Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition [Archive] - Page 2

heldelance

03-01-2009, 15:10

People that complain that hoplites die fast with guard mode, learn to use it right. Hoplites need guard mode on when the enemy charges and you keep it on only while the enemy is on the front face of the hoplites. Once they start surrounding the hoplites (or when hoplites are fighting more than 1 unit) then you run into problems if you leave guard mode on. Guard mode means they'll fight in a line and try to keep the line solid at all costs. This means they don't break formation which works against them once the enemy surrounds them, once the enemy kind of gets to their flanks, disable guard mode, they'll survive much longer since they're not a static line anymore.

Just realized this while fighting the Seleukids around Pontos, Levy Hoplites are amazingly good (for their level and price) if you have a unit like the Gaesatae around, anything with a morale boosting and killing effect. I found that with that unit behind the Levies, they held as long as normal hoplites without morale boosting units.

Phalanx300

03-01-2009, 16:05

Anti, short_pike from ROP makes it to extreme, changing density would be better.

Heldelance, guard mode makes you units fight worse, even at a solid front(Hoplites are a attacking force, letting them stand still isn't a Hoplite Phalanx, and that is the only use of Guard Mode). I tested all possible ways for Hoplites and I must say that changing the density is the most accurate solution.

Zett

03-01-2009, 16:54

I must say that changing the density is the most accurate solution.

Also, in EB I really get the feeling that Hoplites are underpowered, maybe doing something with them for this tourney would be better. Like the 0.2 density?

But not to 0.2, that is overkill. I onced use diffrent densities for Hoplites too and all 0.2 units were nearly unstobable on the field. For example, an unit of Thorakitai Hoplitai with 0.2 slaughtered an unit of Pedites Extraordinarii 1 vs. 1 with no problems. Even classical Hoplitai with 0.23 where able to beat them 1 vs. 1.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

Phalanx300

03-01-2009, 17:38

Then again, you shouldn't try to beat them from the front, you can more easilly outflank them and on large battles they still tend to rout when their line is outflanked. Yet from the front it's impossible with loose order infantry to beat Hoplites, except with Phalangites or other Hoplites. Which is historical looking at Hoplite warfare.

desert

03-01-2009, 21:52

Technically the first 3 ranks stab at the enemy.

And sometimes hoplites did in fact just form a static line instead of charging their enemies.

Apparently, if a phalanx poised its shields on the ground and huddled against them while raising their spears at an angle(sort of like in this picture) https://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr309/desertSypglass/roman_polybian_triarii.gif, then they were immovable (:wall::skull:).

Βελισάριος

03-01-2009, 22:13

I can personally vouch for the Hoplitai. In guard mode they're nigh indestructable. They even held out better than my Pezhetairoi units, as Anti can tell you.

But I have to agree, when it comes to attacking they fail miserably. I'd go for the 0.2 density which sounds fairly accurate to me. But I fear it may be overpowering them too. They're good, but it's not an army of Achilles we're taling about here.

Also, not surprisingly, but damn good:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/makedonia/mak_pheraspidai.gif
My new favourite unit.

And... the unit of my Strategos nightmares:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/arche-seleukeia/seleukid_hellenikoi_kataphraktoi.gif
These buggers'll cut through infantry like a knife through warm butter... but if a cavarly unit so much as shakes a spear at them they start running like armoured bunnies.
Hate 'em to death...

antisocialmunky

03-01-2009, 22:29

Does anyone know why they are really crap in horse to horse?

Zett

03-01-2009, 23:23

Yet from the front it's impossible with loose order infantry to beat Hoplites, except with Phalangites or other Hoplites.

But heavy assault infantery should be able to do so. So even Thorakitai Hoplitai should take heavy causalties if attacked by Pedites Extraordinarii (IMO and I say that as a Romani-hater). And with 0.2 it doesn't matter if you flanke them or not, they will just hold their position and kill everything. I think 0.3 - 0.25 - 0.23 (levy/semi* - classicals - elites) is ok, but you have to change some stats or the unitcosts/upkeep to rebalance the game. *With "semi" I mean for example Massaliotai Hoplitai.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

heldelance

03-02-2009, 01:34

The defend mode on hoplites seem to work for both defense and offense from what I've seen when I paid closer attention to it. If you turn guard on and charge, they try to maintain the line and more of the units actually hit the enemy which I would guess would lead to lower casualties on your side and greater on theirs. When defending, guard mode turns them into a solid wall making it hard for the enemy to break your formation. Keep in mind though that when they do break your formation, and the will, guard mode needs to be turned off so that the hoplites are looser. You can tell if they break your formation if the hoplites start changing the facing of their line which usually makes them vulnerable to flank attacks.

Mooks

03-02-2009, 04:38

Thracian calvary (The mercenaries) are pretty damn good. Against calvary, against infantry, and for chasing down skirmishers. Its surprising that the description is pretty much spot on.

Phalanx300

03-02-2009, 14:53

Hoplites on guard mode on the offensive are very bad, their entire unit get decimated with only a few enemy dead.

I can personally vouch for the Hoplitai. In guard mode they're nigh indestructable. They even held out better than my Pezhetairoi units, as Anti can tell you.

But I have to agree, when it comes to attacking they fail miserably. I'd go for the 0.2 density which sounds fairly accurate to me. But I fear it may be overpowering them too. They're good, but it's not an army of Achilles we're taling about here.

Well yeah, but holding out wasn't their puspose, it was destroying the enemy, it wasn't about pinning as it is with the Phalangites.

I just think that they should definately perform better, right now it could just make people think why the Greeks even bothered to fight as Hoplites..:whip:

But heavy assault infantery should be able to do so. So even Thorakitai Hoplitai should take heavy causalties if attacked by Pedites Extraordinarii (IMO and I say that as a Romani-hater). And with 0.2 it doesn't matter if you flanke them or not, they will just hold their position and kill everything. I think 0.3 - 0.25 - 0.23 (levy/semi* - classicals - elites) is ok, but you have to change some stats or the unitcosts/upkeep to rebalance the game. *With "semi" I mean for example Massaliotai Hoplitai.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

I definately don't think that they should be able to be beaten by the front, I can't think of a case where such a thing ever happened. Except at Marathon but there they made a smaller frontline on purpose. If you look at the Thorakitai Hoplitai unit card you'll see that it were those units who broke the Roman right flank in the battle of Corinth.

And about those semi units, I'm wondering why you put them in the levy group? All Hoplites had swords, these semi ones just were known to put great use to them(which is why they have swords), putting them to classical at the least would be better. For Hypaspitai elite would fit more.

antisocialmunky

03-02-2009, 15:02

I wonder if missiles would disrupt thier formation more if we did that.

Also, I believe that a lot of the 'mixed' culture hoplites fought a little looser or atleast that's what the descriptions say.

Phalanx300

03-02-2009, 15:24

The only one I know of are the Syracusians, which also have longer spears(I gues only they should have the way to long spears that many Hoplites have). As far as I know they were the only ones(in EB).

Zett

03-02-2009, 16:35

About the "semi", just another prove, that English is not my first language.:oops: I meant 'mixed' culture Hoplites, how antisocialmunky already said. And IMO they should fight in a looser formation. That would be Syrakosioi, Massaliotai, Triarii (even if they are elites), and perhaps the Indogreek Hoplites (even if they are elites too). About the Hypaspistai, it's true that their unitdescription says, that they fought as Hoplitai, but in game, you use them more as a assault infantery and not as a lineholding phalanx. I think that at the moment a Hoplitai decides to switch to sword, he stops fighting in the phalanx, ergo he shoudn't get the low density. (I have no sources to prove it, it's just my opinion.)

I just think that they should definately perform better, right now it could just make people think why the Greeks even bothered to fight as Hoplites..:whip:

I agree with you, they should. But giving them a too low density, especially if they have swords, makes them too powerful.

Perhaps we should make a new thread about that topic?

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

Phalanx300

03-02-2009, 17:40

About the "semi", just another prove, that English is not my first language.:oops: I meant 'mixed' culture Hoplites, how antisocialmunky already said. And IMO they should fight in a looser formation. That would be Syrakosioi, Massaliotai, Triarii (even if they are elites), and perhaps the Indogreek Hoplites (even if they are elites too). About the Hypaspistai, it's true that their unitdescription says, that they fought as Hoplitai, but in game, you use them more as a assault infantery and not as a lineholding phalanx. I think that at the moment a Hoplitai decides to switch to sword, he stops fighting in the phalanx, ergo he shoudn't get the low density. (I have no sources to prove it, it's just my opinion.)

I only support that for the Syrakosioi, there is not really evidence as far as I'm aware that the others fought in a looser formation then the usual Hoplite Phalanx. And for Hypaspistai, I would say to give them 0.23 as well, I care more for the Historical accuracy then how they are usually used ingame. The Macedonian assault infantry should by now be the Peltastai Makedonikoi, there is a reason that they came to be:2thumbsup:.

machinor

03-02-2009, 18:03

(I have no sources to prove it, it's just my opinion.)
Do you notice where the flaw in your argumentation is?! ~;)

ziegenpeter

03-02-2009, 19:26

Phalanx300

03-02-2009, 19:42

The density even regard Sweboz units, but yeah thats in another tread.

The Sweboz is one of my favorite factions, those Pikemen are great. Their spearmen and swordsmen were also able to form a shieldwall. :2thumbsup:

The only bad thing about the Sweboz units is their weakness for missles, they will drop like flies when faced with missles. (or at least my cherusci units did when faced with cretans in multiplayer)

Fabio Scevola

03-02-2009, 19:51

He dislikes the "dirty" look of them, if i got him right.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epi_illyrian_pirate.gif[IMG]

Those Illirian are surprisingly good, specially bacuase of being "levies". Almost like celtic axemen but just level 1 regional MIC, good defence/armor (better than gaeros), available almost to every faction and decent recruitment area.:2thumbsup:
No misile is their only downside.

ziegenpeter

03-02-2009, 19:52

Well yeah, the sweboz are somehow the developing nation of EB and therefore they have very few armored troops.

anubis88

03-02-2009, 20:21

Could you please make your conversation about the density of hoplite units somewhere else?
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_speutagardaz.gif
The Hellenes of the sweboz. They are actually very strong as line infantery and I once had 2 of them holding back an entire army trying to fall in my back while I was rushing to an Aedui town center.

This guys are really tough... I had a huge battle against the Sweboz as the aedui, i had 2300 men, while they had 3500 with 3 units of these... The battle was long but thanks to my uber faction leader who led the army i won quite convincigly, since none of my units routed... I thought i already won the battle when i routed most of the enemy army, and let my units chase them... Suddenly i saw that 2 units of these pikemen performed a last stadn, an killed many, many of my gaelaiche...

By the time i got reinforcments that were around the map, these pikemen killed almost my entire right flank, and it took a charge of my general plus fresh solduros to make them rout...

I will never underestimate them again:yes:

Aemilius Paulus

03-02-2009, 20:36

That is odd, I always slaughtered those pikemen with ease. They are slightly tougher, but their armour is nothing special. Average-Good, according to my classifications. Too bad they do not have the pike phalanx formation, as for now they are weaker than they were, or at least not as realistic IMHO, as their pikes do nothing to hold back anyone. My units just passed through them.

The real Sweboz miracle are these chaps:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_slaganz.gif
Before them, I never thought the AP attribute was so strong, save for the slingers. These warriors caused the most casualties among my elite stacks that blitzed Germania in four turns, despite them having the strongest AI army in my campaign. They were VERY surprisingly good, much more effective than any axemen I have encountered, despite having much lower armour. Perhaps higher lethality, although in real battles, clubs were not as effective as a small axe or a gladius. The club requires too much room and strength to swing, while a shortsword and a large shield would be the most effective IMHO.

jhhowell

03-14-2009, 01:46

A comment on the Maure infantry (see p.3 for their previous mention in this thread). I noticed them tearing a big chunk out of my Polybian Principes one on one, which surprised the heck out of me since in a previous battle a Principe maniple scored a 724 to 30 kill ratio against basically every other North African unit, and I'd figured the Maure would fare no better. They lost, of course, but taking 50-odd Romans with them was unexpected.

Turns out the Maure have Celtic longswords (0.225 lethality). The unit description makes no mention of such a thing, so I wonder if that's correct, or if they're supposed to have normal 0.1-0.13 lethality swords and someone forgot to edit the EDU? If the 0.225 lethality is correct, then Maure are a hidden gem of a flanker unit!

Rilder

03-14-2009, 03:02

https://img15.imageshack.us/img15/5774/elebruttianinf.gif
Pezoi Brettioi (Bruttian Infantry)

I tried out these in my Romani campaign as a Auxilla unit to supplement my samnites, they look equipped simular to my Hasati and seem would go well with the legions... but every time I gave them a chance they gave less then steller results, its not because they routed easily, on the contrary, they last to about 6 men before routing, but the thing is, they get to that number REALLY EASY, I'm pretty sure a unit of lugoae could best them they suck that much.

Nachtmeister

03-14-2009, 06:40

re: Pezoi Brettioi

Are you playing on VH battle setting...?
In my KH campaigns they serve as really good flankers. Don't use them for holding the main line - their formation is too loose for that. Run them around and behind the enemy. They have great stamina and when they attack the enemy from behind, they can be real killing machines. With Lugoae it is simple: one on one and from the front against a unit of L. in def-mode, yes, they might lose. But from behind or in close, chaotic melee with no defend mode, they will slaughter them. Think of them as more melee-oriented Peltastai.

Rilder

03-14-2009, 07:14

I only play Medium battle difficulty, VH is for metagamers. :p

Honestly though I used them like expendable manipules, they may be good for flanking but the battles they were used in required soldiers who could take punishment and they just weren't up to the job.

Marcus Ulpius

03-14-2009, 10:09

https://img21.imageshack.us/img21/3452/deutoroi.jpg

Phalangitai Deuteroi. That's the unit I love in my Mac campaign. They can do wonders if used properly, can hold the line against nearly everything but the heaviest cavalry tanks, and even when the formation is disrupted they still can hold their own against most low level units. Of course they die like flies when flanked by infantry killers or elites, but they aren't meant to be used that way. Even when they get into some not so nice position, they usually last long enough to bring reinforcements.

Africanvs

03-14-2009, 14:45

Yeah they are pretty good. Those guys with a couple units of hoplitai haploi to protect their flanks are a cheap but effective anvil for the early Mak army. Add a couple of units of cavalry ( two family members work great) to provide the Hammer and you shouldn't need to upgrade your infantry for a long time. For example in my Mak campaign, VH/M, I have conquered Illyria, Epirus, Koinon Hellenon, and am now waging a war against Pontos. I have already destroyed three stacks of Pontic armies with my veteran Phalangitai Deuteroi based army. These troops, when used properly, are easily as good as Pezhetaroi. I can't see myself replacing them any time soon.

A Very Super Market

03-14-2009, 16:33

Husker98

03-14-2009, 19:11

I'm playing in normal difficulty right now because I realized that for some reason, my 6 star general with 2 Uirodiosos acting as morale boosters/breakers and the elite Getai Spearmen as my linesmen were breaking and running even when fighting inferior units like the hoplite mercs. Kinda cheesed me off because by all accounts I should have had far more morale.

Anyway, to the units.

As Getai, I find that the elite spearmen are excellent lineholders even against pikemen, they just don't break easy. Bit on the expensive side but I feel they're more than worth their gold, excellent on wall defense too but I've noticed they're not as spectacular on wall offense.

Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_komatai_thorakitai_s.gif

Another awesome unit is one that I find indispensable are the Boii Cingetos. Decent linesmen but their speed makes them much better as flankers. They're kinda like the kluddolons (another useful unit, easier to acquire than Boii when campaigning east) but better able to withstand missile fire. I usually use them in conjunction with Drapanai, they guard against enemy counter attacks while the drapanai rip into the enemy from behind.

Boii Cingetos (Boii Swordsmen)
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/easteurope/ele_boii_infantry.gif

im sorry call me a nub or w/e but were in the hell is the Boii homeland were this unit is recruitable????
i've employed these troops as mercs but id like to know were i can recruit them as regulars into my army?

Husker98

03-14-2009, 19:12

Pantodapoi Phalangites are even better than those guys.
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_pantodapoi_phalangitai.gif
AP axes let them survive REAL long in combat, even when flanked.

sorry for the double post but i agree with u those Phalangites are my army in my AAR

Nachtmeister

03-14-2009, 19:17

im sorry call me a nub or w/e but were in the hell is the Boii homeland were this unit is recruitable????
i've employed these troops as mercs but id like to know were i can recruit them as regulars into my army?

Check the recruitment viewer - Ak Ink, Singidunum, Vindobona, two further territories in the area north of Illyria.

Husker98

03-14-2009, 19:41

Check the recruitment viewer - Ak Ink, Singidunum, Vindobona, two further territories in the area north of Illyria.

thanks im away from my gaming computer so i couldnt check......im at work lol

Chloe

03-14-2009, 23:30

The Dacian archers are not half bad, either!

antisocialmunky

03-14-2009, 23:49

That's funny because in a game today, my Alae Imperitoria walked up to 2 of them and didn't take any casualties.

WonkoTheSane

03-15-2009, 02:08

seienchin

03-15-2009, 03:53

They take casualties???
In my romani campain one silver chevron units of them killed 2principes and one pedites extraordinari with 1 to 2 chevrons... :help:
But i guess I had bad luck, when I played Karthago they were useless. :juggle2:
Has anyone fought dacian elite skirmisher in forests by now? They rock :whip:

heldelance

03-15-2009, 08:05

Husker: They're recruitable from most of the towns immediately west of Sarmigethuza. Need level 3 I think.

Dacian archers, the first ones you get are okay in the beginning, low range and damage make them fall out of use pretty quickly though. The second ones, elite archers are much better but their cost is monstrous. Just use the Scythian foot archers instead. The only difference between the two is that the elites are able to hold their own in C.C. but using ANY archers in c.c is a bad idea. If you can get them, Bosphoran archers are cheaper and are just as good.

Phalanx300

03-15-2009, 13:07

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/baktria_hetairoi_kataphraktoi.gif

These guys are awesome, in this multiplayer game I had I just had 20 of em. I was losing everywhere but there charges saved the day and they just wouldn't die(only 5 of them or something died) or rout. I really underestimated them! :2thumbsup:

Also, their unit description says that they never lost in any battle in which they were in, I gues that still holds.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/baktria_indogreek_nobles.gif

These guys also won me that battle, they took extremely heavy losses yet they fought on and protected my few phalangites from the back.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_indohellenikoi_hoplitai.gif

I expected them to be very bad but they holded my flank very well against Roman legionairries.

Onehandstan

03-15-2009, 13:43

I wouldn't call Cataphracts "surprisingly" good, just good. A running slab of metal with a spear sticking out of it is always going to be awesome.

antisocialmunky

03-15-2009, 13:47

Baktrian Late Bodyguard is the best Kataphract in the game.

Tolg

03-15-2009, 14:00

Indeed, now if they just had as many man as the Late Parthian catas...

Catas aren't surprisingly good. They are unsurprisingly invincible (if utilized and supported propperly).

antisocialmunky

03-15-2009, 14:02

Get on Hamachi Tolg, lets paly a game:).

soup_alex

03-15-2009, 15:16

In my Qarthadast campaign, these guys have proven to be extremely useful for flanking and crushing the Ptolemaic phalanxes from behind. The downside is that they can't hold a line and take many casualties, although they are described as phalanx spearmen.
I've found them to be just as capable in a line as Carthage's other spears/infantry; even in smaller units, their armour is a great help. Then again, these are the troopers you want on the flanks, as you say, to surprise those blasted phalangites while they attempt to chew on your heavies or Africans.

Phalanx300

03-15-2009, 16:55

I wouldn't call Cataphracts "surprisingly" good, just good. A running slab of metal with a spear sticking out of it is always going to be awesome.

Just one unit of these cataphracts(just 20 men) basicly won me the battle, I never really thought for them to be that good. The best cavalry!:2thumbsup:

Olaf The Great

03-15-2009, 19:00

Mediolanicus

03-15-2009, 19:47

That's an RTW bug (often happening when you fight a "seige" battle on a city with no walls). I had it happen everywhere and with every unit though.

A Very Super Market

03-15-2009, 21:32

Elite units don't count for surprisingly good. It isn'y surprising to see cataphracts break the enemy through charges. Because they are cataphracts. Their purpose is to do just that. If they didn't do it well, then they would be surprisingly bad.

Phalanx300

03-15-2009, 22:21

A Very Super Market

03-16-2009, 00:19

On what size?

Phalanx300

03-16-2009, 00:21

On what size?

That of 20 :clown:.

It was on large by the way.:2thumbsup:

A Very Super Market

03-16-2009, 00:37

That's not too bad. On huge, that is 40 cataphracts, the same as a non-heir/leader family member, and made to win.

I just destoried your argument! :P

Raygereio

03-16-2009, 09:17

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/baktria_taxilan_agema.gif

Taxilan Agema; I tried them in my current Baktria game and if they aren't bad, then I just don't now how to use them. I was expection some hidden gem of heavy cavalry considering their price, but to me they're just medium armoured skirmishers.
I tried using them like heavy cavalry, but they have no charge to speak of and in actual melee they die so fast it is humiliating realising how much money I just threw away (Note; I play medium difficulty battles).
The only way I found I could use them effectively is by using them as skirmishers, throwing javalins and harassing enemy skirmishers. But there are many more cheaper options (https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/bak_daha_baex.gif) available for that.

It kinda sad; I really like the way they look.

Slaists

03-16-2009, 14:31

Yeah, playing on Very Hard is much more difficult when you're playing a melee-based faction. The +7 bonus given to enemy defense is only applied to defensive skill, so your arrows still do full damage on Very Hard mode. Without horse archers you'll just get stomped.

Supposedly, on VH, the +7 bonus is applied only to AI ATTACK, not defense.

machinor

03-16-2009, 18:14

seienchin

03-17-2009, 05:41

100% Agree.
They are good skirmisers, but to expensive and still die like flies...:juggle2:

heldelance

03-17-2009, 06:21

A Very Super Market

03-17-2009, 06:30

No, horribly wrong.

Cataphracts are supposed to do that. The only way you could expect to assault the front of a formation is if you were covered in armour. Non cataphract heavy cavalry is to act as the hammer smashing in the back of a formation.

heldelance

03-17-2009, 06:39

I thought mediums are supposed to be the hammers?
But I do suppose what you say makes sense, just that I thought they had adequate armor for head ons.

A Very Super Market

03-17-2009, 06:57

What do mediums do, exactly? In-game they are grouped with heavy cavalry, as are cataphracts.

Skirmishers- Annoy
Lights- Chase away
Mediums- Half ^^ half vv?
Heavies- Hammer
Cataphracts- INVINCIBLE CHARGE ANYWHERE

seienchin

03-17-2009, 08:29

Medium Cavallery are divided in different classes.

Some of them are really tough in close combat, like the Tarantines, the campanians and the makedonian companian skirmishers. They are also skirmishers and better armoured, but slower than light cavallery and have quite weak charges.

Than there are the really fast charge cavallery who are perfect for flanking, routing skirmishers and catching horse archers. The podromoi are probably one of them, but you might argue, that they are light ones. Others would be the lonchoporoi Hippeis. The modern greece cavallery or the liby phoenician ones.
And then there are the quite useless old medium style cavallery like the Hippeis, the roman citizen cavallery and the eastern and median ones. They have weak charges, no javalines and are slow, but they are decent anti cavallery and anti skirmisher fighters and still able to flank the enemy, but rather to fight of or just tie the enemies flanking forces.

anubis88

03-17-2009, 11:40

In my carthage campaign i first used these
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_numidian_nobles.gif

and was rather dissapointed... i still use them, although very rarely (they didn't make it in my 2 iberian armys:yes:)
then went on to using these as my main medium cavalry force...
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/iberian_curisii.gif

of course they're not the same type of cavalry, but i was much more satisfied with the latter, i mean they really do a good job at charging, and even fighting in mellee for a whlie

seienchin

03-17-2009, 16:41

I also prefer charging cavalery(Even if unhistorical) over the skirmish/close combat ones. The skirmisher ones just suck against most of the enemies, while a good charge in the bakc is always helpfull :2thumbsup:

Ludens

03-17-2009, 18:30

The non-Kataphract level heavy cavalry are underpowered. Their job is to hit into anything (not spearmen) in the front to disrupt their formation which makes it easy for infantry to kill the enemy. Problem is that unless they're Katas, they lose almost 10 men per charge which puts them at a severe disadvantage.

There are quite a few threads about the effectiveness of heavy cavalry in EB. At one point an EB member challenged the OP to find historical examples of cavalry breaking formed heavy infantry with a frontal charge (from EB's time-frame, obviously). Since then only one example turned up: Alexander charging the Kardaskes as the battle of Issos, and even that is debatable (personally, I suspect the Kardaskes were thrown into disarray by Alexander's Agranians appearing on the flank: it looks like the Persian did not anticipate an attack on that flank at all). IIRC the Seleucids Cataphracts routed a Roman legion at the battle of Magnesia as well, but there may be something else going on as well. So, unles you know other examples, it looks like heavy cavalry, even cataphracts, breaking formed heavy infantry from the front is exceptional.

Macilrille

03-17-2009, 21:27

Heavy Cavalry will not break disciplined heavy infantry in formation in any period. Not even the Middle Ages that are my greatest period of expertise and the socalled "Age of Cavalry". personally I prefer to call it "Age of absence of trained infantry", as the dominance of the Knight was more a question of governmental structure/social organisation ("Feudalism" though revise your opinion of what that was by reading Susan Reynolds). There were no states with enough organisation to train heavy foot like the Legions of Rome (that basically takes a highly organised and hierarchial state), thus ruling depended on the local magnates (Knights = Heavy Cav) as did military. A Knight can train for war alone or with a few companions and be effective, a footsoldier cannot. Add to that the martial ethos of the ruling class that evolved into chivalry and you have an age where the Knight/Heavy cavalry dominated. Except on the few occasions when they did encounter organised and disciplined foot that did not run away to get hacked down, but stood their ground and repelled the charge. Tours and Hastings are the two first example I can think of. But others pop up throughout the age to culminate in English longbow and Swiss Pike slaughtering the chivalry of France and Burgund.

Zett

03-17-2009, 22:33

Heavy cavalry and frontal charges...perhaps not very historical, but today an enemy Seleucid General charged my Koinon Hellenon Phalangitais directly through the pikes...I lost over 40 men immediately (huge size, that makes 40 out of 242 men):dizzy2:.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_koinon_phalangitai.gif vs. https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/arche-seleukeia/seleukid_hetairoi.gif

KH Phalangitai are a little cheaper then Pezhetairoi, but have also lower stats and very important lower morale. Of course they are the only phalanx unit available for KH, but they are inferior to all other medium Phalangitai and you need a level 4 MIC to recruit them. The AOR on the other hand is ok, Taras, Kyrene, Alexandria, Antiochia are strategical good positions.

IMO they are some of the best units that the KH have, but are suprisingly bad in comparison to the successors. Yes I know that KH is a Hoplitai faction and not a Phalangitai, but makimg the KH Phalangitai available at level 3 MIC wouldn't harm.:clown:

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

SwissBarbar

03-18-2009, 08:09

Wow, how many bodyguards did this general have? Were you playing on Medium?

Nachtmeister

03-18-2009, 08:55

Surprisingly swift to... DIE:skull:: Hoplitai Troglodutikes

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/saba/saba_red_sea_hoplites.gif

First experience: One unit set to pin (but not assault) a Klerouchikon Agema phalanx, the other sent head-to-head with a thorakitai unit. Both on guard mode and not flanked. They got slaughtered down to less than half the original unit size even while every other unit in my army was hacking away at the enemy rear, two Sabaean generals among these - so in the end the enemy got routed but at a very unaccustomed price. Even Ekdromoi Hoplitai don't get butchered SO fast. Tell me the secret ingredient to make soldiers out of them... Or the proper tactic to use them. I feel badly frustrated - I was hoping for these guys to solve my problem of having no proper front-line survivor infantry in the Ethiopian area. Please don't say "...well, get Alexandreia and wait till you get a lvl 5 regional MIC there".

Even more swift to :skull:: Aithiopikoi Machairophoroi

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/saba/saba_ethiopian_swordsmen.gif

And they cost ~400minai upkeep... much more than peltasts and they seem to be simply --- un-capable. Is their only possible use charging three units of them simultaneously into the rear of ONE phalanx and hoping the phalanx routs within the first five seconds (before all of these guys are dead)? I am slightly exaggerating, but it was really bad - a unit of them got ripped to shreds on a wall by a quarter unit of peltasts... Had to back them up with a unit of

Great steam-rollers against anything not pointing pikes at them: Giusim Aravim 'im Garzenim

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/saba/saba_redsea_axemen.gif

I really like these guys; the problem is that you don't get them outsike of Arabia...

SwissBarbar

03-18-2009, 09:27

To defend the Hoplitai Troglodutikes:

As their description says, they're meant to chase and fight light units from skirmishers to maximum Peltastai. Their use is similar to the one of the Ekdromoi Hoplitai.

Zett

03-18-2009, 13:45

Wow, how many bodyguards did this general have? Were you playing on Medium?

It was a young General, so about 70-80 bodyguards. I play on M/M so no crazy bonuses, but they had a higher ground advantage. Normally (on even grounds) only a few horsemen get through the pikes, the AI seldomly makes frontalcharges, it normally walks slowly in the phalanx. I thought this would happen again, but this time the AI was 'smarter'. I also underestimate the higher ground bonus...damn 40 men in one sec!? But it looked awesome.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

The Fuzz

03-18-2009, 13:56

seienchin

03-18-2009, 15:30

Heavy cavalry and frontal charges...perhaps not very historical, but today an enemy Seleucid General charged my Koinon Hellenon Phalangitais directly through the pikes...I lost over 40 men immediately (huge size, that makes 40 out of 242 men):dizzy2:.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_koinon_phalangitai.gif vs. https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/arche-seleukeia/seleukid_hetairoi.gif

IMO they are some of the best units that the KH have, but are suprisingly bad in comparison to the successors. Yes I know that KH is a Hoplitai faction and not a Phalangitai, but makimg the KH Phalangitai available at level 3 MIC wouldn't harm.:clown:

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam
It wouldnt harm if they were recruitable without the romans building a huge city in italy... :juggle2::juggle2:

Os-Q

03-18-2009, 16:10

about Taxilan Agema, I have not used them, but I do know from my Lusotanan game (their family members are very similar) that you should use sword armed cavalry for: skirmishing, fighting lance armed cavalry and chasing routers. Do not try charging infantry.

But considering the other options in the area, they probably aren't that good.

machinor

03-18-2009, 19:18

Yes, they're not bad themselves, but the point is that their price is a bit high.

Nachtmeister

03-18-2009, 21:26

It wouldnt harm if they were recruitable without the romans building a huge city in italy... :juggle2::juggle2:

True; actually I wouldn't be surprised to find historical reference to the KH (or rather, "parts of southern Greece") using at least some pikemen even around the starting date of EB. I mean, Korinthos had a garrison of them, right? So what happens if it is liberated from Makedonia...? But gameplay-wise, the KH would be too easy if you had them from the start. Same reason for which you don't get Hoplitai @lvl1 MIC as KH (where they are available, considering the KH really represents independent cities, they would defend their homes immediately after being liberated from other powers)...

To get phalangitai without MOT, >>MAKE A BACKUP FIRST<<
You can mod the files... Need to edit "export_descr_buildings.txt" @ "D:\Games\RTW\EB\Data" (or wherever you have your game); edit the two lines where it says "and march of time" - just delete the last part, thus removing the condition but leaving the rest of those lines un-changed.

I don't know why it's two lines for one unit, but apart from that the file's entries are pretty much self-explanatory. I changed both lines (because I made a point of aiding the Hellenes in Megale Hellas early on, thus making it necessary to sack rome, Capua, Ariminum to avoid a red flood) and it worked just fine. You still need a high MIC for them though. So given the insane growth rate of AI controlled settlements, you don't get them much earlier by removing the MOT condition without power-gaming.

ziegenpeter

03-18-2009, 22:09

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_skaduganganz.gif

Really they look cool, but either they are to few in nmber or they die to fast. I know they arent line inf but more like cav, but nevertheless...

Nachtmeister

03-18-2009, 22:12

upload the image to your photo-album (here @ your user account), then open it here, then rclick and "copy image url", THEN paste this into the "add image" dialog. The forum won't display images stored on your local HDD. ;P

*EDIT* ok, issue solved, admins, please delete this post or tell me how to do this myself... */EDIT*

Zett

03-18-2009, 22:21

To get phalangitai without MOT, >>MAKE A BACKUP FIRST<<
You can mod the files... Need to edit "export_descr_buildings.txt" @ "D:\Games\RTW\EB\Data" (or wherever you have your game); edit the two lines where it says "and march of time" - just delete the last part, thus removing the condition but leaving the rest of those lines un-changed.

I don't know why it's two lines for one unit, but apart from that the file's entries are pretty much self-explanatory. I changed both lines (because I made a point of aiding the Hellenes in Megale Hellas early on, thus making it necessary to sack rome, Capua, Ariminum to avoid a red flood) and it worked just fine. You still need a high MIC for them though. So given the insane growth rate of AI controlled settlements, you don't get them much earlier by removing the MOT condition without power-gaming.

It's one line for every region and for every MIC level in which you can recruit the unit. So for KH Phalangitai, which are recruitable in 13 provinces and are availabel in MIC level 4 and 5, that makes 26 lines.

To make the Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai recruitable go to the "export_descr_buildings" file in your EB/data and search for "hellenistic infantry koinon phalangitai", then delete the "and marian_reforms" at the end of the line. You have to delete it for every "hellenistic infantry koinon phalangitai" entry. That makes at all 26 "and marian_reforms" you have to delete.

!BUT FIRST! make a BackUp of the file:whip:

https://img518.imageshack.us/img518/2140/neubitmap3qc5.png (https://img518.imageshack.us/my.php?image=neubitmap3qc5.png)
https://img518.imageshack.us/img518/neubitmap3qc5.png/1/w1280.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img518/neubitmap3qc5.png/1/)

IIRC its savegame compatible.

@topic:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/aedui/aedui_uirodusios.gif
I think the naked skirmishers, at least the celtic ones, are quite good against infantery and calvalery. Never used them myself, but fought sometimes against them. They are capable to hold a line and even break through the enemy (in this case my) lines sometimes.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

Tolg

03-18-2009, 22:44

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/sweboz/sweboz_skaduganganz.gif

Really they look cool, but either they are to few in number or they die to fast. I know they aren't line inf but more like cav, but nevertheless...

They just aren't meant to actually fight, have them wait behind your line infantry, throw a few few javelins and intimidate the enemy. That being said there are better/cheaper ways to get the same or an even better result.

ziegenpeter

03-18-2009, 22:48

They just aren't meant to actually fight, have them wait behind your line infantry, throw a few few javelins and intimidate the enemy. That being said there are better/cheaper ways to get the same or an even better result.

Yep. To me they appear like fewer, more expensive uirodusios(sp?)

seienchin

03-19-2009, 03:39

They just aren't meant to actually fight, have them wait behind your line infantry, throw a few few javelins and intimidate the enemy. That being said there are better/cheaper ways to get the same or an even better result.

But this would be unhistorical right?
Who would be scared of naked men when they were hiding behind the ones wearing armour? I always use them as flanking troops in close combat.

A Very Super Market

03-19-2009, 03:51

Well historically, they were used at night, and I'm not sure if it gives them a bonus.

Constantine the Great

03-19-2009, 04:09

Ekdromoi Hoplitai are proving enormously valuable in my KH campaign. They stand up pretty well on the flanks of the line. And Ligurian infantry are even better, too bad they're only recruitable in one region.

seienchin

03-19-2009, 04:20

Well historically, they were used at night, and I'm not sure if it gives them a bonus. Sorry I was talking about the similar celtic ones, who fight at day.

Soulghast

03-22-2009, 15:22

The Dacian archers are not half bad, either!

VERRI BAD AND SEKRET, U SAYS SO, I SAYS TEH OPPOSITE, MMKAY?

Zett

03-22-2009, 18:10

VERRI BAD AND SEKRET, U SAYS SO, I SAYS TEH OPPOSITE, MMKAY?

I think the same way, but please ... even if posting is some kind of art, I dislike this kind of expressionism.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

delablake

03-23-2009, 08:52

athanaric

03-23-2009, 11:18

I just found out that...ACCENSI are a wonderful unit for Romani at the start of the game - especially when used against heavy troops they are quite efficient, plus they are cheap and readily available in Italia. Accensi are definitely a :2thumbsup: for me!

Yeah, Accensi are the weakest slingers ingame but also definitely the cheapest. It's a pity the Romani can't recruit factional Balearic slingers though... but then again this would make them even more overpowered.

seienchin

03-23-2009, 13:17

Yeah, Accensi are the weakest slingers ingame but also definitely the cheapest. It's a pity the Romani can't recruit factional Balearic slingers though... but then again this would make them even more overpowered.
But their are always like 5 units of Mercenaries on the baleares itself and you can also get them in northafrica, gaul and spain so Romans have acces to them and of course they can get cretan archers. :dizzy2:
But phalanxes are the better fighters compared to legions.

delra

03-24-2009, 09:11

Accensi are especially good once they get some experience that will also increase their attack (first point doubles it!). Once they reach gold chevrons, they will be scoring more kills per battle than your Extraordinarii.

Also you can get some Numidian and Celtic slingers who with enough chevrons can double for the lack of Balearic or Rhodian ones.

It's a bit unrealistic though that ranged unit damage increases with experience, only their accuracy should rise. This one should get corrected in EB2.

SwissBarbar

03-24-2009, 10:49

well they aim better. An unexperienced slinger shoots his stone towards you, hoping that one of the stones of his unit hits you, while the experienced one aims for your left nipple and pierces your heart :laugh4:

Rilder

03-24-2009, 10:56

Accensi are a bugger to fit into a Roman Battle line if you try and form up in a semi-historical formation, though.

antisocialmunky

03-24-2009, 13:04

strategos roma

03-24-2009, 13:19

My good unit:
Thessalian horseman. Easy to get as mercs. Curepos, great stamina plus cheap. Thoriakitai, sort of a jack of all trade.

My bad unit:
Elite African Pikeman, utterly no match for argyraspides and Armenian cataphract horse archer, too expensive but vulnerable to other heavy calvary or light horse archers.

The Fuzz

03-24-2009, 14:21

I am finding that I love this unit. I had a remarkably terrible general and these tough guys held the line whilst said FM was pissing himself.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/baktria_tabargane_eranshar.gif

Tolg

03-25-2009, 16:04

My bad unit:
Elite African Pikeman, utterly no match for argyraspides and Armenian cataphract horse archer, too expensive but vulnerable to other heavy calvary or light horse archers.

Actually Africans are the only Phalanx I've respect for, no problems breaking Agryaspides/Ptol. Agema/Epeirote Agema with a frontal charge of my cataphracts (although of course I don't want to suffer unnecessary casualties and thus usually charge their backs) Africans are a different story though.
Then again, that's against cavalry, I don't use elite phalanx, so I can't really judge how they fare against their own kin.

And Armenian catas are - though somewhat expensive - just as good as the parthian ones making them one of the best units in the game. It is however a huge drawback that they're only recruitable in the Caucasus. Mountains are the realm of foot archers, not that of HAs.

strategos roma

03-26-2009, 12:26

Gaesatae. They are the best heavy infantry in game. They literally hack through their opponents like flies, no matter who they are.
P.S. Can they be recruited as mercenaries and if so where?

Rilder

03-26-2009, 12:42

Gaesatae. They are the best heavy infantry in game. They literally hack through their opponents like flies, no matter who they are.
P.S. Can they be recruited as mercenaries and if so where?

This is surprising?

Ludens

03-26-2009, 14:53

P.S. Can they be recruited as mercenaries and if so where?

You can recruit mercenary Tindanotae (Galatian Gaesatae) around Asia Minor. Gaesatae themselves are not available for hire.

Arutima

03-26-2009, 17:30

Yep. To me they appear like fewer, more expensive uirodusios(sp?)

you better of recruiting celtic naked spearmen, wich cost about two time less and does the same thing

Elcmar

04-07-2009, 19:04

athanaric

04-09-2009, 22:33

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/baltic/baltic_medininkas.gif

Baltic Frontiersmen. Being archer-spearmen, they have been mentioned before in this thread. So they are not entirely surprisingly good. What is surprising, however, is that they are the best archer-spearmen in the game! (I've checked the EDU) They have the second best range (187) of all available archer-spearmen, the highest morale and the best melee attack and defense skill. And of course I have found them to be reliable on the battlefield. Definitely the best choice for a Swêboz player who needs some archers.

seienchin

04-10-2009, 04:18

Hey guys, i've been playing EB for a year or so now, and lurking here for a while - thought i'd finally make an effort and post :laugh4:

Anyway my €0.02 on surprising units:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_taxeis_hoplitai.gif

Hoplitai Haploi: These guys have saved me so many times in sieges - great for blocking off streets - as long as they don't get flanked they can last a long, long time

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_prodromoi.gif

Found the Prodromoi (both hellenic and thracian) to be incredibly versatile in battle - great stamina and speed and can also deliver some damn good charges too

Gonna have to think about some other choices...

I agree on the Hoplitai Haploi, they are probably one of the best levy units in the game, but man the Podromoi are surprisingly rubbish compared to what their stats show. They have 13 Armour, but die faster than any cavallery I know in EB. Whenever they charge they loose like 3-5 men and despite beeing really fast they loose cavallery vs cavallery atacks...
I use them too really often and they are good at beeing flanking charging cavallery, but compared to their stats they suck and they arent usefull fighting longer campains.

Cullhwch

04-10-2009, 04:48

You shouldn't compare the Prodromoi's performance to their apparent stats, but to their upkeep cost. When you do that, they're really an excellent unit.

Decimus

04-10-2009, 05:58

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_peltastai.gif

Peltasts are cheap, quick , carry a few javelins and make excelent flanking infantry. I got a heroic victory agaisnt a full stack of macedonians at the start of a KH campaign due to these guys

Elcmar

04-10-2009, 19:34

I agree on the Hoplitai Haploi, they are probably one of the best levy units in the game, but man the Podromoi are surprisingly rubbish compared to what their stats show. They have 13 Armour, but die faster than any cavallery I know in EB. Whenever they charge they loose like 3-5 men and despite beeing really fast they loose cavallery vs cavallery atacks...
I use them too really often and they are good at beeing flanking charging cavallery, but compared to their stats they suck and they arent usefull fighting longer campains.

I suppose i never really stick them into a prolonged melee - i always use them for quick flank attacks, then run them away again - useful for that, and cheap enough too compared to other similar cavalry.

Hax

04-10-2009, 20:33

The hoplitai haploi are decent. I used them in early-game Epeiros when I created an Illyrian stack (4 hoplitai haploi, 2 phylectoi Illyrioi, 3 Illyrioi Hippeis, 1 Hippeis Tarantinoi, 2 akontistai). They served fairly well against the Illyrian soldiers in Dalminion.

Jebivjetar

04-10-2009, 22:20

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_forest_elephant.gif

These are good for killing romans.... mmm......:smash:

anubis88

04-11-2009, 00:05

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_forest_elephant.gif

These are good for killing romans.... mmm......:smash:

agreed... but it's hardly surprising isn't it jebiveter?

Rilder

04-11-2009, 00:58

agreed... but it's hardly surprising isn't it jebiveter?

They are as surprisingly good as getting kicked in the balls is surprisingly painful.

Jebivjetar

04-11-2009, 17:52

They are as surprisingly good as getting kicked in the balls is surprisingly painful.

Yeah, youre right. Anyway, once when ive foolishly send them on a unit of triari (i was so thirsty for some roman blood, and i could not resist) they did not win the battle... :oops:

Elcmar

04-11-2009, 20:00

Yeah, youre right. Anyway, once when ive foolishly send them on a unit of triari (i was so thirsty for some roman blood, and i could not resist) they did not win the battle... :oops:

Yeah elephants can be a bit fragile at time, i still hate fighting them though, especially in the Indian cities!

Chloe

04-19-2009, 15:39

The Ethiopian spearmen aren't half bad for defensive actions. However, I was disappointed with the elite rhomphaiaphoroi. Perhaps I wasn't using them right.

satalexton

04-19-2009, 15:54

keep them away from missle fire, they're ur dedicated chopper guys. Very fine heavy infantry, just somewhat limited in tactical roles. Definatly more than their worth if u use them in the right situation tho.

Elcmar

04-19-2009, 23:27

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/arche-seleukeia/seleukid_iudaioi_taxeis.gif

I wasn't expecting wonders form these guys the first time i used them, but they've proved surprisingly resilient in hand to hand against most infantry and cavalry to the extent i usually have at least 3 or 4 in most of my AS levant area armies acting as line-pluggers/phalanx flank protectors.

A Very Super Market

04-20-2009, 00:06

Racist. :clown:

Elcmar

04-20-2009, 00:27

Racist. :clown:

:laugh4: lol not why i wasn't expecting much - more their skirmisher kinda look - wasn't expecting them to be decent line pluggers too!

Sdragon

04-20-2009, 16:26

Hellenic spearmen are better and are cheaper and can be hired in the same places or right next to where you get them.

Nachtmeister

04-20-2009, 17:42

Hellenic spearmen are better and are cheaper and can be hired in the same places or right next to where you get them.

I believe ioudai taxeis have like 25% more men and thus it entirely depends upon their role... More men = more javelins = more dead enemies per volley = faster enemy rout... For def purposes, I agree: thureophoroi are awesome.

athanaric

04-20-2009, 17:49

Ioudaioi Taxeis and Pantodapoi/Machimoi Phalangitai make an excellent and fairly cheap combination in early campaign.

seienchin

04-20-2009, 21:53

Hellenic spearmen are better and are cheaper and can be hired in the same places or right next to where you get them.

Simply: NO!!
The Jews are better. They have more men, higher morale and higher range. :book:

satalexton

04-21-2009, 00:41

and semitists/human rights watch would travel back in time to throw lawyers at our enemies if they do so much as laying a finger on them.

WarpGhost

04-21-2009, 04:01

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_komatai.gif
When I was running my Dacian campaing, the humble Komatai (Dacian Skirmisher) was the backbone of the force. Cheap, numerous, but above all surprisingly solid. I have a tendency for employing skirmishers in very aggressive manner, but of all the ones i've used, these have been the only ones that I can honestly say have never make me wish I'd invested in some 'proper' combat infantry (though the Getai certainly allow access to those too). Their missiles tended to have little impact but put them in a knife-fight and they did me proud.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_pantodapoi_phalangitai.gif
They're the cheapest and probably crappiest of the phalanx troops, and they certainly do get overmatched at times, but I find I rarely have reason to care. They're reliable, they can overpower many units by simple dint of wholly respectable stats and the basic strengths of the phalanx formation, and against the heaviest foes they do a sterling job holding on until I can surround the enemy. And I can keep my armies stacked with a goodly number for a reasonable price. I just dont see why I would pour masses of funds into buying 'better' phalanx troops who can do the job I need them for only marginally better than the humble Hellenic Native Phalanx.

Sdragon

04-21-2009, 06:11

Simply: NO!!
The Jews are better. They have more men, higher morale and higher range. :book:

Pretty sure they have less moral. Also more men don't help them, Hellenic Spearmen still rip through them despite being cheaper and come with a larger recruitment area.

Nachtmeister

04-21-2009, 10:32

Misunderstanding - I don't think anyone else meant "one on one" - but rather which works out better in which role when supporting a whole army...
Like I said, if you want to use them to kill phalangites in an envelopment move by throwing javelins, ioudai taxeis are better, but for a defensive, "hold-the-line"- role and vs. cavalry and any frontal against infantry, thureophoroi are far better.
Is it possible that the original reference to "hellenic spearmen" a few posts ago actually meant the "pantodapoi"?

Back on topic:
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_iphikratous_hoplitai.gif

I have somehow managed to win some battles with these guys - but they die much too fast for hoplites. Calling them something like "crap" would go too far - but they are certainly not the "hold main battle line" troops suggested by the word "hoplitai"...

Elcmar

04-21-2009, 11:22

Hellenic spearmen are better and are cheaper and can be hired in the same places or right next to where you get them.

I never said that the ioudai taxeis were the best option available for their tactical role - rather that i was pleasantly surprised when i did use them, and they tend to fit in rather well with my RP'ing with the AS. And are thureophoroi not more expensive than the ioudai taxeis?

zarker

04-21-2009, 11:30

This has maybe already been raised, but i think the missile units (Totoxi(?)) in particular, run a little too fast? It's almost impossible to catch them without the light cavalry, and then only just. Surely the heavy cavalry should have an easy job of chasing them down. Perhaps the speed of cavalry is too slow?

anubis88

04-21-2009, 12:35

I don't remember if these guys were mentioned, but they are monsters when defending my walls... They almost always get the better of the Ptolemaic Thorakites. In my last siege, they killed 310 of the ptolemaic kleurichon agema and thorakitai. They fought to the last man, really got the job done
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pontos_anatolian_hillmen.gif

Apázlinemjó

04-21-2009, 14:14

seienchin

04-21-2009, 16:01

Pretty sure they have less moral. Also more men don't help them, Hellenic Spearmen still rip through them despite being cheaper and come with a larger recruitment area.

EDIT:
Enough with just stats. Tested them and the Jews won with 80 Deaths to 90 Deaths plus rout on the hellene side.
The Ioudaoi taxeis are actually more expensive than the Thureporoi, but in Melee by far better!

Elcmar

04-21-2009, 17:19

EDIT:
Enough with just stats. Tested them and the Jews won with 80 Deaths to 90 Deaths plus rout on the hellene side.
The Ioudaoi taxeis are actually more expensive than the Thureporoi, but in Melee by far better!

Yeah just had a look there, the Ioudaoi taxeis are a bit more expensive :oops: The higher unit number also comes in handy for garrison duty, although in saying that i usually use Pantodapoi Phalangitai instead - cheaper, and a phalanx. Still loving the Ioudaoi taxeis as line-fillers - helping me win back the arche! :smash:

Nachtmeister

04-21-2009, 19:01

EDIT:
Enough with just stats. Tested them and the Jews won with 80 Deaths to 90 Deaths plus rout on the hellene side.
The Ioudaoi taxeis are actually more expensive than the Thureporoi, but in Melee by far better!

Yes - but your results are likely as they are because you had the AI play the thureophoroi and the AI NEVER uses def mode (not in my game anyway - even with classical hoplites)...
I'm having trouble imagining a unit of thureophoroi routing to ioudai taxeis when properly handled.

Ravenfeeder

04-21-2009, 20:20

Suprised that they're good? No. Suprised they are that good? Oh yes!

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/baktria/baktria_bactrian_kambojas.gif

The aforementioned Anatolian Hillmen are also wonderful. Cheap as chips and killers of all things armoured. Latest victims Klerouch Agema Phalangitai.

Also

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/eastern/rebel_asiatikoi-hippakontistai.gif

Nor quite as good as curepos, but they do the job nicely.

seienchin

04-21-2009, 22:28

Yes - but your results are likely as they are because you had the AI play the thureophoroi and the AI NEVER uses def mode (not in my game anyway - even with classical hoplites)...
I'm having trouble imagining a unit of thureophoroi routing to ioudai taxeis when properly handled.
I let them fight AI vs Ai...
And Im not sure if its Darthmod, but something in my EB let some Units of the Ki have the Defense mode from the start of the battle so they had it. Anyway why should they win? they have two more Defense, same atack and less men. There is no way they can win... Thats why the Iodaioi Taxeis got more expensive in the newer EB Versions.

zarker

04-22-2009, 01:03

Maybe your cavalry unit was exhausted.:dizzy2:

I save the cavalry purely to counter the missile units. But they do generally get exhausted trying to catch them - the heavy cvl anyway. It's nice that routing units don't all get run down by them though, and more realistic that most of the casualties come from the actual fighting, not in the routing.

Interesting that one of the quotes in RTW is "The enemy is more hurt by desertion than by slaughter". Which kind of puts me in mind of Achilles being AWOL in the opening scenes of "Troy". :) I'm also thinking of the TV series ROME, where Pompey explains to Lucius that he lost the battle due to his unit routing and being wiped out. But as long as the enemy is decimated on the battlefield, who cares how it's achieved so long as it's entertaining.

Which makes me think - is it still a good tactic to flank an opposing army to try and get them to rout, or is it purely down to number of casualties now?

A Very Super Market

04-22-2009, 01:15

What do you mean, "now"?

Nachtmeister

04-22-2009, 04:30

I let them fight AI vs Ai...
And Im not sure if its Darthmod, but something in my EB let some Units of the Ki have the Defense mode from the start of the battle so they had it. Anyway why should they win? they have two more Defense, same atack and less men. There is no way they can win... Thats why the Iodaioi Taxeis got more expensive in the newer EB Versions.

In that case I must concede your point - and for multiplayer and autocalc, sure - my experience is limited to using thureophoroi myself against AI-controlled ioudai taxeis in the campaign... Where I usually manage to win :laugh4:
But then, I not only use def mode but I am also very careful to form a wide line formation with any units not trying to run-through or pin a phalanx, sacrificing depth for a bigger killing zone which has so far cancelled out the number advantage of the AI. Could have also been due to morale boost because of my generals' presence on the field; it was a one on one fight between the units on one of the flanks...
My experience with using ioudai taxeis myself is limited to my very short Ptolemaioi campaign and I have never used them against opposing thureophoroi in one on one.

zarker

04-22-2009, 13:21

What do you mean, "now"?

Like - my previous strategy was to hold the enemy in a battle line, then try and scare them into routing by flanking them with cavalry or some other scarey units, then wipe them out as they routed. I've always worked like this in all TW games, even on hardest levels. But now the wiping out is done on the battle line itself, as they don't tend to rout very easily. But maybe because I haven't any scarey units atm, and judging by it's description, the light cavalry doesn't sound like it's very scarey either. But I've just progressed to chariots though haven't used the in a battle yet. Maybe they will do it?

Nachtmeister

04-22-2009, 13:59

I save the cavalry purely to counter the missile units. But they do generally get exhausted trying to catch them - the heavy cvl anyway. It's nice that routing units don't all get run down by them though, and more realistic that most of the casualties come from the actual fighting, not in the routing.

Interesting that one of the quotes in RTW is "The enemy is more hurt by desertion than by slaughter". Which kind of puts me in mind of Achilles being AWOL in the opening scenes of "Troy". :) I'm also thinking of the TV series ROME, where Pompey explains to Lucius that he lost the battle due to his unit routing and being wiped out. But as long as the enemy is decimated on the battlefield, who cares how it's achieved so long as it's entertaining.

Which makes me think - is it still a good tactic to flank an opposing army to try and get them to rout, or is it purely down to number of casualties now?

Man something is wrong with your heavy cavalry or those missile troops. But a more efficient troop for that job would be heavy javelin-and-sword-cavalry than lancers. Lancers ar for making them rout. Swordbearers are for the killing. Hippeis xystophoroi have both :skull:
But they are not as fast as hippakontistai...
Regardless, the main goal in any battle where you intend to win is to make as many enemy units rout as fast as you can - and the main enemy casualties will come from routing if you have capable units for pursuit and get them into the rout-situation in a capable way.
Example:
You are fighting against Ptolemaioi with KH and have surrounded one unit of phalangites; you are pinning their front with a hoplitai unit on def and have a unit of peltastai run around them, throw all their javelins on them and then you have both units charge into them. The phalangites will rout and many-many of them will die instantly because your melee infantry (which is the best for killing routers except that it can not catch up with them) is already all over them. I don't know which of the def stats gets cancelled by routing and what sort of boost lethality gets, but the few phalangites that get out of that melee ball will be easy prey for any cavalry you might have.
If you have to instead kill them in melee (and from the front...) without routing them - well you would simply loose the engagement.

A Very Super Market

04-22-2009, 15:10

I think routing takes away all defense stats and gives the attacker of the unit 100% lethality. Frankly, any schlub can can hit a routing unit and kill it. Apeleutheroi have done it.

Zarkler, since I presume you're playing as the Casse, yes, it is fairly normal that it is main battle line that is central to your tactics. If you were playing as one of the Hellenistic or Eastern factions, you would be using armoured horsemen to rout them for then simply rely on your phalanx.

Os-Q

04-22-2009, 15:38

For chasing routers, I've seen a difference between lance armed vs. sword armed cavalry; guys with swords seem to do a lot better. I am not sure, but IIRC it has to do with the attack rate of their primary weapon.

Vilkku92

04-22-2009, 15:56

With cavalry, swords generaly have better attack than lances, but worse charge and are often not armour piercing. Routing units seem to have worse defence than units not routing, so good attack is better than good charge or armour piercing when pursuing routers.

Or something like that.

A Very Super Market

04-22-2009, 16:04

Routing units require a single hit to bring them down. You simply need to catch them. All weapons against them have 100% lethality rates, but they often move to fast for them to register as hits.

Nachtmeister

04-22-2009, 16:18

Routing units require a single hit to bring them down. You simply need to catch them. All weapons against them have 100% lethality rates, but they often move to fast for them to register as hits.

I've seen routers (especially when a unit is down to such low numbers that every man is critical for whether the unit will show up depleted on the campaign map after battle or be "gone") get beaten, fall, and stand up again - so I'd say 100% lethality is not what happens there (maybe also due to exhaustion of pursuing units).

zarker

04-22-2009, 18:25

I'm playing Sparta, and the heavy cavalry (generals) just cannot catch the foot missile units (totoxeii), no way. Light cav can catch them after a while, but have big probs killing them. The chariots are great at causing routs, catching and killing most units.

As far as routing an enemy line, I have big probs. Even when being attacked from all sides most armies I've faced so far just stand and fight until almost the last man, and mine are hardly touched.

Mediolanicus

04-22-2009, 18:30

On what difficulty are you fighting? Because on H and VH the unit balance is completely fucked up, not only attack and defense points, but morale too.

zarker

04-22-2009, 18:38

I'm playing normal, thinking it was a good way of getting to know the game.

So you don't recommend the higher levels? :(

Mediolanicus

04-22-2009, 18:44

I recommend M without exploiting the AI. Don't use fullstacks, don't use many elites or heavies,...

H and VH are perfectly fine when you use heavy hammer and anvil tactics and don't get frustrated when your elites can hardly win against skirmishers in a one on one fight. (That's on VH, H is more reasonable)

A Very Super Market

04-22-2009, 23:53

Nachtmeister

04-23-2009, 04:31

Wait, you're playing KH and have Horses as your general's bodyguard???

Routing units are running around, and you need to get a definite hit on them in order to kill them. What is this talk about knocking them over?

I'm assuming you mean my last post by "talk about knocking them [routing units] over...?
In that case, dunno about your machine but on mine it is exactly as I said - the last ten or so enemy soldiers in a routing unit given no quarter tend to play die-hard. They get hit, lay around there for a few seconds and stand up again to resume running away. Just like a unit hit but not killed in a melee fight will fall and get up and continue to fight.
This happens more frequently if the pursuing unit is exhausted (can take almost a full minute to kill three men).
Is something unclear about this / do you not experience it in your games?

Heavy cavalry generals - well he's probably referring to allied generals from hellenic settlements.

zarker, could it be that you are referring to a siege battle? With you being the one laying siege to some place and the enemy performing a sally? In that case - there is a bug that makes cavalry (or any other unit) that is supposed to kill off fleeing enemies just stop right upon contact until you capture at least one of the gates. Doesn't happen all the time but occasionally it does.

Vasiliyi

04-23-2009, 06:00

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_picked_libypho.gif
Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim

In my Qarthadast campaign, these guys have proven to be extremely useful for flanking and crushing the Ptolemaic phalanxes from behind. The downside is that they can't hold a line and take many casualties, although they are described as phalanx spearmen.

Hmm, ive found quite the opposite. They had such a hard time fighting numidian's. I mean im almost regretting putting them into my royal army (it was for rp reasons in my aar). In one of the battles, they fought against maure infantry. They won, but only taking 45-50% losses. For elite units to do that with peasants... despicable. (oh and the maure infantry DIDNT even throw their javelins at them. :shame:

and Im not a surprisingly bad general either... Im very tedious in my battles, perhaps too tedious.

Dutchhoplite

04-23-2009, 10:23

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/casse/casse_gaelaiche.gif

These guys are the backbone in my Casse campaign, i like them :yes:

anubis88

04-23-2009, 10:48

Hmm, ive found quite the opposite. They had such a hard time fighting numidian's. I mean im almost regretting putting them into my royal army (it was for rp reasons in my aar). In one of the battles, they fought against maure infantry. They won, but only taking 45-50% losses. For elite units to do that with peasants... despicable. (oh and the maure infantry DIDNT even throw their javelins at them. :shame:

and Im not a surprisingly bad general either... Im very tedious in my battles, perhaps too tedious.

Well, the maure do have a 2:1 ratio in unit numbers 240:120 IIRC. Plus, these men are by far at their best fighting armored units becouse of their axes. I guess they aren't as efficient against berbers.
In my campaign, they fared pretty good

athanaric

04-23-2009, 12:33

Dorkim Leebi-Feenikim Aloophim

In my Qarthadast campaign, these guys have proven to be extremely useful for flanking and crushing the Ptolemaic phalanxes from behind. The downside is that they can't hold a line and take many casualties, although they are described as phalanx spearmen.

They are excellent vs heavy cavalry too.

WonkoTheSane

04-23-2009, 14:21

Hmm, ive found quite the opposite. They had such a hard time fighting numidian's. I mean im almost regretting putting them into my royal army (it was for rp reasons in my aar). In one of the battles, they fought against maure infantry. They won, but only taking 45-50% losses. For elite units to do that with peasants... despicable. (oh and the maure infantry DIDNT even throw their javelins at them. :shame:

and Im not a surprisingly bad general either... Im very tedious in my battles, perhaps too tedious.

Yes, they really take many casualties against Numidians and such, but they're really useful for taking out phalanxes. If you ever have the fight against the Ptolemaioi, try using them to crush the phalanxes.

soup_alex

04-23-2009, 17:08

Hmm, ive found quite the opposite. They had such a hard time fighting numidian's. I mean im almost regretting putting them into my royal army (it was for rp reasons in my aar). In one of the battles, they fought against maure infantry. They won, but only taking 45-50% losses. For elite units to do that with peasants... despicable. (oh and the maure infantry DIDNT even throw their javelins at them. :shame:

and Im not a surprisingly bad general either... Im very tedious in my battles, perhaps too tedious.
That's bad. Did the Maure have chevrons?
I would urge you to give them another shot. They might not really excel against the Numidians, as their best use is versus heavy armour (and I would be surprised if there was a single unit in the African local roster that didn't beat them for stamina, so...)
As [well, many people!] suggest, try sending them against phalangites (or Roman regular infantry or cavalry).

I'm picking my way through your AAR, btw. Excellent stuff!

Elcmar

04-23-2009, 19:14

They are excellent vs heavy cavalry too.

I've also found them to be great for mincing up Triarii, just don't get them involved with any kind of fast skirmishing unit and you'll be fine!

@ OP - for dealing with the numidians and berbers as carthage, i've found large amounts of balearic slingers mixed with archers, backed up with some Spearmen can usally kick them crap out of anything you might come across - just don't let your elites get bogged down!

Watchman

04-23-2009, 19:17

Er... aren't the Maures the dudes with 0.225 lethality longswords...? They're pretty much the North African equivalent of those lighter Celtic longswordsmen, IIRC. Not exactly "peasants".

Elcmar

04-23-2009, 19:28

Er... aren't the Maures the dudes with 0.225 lethality longswords...?

Bloody hell, good job i've just gotten that updated unit documentation - gonna have to pay more attention to lethality values

soup_alex

04-24-2009, 05:05

Er... aren't the Maures the dudes with 0.225 lethality longswords...? They're pretty much the North African equivalent of those lighter Celtic longswordsmen, IIRC. Not exactly "peasants".
Good grief, you're right. And I thought the clubs of Numidian Archers were bad enough (0.14, not to be sniffed at in Western Africa and Iberia; AP). Then again, I also thought that the sole reason to pick Maure over Garamantine or Numidian skirmishers/infantry was the improved armour and elephant-hide shield.

Vasiliyi

04-24-2009, 05:38

Well, the maure do have a 2:1 ratio in unit numbers 240:120 IIRC. Plus, these men are by far at their best fighting armored units becouse of their axes. I guess they aren't as efficient against berbers.
In my campaign, they fared pretty good

I will have to give them another chance I guess. I havent really used them against anything other than Numidian armies so far.

Yes, they really take many casualties against Numidians and such, but they're really useful for taking out phalanxes. If you ever have the fight against the Ptolemaioi, try using them to crush the phalanxes.

Ill have to try em out on them one day.

That's bad. Did the Maure have chevrons?
I would urge you to give them another shot. They might not really excel against the Numidians, as their best use is versus heavy armour (and I would be surprised if there was a single unit in the African local roster that didn't beat them for stamina, so...)
As [well, many people!] suggest, try sending them against phalangites (or Roman regular infantry or cavalry).

I'm picking my way through your AAR, btw. Excellent stuff!

Hmm, well I have yet to fight them, but ill try them out against stronger infantry. OH and thanks for the compliment. :bow:

Brave Brave Sir Robin

04-24-2009, 16:48

I got into the unfortunate situation of having my first Polybian Roman Army get completely decimated by almost a single unit of silver chevron Elite Liby's guarding a bridge. They took 3 hastati and 2 principes, all pila thrown, before they finally submitted. Unfortunately that was half my infantry:shame:

First battle i went in with even odds and lost that I can remember.

My surprisingly good unit has to be Batacorii, the Belgian Spearmen. These guys are relatively cheap and can take out just about every similarly armed unit on continental Europe. I had three units of these guys kill over 700 Sweboz soldiers who were sieging one of my towns on large unit size during a Casse campaign. In addition to them being awesome as recruitable soldiers, they are also recruitable as mercs meaning you can rebuild damaged units on campaign.

A Very Super Market

04-24-2009, 22:18

Well.... don't fight on bridges without significant ranged infantry.

Brave Brave Sir Robin

04-25-2009, 13:04

Well I was using a realistic Roman army for that campaign so I did skimp on ranged units at that point. Had 3-4 units of Velites, maybe one Accensi but they didn't do anything against the heavily armored elite libys. You can't really fire from sides or behind in bridge battles.

I also wasn't trying for a bridge battle. I was sieging Utica from the bridge and a full Carthaginan army appeared and attacked me. No possibility of withdrawing so I was stuck...

Just had to rebuild that army and have another go. At least my general died a hero's death

Vilkku92

04-26-2009, 16:47

I also wasn't trying for a bridge battle. I was sieging Utica from the bridge and a full Carthaginan army appeared and attacked me. No possibility of withdrawing so I was stuck...

If the Carthaginians attacked you while you was standing on a bridge, you should have been the defender. Why were you trying to cross the bridge?

Watchman

04-26-2009, 17:00

Because it was there ? ~:wacko:

Brave Brave Sir Robin

04-26-2009, 23:49

AI refused to attack and battle timer was off. Dumb I know. Always play with timer on now.

Aemilius Paulus

04-27-2009, 01:58

Always play with timer on now.
*winces* That will backfire more than it will aid you... Plus, it is not as realistic, game-wise. Finish a campaign with the timer on and then do another campaign with it off, before telling me which one you prefer.

Lovejoy

04-27-2009, 03:03

In a normal battle the battle timer is never a problem. Atleast not for me. Some times in sieges the battle timer becomes important, for instance if you are attacking and the defences are really strong. But I kind of like it, even if its not realistic. Adds some tension to the sieges. :clown:

antisocialmunky

04-27-2009, 03:37

*winces* That will backfire more than it will aid you... Plus, it is not as realistic, game-wise. Finish a campaign with the timer on and then do another campaign with it off, before telling me which one you prefer.

The debate can go either way depending on the time scale in your head since it can be construed as running out of daylight.

Brave Brave Sir Robin

04-27-2009, 13:04

I used to prefer it off before the aformentioned bridge battle and the occasional decision by the AI to siege me with a large army of horse archers, break down the wall, and never come into town. That situation never goes over well with my light cavalry.

"Alright boys, they're gonna wait out there forever until we surrender. You try to get them to charge the town by acting as bait."

Personally never had an issue with timer. My battles don't last longer than 45 min or whatever they normally give you for a decent sized battle. For the record, I've played 5 campaigns now on EB: Arche, Casse, Romani, KH, and now Lusotann. Last two have had time limits and had no problems even with the slow hoplites of the Koinon.

athanaric

04-30-2009, 02:37

Regarding the Uirodusios vs. Woithiz Watha debate a few pages back:

The Woithiz Watha/Skadugangonez are not as bad as some here think. They have indeed some advantages going for them:
- higher morale (18 instead of 16)
- more ammo (4 instead of 3)
- higher charge bonus (12, which is only rivalled by Gaesatae and Tindanotae, instead of "only" 8)
- higher attack (both melee and missile) and defense skill.

Compare that to the Uirodusios' advantages:
- inspire friendly troops
- larger unit size
- much cheaper
- much larger AoR
- higher javelin range.

In the end, it is only a matter of preference. I say Woithiz Watha are worth their price, simply because of their cool name and their truly otherworldly appearance.

Aemilius Paulus

04-30-2009, 03:32

Well, if you are a pike phalanx nation, then I say the timer is important. Pikes are awfully slow at killing elites if no other units are supporting via flank/rear attacks, as it often happens in sieges.

alexanderthegreater

05-02-2009, 15:54

Anyone posted Thraikioi Hippeis yet?
If not id say theyre SURPRISINGLY gOOD
For 591 upkeep you get mounted skirmisher that, when their javelins are gone, perform like better medium cavalry than ive ever seen. Thureos, scordisci sword, and decent armor. Ive devastated the sarmatian Cavalry/Foot archers armies with these guys.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/thrace/rebel_thrakioi_hippeis.gif

satalexton

05-02-2009, 16:04

ahh yes, another prime example of how the victors' the one with the bigga-choppa.

Vilkku92

05-02-2009, 16:18

DaciaJC

05-02-2009, 16:53

My suprisingly good unit is Akontistai.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_akontistai.gif

They can also hold for a while in hand-to-hand.

If only because of their large unit size... :juggle2:

I much prefer the Getic Komatai.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_komatai.gif

As another person posted before me, they are excellent skirmishers, and once they get into melee combat, they are surprisingly hardy (much more so than Akontistai).

I do believe Drapanai deserve another mentioning.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_drapanai.gif

These fellows comprise approximately a third to one-half of my field armies. Simply put, they are one of the most cost-effective units that I know of, able to dole out damage like nobody's business. They are extremely cheap considering what they can do (with AP ability plus .26 lethality, not even the most heavily armored elites are safe), they have a decent unit size, they have a wide AoR in the Eastern Europe area, and they are very hardy troops.

Pinning the enemy's line troops with Komatai + flanking and charging from the rear with Drapanai = INSTA-WIN.

The one fault that I can find with the Drapanai is their complete lack of armor, which makes them highly vulnerable to missile troops of any sort. A few HA/FM usually sorts out that problem, though.

mosedavid

05-02-2009, 17:09

agree about the Akontistai

as i dont consider casualties from any unit acceptable then units have to perform their job with minimum casualties whilst maximising the enemy casualties - this way i usually have kill ratios from 80:1 - 10:1.

Playing a fairly new campaign at the mo - Rome... my favorite units would have to be:

numidian cavalry: these are the 'annoying little buggers' of my army - can charge enemy rear at a push too. Brill unit. They usually suffer no more than 5-10% and kill aprox 250 enemy per battle.

roman camilian equites: basically shite and suprisingly bad.

roman leve slingers: apparently they are the weakest slinger in the game but with some silver chevrons they do just fine. I expect these to kill around 200+ enemy if i can bring them to bear. shame their formation is totally massive.

leve hopilites (greek): They die a bit more quickly than their grown up counterparts but they are pretty flexible.

bad units, or ones i find a bit useless on the price/performance ratio would be most if not all heavy cavalry (why spend all that when infantry can do the job, suffer no more casualties and cost less), most celtic guys like the sword mercs, elephants (read 'waste of cash' - a bit like buying a lamborghini - shows you have too much money but no taste/grasp of tactics).

sorry no pics, im at work having a sneeky :laugh4:

aelflune

05-02-2009, 20:33

bad units, or ones i find a bit useless on the price/performance ratio would be most if not all heavy cavalry (why spend all that when infantry can do the job, suffer no more casualties and cost less), most celtic guys like the sword mercs, elephants (read 'waste of cash' - a bit like buying a lamborghini - shows you have too much money but no taste/grasp of tactics).

No, wait, you don't grasp tactics. Do you understand concentration of force? Elephants are that - force concentrated in a small group of 6 beasts (on high setting). They are my fist. I bring elephants when I know the situation will get hairy. With just one group, I can beat an army half made up of Hellene elites twice the size of mine on hard battles. It can be done with extra units of the same cost, sure, but they would be numerous and unwieldy. Elephants are few and maneuverable. Keeping them away from javelins is generally a simple matter, and they will hardly even die.

Definitely well worth the price. Similar principle applies to heavy cavalry.

Nachtmeister

05-03-2009, 00:55

athanaric

05-03-2009, 01:21

It should also be mentioned that Elephants, like Gaesatae, force the enemy to concentrate a significant part of his force on these units in order to take them out. These "terror" units are always my missile target No. 1 (together with light HAs), because if they manage to reach your line safely, they'll cause a hell of a lot of problems.

About Akontistai (and Eastern Skirmishers; basically the same unit): They are useful for three things mainly:

1. garrison duty

2. kill Elephants

3. decimate enemy Phalanx (from behind of course).

Btw.: mounted skirmishers can also be very dangerous to Elephants, and they are much harder to catch than Akontistai. I'd wager that using Elephants against the Lusotannan is pretty much suicide, since every single one of their units (except slingers and the like) has got some nasty javelins and can hide behind every bloody tussock (yes, even the cavalry).

aelflune

05-03-2009, 03:18

Welcome to the .org, you two - and let's keep it nice and fluffy please; there is no such thing as "having no grasp of tactics" - there is merely "having a different opinion on ideal tactics"... ~D
Both of your approaches can be superior - it depends on what the enemy is fielding.
In fullstack vs fullstack confrontations I would tend to support the "concentration of force" argument; in same-total-unit-cost-on-both-sides-battles (which are usually multiplayer battles), it can be risky to use elephants because evading a human player's skirmishers is not going to be very easy.
And yes, under the right circumstances, akontistai can be a deadly damage-dealer. Under less ideal circumstances they can still be of use as living airbags...

No offense intended, really. Just remarking that the statement in question is false and slightly out of line.

I think the key to elephants is knowing when to use them. Generally, I keep them well back from the front and in a position to get to either flank fairly quickly. They usually only go forth when the melee has begun in earnest and most infantry javelins have been spent or there are very few free units of infantry to throw javelins at them. Other mobile units are good at keeping the enemy busy and away from the elephants, especially those skirmishers.

Skirmisher cavalry are indeed a real threat, but there's always the option of focusing archer fire on them. They wouldn't last long under withering fire from 2 or more groups of Kretikoi or other good archers. If there are only a small number of them left, they can't do very much harm and at most you can chase them around with a free FM or something. I've found that elephants can last under sparse javelin attacks, so there's no need to be overly worried if the threat has been significantly reduced.

Just my 2 mnai's worth. Now, back to lurking. And subjugating Romans - but they've been wiped out anyway. Oh well :smash:

Aemilius Paulus

05-03-2009, 03:57

My suprisingly good unit is Akontistai.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_akontistai.gif

I have found them very useful in killing phalanxes: 6*120 javelins from behind will cause damage. They can also hold for a while in hand-to-hand. Plus they are cheap.
If they are surprisingly good, then anything is. They are THE weakest unit in EB, save for their javelins. However, if a unit is pursuing them, they will not have time to loosen more than 1-2 volleys. Then one must decide to flee or fight. Fight will mean death. Fleeing is indecisive. Given a good commander, anything is great. This is, however, taking it a bit too far. I suppose. Maybe.

As for the elephants, I remember one time there was a single general left of a bodyguard. I was going to finish him off with Hoplitai, but I knew that would take at least a minute or two, all of which the general would hack my hoplites, one by one, with his high damage&lethality attack. It has already happened to me countless other times, and so I sent in my starting Epriote unit of Elepahantes Indikoi. The general himself was a Makedonian and had no traits raising his hitpoints (I check the traits before the battle).

And so I send in my elephants. Two minutes later the general is dead, but so is one of the elephants. The general had slain him with his sodding five-millimetre kopis. To make it worse, the falling elephant missed, and did not crush the general. Thankfully, the other elephants soon dispatched the valorous Makedonian, but the loss of an elephant undone was not.

Another time I used the same unit of elephants to attack another Mak army consisting of 7 Peltastai, 4 Thessalian Cavalry and 10 Hoplitai Haploi. That is not the number of units, but the number of soldiers (Large Unit Size). My elephants were full size, save for the single loss. End result of the battle? Crushed the Hoplites, routed the Peltastai, and then lost 2 elephants in a fight with with the 4 Thessalian horsemen. WTH? Needless to say, I reloaded.

antisocialmunky

05-03-2009, 04:31

Akontistai aren't bad. They eat elephants for breakfast and ... there's a lot of them...

Also, @ elephants. Mounted units vs elephants is a little unpredictable...

Aemilius Paulus

05-03-2009, 05:21

Also, @ elephants. Mounted units vs elephants is a little unpredictable...
You mean, predictable? Elephants get a huge bonus against cavalry. Almost like the scythed chariots. Not to mention, mounted units always die quicker and more randomly. Unless they are 30+ armour catas/BGs.

antisocialmunky

05-03-2009, 13:20

I know that they both have ridiculous cav bonuses, but it largely depends on the speed the elephant/chariot is going at so the results aren't always reliable.

machinor

05-03-2009, 16:32

Also one has to watch out to charge correctly, meaning that the enemy is standing still. If they move, then charge bonuses are almost nullified. A bit tricky. As Epeiros I use Elephants basically as nutcracker to crack open tough enemy (mostly AS) phalanx lines. As Eastern Greeks are able to recruit Klerouchoi Ph. which chew up my Ph. Deuteroi and Pezhetairoi are hard to replenish. Usually I have few heavy sword infantry units, mostly Thorakitai which do okay against Ph. but take quite some time defeating them. So an elephant charge is quite useful for decisively breaking the enemy main line.

mosedavid

05-03-2009, 20:54

No, wait, you don't grasp tactics. Do you understand concentration of force? Elephants are that - force concentrated in a small group of 6 beasts (on high setting). They are my fist. I bring elephants when I know the situation will get hairy. With just one group, I can beat an army half made up of Hellene elites twice the size of mine on hard battles. It can be done with extra units of the same cost, sure, but they would be numerous and unwieldy. Elephants are few and maneuverable. Keeping them away from javelins is generally a simple matter, and they will hardly even die.

Definitely well worth the price. Similar principle applies to heavy cavalry.

hey, no worries mate/matess! All I was saying (read - my opinion) was that for me I don't want or need heavy cav or elephants.I can do the job with inf and light cav. I find using the hammer and anvil tactic with inf and cav pretty boring against the AI. It's a no brainer and they fall for it every time. As for tactics, I would imagine that lossing 80-10:1 against the enemy makes my tactics pretty good, especially when i'm not using elite troops such as elephants and heavy cav.

Anyway, i don't want to get annoyed or anything, you have your methods, i have mine. It's good that the games flexible eh? :2thumbsup:

aelflune

05-03-2009, 21:57

Personally, I prefer quality than quantity, and so I tend to have smaller stacks of decent units (not necessarily elites at all). This is why I'm sometimes unsurprisingly heavily outnumbered, even by stacks that contain quite a few elites. Under such circumstances, I've learned the tactical advantage concentration of force grants.

Jebivjetar

05-10-2009, 10:16

Surprisingly bad: Loricati Scutari: yesterday one unit of these lost by one unit of lousitanian light infantry :no:

I think i wont train them anymore...

Aemilius Paulus

05-10-2009, 18:01

Surprisingly bad: Loricati Scutari: yesterday one unit of these lost by one unit of lousitanian light infantry :no:

I think i wont train them anymore...
If the Luso infantry had falcatas, then it should be no surprise. Even the lowliest AP infantry will badly chew up or even win against the heavily-armoured elites. The Luso light infantry was basically fighting only against the half-armour versions of the Loricati Scutaris. Not to mention, they were also more numerous, and had something like 6 javelins. Do not let that stop your recruitment of Scutaris. Just remember to be careful with your elites when you face AP infantry.

Jebivjetar

05-10-2009, 19:52

If the Luso infantry had falcatas, then it should be no surprise. Even the lowliest AP infantry will badly chew up or even win against the heavily-armoured elites. The Luso light infantry was basically fighting only against the half-armour versions of the Loricati Scutaris. Not to mention, they were also more numerous, and had something like 6 javelins. Do not let that stop your recruitment of Scutaris. Just remember to be careful with your elites when you face AP infantry.

O, i didn't know that Luso infantry have AP weapon. Thanx for information :2thumbsup:
Anyway i get reforms and i'm able to train Iberian assault infantry. Didn't try them on Lusos because they're wiped out by now. But on Ptolies they do their job: 2-3 elite african pikemen+ 2 of Ib. assault inf. and ptolie phalanx=:skull: :whip:

Fluvius Camillus

05-10-2009, 19:55

I think all overhand spear cavalry is not as good as they should be, the overhand spear charge effect is negligible. They are somewhat better in pursuing routing opponents, but I would rather use light cavalry for that purpose. Up close the western overhand fighters usually dont fight good.. The eastern ones though do so, because they have AP(IIRC) axes up close.

So I'm especially talking about these, especially the Roman Equites and Greek Hippeis.
Suprisingly BAD
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/koinon-hellenon/kh_hippeis.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/romani/roman_camillan_eqvites.gif

The secondary weapons of these units dont make up for their weak charge.

On the other hand I find some types of light cavalry extremely useful, javelin throwing cavalry with short spears or simple light spear cavalry can usually deliver a nice charge. These troops are not really good up close, but they dont need to do that, they are usually fast moving and have high stamina. Chasing routing opponents if a good use of them too, cutting down medium phalanx or something like that before they change their minds and decide to fight again.

I am talking about the Leuce Epos (Gallic light cavalry) or their mercenary equivalent, the Machimoi Hippeis and the Illyrian Light cavalry.
Suprisingly GOOD
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/aedui/aedui_leuceepos.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_machimoi_hippeis.gifhttps://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/epeiros/epi_illyrioihippeis.gif

Even better are the extremely versatile steppe riders, picking off foes from a distance and able to deliver a nice charge.

The Steppe riders:
SUrprisingly AWESOME:yes:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/hayasdan/hay_bydirag_baex.gif

~Fluvius

Nachtmeister

05-29-2009, 14:52

Ethiopian cavalry.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/saba/saba_cavalry_ethiopian.gif

They don't leave it at kicking @ss - they rip it right out, then follow it up with a thorough
prongulation process. Finishing moves included. 520mnai of sheer awesome juggernaught.
These guys are so badass that they do it for the entire duration of a battle - quicker to charge
and re-deploy than hetairoi, much more stamina - and effective against armor with a charge bonus of 30... Does it get any better?
-Yes it does; they have great morale (as long as you don't send them on suicide missions; they are not catanks).
They are making the Saba campaign fun in spite of countless battles severely outnumbered by Ptolemaioi every year and cut off from reinforcements.
SUCH a crazy battle-turner:
1x FM
1x Ethiopian cavalry
2x Sabaean levy spearmen
3x pantodapoi
1x Arabian light infantry
4x Arabian archer-spearmen
2x Arabian slingers
(it used to be 2x A. light inf. and 4x Sab. levy sp. without the pantodapoi as the army set out for conquest... And ALL units were severely depleted except for the archers)...

Against a Ptolemaic nearly-full stack of
Hetairoi
Thessalians
Prodromoi
Galatian heavy swordsmen
Galatian shortswordsmen
Assorted mix of klerouchoi phalangitai and thureophoroi to fill up the rest
(and one unit of akontistai)

... I lost 300 men. 3 of them were Ethiopian cavalry. The rest were pantodapoi and 20 Sabaeans (both lineholders). I should have lost that battle. Ethiopians are some kind of nuke. They have the power to first make, then pursue routers, return to the battle -- and do the next unit all the time until there are none left. And due to being effective against armor they kill routers extremely fast. No comparison to prodromoi or the likes. Looking for the melee cav that will kill a routing enemy general rather than keep missing? Here you go. And kill a 3/4 unit of thureophoroi - huge unit size - down to 10 men (which means they are certainly not coming back to the battle) in 15 seconds.

They have been performing similar feats ever since I first recruited them. 10 turnst straight without reinforcements. It takes something to impress me. These guys do.

:skull:.

Zim

05-29-2009, 22:57

If only because of their large unit size... :juggle2:

I much prefer the Getic Komatai.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/getai/getai_komatai.gif

As another person posted before me, they are excellent skirmishers, and once they get into melee combat, they are surprisingly hardy (much more so than Akontistai).

I'd like to second the mention of the Komatai. I have a Getai campaign going and these guys formed the main line in my armies during my war with Macedonia. I was amazed at how well they'd hold even against some of Macedonia's elite troops, more than long enough for the Drapanai and cavalry to win the battles on the flanks, and easy to replace when they took heavy casualties.

athanaric

05-29-2009, 23:28

Ethiopian cavalry.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/saba/saba_cavalry_ethiopian.gif

You forgot to mention that they have high lethality longswords too. Ethiopian units are great. You can make a whole functioning army out of just these four unit types.

Cute Wolf

06-03-2009, 06:21

Aemilius Paulus

06-03-2009, 15:53

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/ptolemaioi/ptol_machimoi.gif

According to my experience when trying to use them.... they are completely useless brats on the field... everyone pawns them (except pantodapoi of course):sweatdrop: ....
I would say they are surprisingly good. Very surprisingly. Especially against elites. With the blacksmith, they get 10 AP attack, 20 armour, and four 6 attack javelins. Not bad for 1173 mnai, eh? Even without the AP bonus they would be great, but with AP they are marvellous. They are still low-cost medium infantry though, and treat them that way.

Cute Wolf

06-03-2009, 18:10

Their Ethiophians counterparts from Saba pawn them very quickly, when tryying to took ethiophia (when it revolt to Saba).... and they can't stand long against phalanx... that's the reason of My Ptolemaioic Defeat against Seleukids at... Alexandreia.... Half Stack of them can't take even a little time in fornt of phalanx... (they ROUTS!!!) that even hoplitai haploi will hold for a significant time... (The Phalanx is Pantodapoi!!! :furious3: ; If Argyraspides I wouldn't complain about them)

Watchman

06-03-2009, 20:13

Dude, they most definitely aren't supposed to so much as DENT a phalanx from the front... flankers, anyone ?
Those guys are more or less supposed to act as comparatively low-cost, versatile "jeep" infantry, not duke it out with the big boys in a slugging match. Conversely IIRC the Ethiopian swordsmen (who lack AP, if memory serves) are more of a relatively high-class "light assault" unit...

Aemilius Paulus

06-03-2009, 23:00

In EB, only very heavy cavalry can dent a phalanx from the front. Rarely can an infantry unit get past the pikes to dish some damage. And Cute_Wolf, it is pwn or own(ed). Not pawn (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/pawn).

Watchman

06-03-2009, 23:14

"Pwnt" or "pwnd" also sees use. As occasionally does "pwnz0red", but I think that's SO last week now... :sweatdrop:

Aemilius Paulus

06-03-2009, 23:17

Yeah, but I do not think anyone say "pawned", do they? Or maybe that is the newest thing out there:sweatdrop:

:laugh4::laugh4:

A Terribly Harmful Name

06-03-2009, 23:32

"pawned" is soooo last second :clown:.

Celtic_Punk

06-03-2009, 23:37

I think you guys need to stop butchering the English language, go out and get laid.

by the way, hippies are total gobshiites

Overhand spear cavalry are for treehuggers!!!

Aemilius Paulus

06-04-2009, 00:01

I think you guys need to stop butchering the English language, go out and get laid.
For one, my grammar and vocabulary is impeccable. Anyone who knows me can attest to this, especially if they are from the EB Tavern. Secondly, I am asexual, so that crosses out the second option as well.

Celtic_Punk

06-04-2009, 00:06

but uh what? um... oh....... You just need to meet the right girl dude. Maybe a ying to your yang. or a yang to your yang. (some people like people exactly like them... I'd probably drop a girl if she was exactly like me.. I'm quite the self loathing insufferable bastard)

Watchman

06-04-2009, 00:16

"pawned" is soooo last second :clown:.And cheap. ~;p

satalexton

06-04-2009, 00:28

I am asexual

Ahh, so you reproduce by shedding off pieces of yourself? :clown:

Zett

06-04-2009, 08:19

I think you guys need to stop butchering the English language, go out and get laid.

by the way, hippies are total gobshiites

Overhand spear cavalry are for treehuggers!!!

I agree, Hippeis are not very evective, they are worse against infantry (no charge) and are not significant better against other cavalry types in melee that can couch their spears/lances. They are only good to hunt down routers and to distract enemy flankers.

By the way, if you speak about butchering languages, please have in mind, that it's Hippeis and not hippies (:hippie:). Sorry, but that is a difference :laugh4:. Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam.

Edit:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2182/1796006939_056c586498.jpg?v=1193669095

Cute Wolf

06-04-2009, 11:34

@Zett...
Nice hippeis model here...:laugh4:

BTW, these men comes cheap (Hippeis) compared than their Xyxtophoroi seniors, and they still could do some significant damage when charging from the back... and I found they can quickly dispatch enemy prodromoi.... But that's not surprisingly... Hippeis are just mediocre cavalry, but not bad yet...

@ All
Sorry if I have a bad english.... please forgive me... :shame:

IrishHitman

06-04-2009, 21:27

For one, my grammar and vocabulary is impeccable. Anyone who knows me can attest to this, especially if they are from the EB Tavern. Secondly, I am asexual, so that crosses out the second option as well.

Care to explain why you're asexual?
Not participating in the most basic of social activities is a CRIME, DAMN IT!

Aemilius Paulus

06-04-2009, 21:42

Care to explain why you're asexual?
Not participating in the most basic of social activities is a CRIME, DAMN IT!

How about you ask that on my Profile, through a Visitor Message, OK :beam:? I would not like to derail this long-standing thread :yes:

Cute Wolf

06-08-2009, 13:49

athanaric

06-08-2009, 14:30

just back to topic, ok?

And how did u supposed to defeat this stack with this stack...
You (Ptolemaioi)
1x Somatophylakes Strategou
4x Machimoi
1x Sphendonetai
2x Machimoi Hippeis

Enemy (Arche Seleukeia)
7x Pantodapoi Phalangitai
2x Gund-i Palta
2x Asiatikoi Hippakontistai

(If I replace "Machimoi" with "Hoplitai Haploi" I will surely win...)

Actually, I think that's very much possible, given your cavalry superiority. The key to winning such an engagement is to draw the enemy units away from their main force one by one. Try to kill the enemy cavalry first (with the slingers etc.) without losing too much of your own cavalry. Then you can focus on the skirmishers (one of your infantry units plus the cavalry should be able to rout them. The rest is just defeating the phalanx units one by one the Arabian way, which involves a lot of running, kiting, baiting, shooting and flanking. Your General will eventually be able to deliver the "killing blow".

Btw. I once managed to defeat a group of 2 Machimoi Phalangitai and 1 Machimoi unit(s) with only 1 unit of Arabian light cavalry and 1 unit of Sabaean Citizen Cavalry.

Ca Putt

06-08-2009, 14:38

I didn't test it yet but from the looks of it I'd simply say you don't combine Macimoi with Sphendotai and machimoi Hippeis. I'd rather combine them with Hoplitai haploi:

Machimoi are not lineholders but line breakers. the suggested army has stready battle line that can hold while the machimoi or machimoi hippeis charge in from the flank/back

edit: oh the arabian way, sorry I always do it the KH way :D.

HansDuet

06-13-2009, 12:58

Alright. After significant amount of Carthagin'...

Surprisingly Bad:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kar_elite_african_pikes.gif

Only pikemen you get, I guess they are alright but they are supposed to be elite, which they are not since they seem to be pretty much par with much cheaper Clerouchoi. They'll hold the line alright but against Hellenic pikemen they'll lose.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kar_numidian_cavalry.gif

The famed Numidian cavalry? Alright, they are cheap but still they should have something to live up their reputation. I tried to use them against Roman heavy infantry, but their javelins barely scratched them. Equites Caetratii do the job of light cavalry better.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kar_balearic_light_infantry.gif

Okay, another famed unit. Maybe I didn't use them right (flank and charge) but they seem to be just Caetratii with greater price. Or are they just really expensive skirmishers?

Surprisingly Good units:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_picked_libypho.gif

I know, they are elite, they are supposed to be good but these guys are better than good. Heavy armor, elite, spear and ap axe as backup? Extremely versatile battle winners. My elite army consisted mostly of these guys and they defeated Roman and Gaelic infantry. In the end that army was gold chevroned Sacred Band cav and Silver chevroned these guys. Couple of Numidian archers.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_cavalry_libyphoenician.gif

Very good cavalry. Do their job almost as well as Sacred Band cavalry, with lower price. Pretty much conquered Iberia by spamming these from Gader.
They last long in melee and were extremely effective against Lusotani light infantry and cavalry.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/kart-hadast/kart_numidian_archers.gif

Very good archers. And guess what is their melee weapon? Ap-mace. Tells everything.

option

06-13-2009, 14:23

After a healthy dosage of Pontic rule, I think I'm well-versed enough to do one of these...

Surprisingly Good:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pontos_katpatuka_zanteush.gif

LOVE these guys. Great flanking troops, and the AP axe eats Seleukid bodyguards for breakfast.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/p/chariots.jpg

Wrong chariots, but the Pontic ones aren't on the website. I've heard endless complaints about these guys, and while they ARE expensive and somewhat fragile, they're devastating if used correctly. They shred cavalry (in one of my recent battles, they destroyed two units of Kinsman heavy cav while taking 8 casualties), destroy formations and have a very nice moral effect. Similar to elephants in that they require proper use to be any good at all, but I make sure to include a unit or two in all my full stacks now.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/eleutheroi/celtic/rebel_mist_keltohellenikoi.gif

Considering the majority of the Pontic factional infantry are terrible, I've been abusing these guys lately. They can hold their own against just about anything, and can even pin phalanxes in place if need be, and the Pontic variant have insanely cool shields. I've got Ankyra pumping out a steady stream of them.

Surprisingly Bad:

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_katpatuka_asabara.gif

What are these guys good for? Incredibly expensive, far too fragile in melee and poor stamina. Asian light cav is much better for less money.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pon_pantodapoi_phalangitai.gif

If you thought any moron could be given a sarissa and 240 comrades and be expected to hold a battle line reasonably well, think again. Every time I have these guys facing off against even Klerouchoi Phalangitai, they seem to get inexplicably shredded. Awful.

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pontos_pontic_thorakitai.gif

I figured with a name like 'elite' they might be good. I was wrong.

Marcus Ulpius

06-13-2009, 14:53

@ Option:

Pantodapoi Phalangitai are not supposed to be better than Cleruchoi Phalangitai. The former are native levies armed in Hellenic style. The later are Hellenic immigrants and professional soldiers of the Diadochi.

option

06-13-2009, 15:01

I'm well aware of that, I'm just saying that they're terrible and much worse than similar units that are only marginally more expensive.

Maion Maroneios

06-13-2009, 15:26

I must disagree on the Pantodapoi Phalangitai as well. They are supposed to be just a bunch of guys with minimal training, given a sarissa and an axe, as well as some minor equipment. They have bad morale, though that is to be expected from foreign levies serving a vast, multi-cultural Empire. Their axes are excellent, which makes them quite useful if you know how to use them.

Maion

HopliteElite

06-13-2009, 15:32

Pantodapoi Phalangitai surprisingly bad? AP axes, phalanx, 122 men on large, and only 330 upkeep? These guys are, if anything surpisingly good. These guys are levies and have always held their own very well in my campaigns against all but pezhetaroi or heavier phalanxes and those damned cats who steamroll just about anything.

option

06-13-2009, 15:47

Hmm, well I'm not a huge phalanx fan (nor am I all that skilled with them) so I may be misusing them, but they have yet to impress me. I never had problems using Phalangitai Deuteroi as Epeiros though, but the Pantodapoi always seem to take much higher casualties for some reason.

Maion Maroneios

06-13-2009, 16:00

Have you ever considered the fact that you might actually be facing deadlier enemies in the east? Lots of AP weapon-wielding units, lots of excellent archers and, of course, lots of deadly heavy cavalry.

Maion

option

06-13-2009, 16:10

Could be, but I've only fought the Seleukids thus far, and mostly low-mid level stacks at that. They were starting to go into Grey Death mode (doing things like destroying Pahlava and pushing deep enough to capture Chighu and Alexandreia), so I'll probably be fighting them exclusively for a while.

antisocialmunky

06-13-2009, 16:11

In Phalanx vs Phalanx, then you're going to die horribly with pantodapoi unless they too are using absolute craph phalanxes. These guys are axemen first, and phalangites second.

Apázlinemjó

06-13-2009, 16:17

https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/pontos/pontos_pontic_thorakitai.gif

I figured with a name like 'elite' they might be good. I was wrong.

Sadly, I have to agree with that, they can't even hold their lines, standard hoplites are much cheaper and better in that work (Post-Marians own them badly too). They aren't good flankers either, since don't have AP weapons and they are slow. If somebody wants a good sword unit as Pontos, then your target is Galatia.

P.S: They don't have 'elite' in their name.

Aemilius Paulus

06-13-2009, 16:35

HansDuet

06-13-2009, 16:58

Pantodopoi Phalangitai fills its role well. Its rather a surprisingly good unit.

Aemilius Paulus

06-13-2009, 17:16

Pantodopoi Phalangitai fills its role well. Its rather a surprisingly good unit.
I agree. In my current Eperios Campaign, the Levy Phalanxes rule the world. Levy Phalanxes are the best EB surprisingly good units, along with light under-hand spear cavalry. Levy Pikes can hold any non-pike/heavy cav unit at bay for almost infinite amount of time, especially in street battles, whether offensive or defensive. As a bonus, due to having 5 shield, a stat unequalled by any other non-pike unit, the phalangites are nearly impervious to frontal missile fire.

Watchman

06-13-2009, 18:22

Machimoi Phalangitai have 1 less armour than the Pantodapoi or Deuteroi. Deuteroi have a linthorax, whereas Machmoi have a padded vest. Also, both the Panatadapoi and machmoi have a 5-attack axe. Ridiculous. I modded the axe attack to 7 in my EDU. Five is just too low. Deuteroi have 7 sword attack. Keep all that in mind when you boast of the AP attack of the Eastern Levy Phalangites.Yeah well. Axes and maces take -1 to base attack value (to offset the AP and fairly high lethality), xiphos-type mid-sized swords give +1... see where that goes ?

Anyway, I've personally found the Panty pikes quite useful. But then again I don't even try to use them for "push of pike", but pin enemy pikes in place for flankers to destroy. Deep "box" formations and guardmode does well there.

As for the Pontic thorakitai, is that with or without the +2 to defskill (making it 11) recommended as a fix to make them viable ? (Goes for the closely related Hai armoured swordsmen too, incidentally.) The kit design is kinda bad, granted.

Marcus Ulpius

06-13-2009, 21:02

All phalanx units are surprisingly good simply because the AI has absolutely no clue how to fight them. The only thing that can trouble your army of levy phalanxes is the army of better phalanxes, but even then if you have some support troops you can still win the battle. With Macedonia I conquered Greece and kicked the AS out of western Asia Minor with levy phalanx armies.

Fierro

06-13-2009, 21:32

I agree. In my current Eperios Campaign, the Levy Phalanxes rule the world. Levy Phalanxes are the best EB surprisingly good units, along with light under-hand spear cavalry. Levy Pikes can hold any non-pike/heavy cav unit at bay for almost infinite amount of time, especially in street battles, whether offensive or defensive. As a bonus, due to having 5 shield, a stat unequalled by any other non-pike unit, the phalangites are nearly impervious to frontal missile fire.
What? In my current AS campaign my levy pikes get mauled by pretty much any unit other than light skirmishers/very light cavalry.
Pretty depressing seeing a cavalry unit charge right into a wall of pikes not only surviving but kicking the phalanx' ass.
(medium difficulty btw)

I think I might just have terrible luck though.
People are always complaining of the AI doing stupid things and pretty much every battle being a breeze. For me the AI may still be retarded but everything that can go wrong usually does. Very frustrating at times.

Aemilius Paulus

06-13-2009, 22:16

I think I might just have terrible luck though..
That, and mostly inexperience with phalanxes. As there are tens of tricks and various things you can do with a phalanx. Such as for one, put one phalanx on top of another, for extra pike density. And BTW, this is actually historical, as I do remember one EB Team member defending my tactic when I mentioned it in one of the past threads.

The whole point of a levy phalanx is that it can hold any infantry unit, absolutely regardless of its quality. I have destroyed the most elite and experienced units with the static levy phalanx, which they ground against.

Just remember, there are important weaknesses of a phalanx. One is heavy cavalry. It will get through the pikes and smash it, although this heavily depends on the circumstance. Most of the time, my double phalanx will hold the cavalry at bay, and dispatch any lone riders that get through. There are exceptions though. Sometimes cavalry will break through, although much of the time, it will lose the fight, especially against the axe-armed levy phalangites.

Then you have the enemy phalanxes. An enemy phalanx is the other of the two great dangers to your levy phalanx. However, I have never yet been beaten by an enemy phalanx, despite fielding the Epriote Deuteroi Phalangitai. The reason for that is mostly because AI will attack at an angle, meaning that while their pikes are still reaching for my soldiers, my pikes are already grinding their blokes. In any case, a duel with an enemy phalanx will decimate yours, unless you bring other units in the fray.

After those two man dangers, you have the minor ones. One of them is enemy officers/generals. I mean the single officer soldier and the single general soldier, not the units their in. While the rest of the bodyguard is held by the pikes, a general will often get through and chop down your phalangites one by one. His hydra-like hitpoints and high weapon stats will decimate your phalanx.

Officers have a similar although less significant effect. They too have numerous hitpoints and powerful weapons, enabling them to break through alone and wreak havoc. I had a single Hastati officer break through my 3-experience pikes and kill 25 of them ALONE before his unit routed. Scary stuff. What I normally do is get another unit to move in the place where the officer/general is attacking, and let them kill him, as the phalangites' pikes take forever to kill something.

The final weaknesses of your phalanxes are flanking and not getting enough time to form up. You can, through prudence, protect yourself against both, but the latter one is the most crucial one, although the latter problem only arises in street battles. Remember that the phalangites, once they stop, have to have some time to form up, until the yellow arrows indicating movement are gone from their unit card. Alternatively, to make them do it faster, you can press "Backspace" numerous times. Only when they halt and finally rearrange, only then can you order them to form a phalanx. If ordered earlier, the phalangites will do their dreaded rearrangement move, where they all get into a circle and I am sure you ahve seen it before...

Last tip: when fighting in the phalanx mode, remember to continuously press "Backspace" for the soldiers to switch to pikes and to stop fighting (the red crassed-swords icon) as a pike phalanx only needs to stand still as the enemy sewers themselves onto the pikes. Otherwise, your phalangites will become tired.

HansDuet

06-13-2009, 22:21

What? In my current AS campaign my levy pikes get mauled by pretty much any unit other than light skirmishers/very light cavalry.
Pretty depressing seeing a cavalry unit charge right into a wall of pikes not only surviving but kicking the phalanx' ass.
(medium difficulty btw)

Well they are levies, the crappiest of the crappiest and really not meant for beating anything in fair fight. However, they are cheap numbers and can make a difference by holding enemy still those seconds you need to maneuver your cavalry behind the enemy lines and... bang.

Very useful.

A Very Super Market

06-13-2009, 23:31

That would be against the point of a phalanx, or any other long speared weapon. Their main goal is to keep the enemy at bay, and leave the unit itself relatively safe. I don't know what difficulty you're playing on, but if your phalanxes last a few seconds before disintegrating, someting is wrong.

K-Dogs

06-13-2009, 23:59

Surprisingly Bad
https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/units/casse/casse_balroae.gif

I know these bad boys have been mentioned already, but i don't really agree with the guy who said they were amazing. Maybe I got caught up in the hype, "the people the romans couldn't conquer", or that that quote from Tacitus by the Caledonian leader, but trekking up into the highlands as the Casse on my first campaign, I was expecting something a bit cooler, or more numerous, when I got up into scotland.

They just seemed to drop like flies when I sent in Lugoae, maybe in greater numbers they would have been effective, or maybe a defense script for a nice chevroned army of them. I was playing on VH/H, and it was pretty anticlimactic.

Getting the message, 'you've united britain' or whatever was a bit strange after I just crushed their tiny army.
And they're no use once you invade the continent because the AOR is so bloody far away from anywhere else.

Fierro

06-14-2009, 03:17

That, and mostly inexperience with phalanxes. As there are tens of tricks and various things you can do with a phalanx. Such as for one, put one phalanx on top of another, for extra pike density. And BTW, this is actually historical, as I do remember one EB Team member defending my tactic when I mentioned it in one of the past threads.

The whole point of a levy phalanx is that it can hold any infantry unit, absolutely regardless of its quality. I have destroyed the most elite and experienced units with the static levy phalanx, which they ground against.

Just remember, there are important weaknesses of a phalanx. One is heavy cavalry. It will get through the pikes and smash it, although this heavily depends on the circumstance. Most of the time, my double phalanx will hold the cavalry at bay, and dispatch any lone riders that get through. There are exceptions though. Sometimes cavalry will break through, although much of the time, it will lose the fight, especially against the axe-armed levy phalangites.

Then you have the enemy phalanxes. An enemy phalanx is the other of the two great dangers to your levy phalanx. However, I have never yet been beaten by an enemy phalanx, despite fielding the Epriote Deuteroi Phalangitai. The reason for that is mostly because AI will attack at an angle, meaning that while their pikes are still reaching for my soldiers, my pikes are already grinding their blokes. In any case, a duel with an enemy phalanx will decimate yours, unless you bring other units in the fray.

After those two man dangers, you have the minor ones. One of them is enemy officers/generals. I mean the single officer soldier and the single general soldier, not the units their in. While the rest of the bodyguard is held by the pikes, a general will often get through and chop down your phalangites one by one. His hydra-like hitpoints and high weapon stats will decimate your phalanx.

Officers have a similar although less significant effect. They too have numerous hitpoints and powerful weapons, enabling them to break through alone and wreak havoc. I had a single Hastati officer break through my 3-experience pikes and kill 25 of them ALONE before his unit routed. Scary stuff. What I normally do is get another unit to move in the place where the officer/general is attacking, and let them kill him, as the phalangites' pikes take forever to kill something.

The final weaknesses of your phalanxes are flanking and not getting enough time to form up. You can, through prudence, protect yourself against both, but the latter one is the most crucial one, although the latter problem only arises in street battles. Remember that the phalangites, once they stop, have to have some time to form up, until the yellow arrows indicating movement are gone from their unit card. Alternatively, to make them do it faster, you can press "Backspace" numerous times. Only when they halt and finally rearrange, only then can you order them to form a phalanx. If ordered earlier, the phalangites will do their dreaded rearrangement move, where they all get into a circle and I am sure you ahve seen it before...

Last tip: when fighting in the phalanx mode, remember to continuously press "Backspace" for the soldiers to switch to pikes and to stop fighting (the red crassed-swords icon) as a pike phalanx only needs to stand still as the enemy sewers themselves onto the pikes. Otherwise, your phalangites will become tired.

Thanks for the post.
I agree that one of my weaknesses might be not getting enough time to form up. City battles have a tendency of really making me want to break my keyboard in half! Why is it that the pathfinding is so screwed up? random spots will be inaccessible, formations will run into invisible obstacles and the entire formation will be broken. The city square makes absolutely no sense as sometimes units will run to a far corner corner when you only tell them to move 5 steps to the front. I've had phalanxes in the street sometimes do a full three rotations before finally being in formation, then there's always one or two slow guys that have to run to their spot and THEN do all the pikes finally come down adn the phalanx acts as a single unit but by then the enemy's swords are already covered in phalanx blood..

Apázlinemjó

06-14-2009, 07:46

As for the Pontic thorakitai, is that with or without the +2 to defskill (making it 11) recommended as a fix to make them viable ? (Goes for the closely related Hai armoured swordsmen too, incidentally.) The kit design is kinda bad, granted.

Without +2 defskill, although I don't think it would change the situation that much.

AttilaDerHunn

06-14-2009, 12:24

lusotanan infantry are killers on the walls,caetrati wasted my loricati scutarii on the walls,and the ambakaro almost wiped out my vollorix

:dizzy2:

Watchman

06-14-2009, 15:29

Without +2 defskill, although I don't think it would change the situation that much.Of course it does. The units are *all about* their stats.

Apázlinemjó

06-14-2009, 20:44

Of course it does. The units are *all about* their stats.

But +2 def skill? I don't think it's enough then, I'd played some custom battles, comparing these guys to other units, like Post Marians, Thracian Peltastai, German Swordsmen and such, and well...they lost, badly.

Watchman

06-14-2009, 21:03

Their problem is that they're too lightly armoured and shielded for their tactical role; slightly lighter than eg. Marian legionaries, though they are of superior skill level, and noticeably lighter than the common Thorakitai of the same quality level. Compare:
;504
type eastern infantry pontic thorakitai
dictionary eastern_infantry_pontic_thorakitai ; Pontic Thorakitai
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier eastern_infantry_mardig_georgian_swordsmen_pontic_thorakitai_parthohellenikoi_thureophoroi, 40, 0, 1.15, 0.25
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 6, 4, javelin, 35, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 12, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 9, 9, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, -2
stat_mental 13, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1813, 453, 196, 374, 1813
ownership carthage
;241
type roman infantry legionary cohort i
dictionary roman_infantry_legionary_cohort_i ; Cohortes Reformata
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type General_1
soldier roman_infantry_cohorsreformata, 50, 0, 1.18, 0.25
officer ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer ebofficer_roman_early_standard
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy
formation 1, 2, 2, 3, 5, square, testudo
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 4, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec 11, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 10, 8, 4, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 0, 0, -2, -2
stat_mental 14, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1790, 448, 100, 160, 1790
ownership seleucid, slave
;177
type greek infantry thorakitai
dictionary greek_infantry_thorakitai ; Thorakitai
category infantry
class spearmen
voice_type Female_1
soldier carthaginian_infantry_lybianspearmen_thorakitai_scortamavera, 40, 0, 1.18, 0.25
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
mount_effect elephant -1
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
formation 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, square
stat_health 1, 1
stat_pri 6, 6, javelin, 35, 3, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown
stat_sec 15, 6, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr light_spear
stat_pri_armour 12, 9, 3, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 5
stat_ground 0, 0, -2, -3
stat_mental 13, normal, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 1910, 478, 40, 60, 1910
ownership romans_brutii, romans_julii, greek_cities, numidia, thrace21 to 22 or 24 totals; the +2 ought to RATHER help bridge the gap. (Ditto for the virtually identical Armenian heavy swordsmen, natch.)
On the plus side, they're faster moving than the other two and "hardy", unlike the usual Thoras.