The Emerging Factions (Rebels and Revolutions)

[Fisherking]

:book:


My take on this , from what little we actually know, is that when a province rebels it becomes a nation and when your Capital rebels you have a revolution.

We know that you have a choice of the side to take in Revolutions and you may just have to put up with the end result if your forces loose.

We also know that if the American Colonies Rebel you may be able to play as them. The same may be true of other provinces, or even all of them…That would be why each province has its own Rebel Faction.

Of course I am only guessing here but I think that if you have conquered, for example ,France and it rebels then you have a reemerging faction on your hands, just like in old MTW.

On the other hand, I am wondering if there may be some special rebels. Like the Jacobites for example, which could crop up in a number of provinces.

I do recall a thread I looked at on the official site that said Ireland could become a nation. We also have a little blurb saying Scotland can become a nation. If the Jacobites are actually in the game this would not be the case if they were the winners. It would be a change in Kingship. It could be a tool for the French, Spanish, or even the Austrians to undermine Brittan with, or just a random event.

We have them hinted at in several places but what actually happens, at least for me, is wide open to speculation.

If we are very lucky it may be something some of our CA members can clarify. If it is a deep dark secret I suppose the final proof will come in March.

I could have easily missed some crucial phraseology in an article some where.

Who else has views on this subject?

:help:

[Sir Beane]

I have views on it! I have views on everything. :laugh4:

Here's how I think this will work, in a point by point break down.

~ Each province will have it's own specific rebel faction (this has been confirmed by interview)

~ If your main province rebels then you iwll have a revolution on your hands.

~ If the lower class rebel it will result in a mass rebellion pushing for a Republic.

~ If the upper class rebel it will be an organised armed rebellion pushing for a monarchy, or a new king.

~ You can support either side, if your side loses then you just have to live with it, or you may lose the game, no one is sure.

~ In certain circumstances proper emergent factions can appear. Ones mentioned so for include The

~ Jacobites (or Scotland), Ireland and Greece and the Thirteen colonies. No one is sure if these are playable.

~ The Thirteen colonies may be, but no one is 100% sure.

~ I think Fisherking is right that old factions can re-emerge if their traditional provinces rebel. It will be like Medieval all over again! :2thumbsup:


So mostly I think Fisherking is right about everything, with the small exception that I'm not certain players will be given the option of playing as the US if they rebel. That might just be in the Road to Independance campaign.

[Pinxit]

Emerging factions, rebels and revolutions will add a new dimension to the game. However, what I really dislike about Total War games in general, is the fact that when you reach a certain point in power and success, there is nothing there to put up a fight, to challenge you anymore. Consequently, all that remains is to, without major resistance, conquer the rest of the map.

The Emerging Factions should help overcome this dull fact. Also, it should be a great way to tear apart a stronger enemy.
Hm... is it possible to "inspire" the potential rebels in a hostile faction to rebel? And if so, in what ways? Diplomacy?

:balloon2:

[Polemists]

I think Fisherking is right that old factions can re-emerge if there traditional provinces rebel. It will be like Medieval all over again!


is the fact that when you reach a certain point in power and success, there is nothing there to put up a fight, to challenge you anymore

Yes...speaking as someone who played MTW and took over Rome alot...I can say that having some random guy pop up every 10-14 years as the new faction ruler with a army of armed citizens at his command will try you in ways beyond military :P (i'm looking at you random hier appears pope faction.)



The Emerging Factions should help overcome this dull fact. Also, it should be a great way to tear apart a stronger enemy.
Hm... is it possible to "inspire" the potential rebels to rebel? And if so, in what ways?

Well, we know that the two ways the different classes rebel is Nobles send letters and peasant go on strike. Neither of which like taxes.

So I'd assume you could blockade economic centers, causing more people to go on strike, or since people like victories just conquer a bit of prime real estate.

There may be something the gentlemen or rake can do as no one is 100% sure on there actual missions yet other then broad spectrum.

I hope your right, as the most disappointing thing about Rome was that unless you played as a roman house the roman houses never tried to take over the senate. I'd like to see a few of the other factions have rebellions as well, would be nice.

[Ishmael]

*shudders dramatically* please dont tell me that factions will re-emerge like in Medieval 1...i got so sick of killing that darned pope (i swear he and his entire army were zombies) that i ended up surrounding rome with full stacks and blockading the province. i tended to do this to all factions actually-just surrounding their last province withj troops and occasionally raiding it to reduce their numbers. As you may have guesses, i do not want to see this again.
That said, im looking forward to civil wars again-i dont know why, but something about my huge empire being rent into two huge warring superpowers makes me very excited. I used to try to start civil wars in medieval, but for some reason i very rarely could. Hopefully there'll be a cheat to trigger a civil war.

[Polemists]

Not sure on cheat, but most gamers seem to understand the code and event code pretty good.

I'm sure there will be someway to adjust unrest in the capital to a level enough to start it, if just natural unrest dosn't do it.

I assume though civil war will be common, as revoultion seems to be a major aspect of gameplay.

[Sir Beane]

Not sure on cheat, but most gamers seem to understand the code and event code pretty good.

I'm sure there will be someway to adjust unrest in the capital to a level enough to start it, if just natural unrest dosn't do it.

I assume though civil war will be common, as revoultion seems to be a major aspect of gameplay.

Actually I'm betting they won't be common for the player unless they are deliberately trying to start one.

If Empire is anything like Rome and Medieval 2 then I won't be letting the happiness in my home province drop anywhere near low enough to trigger a civil war. My home provinces are always at 100% or higher, and I think most players are probably similar.

We might see the A.I constantly at war with itself however, since the A.I has never been great at managing anything much, and province loyalty is no exception.

@ Ishmael

If you really hate the idea of re-emerging factions then you can probably mod it out of the game. I hope the vanilla game has it however, because it is easier to mod it out than in.

[Polemists]

Clearly to properly understand the depths of revoultion and province loyalty (yes your seeing a trend now) we clearly need


A DEMO:whip:

[Fisherking]

Clearly to properly understand the depths of revoultion and province loyalty (yes your seeing a trend now) we clearly need


A DEMO:whip:

Why don’t you just make Demo your signature! It will save you a lot of time.


@ Sir Beane

I don’t know what game you were playing but at times in M2TW it took me years and years to get some places to rebel.

Some I had 100% converted and no improvements and it still was not enough!

I had to resort to herding in heretics in the end. And they had a tendency to die from old age on the way!

Have you ever tried to herd heretics? It isn’t fun and it is time consuming! Just finding one when you want it is a problem, not to mention inquisitors and AI bishops trying to get at them….


:laugh4:

[Sir Beane]

Why don’t you just make Demo your signature! It will save you a lot of time.


@ Sir Beane

I don’t know what game you were playing but at times in M2TW it took me years and years to get some places to rebel.

Some I had 100% converted and no improvements and it still was not enough!

I had to resort to herding in heretics in the end. And they had a tendency to die from old age on the way!

Have you ever tried to herd heretics? It isn’t fun and it is time consuming! Just finding one when you want it is a problem, not to mention inquisitors and AI bishops trying to get at them….


:laugh4:

Well it's a different manner when you want to get an A.I province to rebel. I'm sure some kind of code kicks in called 'frustrate the player' thus making all A.I provinces skyrocket to 200% loyalty. :laugh4:

If you aren't actively trying to cause a revolt though the A.I seems to hover at around 80% loyalty in many of it's provinces. This is usually a result of it not upgrading infrastructure or keeping cities properly garrisoned.

Also for herding heretics you need a special kind of dog. It's like a border collie except imbued with the righteous fury of the catholic church. I hear that it glows with holy power, which is useful for herding at night and also for keeping vampires away. :beam:

[Polemists]

:laugh4:
Why don’t you just make Demo your signature! It will save you a lot of time

It is done but I assure you the demo mentions have only just begun


Oh onto topic.


Well it didn't happen in Rome because there was a factor based on Distance from Capital under unrest. This usually was the reason places revolted. It was reason people moved capitals.

So your capital wouldn't revolt because it usually had no Distance from Capital and usually it didn't have high corruption. Plus , as it is your Capital, Religion Unrest and Cultural Unrest were usually non exsistant :)

[Sir Beane]

:laugh4:

It is done but I assure you the demo mentions have only just begun


Oh onto topic.


Well it didn't happen in Rome because there was a factor based on Distance from Capital under unrest. This usually was the reason places revolted. It was reason people moved capitals.

So your capital wouldn't revolt because it usually had no Distance from Capital and usually it didn't have high corruption. Plus , as it is your Capital, Religion Unrest and Cultural Unrest were usually non exsistant :)

Exactly, which is why I don't see civil war occuring very often for the player unless they are doing it deliberately. It's a good thing though, because despite what marketing hype might have you believe civil wars and revoutions were not all that common from 1700-1799. They happened, but not all the time everywhere.

Unless of course loyalty works somehwat differently in Empire, which it probably will.

I really want to post up a thread saying something like CA releases Empire Demo! Just for the inevitable storm of hatred and disappointment (which is always hilarious for a spectator.) Of course then I would be lynched (especially because I used my real location.)

[Polemists]

While slightly out of the time frame Sir Beane, your head would be sent to CA as a example of demo displeasure similiar to Braveheart :laugh4: (kidding of course....mostly :P)


On to topic.

I'd like to see two new stats, Liberty and Tyrranny, based on how you act as a ruler. Basically when you give freedoms, lower taxes, do nice stuff, Liberty goes up and people will not revolt but will demand more.

When you deny things, act without reason, or push down your iron fist, Tyrrany goes up. People are more likely to revolt, but will not demand liberties.

Or something similiar.

[Fisherking]

Well it's a different manner when you want to get an A.I province to rebel. I'm sure some kind of code kicks in called 'frustrate the player' thus making all A.I provinces skyrocket to 200% loyalty. :laugh4:

If you aren't actively trying to cause a revolt though the A.I seems to hover at around 80% loyalty in many of it's provinces. This is usually a result of it not upgrading infrastructure or keeping cities properly garrisoned.

Also for herding heretics you need a special kind of dog. It's like a border collie except imbued with the righteous fury of the catholic church. I hear that it glows with holy power, which is useful for herding at night and also for keeping vampires away. :beam:

That was really no joke about herding heretics!

It is a variant on the surround and squish! You have to surround on three sides and steer the little fellow to where you want him to go.

Horsemen work best because they have more moves…of course you can set up relays to move them faster…

Sorry, no border collie units!

They say they have taken all the exploits out of this game. Ha! We think we have found at least one and we don’t have the game yet!

Just wait!


:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

[Polemists]

They say they have taken all the exploits out of this game. Ha! We think we have found at least one and we don’t have the game yet!

Yes and we could find more exploits.....if we had a demo ....o wait...that argument dosn't work :laugh4:


Okay on to topic at hand.


While I hope the emerging factions get enough units to start I hope they are not over power. It was kind of ridiculous how strong the Roman Britannia faction was , like 800 knights out of nowhere from a province of 100 spear men lol

[Sir Beane]

Yes and we could find more exploits.....if we had a demo ....o wait...that argument dosn't work :laugh4:


Okay on to topic at hand.


While I hope the emerging factions get enough units to start I hope they are not over power. It was kind of ridiculous how strong the Roman Britannia faction was , like 800 knights out of nowhere from a province of 100 spear men lol

The size of the emerging faction should be based on the population of the province, the level of infrastructure in the province, and how much the parent faction is hated by people in the province.

That way emergin factions would have a little realism, and not be able to magically summon things that the province could never train. :laugh4:

[Polemists]

The size of the emerging faction should be based on the population of the province, the level of infrastructure in the province, and how much the parent faction is hated by people in the province.

That way emergin factions would have a little realism, and not be able to magically summon things that the province could never train.


Yes but i'm not even sure what unique units they get. I mean if your greece, wouldn't you just get musket men in new uniforms?


Oh, and I'd like to magically summon............a demo :yes:

[Sir Beane]

Yes but i'm not even sure what unique units they get. I mean if your greece, wouldn't you just get musket men in new uniforms?


Oh, and I'd like to magically summon............a demo :yes:

Since it's Greece you get hoplites and you like it. :laugh4:

Scotland are emergent and I imagine they get a few unique units such as Clansmen. Who knows for the rest really?

I guess if we want to know more about the game we need some sort of method of playing the game before it is released.

Like a... sample, or a trial or maybe a ... demonstration?

[Polemists]

Welcome to the Demo Side of the Fanclub Sir Beane, your I heart Demo t-shirt awaits you :laugh4:


That said, clansmen sound cool, but i'm just not sure, I mean if they give all these melee units to everyone, I'm not sure they will help much in one on one battles against riflemen.

They may be a good general kill unit tho, if you can break them through the lines.

[Sir Beane]

Welcome to the Demo Side of the Fanclub Sir Beane, your I heart Demo t-shirt awaits you :laugh4:


That said, clansmen sound cool, but i'm just not sure, I mean if they give all these melee units to everyone, I'm not sure they will help much in one on one battles against riflemen.

They may be a good general kill unit tho, if you can break them through the lines.

I think they will be good for ambushes and sneak attacks, as well as well-timed charges used to break the enemy line and morale.

I don't mind if CA throw a few melee units around, it just adds a bit of flavor to a game mostly filled with guns and silly hats. :laugh4:

[Pinxit]

I think they will be good for ambushes and sneak attacks, as well as well-timed charges used to break the enemy line and morale.

I don't mind if CA throw a few melee units around, it just adds a bit of flavor to a game mostly filled with guns and silly hats. :laugh4:

Sure hope they wont make them to powerful. Even the best melee should die if hit by a bullet.

Clansmen taking as much fire as Ben Stiller did in Tropic Thunder is worst case scenario.

:balloon2:

[Rhyfelwyr]

I really hope CA do not make the Jacobites = Scotland. That would be horrendeously innacurate. :no:

[Sir Beane]

I really hope CA do not make the Jacobites = Scotland. That would be horrendeously innacurate. :no:

I think the Jacobites will be one form that a rebellion in Scotland can take, but not the only form. It's hard to say really as this paticular feature of the game has not been mentioned much by CA. We'll just have to wait and see when the game is released.

[Polemists]

Lol love the siggie Beanie


On to topic.

No one knows how the units or rebellions will work, though I think CA knows enough history to not be to inaccurate....I mean it's not like they did cannons on Elephants or anything :laugh4:

[Martok]

I really hope CA do not make the Jacobites = Scotland. That would be horrendeously innacurate. :no:
Seconded. If the Jacobites rise up, then I want to see them Ireland and England as well. :yes:

As Sir Beane said, I hope the Jacobites are only one form of a "Scottish" rebellion. :sweatdrop:

[Fisherking]

Seconded. If the Jacobites rise up, then I want to see them Ireland and England as well. :yes:

As Sir Beane said, I hope the Jacobites are only one form of a "Scottish" rebellion. :sweatdrop:

You bet!

And if they had done them right they would be a landless faction in play. One the other Factions could supply with money and troops. One with their own agents stirring the pot to cause trouble or gaining influence.

But I feel sure that won’t be the case…too bad, really…

[Sir Beane]

You bet!

And if they had done them right they would be a landless faction in play. One the other Factions could supply with money and troops. One with their own agents stirring the pot to cause trouble or gaining influence.

But I feel sure that won’t be the case…too bad, really…

Sadly I think you are right. I doubt CA would put a faction with no land in. Instead they probably start with Scotland and then march on London. Or possibly they start with an army or two and have to take Scotland first.

I'm sure that we can use mods to fix any innacuracies however, I'm just grateful we get emergent factions at all. :laugh4:

[Paradox]

Sadly I think you are right. I doubt CA would put a faction with no land in. Instead they probably start with Scotland and then march on London. Or possibly they start with an army or two and have to take Scotland first.
Don't the Mongol hordes in M2TW start with no land? CA have applied landless factions before, especially in BI. I wasn't aware of the Jacobites until they were mentioned here.

[Sir Beane]

Don't the Mongol hordes in M2TW start with no land? CA have applied landless factions before, especially in BI. I wasn't aware of the Jacobites until they were mentioned here.

That's true actually. Both the Mongols and the Timurids start the game with no land and wander around until they take a city.

The Jacobites aren't a very well known part of history really. Not even in England. I only know about them because a local city, Derby, is famous for being the furthest place Bonnie Prince Charlie (the Jacobite leader) reached before he turned around. I've seen his statue in person. :2thumbsup: In fact I've used him as a bench.

[The New Che Guevara]

The Jacobites aren't a very well known part of history really. Not even in England. I only know about them because a local city, Derby, is famous for being the furthest place Bonnie Prince Charlie (the Jacobite leader) reached before he turned around. I've seen his statue in person. :2thumbsup: In fact I've used him as a bench.

That's because... firstly england is perfect, we have "never" had any prince rebellions 'cos the royal family is the only true one kind of british snobbishness. And secondly, we wont admit to losing a few to scotland. When do you ever learn about the wars of independance? It's stupid, we cant even learn about the empire! presumably out of fear that people will create new ones or the idea of the slave trade. We've even lost the title Great Britain, we were great once, onw look at us, scotland almost running away ireland previously back from mayhem after we've been there since at least the tudor era, wa;es still not knowing what to do with the assembly they've been given. The so called united Kingdom is breaking up.... whatever happened...

oh and If you think I might be right wing... I prefer the left... I slide about the scale ever so much...

and to stay on topic...

in a revolution, what would decide the political outcome as in say re-enacting the russian revolution (october) earlier. what would control the political side of it?

[lenin96]

I was a bit anoyed when CA said that when the people rebel they will always want a Republic, surly not all people in these times wanted a Republic, like Prussia for example.

[Polemists]

I agree...mobs should have individual desires....like a mob of CA fans...who desire.......a demo :laugh4:


Sooner or later CA will see these posts :P on to topic


I don't think they will all went republic, I mean when nobles revolt they should desire to go back, and peasants the desire to go forward.

So if peasants uprise they want the next liberty stage Monarchy=Parlimentary/Constitutional, P/C=Republic.

If nobles uprise they want the older ways, so Republic=P/C and Monarchy=Parliment.

because if your a noble, why would you want the people to have more power? :laugh4:

[Sir Beane]

I can only ever see the people wanting to put a king on the throne if they had jiust suffered through a spectacularly poorly run democracy and had fond memories of the old king. Otherwise putting a king on the throne is like shotting yourself in the foot for the common person.

Under a Consitutional Monarchy or a Republic the people have rights, a vote and a say in things. Under a monarchy they have no rights at all, except those they can claim at the point of a pitchfork.

While I agree that peasants would not always want the same thing the simplified system CA are using seems like it has the potential to work really well and not be confusing, which is good.

[Polemists]

the people sure but not the nobility.

If you were a noble under King Louis, and now the people have a Parlimental Monarchy, you have no power. Your lands are going to be taken shortly. Your finances are bleak. All you have is a title with little financial holdings.

Now, you hear that the "people" were dumb enough to attack england and prussia at the same time and France just lost half of it's holdings overseas.

I'm pretty sure you are going to want to go back to the monarchy. So you'd gather a armed revolt, grab random unknown child of line whatever, and charge the gates.

I can't see nobles going, "I want you to vote."

Of course they may want you to vote

If that vote

was for


A DEMO

[Sir Beane]

the people sure but not the nobility.

If you were a noble under King Louis, and now the people have a Parlimental Monarchy, you have no power. Your lands are going to be taken shortly. Your finances are bleak. All you have is a title with little financial holdings.

Now, you hear that the "people" were dumb enough to attack england and prussia at the same time and France just lost half of it's holdings overseas.

I'm pretty sure you are going to want to go back to the monarchy. So you'd gather a armed revolt, grab random unknown child of line whatever, and charge the gates.

I can't see nobles going, "I want you to vote."

Of course they may want you to vote

If that vote

was for


A DEMO

Agreed. Nobles obviously would want to go back to the good old feudal system. Which is why CA's way of doing it makes so much sense.

Peasants want power, therefore Republic.

Nobles want power, therefore monarchy.

It will be good if they differentiate between the two by having a peasant rebellion consist of lots of low quality pike troops, with low quality militia muskets, and maybe the odd unit armed with pitchforks for flavor.

A noble rebellion should consist of well paid mercenaries, solid line infantry and cavalry, but not many of them so as to balance it out.

[Polemists]

Exactly, though back to emerging factions i'm not quite sure.

Because on one hand it has to be well armed enough to hold off say a small rebel army, on the other hand, it needs to no be ridicously powerful enough to just wipe everyone off the map.

So like if ireland forms, i'd expect maybe 500 troops, with mostly irish themed units of riflemen, and some light calvary.

I don't think they should have artillery though, or maybe that should be a event. Like after you get letters of discord or strikes if you don't do something they try to storm the armorory or something.

Of course we'll know how affectively these units fight...once we have

a

Demo

[Sir Beane]

I think emerging nations should be made a rare event, and they should be given quite a few troops to make sure they accomplish something.

500 men wouldn't be a great threat to the player, and probably not to an established A.I faction. I think that maybe two stacks or two and a half stacks would be suitable. That number of troops would force and immediate response from whichever nation held the rebel factions lands.

[Polemists]

Once again this depends on the AI and what a stack means.

For instance in MTW1 it was not uncommon to have 5-6 full stacks attack a small nation. In MTW2 your average is one half stack against another half stack. (excluding mongols and crusades).

I mean for example, if everyone is out colonizing, and ireland pops up with 2-3 full stacks, they should not be able to march all the way down and take england.

The build up should be enough to conquer a province/city or two, and scare the home country a bit.

Of course true conquest, shall occur

IN THE DEMO

[Sir Beane]

Once again this depends on the AI and what a stack means.

For instance in MTW1 it was not uncommon to have 5-6 full stacks attack a small nation. In MTW2 your average is one half stack against another half stack. (excluding mongols and crusades).

I mean for example, if everyone is out colonizing, and ireland pops up with 2-3 full stacks, they should not be able to march all the way down and take england.

The build up should be enough to conquer a province/city or two, and scare the home country a bit.

Of course true conquest, shall occur

IN THE DEMO

I think the average force in Empire will be around 1 stack, maybe 1.5.

I just don't want an emergent faction to pop up and then be destroyed the next turn by one of the big factions. Maybe there could be a series of rebellions, with the emergent faction growing stronger turn after turn as rebels join the cause? That would give the player the incentive to qush them before the whole thing gets out of hand.

[Polemists]

I just don't want an emergent faction to pop up and then be destroyed the next turn by one of the big factions. Maybe there could be a series of rebellions, with the emergent faction growing stronger turn after turn as rebels join the cause? That would give the player the incentive to qush them before the whole thing gets out of hand.

This almost reminds me of the Eastern and Western Roman Rebels of Roman Total War BI. Which I throughly enjoyed despite how hard they were.

Partially because at first it would just be the guys that Really didn't like you, loyalty of 2 or something, but then the 4's would join them, and soon the 5's were thinking about it.

I think the emerging factions would be good to to be like that.

Were some of your generals with ties (family in ireland joins ireland etc) would lean towards or have sympathies towards the emergent faction.

I don't want to see them whiped out, and I do want to see them able to grow. I just want to see Ireland conquer all of England in 2 turns :laugh4:

Of course if we had Ireland vs England in a

DEMO

we'd know who is stronger :)

[Fisherking]

Sounds like we need the good old Rebellion of ‘98! :hmg:

Bring it on!!!:pirate2:

A Super duper pooper scooper!!! One turn before the end1!! It would just pawn prestige if they took Dublin!!!:2thumbsup:

Oh God! My sides ache so so much!!

:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

:wizard::birthday2::tnt::tnt::shakehands: