I'm no Kissinger... [Archive]

A Very Super Market

01-29-2009, 07:52

My neighbors hate me. Hate hate hate hate hate me. It's insane.

I'm playing as Baktria, and I have managed to stabilize my empire and my economy, push back my enemies, and begin to push into India. Sounds good right? But my list of enemies is HUGE. Saka Rauka, Pahlava, Seulechia, Hayasdan, Ptolemaioi, Pontos, Lusotanna (???), and Makedonia. All my diplomats have 7-9 influence wreaths, and they just aren't working. Lusotanna even declared war on me when I was trying to establish trade rights!

I've nearly destroyed Saka and left them with a 10 man village deep in the steppe, and they refuse to declare a ceasefire. I could care less about them, but I think it's a bit unreasonable that they would continue to fight for so long. But what about the Seleucids? Once, they sent 2 half-stacks straight into Baktra, besieged me for 2 seasons, and then took off. Never returned. But they still won't declare a ceasefire. Pahlava just declared war on me, for no reason whatsoever, and I offered them 1000 mnai per turn for 10 turns. No luck. That is what I've been offering to all factions for ceasefires, but they still refuse. Is there some reason for this, or are my deals just bad?

My difficulty is H/M (I know, I'm a wuss :P)

a completely inoffensive name

01-29-2009, 08:04

AI is horrible for RTW in all versions and expansions. Role play (which is what vast majority do) or just destroy them all, or look for minimods and such to improve AI behavior and start over after installing them.

everyone

01-29-2009, 08:04

well the RTW AI is rather retarded. here is an example:
https://i246.photobucket.com/albums/gg90/greatkuningaz/deaddiplomat1.jpg
There should be an option to execute such diplomats
and they won't accept a ceasefire even when I'm sieging their last settlement later on.
you should try the Force Diplomacy minimod to force some sense into the AI: http://files.filefront.com/ForceDiplomacyForEB12zip/;12518309;/fileinfo.html/1/1

Megas Methuselah

01-29-2009, 08:17

Yes, the force diplomacy mod is truly the only option you have here. That, or take it very slowly and don't do anything to anger your neighbours in the slightest. Also, if you want a lasting peace, offer a tribute, around 100-500 denarii a turn.

Βελισάριος

01-29-2009, 09:29

That, or you systematically exterminate them. All of them. To the last. With no exception.

Seriously. Diplomacy in RTW is a waste of time. I never bother to recruit diplomats. I send the one I start with to establish trade rights with any faction I can find and then I start picking them off the map one by one.

The only type of diplomacy that ever works is at the tip of the sword.

SwissBarbar

01-29-2009, 09:50

Elmetiacos

01-29-2009, 13:15

Yes, this sounds like a typical Bactrian game to me. Apart from having the Lusitanians declare war on you - that's just weird. Better not talk to the Casse.

Βελισάριος

01-29-2009, 14:02

Remember what I said about diplomacy? I take it back...

Just after I posted that I started a new Getai campaign and not only did I sign an alliance with Makedonia... but I got cca. 30.000 Mnai by "selling" support in attacking various factions... to everyone in the Hellenic Peninsula! I offered to aid Epeiros in attacking the Greeks, and then the Greeks paid me to attack Epeiros.
And can you believe that the Koinon paid 1700 for me to give support in attacking... (drumroll) Baktria? Well, they did. I'll be a Persian's uncle...
I guess nobody likes the Baktrians.

And this was in Hard campaign difficulty. I guess the AI is a bit more... reasonable that way.

SwissBarbar

01-29-2009, 14:40

Yeah, the Baktrians - no one likes them ^^

The AI-Stupidity can be outmached by wisely used Force Diplomacy and role play. You just have to be realistic, and not using FD only for your advantage.

Dayve

01-29-2009, 15:13

It's just the AI being their usual dumb self. I have the same problem in my Baktria game. I got ceasefire and trade rights with Saka early on and i sided with the Seleukids when they went to war with the Pahlava, but a couple of turns later they started spamming half stacks of junk at Baktra itself, constantly getting nothing but crushing defeats at the hands of my unreasonable and unfair amounts of slingers on the walls.

Saka and Pahlava won't leave those two cities alone just north of the big mountain range, the one with Alexanders furthest altars and the one just west of it. Constantly laying siege with large armies of scary cataphracts and family members, but they are always beaten back by mere Parthian spearmen. Problem is, i'm fighting so many battles in those towns to defend them that they are beginning to run out of population for me to retrain my spearmen defending them.

You may want to try the force diplomacy mod... you can force the AI to accept your proposals. It works with money too, but they can only give you what they have. Like if you demand 50k and they have 60k, they will give, but if you demand 50k and they have 40k they will refuse.

Problem is, you can't make them honour their word. They WILL betray you the very next turn, so it's kinda pointless. Best way to play the game is simply pretend diplomacy isn't even a feature, just keep on fighting, because the AI will never accept ceasefires if you share a border with them, never.

Here's to hoping Empire: Total War will have a decent AI on and off the battlefield. ~:cheers:

Joszen1

01-29-2009, 15:24

I remember reading somewhere that an AI faction's hostility to your diplomat was calculated using an algorithm that include a modifier for what faction you were in vanilla. So, for example Macedonians were natural rivals to the Greek cities, but friendlier with others. I don't know if the exact influence of this was worked out. But, maybe the underlying vanilla faction for Baktria was really hated (like SPQR possibly). Even on H not everyone should be declaring war on sight, especially not randoms like Luso (who rock by the way). But then again, this is just conjecture.

Ibn-Khaldun

01-29-2009, 15:26

Yeah, the Baktrians - no one likes them ^^

The AI-Stupidity can be outmached by wisely used Force Diplomacy and role play. You just have to be realistic, and not using FD only for your advantage.

And even FD can not help you all the time. In my Romani campaign Lusotanan and Carthage were allies. And when ever one of them declared war on me another one joined this war.
It's a bit stupid to start a war when you have only 2-3 settlements left and your enemy can easily wield 2-3 armies against your crappy halfstack! But AI do that! :wall:

SwissBarbar

01-29-2009, 16:13

hope never dies, you know ;-)

Βελισάριος

01-29-2009, 16:23

Actually, hope dies last. But eventually it too will go.

A Very Super Market

01-29-2009, 17:22

An update:
I've somehow convinced the Seleukids to attack Pahlava, and both their armies are now busy fighting each other. I haven't fought any battles against them at all, but still no ceasefire.

So do I need to restart my campaign for the FD mod?

Mediolanicus

01-29-2009, 18:13

So do I need to restart my campaign for the FD mod?

No, of course not.

Tiberius Claudius Marcellus

01-29-2009, 21:40

Ibrahim

01-29-2009, 21:58

Actually, I beg to differ: while its true that the dumbest bacterium is far smarter than the AI (estimated at 1E27x), diplomacy is not totally useless. as Burebista said, you can always make trade rights and profits. you can also play the AI factions against one another, so they kill each other, and not you. this takes skill, and a bit of luck as well (doesn't always work).

I can even cite my ROP campaign, playing as Makedonia: I approached the Athenaioi, gave them money, offered trade rights, maps, and an alliance, and told them to attack Sparta. they did (helped that they needed the 10,000). then I sent the same diplomat, and told the spartans to do the exact same, except this time attack Athenai. they also accepted (they needed only 5000, and then 500 in tribute). soon, they were besieging one another, never mind that their diplomacy rosters showed that I was allied to both, and that I sent no armies (I agreed to help both). the war lasted 10 turns (2.5 years in ROP), by which time their armies were spread thinly, and badly depleted. I "intervened" to halt the bloodshed, claiming to bring peace...

instead I swallowed the Athenaioi in 1 turn, the spartans in 3.:laugh4::laugh4::laugh4:

NOTE: no forced diplomacy was used. this was also on the RTW engine. I did NOT use the money script-I made a huge profit off those mines I built.:yes:

Βελισάριος

01-30-2009, 00:04

SwebozGaztiz

01-30-2009, 01:39

Well unfortunately i think most of the people posting here are right the diplomacy system used on the rtw engine is really useless, this happened to me with my Ptolie campaign the AS where reduced to one settlement deep in the mountains near the sakas, i offered them a ceasefire, you know just for roleplaying purposes, since i was having a war against Carthage, but they refused well i mean this is not the only case, like one of the guys said before the best diplomacy is to wipe them out completely thats the only way the will stop attacking you, its really rare whem the AI accepts a ceasefire and when they do the very next turn they will siege the first city theyre able to, so i have played a lot of campaigns as Baktria and the only way you can stop all those annoying AS half-stacks from invading is by taking all their territories believe me its the only way, in the same Ptolie campaign im currently running i tried to stop attacking them you know, i wanted peace for a couple of years, and i tried this after taking Seleukeia and Babylon but they would keep on sending armies, some where really good some where only rabble, so honestly the AS is like a rabid dog the only way to stop it is by killing it!:oops::smash:, anyways the Baktrian campaign is one of the best in my opinion in the game hope you can enjoy it!

Leviathan DarklyCute

01-30-2009, 02:04

Use Alexander for challenge.
Disregard that, I like you. Come to my house and [watch the rainbow].

A Very Super Market

01-30-2009, 02:19

Umm.. okay...

What is this "Alexander" I should use? I don't care if it makes the AI tougher, but does it make them more reasonable?

Leviathan DarklyCute

01-30-2009, 02:29

The Alexander expansion. You know, RTW-ALX.exe

Megas Methuselah

01-30-2009, 04:47

Ibrahim, what's ROP? :inquisitive:

Use Alexander for challenge.
Disregard that, I like you. Come to my house and **** my sister.

*perks up* I'll disregard Alexander!

antisocialmunky

01-30-2009, 05:27

The way the TW AI works seems to work is with each faction having a 'like' counter to every other faction. At the game start they are initiated at zero. That's why you can declare peace so easily at the begining of the game. All diplomatic patterns for the game will probably be made in the first 20 or so years. After that everything is locked in pretty much. If you expand slowly, reasonable, and are quick to make alliances, you will probably have atleast some friends.

I've even had them gift me a few hundred mnai. I've also borrowed 10000 mnai from the Romans once.

Megas Methuselah

01-30-2009, 05:54

Basically, you should just send your diplomats around making gifts and alliances and staying non-aggressive for the first few decades? That really isn't too bad.

antisocialmunky

01-30-2009, 06:00

Yeah, pretty much.

lenin96

01-30-2009, 06:40

Oh, and... what's ROP?

Ibrahim, what's ROP? :inquisitive:

Rise of Persia, it's a mod for RTW set around the rise of the Achaemenids by Cyrus the great, here's a link (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=&f=65).

It's a good mod and rather historicaly accurate compared to most mods (but not as much as EB).

Dayve

01-30-2009, 18:20

I stayed completely unagressive for the first decade as Baktria, didn't even attack rebels, just built up the city of Baktra. Then Seleukia, Pahlava and Saka all got pissed off at me for no reason and haven't stopped laying siege to Baktra ever since.

Shigawire

01-30-2009, 23:11

A good reminder for why I'm holding off playing EB again until EB2. :clown:

I know, not terribly Politically Correct to say it when I'm an EB member. :no:

Aper

01-31-2009, 15:05

Here's to hoping Empire: Total War will have a decent AI on and off the battlefield. ~:cheers:

You don't need to wait for Empire, M2:TW AI is moddable, both strategical and tactical, some modders like Lusted achieved amazing results in their mods.

So we can expect the EB2 AI to be great as the rest of the game :2thumbsup:

Ibrahim

01-31-2009, 23:39

Nicely done Ibrahim. I salute your diplomatic prowess!
Two questions for you I have:
1.) What difficulty was this campaign in?

and

2.) Did you just demand "Attack faction: whatever"?

Oh, and... what's ROP?
(so that's three questions, sue me!)

1-hard campaign

2-yes I did. that's actually the hardest part of the whole process.

3-ROP=rise of persia. its in the TWcenter. EDIT: oh, Lenin beat me to that one.