Tried to rob the wrong house.... [Archive]

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Devastatin Dave

02-12-2009, 03:33

http://www.counton2.com/cbd/news/national/article/gun_battle_in_a_neighborhood/20524/

I guess these guys were use to sissy-:daisy: waiting for the cops to show, but instead got a lesson on the 2nd ammendment. Is the owner right to defend himself or should he let Pablo and the gang Alamo his :daisy: because "only cops should have guns"?

Sasaki Kojiro

02-12-2009, 03:49

http://www.counton2.com/cbd/news/national/article/gun_battle_in_a_neighborhood/20524/

I guess these guys were use to sissy-:daisy: waiting for the cops to show, but instead got a lesson on the 2nd ammendment. Is the owner right to defend himself or should he let Pablo Jesus and the gang Alamo his :daisy: because "only cops should have guns"?

Fixed :laugh4:

Crazed Rabbit

02-12-2009, 04:36

:cool:

It illustrates several points;

the utility of normal and high-capacity magazines
the benefit of having a gun easily accessible and not locked away in a safe
the benefit of being prepared to take action
the usefulness of security cameras
that owning a gun, unlike anything else, enabled one man to drive off multiple, similarly armed, attackers

Some people who bleat on about how having a gun just means the criminals will get guns or more people and then you'll be no better off should take a long hard look at that last point.

CR

LittleGrizzly

02-12-2009, 10:39

Took a long hard look at the last point... would still prefer not to have uk criminals armed to the teeth and me similarly disarmed rather than have both of us 'packing'

Fragony

02-12-2009, 10:43

Good surveillance camara, lotsa pixels.

rory_20_uk

02-12-2009, 11:10

A study where n=1... What do we call that? Oh yes - worthless.

~:smoking:

Vladimir

02-12-2009, 14:23

There is significantly more to this story than 2nd amendment issues.

Husar

02-12-2009, 16:33

A study where n=1... What do we call that? Oh yes - worthless.

~:smoking:

Don't forget the hole in the neighbor's house. What do we call that? Oh yes - property damage and endangering others.

Crazed Rabbit

02-12-2009, 16:50

Took a long hard look at the last point... would still prefer not to have uk criminals armed to the teeth and me similarly disarmed rather than have both of us 'packing'

So you could have four men beating up on you instead of fleeing? I see.

What do we call that? Oh yes - property damage and endangering others.

Legally? I doubt it.

CR

Seamus Fermanagh

02-12-2009, 17:02

So you could have four men beating up on you instead of fleeing? I see.

Legally? I doubt it.

CR

Basic disconnet CR, again, on this issue. To some people, increasing the risk to your own life (even slightly) by using firearms for defense is not justified in the defense of one's property. Property is not viewed as integral to the individual as it is in our more Lockean system here in the USA. In fact, a number of others would probably assert that the increased risk to the intruder's life is not justified in the defense of property.

And it is an increased risk to you to possess firearms and actively use them to defend self or property. For the most part, it is rare for the armed intruder to kill the person who seeks to flee or passively awaits whatever the armed intruder chooses to do. If you produce a firearm, you actually do increase the statistical chance you'll end up dead, and even though you have greatly increased your chance to finish the encounter without material loss, many would not agree with the worth of such a choice.

Crazed Rabbit

02-12-2009, 17:37

Basic disconnet CR, again, on this issue. To some people, increasing the risk to your own life (even slightly) by using firearms for defense is not justified in the defense of one's property. Property is not viewed as integral to the individual as it is in our more Lockean system here in the USA. In fact, a number of others would probably assert that the increased risk to the intruder's life is not justified in the defense of property.

I didn't think we were talking about defense of property, but LittleGrizzly can clarify that.

And it is an increased risk to you to possess firearms and actively use them to defend self or property. For the most part, it is rare for the armed intruder to kill the person who seeks to flee or passively awaits whatever the armed intruder chooses to do. If you produce a firearm, you actually do increase the statistical chance you'll end up dead, and even though you have greatly increased your chance to finish the encounter without material loss, many would not agree with the worth of such a choice.

Hmm. Are you sure? I remember seeing data that suggests otherwise (http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdgeff.html). Importantly, people using guns for defense faced more difficult circumstances (which might cause them to use guns in defense):

These data indicate that victims who use guns for self-protection actually face less favorable circumstances than other victims, and that the post-self-protection injury rates for defensive gun use, low though they are, may still be misleadingly high compared to to other self-protection measures because victims who used guns faced tougher crime circumstances.

CR

Xiahou

02-12-2009, 19:30

Well, 4 men armed with assault rifles probably weren't there to steal his TV. I suspect they were there to assassinate someone.

There is significantly more to this story than 2nd amendment issues.:yes:
Nothing about this incident sounds random. The attackers sound more like hired killers and the victim's reaction seems to indicate he was expecting such an attack on some level.

Idaho

02-12-2009, 19:45

:laugh4: So what Dave is in fact bigging up is a feud between criminal gangs. Great! I'm gonna get me a shotgun!

Adrian II

02-12-2009, 20:11

:laugh4: So what Dave is in fact bigging up is a feud between criminal gangs. Great! I'm gonna get me a shotgun!:laugh3:

Oh God, speaking of shooting yourself in the foot...

Strike For The South

02-12-2009, 20:56

Tucson is an utter ****hole.

Xiahou

02-12-2009, 21:14

:laugh4: So what Dave is in fact bigging up is a feud between criminal gangs. Great! I'm gonna get me a shotgun!I think that remains to be seen, but it's definitely an odd situation.

Regardless, even if the worst were true and this was a Mexican drug cartel's hit squad sent to take the guy out, the point that one armed man can hold off several better armed men, would stand even stronger. Whether the victim turns out to be a druglord or a the victim of mistaken identity, it still illustrates that point nicely. :shrug:

rory_20_uk

02-12-2009, 21:42

I think that remains to be seen, but it's definitely an odd situation.

Regardless, even if the worst were true and this was a Mexican drug cartel's hit squad sent to take the guy out, the point that one armed man can hold off several better armed men, would stand even stronger. Whether the victim turns out to be a druglord or a the victim of mistaken identity, it still illustrates that point nicely. :shrug:

And if there were claymore mines on the driveway it'd be better still.

~:smoking:

Xiahou

02-12-2009, 22:24

And if there were claymore mines on the driveway it'd be better still.

~:smoking:We should probably stick to security cameras. Mines might slow down your mail delivery. :yes:

Ice

02-12-2009, 23:26

A study where n=1... What do we call that? Oh yes - worthless.

~:smoking:

:balloon2:

Devastatin Dave

02-13-2009, 00:33

:laugh4: So what Dave is in fact bigging up is a feud between criminal gangs. Great! I'm gonna get me a shotgun!

Jump to conclusions much? Maybe the fact that the area in which the guy lives is infested with, well, anyway, sometimes citizens must take measures because the government won't do what its suppose to do because its too busy trying to save some sort of swamp mouse or assisting a homosexual congressman's boyfriends with their banks.
But I'd hate to generalise...

Idaho

02-13-2009, 13:36

assisting a homosexual congressman's boyfriends with their banks.
But I'd hate to generalise...

You are getting more and more Westboro Baptist by the week Dave :laugh4:

Nothing to do with global capitalism. Nothing to do with working people bailing out the failed projects of multi-millionaires.

No it's all about gays.

Major Robert Dump

02-14-2009, 19:18

I am appalled that this guy is not being charged for discharging a firearm. I mean seriously, what if those were just Airsoft Guns? Maybe those guys were looking for the paintball field and took a wrong turn and now he's made them late for the PanAmerican Paintball Tournament? Is he gonna re-imburse them for the entry fee?????

People should really be shot or dying before being able to defend themselves with deadly force

BTW Dave your post reminds me of a local "civil rights" leader who tried to sue to have the states conceal-and-carry law stricken because it was discriminatory. His rationale was that blacks and hispanics could not afford the cost of the licensing fees and a handgun. It was summarily dismissed 10 minutes after he showed up to court.

Devastatin Dave

02-15-2009, 03:34

BTW Dave your post reminds me of a local "civil rights" leader who tried to sue to have the states conceal-and-carry law stricken because it was discriminatory. His rationale was that blacks and hispanics could not afford the cost of the licensing fees and a handgun. It was summarily dismissed 10 minutes after he showed up to court.

It is discriminatory if the fee for the license is too expesive for people, not neccessarily blacks or hispanics but whomever is poor, and keeps them from having the means to protect themselves.

Husar

02-15-2009, 14:18

It is discriminatory if the fee for the license is too expesive for people, not neccessarily blacks or hispanics but whomever is poor, and keeps them from having the means to protect themselves.

Pfeh, thoze lazy no-goods should get off their couch and TV and get a job!

KukriKhan

02-15-2009, 16:08

Seamus Fermanagh

02-15-2009, 16:24

Hosakawa Tito

02-15-2009, 17:46

I don't have a link (yet), but I've heard ammunition sales in the US are at historic highs (as are the prices), and stocks are falling. Some second-tier ammo retailers can't get stock re-supply quickly enough. The stuff is flying off the shelves.

Sounds like middle-america is arming up. I think I'm a little worried about this.

That's why I roll my own. "If bullets cost $5,000 apiece there'd be no innocent bystanders. I'd blow your headoff if I could afford it." :laugh4:*Chris Rock* I'd post the youtube link but the language is not PG13. Funny stuff.

The right to use deadly physical force to protect one's life or another's, and home from the threat of imminent harm or death comes with many responsibilities too. A man's home is his castle and no citizen is required to retreat from it. All states have statutes in their penal code that deal with this, and they do vary somewhat. From what I see on this video this homeowner appeared okay, legally speaking, until the perps retreated into their vehicle to leave and he fired those shots into the windshield. In my state, once the aggressor has retreated, indicated verbally or physically to stop their use of deadly physical force, then one cannot use or continue to use deadly physical force against them. In other words, if the thief is running out your door with your property you can't shoot him in the back and claim you were afraid for your life.

There appears much more to this story than a simple attempt of armed robbery. This may have been a gang related attempt at assassination or kidnaping. How did the authorities know the name of one of the perps? Identified by the victim or was the perp known by police from other encounters?

I support the right of all to defend themselves and others including their homes using deadly physical force if it comes to that, within the guidelines spelled out in the NYS Penal Code. However, I believe the homeowner depicted in this video has crossed the line and could be/should be charged.

Major Robert Dump

02-15-2009, 19:56

They probably got his name when he sought treatment for the injury. Hospitals are required by most state laws to notify cops of such injuries.

Likely more than just a 2-bit burglary attempt, but these guys were far from professional hitmen. More like bungling retards. I'm guessing local drug gang of ignorant thugs, or maybe just some run of the mill gangstas he made angry. If it was cartel that whole scene would have played out much more differently

Whacker

02-16-2009, 09:24

I have a couple of thoughts here.

First, my position on if this bloke went too far with the gunshots through the windshield. I'm going to agree with about 95% of what Hosakawa said in his previous post. The only part that I would further qualify/differ/embelish on would be where exactly to draw the line. I would first submit that what constitutes "retreat" can be a grey area. If a person or persons break and enter into someone's house and armed conflict ensues, a "shooting retreat" in my opinion does not qualify as "retreat". In other words, if the criminals keep shooting at me but are running out, I believe that shooting back is still fair game as the conflict is still on. Thus, if the perps in the article kept firing but were attempting to get back into their vehicle, then I think this guy is justified putting rounds through the windshield. The conflict isn't over until they either drop their weapons and are running full tilt away, or have stopped firing and are running away full tilt. Shooting = attacking = conflict.

Second, I would echo Hosakawa's sentiment about "a man's home is his castle" and castle doctrine. It is a place where people should feel safe and secure, and that the world is locked away outside the walls if needed. It is a refuge and place of well-being for one's family. Violating that sanctity is a very egregious act, however I don't believe that in of itself is worth a lethal response. My belief is and has been that if someone breaks into a house and the owners are present, that "sufficient" warning should be given to reveal their presense. In other words, shout at the top of one's lungs "WHO THE #@$ IS THERE!?!?!?" to clearly indicate they are home. If the perp flees, then the purpose is served and the authorities can deal with the situation when they arrive. If the perp(s) hear this and STAY,then I believe it has just escalated into a life or death situation. Knowingly remaining in someone's house when one has broken and entered indicates to me that they recognize they represent a real and deadly threat to the residents yet choose to remain (to plunder or to cause physical harm, it doesn't matter at that point). If those conditions are met, I believe that a lethal response is warranted. If the perp survives and flees, actually flees, then one must stop their response. Otherwise, they should be able to fight to protect themselves and their family.

Third, and this is just my musing, I am going to wager a guess that most of the people who don't believe that any kind of lethal response in protection of one's home and family do not have homes and families of their own. As food for thought, I would submit that when one gets married and has a family, especially children of their own, the need to protect them goes through the roof. At least that is how I was raised. Anyone breaking into my house when we are home represents a real and true dangerous and deadly threat to myself but most importantly my wife and eventual children. I know exactly what the point is that I would kill another human being, and that is it, to protect my family.

Husar

02-16-2009, 13:30

I agree with that Whacker, if someone came into my home to stay while I was there I'd really start to think darwinistic, I wouldn't even care about any laws, not just because I don't know the exact laws.

Papewaio

02-16-2009, 22:24

Video clip was interesting.

The reporters surname Merino is a bred of sheep in Australia. :laugh4:

I think retreating would be once they have stopped firing and have left the premises. There is no indication that the car isn't going to do a ram raid or other action until it has left.

Lethal response to protect ones life, I can buy that argument. Protecting bricks and mortar, I don't think merits a lethal response. We can't resurrect someone with insurance, not even bandit Jesus in the video clip. However insurance will cover any property damage, so pay up the insurance, new for old and let the bandits in, while you escape out the back... then do a Keyser Söze and molotov the house with the perps inside if you must.

As for family, well guns are tools and should be taught with the proper respect. But just like cars they can also endanger the users and the families that use them. They are not automatically a safer overall option to have.

Xiahou

02-16-2009, 22:53

I think retreating would be once they have stopped firing and have left the premises. There is no indication that the car isn't going to do a ram raid or other action until it has left.Indeed. Maybe they went to the car to regroup, rearm or get moltov cocktails- who knows? I don't have any problem with someone continuing to fire until the criminal has left the premises. The only time I think the homeowner may have gone too far is those instances where they chases their attackers down the street with guns blazing.

Husar

02-17-2009, 02:23

Well, of course you have to be afraid of a ram attack if you have one of those american cardbox houses that almost collapse when someone sneezes. ~;)

The rest seems a bit far-fetched, like they would rearm 5 meters away from the armed homeowner and to get a molotow cocktail out of the car there is no need to have four people firmly planted on the seats of the car.

Xiahou

02-17-2009, 02:41

like they would rearm 5 meters away from the armed homeownerI think you get the point then. By continuing to engage his attackers until they have fled the area, he made certain that they weren't up to anything else. Had he just hunkered down inside his house when they ran for the car he would've given up the initiative allowing them to regroup if they decided to. The homeowner made sure that wasn't a possibility.

Idaho

02-17-2009, 11:51

I think you get the point then. By continuing to engage his attackers until they have fled the area, he made certain that they weren't up to anything else. Had he just hunkered down inside his house when they ran for the car he would've given up the initiative allowing them to regroup if they decided to. The homeowner made sure that wasn't a possibility.

:laugh4: You yanks are hilarious. If someone in this country talked about the armed defence of their home like this people would assume they were mad or joking. We are so far away from the kind of thinking and gun prevalance that precipitate discussing skirmish tactics in a domestic setting. If you lot want to live in a state of tooled up seige - then go for it. It makes our insane obsession with CCTV seem pleasantly comic in comparason.

Husar

02-17-2009, 11:59

:laugh4: You yanks are hilarious. If someone in this country talked about the armed defence of their home like this people would assume they were mad or joking. We are so far away from the kind of thinking and gun prevalance that precipitate discussing skirmish tactics in a domestic setting. If you lot want to live in a state of tooled up seige - then go for it. It makes our insane obsession with CCTV seem pleasantly comic in comparason.

Now that you say it, I agree, as much as I'd like to defend my life with desperate measures, I'd prefer living in a country where that isn't really necessary in the first place.

KukriKhan

02-17-2009, 16:45

Now that you say it, I agree, as much as I'd like to defend my life with desperate measures, I'd prefer living in a country where that isn't really necessary in the first place.

... because every resident is watched every moment of every day in every activity to insure "peace", and compliance with the collective good, as determined by Substantial Sibling.

Idaho

02-17-2009, 17:06

... because every resident is watched every moment of every day in every activity to insure "peace", and compliance with the collective good, as determined by Substantial Sibling.

Most of the CCTV stuff is completely pointless. 99.9% of it is never watched. The remaining .1% is evenly split between footage of crimes, which are rarely helped by the images, and footage of people having sex in public places.

Husar

02-17-2009, 23:35

... because every resident is watched every moment of every day in every activity to insure "peace", and compliance with the collective good, as determined by Substantial Sibling.

Oh, I'm not in favor of CCTV, apparently the UK also has a crime problem despite that.
Surely Germany also has crime but I don't know anyone here who would need a gun to feel relatively safe. Apparently that is not the case in the US. Wouldn't you like to have a gun but also know that you will probably never need it?

Evil_Maniac From Mars

02-17-2009, 23:51

Wouldn't you like to have a gun but also know that you will probably never need it?

I think that is how the vast majority of Americans feel.

KukriKhan

02-17-2009, 23:53

Oh, I'm not in favor of CCTV, apparently the UK also has a crime problem despite that.
Surely Germany also has crime but I don't know anyone here who would need a gun to feel relatively safe. Apparently that is not the case in the US. Wouldn't you like to have a gun but also know that you will probably never need it?

That is precisely were I stand.

Sasaki Kojiro

02-18-2009, 00:03

America according to Idaho:

https://img102.imageshack.us/img102/8805/ganwjftosgkx3.jpg

Americans according to Idaho:

https://img102.imageshack.us/img102/8498/americanwhupasspy5.jpg

Ok...that last picture is actually completely accurate :sweatdrop::laugh4:

Idaho

02-18-2009, 11:57

It's not so much my view - but the view you terrify yourselves with. The mentality that discusses "home defence" with automatic weapons.

rory_20_uk

02-18-2009, 12:27

In the UK we stab people. In the USA they shoot each other. Seems like they're happy with the death rate the way it is.

Bit to be honest it's as much the people as it is the weaponry.

~:smoking: