Archers

[Sarkiss]

i have recently tried to shot an arrow. well, while it sure is a lot of fun one thing that struck me is that it is virtually impossible to keep on shooting without the arm guard. you can make a few shots but the string will bounce against bow holding hand and the experience is far from pleasant. in fact it is rather painful. that made me look at the EB's current archers models. there are no arm guards there or in fact in any mod i played at all.
once in the British Museum i took a look at the Assyrian reliefs and the arm guard is a distinct part of the outfit.
while i could not find online a photo of the relief itself i found this picture reconstructing the archer
https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/964/archer7103mdeh1.gif (https://imageshack.us)
https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/archer7103mdeh1.gif/1/w350.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img134/archer7103mdeh1.gif/1/)
you can clearly see he is wearing an arm guard.
my question is whether this little point has been spotted already and what does the team think about it.

[Cute Wolf]

Try holding the bow 30 degree with your hand, using your fist to lean sightly outward, that way, the bowstring won't hurt you...

I got some lesson in archery on my highschool, and this was the first lesson I got from my instructor... Armguards are exspensive, and my school only lend sightly more than 10 bows for 36 students... But I still can't shoot accurately, that was only 4 times lesson, once a week... and it was boring...

[Macilrille]

Armguards are not expensive, I can make a pair for 6-8 Euro in materials if kept simple.

Look at the links I posted, we are all wearing them. Protects lower arms from blows.

[Cute Wolf]

6 euros means 60000 in Rupiahs

and in my country, a life chicken's price is only 10000 Rupiahs (1 euro)... and that armguard is pretty exspensive by most Indonesian's standards... :dizzy2: save the ancient times... they could be more exspensive... in fact, most bowmen are peasants... (save the nobles, but they wear armor!)

[Elmetiacos]

An armguard is certainly not worth 6 chickens.

[Macilrille]

Well a chicken costs much less here as well. I live in Denmark, wellfare state #1 or 2...

And armguard in its simplest form is a piece of tough leather with some string laces...

[Sarkiss]

Well a chicken costs much less here as well. I live in Denmark, wellfare state #1 or 2...

And armguard in its simplest form is a piece of tough leather with some string laces...
yep, it isnt hard to do yourself actually. i dont see how they would go shopping for it back in antiquity~;)

[Macilrille]

Depends on quality, our Mads makes some very high quality ones, good protection and very beautiful. He is a good craftsman almost an artist, such specialists would have had customers in any day and time.

[Cute Wolf]

Actually the unpleasant feel of bowstring whipping your arm is just a little pain, compared to sheer fear you face on the battlefield, and don't forget that if u got it so many times, your arm skin will simply thickens... making you don't mind that kind of pains anymore if you are a battle hardned archers, not a raw recruit.

[Macilrille]

As far as I know English Archers in 100 years war used them. That is about as battle-hardened archers as you get anywhere and anytime I think, if they used them, I would be inclined to do so as well. However, the tremedous draw of their longbows (up to 180 lb) would increase the force of the hit from the string I suppose, so it might be logical that they did so.

[V.T. Marvin]

Good you noticed that, Sarkiss. Being an archer myself, I would say that we can safely assume that arm guards are as old as archery itself. Shooting without it could lead to severe injury to your forearm, while making an effective armguard is extremely easy. You could even do that by wrapping the arm in a piece of cloth. Anyway, whoever could invest the energy, time and resouces to procure a bow and arrows would certainly be able to protect oneself by some sort of arm guard. Therefore I would support the case for giving all archer units something like that.

Cute Wolf - it is NOT a "little pain" easily endured by a hardened veteran. Repeated hits by the bowstring could even sever your skin or lead to painful immflamation of sinews in the forearm. Hard skin is no protection. You need something capable to absorb the hit and disperse it onto larger area. Tough leather is perfectly sufficient for that and easily obtained.

[Moros]

Good you noticed that, Sarkiss. Being an archer myself, I would say that we can safely assume that arm guards are as old as archery itself. Shooting without it could lead to severe injury to your forearm, while making an effective armguard is extremely easy. You could even do that by wrapping the arm in a piece of cloth. Anyway, whoever could invest the energy, time and resouces to procure a bow and arrows would certainly be able to protect oneself by some sort of arm guard. Therefore I would support the case for giving all archer units something like that.

Cute Wolf - it is NOT a "little pain" easily endured by a hardened veteran. Repeated hits by the bowstring could even sever your skin or lead to painful immflamation of sinews in the forearm. Hard skin is no protection. You need something capable to absorb the hit and disperse it onto larger area. Tough leather is perfectly sufficient for that and easily obtained.

As someone who made his own arrows and bows from childhood, and of course used it for misschief, I know what damage it might make. And it does hurt. Though I must say I usually never used arm guards, most of time it never hit me arm really. But if it did then yeah, especially after a couple of time, it hurts. And not just a little bit. So it might indeed be worth looking into. ~:)

[lobf]

Well, the M2TW character modelling system will allow some badasses like Moros to not wear them and some pussies like Sarkiss and V.T. Martin to wear them.



;)

[gamegeek2]

With a real bow, the string will hit your arm if you fire a shot correctly, or at least graze it. Arm guards are an absolute necessity for an effective force of archers.

[Antinous]

Hey I have a question. I want to restring my bow, but I don't know what would be a good material for the string. I hand carved my bow out of a branch from a birch tree. So does any one have a suggestion for what I should use.

[Macilrille]

Flax or Hemp is what our archers use in Re-enactment.

But Birch? Birch is soft, why not ash or yew as we use? Is it any good?

[Tellos Athenaios]

http://www.coldsiberia.org/monbow.htm

[Antinous]

Birch is a good material if you want a flexible bow. I can get more than 70 meters without trying to hard.

[gamegeek2]

The mongolian bow is doubtless the most powerful non-crossbow in use in the ancient/medieval world.

[Antinous]

That is certain. The composite bow was the best out there, when you get it wet the bow is usless.

[Moros]

While looking for something completely different, you sometimes bounce onto interesting stuff. Something I ran into today, not sure wether the site is thrustable. As I barely read it, but just noticed the quote and tought I'd share.


During battle, the arm holding the bow was protected from any snap by the armour that was coincidentally worn. However, no special protection was used, and no protection was used in competition, practice, or the hunt. This is because, when fired with proper technique, the bow rotated slightly and the string moved so as not to hit the bow hand. The pain of the string's snap, and the welts left, were a powerful aid in developing proper technique.

From:http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505/archery.html

If that's true that just means I'm the only proper Archer around. ~;)

[Macilrille]

Nah give me a good yew Longbow, 180 lb. Of course that is useless from horseback.


BTW, we have fired test shots against chainmail and scale armour, chainmail is less than ideal against armour-piercing arrows, scale just got dented...

[bobbin]

that made me look at the EB's current archers models. there are no arm guards there or in fact in any mod i played at all.

Actually there are a few, probably should be more though.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_archer_auxilia.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_toxotai.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_numidian_archers.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_komatai_toxotai.gif
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_indian_longbows.gif

reading from the article moros put up maybe only european and some mediterrainean archers should have bracers to reflect the differences in shooting styles between western and eastern peoples.


"In the "Mediterranean release", the method of firing originating in the Mediterranean and used throughout Europe, the bow string is pulled by two or three fingers, with the arrow resting against the string between the pointer and middle finger. The arrow is placed to the outside of the bow's body - that is, assuming the bow is held in the left hand, the arrow is to the left of the bow.

To protect the shooting fingers, the European archer wears a glove or a leather tab over the fingers. To protect the arm holding the bow from the snap of the string upon releasing, a bracer is worn, sometimes made of leather, but often, historically, made of bone, antler, or even stone.

In contrast, the Eastern archer pulls the bow string with his thumb.
There are several specific techniques, but basically, the string is held by the bent thumb, with the edge of the thumb held between pointer and middle finger. The arrow rests above the thumb. With this "Thumb release", the arrow experiences different tensions than with the "Mediterranean release", and therefore is placed to the inside of the bow - in relation to a bow held in the left hand, the arrow would be placed to the right of the bow.

[antisocialmunky]

What about something like this?

https://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6895/ballistabowfr3.png

[everyone]

that looks like a ballista.

edit: a google image search has revealed to me that:
"Nowadays, ballista-bows have been constructed."
on: http://bow__weapon.totallyexplained.com/
and it happens that the picture above is related to that page (which is how I got there through image search, because one of the first few images when you search "roman ballista" is that ballista bow thing)