use a donkey :D

Wait,

I think I've heard of this before, about the Sassanid sling. Except it was like that one native American weapon to chuck a javelin (Atiatal? (sp)

Atlatl? (http://www.worldatlatl.org/WhatisAtlatl_HowtoThrow.html)

Macilrille

01-29-2009, 18:52

"To be more on topic, wouldn't a slinger on horseback be just as likely to brain his horse as hit the enemy? I've never used a sling but I have ridden a horse and it doesn't really seem possible"

If you scroll up you will see that is basically my argument against it, but they persist...

antisocialmunky

01-29-2009, 23:39

You could have them like dragoons where they dismount to sling. It's still a useless idea.

bovi

01-30-2009, 15:41

Qwerty already was even planning to get them in EB 1 if he didn't have so few unitslots. They were left out as the Sabaeans needed more southern arabian units, and camels weren't used in warfare in Arabia much. However in northern Arabia they were used and if unitslots aren't going to be a problem this time they'll go in. There are a few more examples of Sabaean/arabian units that didn't get into EB 1 because of unitslots and because of the dissapearance from the faction's lead historians.
Then why are the only references in our Saba thread on the internal forum saying that they were not used in battle and horses were preferred?

Edit: Searched for camel.

Moros

01-30-2009, 16:44

Then why are the only references in our Saba thread on the internal forum saying that they were not used in battle and horses were preferred?

Edit: Searched for camel.

By the sabaeans yes indeed. The sabaeans themselves never used them in battle well at least not as far as we know during our timeframe. There are two reliefs from around the 2nd A.D with men mounted on camels carrying spears though from saba.* However northern arabian tribes did use them mainly as archers though. Though there's one mention of using them as 'bulldozers' against light jewish infantry. Palmyrans, Belymnae, Nabataeans,... used them. Sabaeans and other southern arbians, and most other arabs however didn't use them.

A post of Qwerty and VC backing me up:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1392036&postcount=16
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1392328&postcount=25

*
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Stele_Iglum_Louvre_AO1029.jpg

Edit: thrust me bovi I'm not making this up for spicing up the unit rooster. Plus let us refrain from discussing future EB units in public before we start giving things away, heh!?

MeinPanzer

01-30-2009, 22:08

By the sabaeans yes indeed. The sabaeans themselves never used them in battle well at least not as far as we know during our timeframe. There are two reliefs from around the 2nd A.D with men mounted on camels carrying spears though from saba.* However northern arabian tribes did use them mainly as archers though. Though there's one mention of using them as 'bulldozers' against light jewish infantry. Palmyrans, Belymnae, Nabataeans,... used them. Sabaeans and other southern arbians, and most other arabs however didn't use them.

A post of Qwerty and VC backing me up:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1392036&postcount=16
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1392328&postcount=25

*
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Stele_Iglum_Louvre_AO1029.jpg

Edit: thrust me bovi I'm not making this up for spicing up the unit rooster. Plus let us refrain from discussing future EB units in public before we start giving things away, heh!?

The man on that stele is riding a horse, but yes, there is some evidence of camels being ridden in warfare in Southern Arabia, but a century or two after the EB timeframe. Then again, almost all of the evidence for Sabaean armament and costume is taken from monuments postdating the EB timeframe, so chances are good that they were used during the EB period, too.

Moros

01-31-2009, 00:41

MP yeah stupid me posted the wrong picture Gah! I'll look for the correct one.

Anyway for southern arabia I only know of evidence after our time frame, and specialist seem indeed to think that they weren't used by them. However there's enough evidence that in our time frame northen Arabians used them. And one camel unit is more than enough so where perfectly safe at that. (The only difference would merely be clothing so I think everyone is happy) It's historical and the fan camels get their camels, and it makes for a nicer unit rooster.