View Full Version : Debate: - British jobs for British workers.
InsaneApache
02-01-2009, 11:14
As no one has started a post on the direct action at the oil refineries and power plants, I will.
It seems that our Great Leaders' populist chant of British jobs for British workers has come around to bite him on the bum.
Rawnsley nails him in the Observer today...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/feb/01/davos-gordon-brown
Brown was deliberately being disingenuous when he ripped off the slogan from the BNP. He knows that our membership of the EU doesn't allow the UK government, or any other EU government come to that, to stop workers from the EU working anywhere they want within Europe. Unfortunatley a lot of people either don't know that or took Brown at his word. So now we have a situation that is spreading spontaneously across Britain, where folks are demanding that Brown follow up on his mantra. He can't. When the penny drops and the mob calls his bluff, I predict trouble.
So, has Brown inadvertently handed over a propaganda coup to the far right? He's already as popular as a fart in a spacesuit and this will not do him or Liebour any good. In fact I can see no good to come out of this at all.
rasoforos
02-01-2009, 11:29
Quite precious...
Politicians so often rely on their voters' economic illiteracy...it is divine justice when it comes back and bites 'em in the bum.
rory_20_uk
02-01-2009, 12:23
I would be very interested to know why getting foreign workers was more efficient - the pound is collapsing, yet paying foreigners in Euros is still cheaper!!!
This country needs to get a lot more efficient. Sacking droves of the civil service and reducing the taxes on industry and individuals that pay for them would be the right idea.
~:smoking:
I would be very interested to know why getting foreign workers was more efficient
No trouble with the unions would be my guess.
KukriKhan
02-01-2009, 12:55
This crisis shakes together a flammable cocktail of emotions: fear, resentment and anger. Fear for your job if you still have one and fear that you may not see work again if you are already unemployed. Resentment that the agony is not being evenly shared and that some will profit from the miseries of others. Anger with the unapologetic financiers who made billions from their follies and left less affluent folk to pick up the bill.
That paragraph, meant to describe UK reaction to the econ squeeze, also perfectly describes the blue-collar level in the US, which only gets whispered about on the street, and never covered by our press.
Banquo's Ghost
02-01-2009, 15:15
It was always a fat-headed and dangerous sentiment to be broadcast abroad. In retrospect, that was the speech which revealed Brown to be an unprincipled coward - proven beyond doubt when he bottled out of the trailed election just after. In this precise instance however, I was under the impression that the real cause of concern was not European workers per se but the allegation that the contractors were actively refusing to hire any British workers, in clear contravention of EU law.
The most worrying thing however, is not that the cabinet is out of its collective depth and resembles naught so much as a flock of starlings chasing after the evening gnats. Not even that the BNP continues to profit from such idiocy, as one can trust the natural tendency of the majority of the British to avoid extremism.
No, it seems to me that the biggest danger is a still unformed and principle-less Conservative Party. If New Labour confuses with its Big Idea of the Day, Every Today* (BIDET) initiatives, the Tories seem paralysed in the headlights. They gainsay, but offer only fantasy, if anything. George Osbourne (who one would think should be in his element, Chancellor-in-waiting with no actual responsibility to burden) is mute, directionless and seen so rarely that twitchers claim a sighting as a ten-pointer. The Opposition should be crucifying the government, and yet they seem to be content to wait, rather than lead. The last time a Labour government sold the country into slavery and despair, there was Mrs Thatcher. Say what you might about her, no-one could accuse her of lacking principles or leadership, nor of shirking from saying what she believed was right for the country. And the UK was, in the main, grateful.
I'm aware this is modern day politics to a tee, and that whipping out one's principles in public is considered akin to child abuse. Nonetheless, given eleven years of the least principled bunch of shysters in UK history, one might think the electorate keen to find someone who wanted power for more than its own sake.
Depressingly, parties like the BNP are likely to fill that gap more and more often, as they most certainly want power to do something.
(As an aside, friends within the Mother of Parliaments have whispered that the Prime Minister has been found, more than once, weeping in a side room. Given the rumours about his mental health last year, this may be no more than scurrilous gossip, but it is disturbing - and not something the papers are likely to break).
The Today programme (early mornings BBC Radio 4) is the lynchpin of British political life and where many brilliant musings of the Glorious Leader are announced to a Grateful People.
rory_20_uk
02-01-2009, 15:16
No trouble with the unions would be my guess.
That would also be my guess. But since I detest what the unions are - and not what they should be doing (the terms are almost mutually exclusive) I try not to let my kneejerk reaction potentially blind me to other causes of bringing people several thousand miles to do a job that the locals could in theory do.
If blue collar workers and jobs were doing oh so well, then they'd take a hit from the recent economic events - but in many cases they've been struggling to survive the last decade. The good times have helped paper over the cracks. Now the good times are over we've got to face it that what should be the dependable bedrock is overpriced, if not downright inefficient.
Here the government is taking on more and more to do non-jobs or retrain (for what? more middle managers? They have to manage something!)
The problem is from the schools up. Pupils are taught to be creative. That's fine. BUT one's job isn't going to be creative. It's going to be 8-12 hours a day of almost mind numbing drudgery for the most part be that a factor worker, a lawyer or a doctor. OK, so in the last two cases there are the occasional times when one thinks "Wow!", but there are far more coughs, colds or bog standard divorce divorce settlements.
So recognise this fact. Your boss may be a twerp. Deal with it. most shouldn't go to uni, as there's no point. Train on the job - possibly via uni courses.
Here in the UK Indian immigrants are known to do well. Why? No Magic. They came here, worked their bollocks off for 12 or more hours a day for 6 or more days a week so their kids could do better. Their kids often because of this and work damn hard too. That's why for example whites are a minority in medicine.
~:smoking:
rasoforos
02-01-2009, 15:49
Here in the UK Indian immigrants are known to do well. Why? No Magic. They came here, worked their bollocks off for 12 or more hours a day for 6 or more days a week so their kids could do better. Their kids often because of this and work damn hard too. That's why for example whites are a minority in medicine.
~:smoking:
I think it is a widespread phenomenon in Europe.
Most of my manual employees are foreign. It is a laborious job but it pays very well and they are paid very well. Local boys though prefer to stay unemployed and have their mommy feed em than work 6 times a week and overtime, even if they could make money that they can only dream of in an office job.
They will indeed be able to provide a better quality of life and education for their children than your Greek average joe who hasn't worked well into his thirties.
Seamus Fermanagh
02-01-2009, 15:58
Banquo:
Are you suggesting that New Labour's BIDET program is a....washout?
:devilish:
InsaneApache
02-01-2009, 16:12
Blimey, I find myself agreeing with BG yet again. I could be an honourary social democrat. Perhaps not. :whip:
Nail hit firmly on head. :smash:
seireikhaan
02-01-2009, 16:23
Out of curiosity, when are the next British elections? I keep getting this vibe that Brown might not be awesomely well liked(by anyone).
I think it is a widespread phenomenon in Europe.
Not here. Immigrants (minus the Polish) are very poor workers.
Banquo's Ghost
02-01-2009, 16:29
Out of curiosity, when are the next British elections?
The general election has to be held by 3rd June 2010 at the latest. It could of course, be any time before that.
InsaneApache
02-01-2009, 16:40
Unless the rumours become true about Brown invoking the Civil Contingencies Act. Then there would really be trouble.
rasoforos
02-01-2009, 16:52
Not here. Immigrants (minus the Polish) are very poor workers.
Fragony I like you very much...
...but...
...lets face it...
...you are not the most objective judge when it comes to foreigners!
Have a beer instead :medievalcheers:
Not here. Immigrants (minus the Polish) are very poor workers.
It's all the special cafes that are distracting them. :wink2:
...you are not the most objective judge when it comes to foreigners!
Over 5 years of experience in recruiting I recruited every flavour, for a while. Maybe Greeks are really really really poor workers. Poles, excellent, southern folks can't handle the pace here they burn up too fast.
Unless the rumours become true about Brown invoking the Civil Contingencies Act. Then there would really be trouble.
Christ. Why? Hardly a reassuring move.
InsaneApache
02-01-2009, 17:33
Christ. Why? Hardly a reassuring move.
It does away with those annoying things that stop him getting on with the job. You know, elections.
It does away with those annoying things that stop him getting on with the job. You know, elections.
I wasn't aware that the emergency measures it put in place bypassed elections. And don't the emergency powers only last 21 days, and any lengthening of that require parliamentary consent?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Contingencies_Act_2004
:dizzy2:
That, is really freaky.
InsaneApache
02-01-2009, 18:34
I wasn't aware that the emergency measures it put in place bypassed elections. And don't the emergency powers only last 21 days, and any lengthening of that require parliamentary consent?
There was an attempt by Conservative and Liberal Democrat peers to add a number of other key constitutional laws to the exemption list during the Bill stage, but this was unsuccessful. The laws they tried to protect from emergency regulation were:
Habeas Corpus Act 1679
Bill of Rights 1689
The clause in the Parliament Act 1911 which limits the duration of a Parliament to five years, which was in itself a partial reversal of the term's increase provided in the Septennial Act 1715 from three to seven years
Act of Settlement 1700
House of Commons Disqualification Act 1975
Life Peerages Act 1958
House of Lords Act 1999 1
Say no more.
HoreTore
02-01-2009, 18:49
Not here. Immigrants (minus the Polish) are very poor workers.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...
Lay off the nosecandy in the future, Frags ~;)
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight...
Lay off the nosecandy in the future, Frags ~;)
Are you a recruiter or are you a postman? Because if I remember correctly you are a postman and not a recruiter.
Strike For The South
02-01-2009, 19:23
Immigrant Worker work no harder or no less hard than the natives. I have seen some pretty hard working immigrants and I've also seen some jerk off into a rubber looking at dirty snuff.
Simply because you work ALLOT does not mean you work HARD. People seem to get the two confused. I don't want to work construction because my job pays better but you see I have the nice valid social security number and Texas drivers license.
If you like immigration thats fine but don't kid yourself into thinking that they are here to serve your decadent populace. The next generation will be just as "lazy"
HoreTore
02-01-2009, 19:58
Are you a recruiter or are you a postman? Because if I remember correctly you are a postman and not a recruiter.
Then your memory is way off.
(Sigurd is the one here who has worked as a postman as far as I know...)
Then your memory is way off.
No, it isn't. Maybe you aren't a postman anymore and are now a recruiter, my memory is just fine and you said you were a postman.
HoreTore
02-01-2009, 20:11
No, it isn't. Maybe you aren't a postman anymore and are now a recruiter, my memory is just fine and you said you were a postman.
Why on earth would I say I'm a postman when I'm not and never has been?
No wait, I did work at a mail terminal shuffling packages for 2 weeks when I was 15... But I sincerely doubt I've ever brought it up here...
KukriKhan
02-01-2009, 22:31
You guys make postman sound like a bad job.
https://jimcee.homestead.com/bitePosty.jpg
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
02-01-2009, 23:54
Unless the rumours become true about Brown invoking the Civil Contingencies Act. Then there would really be trouble.
I looked that up, he might be able to do it if the ecenomic toilet is flushed.
:help:
Furunculus
02-02-2009, 00:26
My biased opinion is that the poles are an excellent bunch as far as work goes, but then they come here to work, not to live.
I have no problems with the free movement of goods capital and labour within the EU, either we reinforce our competitive advantage at innovation or we become just another middling country.
Tribesman
02-02-2009, 09:41
No trouble with the unions would be my guess.
Since much of this protest is about the exclusion of local workers from construction projects and in the construction industry in Britain the union representation is pretty much non existant I doubt that union trouble can have been an issue .
rory_20_uk
02-02-2009, 13:38
Since much of this protest is about the exclusion of local workers from construction projects and in the construction industry in Britain the union representation is pretty much non existant I doubt that union trouble can have been an issue .
Good point. So what is it then that makes hiring British workers such a poor economic option?
~:smoking:
Tribesman
02-02-2009, 14:06
So what is it then that makes hiring British workers such a poor economic option?
Well from the employers standpoint its a hell of a lot easier to rip off people who ain't local .
Seamus Fermanagh
02-02-2009, 14:08
Well from the employers standpoint its a hell of a lot easier to rip off people who ain't local .
You are just such a pollyanna Tribes......~;)
InsaneApache
02-02-2009, 15:00
What's all this I hear about sparks being recruited in Belfast and the job description insist that they must speak Portuguese?
Not much call for 'esta biem fax favour' down the Falls Road I would have thought. :laugh4:
African resources for the African companies would be a nice motto as well. It's really the same situation. It can't be done.
What's all this I hear about sparks being recruited in Belfast and the job description insist that they must speak Portuguese?
Not much call for 'esta biem fax favour' down the Falls Road I would have thought. :laugh4:
I don't see what's the problem. We Portuguese have a superior language (Scientifically proven) and therefore reserve ourselves the right to hire only people who speak the perfect language. :)
Anyways, I don't see you having a problem when people in China have to speak English to get certain jobs.
HoreTore
02-02-2009, 19:55
African resources for the African companies would be a nice motto as well. It's really the same situation. It can't be done.
HAH! Nice one!
I'd sure love to see that slogan from a nationalist party!
HoreTore
02-02-2009, 20:13
Well from the employers standpoint its a hell of a lot easier to rip off people who ain't local .
Indeed. Foreign workers have no or very little knowledge of our laws(surprise, surprise), which means that they're very unlikely to cause trouble should you want to lower their pay below what you're required to pay, withhold vacation money, unlawful overtime, etc etc.
A common method used by crooks here, is to have two work contracts; one to show the authorities, written in Norwegian so that the employee doesn't know what it is, and one written in the employee's language that they show to the employee. Do I have to specify which contract is the closest to slave labour?
Crazed Rabbit
02-02-2009, 20:51
A common method used by crooks here, is to have two work contracts; one to show the authorities, written in Norwegian so that the employee doesn't know what it is, and one written in the employee's language that they show to the employee. Do I have to specify which contract is the closest to slave labour?
The Norwegian one? :sweatdrop:
Seriously, its nice to see such an economically stupid, populist statement come back and bite a politician in the ***.
This is one reason we should encourage immigrants who speak the native language.
CR
HoreTore
02-02-2009, 21:01
This is one reason we should encourage immigrants who speak the native language.
One of the first things we should do when an immigrant gets off a plane/bus/trailer/trunk of car/boat/whatever, is to teach them their rights.
Tribesman
02-02-2009, 21:16
What's all this I hear about sparks being recruited in Belfast and the job description insist that they must speak Portuguese?
Thats the attempt to get the Brazilian sparks back to england , they moved to Belfast because they heard it doesn't have tube trains .
InsaneApache
02-02-2009, 21:16
One of the first things we should do when an immigrant gets off a plane/bus/trailer/trunk of car/boat/whatever, is to teach them their rights.
Bloody hell. :no:
rory_20_uk
02-02-2009, 21:23
That's fine - as long as they don't have many.
Work as a maid in Dubai and if you're caught working for someone you're not contracted to work for, that's it - you're deported. Nice and clear rules, eh?
~:smoking:
Papewaio
02-02-2009, 21:36
One of the first things we should do when an immigrant gets off a plane/bus/trailer/trunk of car/boat/whatever, is to teach them their rights.
Bloody hell. :no:
Think about it.
If all workers in a country know they are entitled to the same basic rights be they local or immigrant. That they know what the basic wages are and their entitlements. Then it would be a lot harder for dodgy companies to get away with hiring workers and employing them less then what is legal. It would make local employees more competitive.
Anyhow this has been a long time coming for the UK landlubbers... look what happened to the Merchant Fleet... that is a taste of what is to come. Hope you like your power plants Exxon style. :oops:
HoreTore
02-03-2009, 07:38
Think about it.
If all workers in a country know they are entitled to the same basic rights be they local or immigrant. That they know what the basic wages are and their entitlements. Then it would be a lot harder for dodgy companies to get away with hiring workers and employing them less then what is legal. It would make local employees more competitive.
It wouldn't just be a benefit to local employees. It would also be a huge boost for those employers who are not crooks. How fun is it to lose a bid because your competitor can lower his costs by stealing from his employees? How much better isn't it for all of us when we're playing by the same rules? Isn't that kind of a cornerstone of capitalism?
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