ETWs in game languages

[Fisherking]

This should make it harder for me to get off topic.

CA has promised us that soldiers in the game will speak the language of their factions.

I sure hope they do, but I don’t know how much thought they actually gave this.

I am sure once the game is out we will be sharp shooting this in serious detail.

As I pointed out in another thread the Brits and Americans sounded British.

At the time there was not much difference in the way they sounded…but it was more like Americans than Estuary British we here today.

Next…Just wait until the German speakers get hold of the game! If the Austrians and Bavarians sound like the Hanoverians or the Prussians… well I am sure they are going to hear about it…And I haven’t even brought in the Swiss yet…

And what about the Native American factions? If the Sioux and the Iroquois are speaking the same language…well some of us will know!

This might tend to get really nasty if you know what I mean…Languages are great and having the right one is special…I hope we see their efforts. And I hope they were at least some what conscientious in their efforts.

But if past games are any indicator, every tiny mistake is going to be pointed out to them.

I hope the men from Courland and Poland aren’t speaking the same language…And Ben Franklin had better not sound like Winston Churchill….

[Vuk]

This should make it harder for me to get off topic.

CA has promised us that soldiers in the game will speak the language of their factions.

I sure hope they do, but I don’t know how much though they actually gave this.

I am sure once the game is out we will be sharp shooting this in serious detail.

As I pointed out in another thread the Brits and Americans sounded British.

At the time there was not much difference in the way they sounded…but it was more like Americans than Estuary British we here today.

Next…Just wait until the German speakers get hold of the game! If the Austrians and Bavarians sound like the Hanoverians or the Prussians… well I am sure they are going to hear about it…And I haven’t even brought in the Swiss yet…

And what about the Native American factions? If the Sioux and the Iroquois are speaking the same language…well some of us will know!

This might tend to get really nasty if you know what I mean…Languages are great and having the right one is special…I hope we see their efforts. And I hope they were at least some what conscientious in their efforts.

But if past games are any indicator, every tiny mistake is going to be pointed out to them.

I hope the men from Courland and Poland aren’t speaking the same language…And Ben Franklin had better not sound like Winston Churchill….

If they do not have Hungarian troops speak Maygar I will stand outside their fricking study and protest! Actually, I will bring some of my friends from Magyarorszag to the study and have them volunteer to do the voices for free. Then they would have no choice but to put out a Magyar voice fix patch. :D Something like that is really important, so I hope that they do not have them speaking OstDeutsch or something. :P

[Marten]

I do have a question:


CA has promised us that soldiers in the game will speak the language of their factions.

Only in battles or does it mean also on campaign map? No more "cheap porn movie talk" from a french general (in german with a daffy accent)? :laugh4:

[Marten]

My biggest concern is that this from of address will get lost in the localization, just read the mission description: "You are requested and required to ..." :2thumbsup:

http://static.4players.de/premium/Screenshots/ee/ba/1900248-medium.jpg

[Fisherking]

I do have a question:



Only in battles or does it mean also on campaign map? No more "cheap porn movie talk" from a french general (in german with a daffy accent)? :laugh4:

I have never played the German version and so far as I know the voices my only be in the English version.

The Prussians could easily sound like they came from the Allguä or the Austrians came from Hanover.

I am sure they will still have funny things to say however…we will just see…

[Vuk]

My biggest concern is that this from of address will get lost in the localization, just read the mission description: "You are requested and required to ..." :2thumbsup:

http://static.4players.de/premium/Screenshots/ee/ba/1900248-medium.jpg

Could I see a larger version of that please?

[Marten]

Could I see a larger version of that please?

Of course, here is the link to the screenshots from the 4players.de preview:

http://www.4players.de/4players.php/screenshot_list/PC-CDROM/9391/Screenshots/0/0/Empire_Total_War.html

Use the arrow on the right to scroll down to this specific screen.

[Sir Beane]

Of course, here is the link to the screenshots from the 4players.de preview:

http://www.4players.de/4players.php/screenshot_list/PC-CDROM/9391/Screenshots/0/0/Empire_Total_War.html

Use the arrow on the right to scroll down to this specific screen.

There are some fantastic screenshots if you follow that link.

There a screenshot of the diplomatic option. 'Present State Gift'. You can give money costing 2500. A horse for 5000, and what looks like crown jewels for 10000.

The Huron Confederacy and the Iroquois Confederacy are definitely in the game. At least in the RTI campaign.

You can name forts!

[Vuk]

Sweet, thanks. Several things that I saw scare me, but I will not say anything till I get the game and see...


EDIT: I heard lots of people saying that they wanted it in M2TW, so I am not sure if anyone knows, but you can rename Cities, Castles, and Factions ingame in M2TW.

[Barkhorn1x]

Looks like CA is attempting to do some cool things here with Language - but - given the many factions and dialect possibilities, they are bound to disappoint.

For example - although the troops will shout out commands in the most common native tongues (Engish, French, German, Spanish, Russian??) I doubt that there will be Magyar or native american languages included.

And, there is really no getting away from the "movie language" issue as we all don't speak these languages and the - admittedly cheesy -"flavor" is better than no accent at all.

[Vuk]

Looks like CA is attempting to do some cool things here with Language - but - given the many factions and dialect possibilities, they are bound to disappoint.

For example - although the troops will shout out commands in the most common native tongues (Engish, French, German, Spanish, Russian??) I doubt that there will be Magyar or native american languages included.

And, there is really no getting away from the "movie language" issue as we all don't speak these languages and the - admittedly cheesy - flavor is better than no accent at all.

Magyar is no small, out of the way language, so I do not see why it should not be represented. The Magyar were some of the most influencial people of the time (not as much as Germans or French, granted, but VERY influencial none the less). They were extremely powerful, extremely wealthy, and culturally rich. If you would include Swedish, I do not see how you could not include Magyar. It is not like they will have a problem finding Magyar speakers to do the voices. I will be severely disappointed if they have Hungarian troops speaking German. :thumbsdown: Actually, I know quite a few Hungarians who play Total War, and it is them who raised this concern. The Hungarians (There are about 10million national Hungarians alone today) are VERY proud of their identity, and I think that CA not thinking them important enough (during a period when the Magyar people were extremely influencial throughout Europe) to represent their language in the game would be a recipe for a lot of disgruntled Hungarians. It is not like CA would have a hard time finding Hungarian voice actors (heck, my Magyar language teachers are linguistic experts and would probably be happy to record their voices) and it would not add much to the game size. I think that there is a very strong case for including Magyar (which if you have never heard it, is a very unique and beautiful language).

[Freedom Onanist]

This should make it harder for me to get off topic.As I pointed out in another thread the Brits and Americans sounded British.
Well at the time they would've sounded much closer to each other, though not how either sound today. In as much as they the settlers were colonial Brits they would've sounded British, certainly for gameplay purposes it makes sense.

[Vuk]

Well at the time they would've sounded much closer to each other, though not how either sound today. In as much as they the settlers were colonial Brits they would've sounded British, certainly for gameplay purposes it makes sense.

At that time though, British sounded much CLOSER (though not exactly like) to modern Americans than to modern British. It was a very raw and growling language and they graged their vowels out really long. That is the opinion of most important lingual experts I have heard at least.

[Fisherking]

Well at the time they would've sounded much closer to each other, though not how either sound today. In as much as they the settlers were colonial Brits they would've sounded British, certainly for gameplay purposes it makes sense.

Gosh! Here we go again!

Yes colonials in 1775 sounded just like the home land…

It was the homeland that changed the way they spoke, not the colonials who became the US…


What do Canadians sound like?

The Brits changed their friggen accent not the other way around!!!!

So it might be best if the Americans sound American rather than have an accent that didn’t exist yet!:smash:


This narrow topic has its own thread.

Please feel free to contribute, agree, disagree, or rant there…


https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=112364

Of course we can continue here also if you like…

Other wise I wouldn’t stared yet another language thread…


:laugh4:


.

[Freedom Onanist]

At that time though, British sounded much CLOSER (though not exactly like) to modern Americans than to modern British. It was a very raw and growling language and they graged their vowels out really long. That is the opinion of most important lingual experts I have heard at least.
I am not arguing witht he fact that British English evolved more in the intervening 200 years than US English. After all, for a large part of that time there was a larger population speaking and introducing evolutionary steps into the language in Britain than the US. However, also there are many, many different accents in the UK, even patois, these became mixed in the US.

I am just saying that people speaking English in N America and Britain 2-300 years ago wouldn't have sounded as far apart as we do today. Whether that sounded more like "American" today is a bit irrelevant because then it was British. It doesn't make sense to have Brits sounding like americans to today's audience, so the British sounding Americans (in context).


Gosh! Here we go again!

Yes colonials in 1775 sounded just like the home land…

It was the homeland that changed the way they spoke, not the colonials who became the US…

What do Canadians sound like?

The Brits changed their friggen accent not the other way around!!!!

So it might be best if the Americans sound American rather than have an accent that didn’t exist yet!Oh dear :no: As per above. Thanks for agreeing with me (in large bold CAPS :laugh4:) that the Americans of the day sounded like the Brits of the day....:wall:

[Barkhorn1x]

Oh my. These posts just prove my point. People will be disappointed no matter what. :embarassed:

[Vuk]

Unless they are willing to put serious research and consult serious linguists about the way that the language would have sounded (which would seem pretty absurd and hard to understand for today's audiences) I think that the easiest and most accurate thing for them to do would be to just give them American accents. The intonation of the American accent is much closer than the British would be.

[Fisherking]

I am not arguing witht he fact that British English evolved more in the intervening 200 years than US English. After all, for a large part of that time there was a larger population speaking and introducing evolutionary steps into the language in Britain than the US. However, also there are many, many different accents in the UK, even patois, these became mixed in the US.

I am just saying that people speaking English in N America and Britain 2-300 years ago wouldn't have sounded as far apart as we do today. Whether that sounded more like "American" today is a bit irrelevant because then it was British. It doesn't make sense to have Brits sounding like americans to today's audience, so the British sounding Americans (in context).

Oh dear :no: As per above. Thanks for agreeing with me (in large bold CAPS :laugh4:) that the Americans of the day sounded like the Brits of the day....:wall:


It is most certainly not irrelevant that Estuary English did not sound as it does today!

That is simply silly. Armor evolved into Tanks…should we have had Roman Tanks in RTW?

Of course not!

So if the modern British accent is portrayed in the game (which it should not be) then it should not be given to the American Colonials!

Language and accents are very touchy subjects…If you give Americans British accents…there are a whole lot more Americans and Canadians to get upset then there are speakers of that accent in a part of the British Isles…

And I am sure that the Scots and Irish would be just as upset if you gave it to their factions should they emerge…

[Rufus]

Washington probably had something close to a Virginia Tidewater accent today, one of the older American accents (based on the isolated Chesapeake communities like Tangier Island that speak the strongest version of it) - a kind of softer, more aristocratic, maybe more "British" version of a Southern accent, with some pronunciation idiosynchrasies like "oot" for out and "hoos" for house.

As for the 18th century Brits, wasn't that right around the time today's "Queen's English" accent started really taking hold, especially among the elites? In that case, E:TW should probably err on the side of traditional "British" accents for the British characters, and modern American ones for the American characters (but if George Washington has a Virginia Tidewater accent, I will be very happy).

[Sir Beane]

The problem is that if the British were given American accents in ETW, no matter how accurate it is, thousands upon thousands of fans would be outraged.

Very few people know much about linguistics, and even fewer know about language change and how the American and British accents have developed over time. To them having the British sound American would seem silly.

CA have to play to what the public percieve is 'accurate'. That means Queen's English Brits, Snooty Frenchman, etc.

It's a bit of a catch 22 situation really. To be 'accurate' in the public eye they have to be deliberately innacurate. Either way one group is going to be offended, it just happens to be linguists because there are fewer of us. :laugh4:

Pleae try not to get too involved in this discussion. Arguing with fellow members isn't going to make CA put better accents in game. Keep your points calm and civil please. :2thumbsup:

[Vuk]

The problem is that if the British were given American accents in ETW, no matter how accurate it is, thousands upon thousands of fans would be outraged.

Very few people know much about linguistics, and even fewer know about language change and how the American and British accents have developed over time. To them having the British sound American would seem silly.

CA have to play to what the public percieve is 'accurate'. That means Queen's English Brits, Snooty Frenchman, etc.

It's a bit of a catch 22 situation really. To be 'accurate' in the public eye they have to be deliberately innacurate. Either way one group is going to be offended, it just happens to be linguists because there are fewer of us. :laugh4:

Pleae try not to get too involved in this discussion. Arguing with fellow members isn't going to make CA put better accents in game. Keep your points calm and civil please. :2thumbsup:

While I see your point Sir Beane, I do not completely agree with you. The thing is that enough people know enough about lingustics to appreciate the realism, and they have a real reason to be offended if it is incorrect. (because after all, isn't unrealistic voice acting offensive ~;)) The people who know little about linguistics though have no reason to be offended if they believe it is wrong. And if they think that it is weird and look it up, they will see that it is correct. I think that CA should strive for realism when they can do so. I realise marketing concerns and such, but I hardly see why this would be any more difficult for them or cost them any business.

[Sir Beane]

While I see your point Sir Beane, I do not completely agree with you. The thing is that enough people know enough about lingustics to appreciate the realism, and they have a real reason to be offended if it is incorrect. (because after all, isn't unrealistic voice acting offensive ~;)) The people who know little about linguistics though have no reason to be offended if they believe it is wrong. And if they think that it is weird and look it up, they will see that it is correct. I think that CA should strive for realism when they can do so. I realise marketing concerns and such, but I hardly see why this would be any more difficult for them or cost them any business.

Finding good voice actors capable of portraying accurate historical accents is more difficult than you might think. Even huge Hollywood movies with gigantic budgets have problems finding historical voice actors. And that means CA would have to pay more, for actors salaries, and for the cost of finding and recruiting capable actors.

I don't really find unrealistic voice acting offensive. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to watch any American movie or show with a British character, because they always have us Brits sounding like upper class twits. And to be honest no one I know sounds anything like that.

I'm a language student and I can fully appreciate the range of languages and accents that would have to be present to make a game like Empire at all accurate. The fact is though that even scholars of language disagree on how people of the time spoke. The debate only gets worse the more languages you add into it.

I would love it iff the Magyars, English, Americans and every other faction and group of people sounded accurate. It won't happen though., and I do think it is a little unfair to expect CA to do so.

[Freedom Onanist]

The problem is that if the British were given American accents in ETW, no matter how accurate it is, thousands upon thousands of fans would be outraged.

Very few people know much about linguistics, and even fewer know about language change and how the American and British accents have developed over time. To them having the British sound American would seem silly.

CA have to play to what the public percieve is 'accurate'. That means Queen's English Brits, Snooty Frenchman, etc.

It's a bit of a catch 22 situation really. To be 'accurate' in the public eye they have to be deliberately innacurate. Either way one group is going to be offended, it just happens to be linguists because there are fewer of us. :laugh4:

Pleae try not to get too involved in this discussion. Arguing with fellow members isn't going to make CA put better accents in game. Keep your points calm and civil please. :2thumbsup:My point exactly, thank you.

Sometimes history acually gets in the way.

[Vuk]

Finding good voice actors capable of portraying accurate historical accents is more difficult than you might think. Even huge Hollywood movies with gigantic budgets have problems finding historical voice actors. And that means CA would have to pay more, for actors salaries, and for the cost of finding and recruiting capable actors.

I don't really find unrealistic voice acting offensive. Otherwise I wouldn't be able to watch any American movie or show with a British character, because they always have us Brits sounding like upper class twits. And to be honest no one I know sounds anything like that.

I'm a language student and I can fully appreciate the range of languages and accents that would have to be present to make a game like Empire at all accurate. The fact is though that even scholars of language disagree on how people of the time spoke. The debate only gets worse the more languages you add into it.

I would love it iff the Magyars, English, Americans and every other faction and group of people sounded accurate. It won't happen though., and I do think it is a little unfair to expect CA to do so.

Definately, which is why I said that they should just simplify it by using SE USA voice actors. It would be no more trouble than using Brit voice actors, and while it would not be accurate, it would be a lot MORE accurate. That is all I am saying.

[Fisherking]

I think it is a good idea for the Brits to sound English! But I think it is more important that the Colonials sound American.

Both are relatively inaccurate approximations of speech of the time. One more so than the other, the dumb factor can not be ignored of course…so it is smarter and less likely to cause a furor if both have different accents in the game.

Last time I checked there were a few hundred million more English speakers in North America than in the UK.

It isn’t as smart to tick off the larger numbers with giving everyone the accent of an Oxford Don.

Surely you can see the point in that…



__________________________________________________________

I don’t think the discussion has degenerated to name calling and discussing peoples parentage…nor should it.

A good civil argument is stimulating and I hope all here are adult enough to continue in a civil fashion.

No worries Sir Beane!

[Sir Beane]

__________________________________________________________

I don’t think the discussion has degenerated to name calling and discussing peoples parentage…nor should it.

A good civil argument is stimulating and I hope all here are adult enough to continue in a civil fashion.

No worries Sir Beane!

Good good! I wasn't really worried, just a friendly warning because this topic could get quite political. :2thumbsup:

Carry on gents. :beam:

[Vuk]

Good good! I wasn't really worried, just a friendly warning because this topic could get quite political. :2thumbsup:

Carry on gents. :beam:

:furious3::furious3::furious3::furious3::furious3::furious3:
YOU :furious3: BRIT :furious3:!!:hmg:
:furious3::furious3:

lol ~;)
:balloon:

[Barkhorn1x]

Otherwise I wouldn't be able to watch any American movie or show with a British character, because they always have us Brits sounding like upper class twits. And to be honest no one I know sounds anything like that.



Are you sure about that? Every time I see a talk show or documentary on the Beeb they all pretty much sound like that.

Odd. :coffeenews:

[Fisherking]

CA says they are continuing development after release. Language my not be the problem I first noted in the video of Bunker hill, but if it is they can fix it.

Besides, the thing that would sound in between and might be acceptable to both sides of the pond would be to just grab some Irish voice actors to do the work.

It is much closer to the English of the day and Americans would raise less of a fit.

[Sir Beane]

Are you sure about that? Every time I see a talk show or documentary on the Beeb they all pretty much sound like that.

Odd. :coffeenews:

It's no suprise the BBC sounds like that, they make an effort to get people who speak RP English (like The Queen). Talk shows tend to have more regional accents now however.

I live in Derbyshire, which is a rather rural part of England and has one of the oldest (and oddest) accents. Speaking Queen's English will get you funny looks around these parts. I know that from personal experience (apparently I sound 'a bit posh' :laugh4:).

England's a small country, but we have plenty of variation in accents.

[Oleander Ardens]

First I think it is a great thing that CA wants to let troops bark in their own language. While dialects would be nice I think it is fair to imagine that the officers tried to speak the standard language.

[Sisco Americanus]

It's no suprise the BBC sounds like that, they make an effort to get people who speak RP English (like The Queen). Talk shows tend to have more regional accents now however.

I live in Derbyshire, which is a rather rural part of England and has one of the oldest (and oddest) accents. Speaking Queen's English will get you funny looks around these parts. I know that from personal experience (apparently I sound 'a bit posh' :laugh4:).

England's a small country, but we have plenty of variation in accents.


I didn't really even take notice of this sort of thing until I was watching Doctor Who (Stop judging me!!) and everyone asked Christopher Eccleston why he had a northern accent (to which his response was always, "A lot of places have a north."). British generally sounded British to me, with the only distinction being "high class" British as opposed to "low-class" British, all of which I subsumed under the term "cockney." After that I really began to pay attention and noticed the distinct differences in the regional dialects of England. Fascinating subject, really.

If the English of the 18th century sounded closer to modern Americans than to modern English, which modern Americans do linguists think they sounded like? There are a lot of different accents in North America, of course. Canadians sound different from New Englanders, Minnesotans sound different from people from the Mid-Atlantic, etc. Do linguists think they would have sounded closest to the mid-atlantic/Virginia tidewater accent, as someone suggested (it does sound very genteel, by the way)?

EDIT: I've followed the link on the previous page and am seeing that my question has already been discussed.

[Fisherking]

I didn't really even take notice of this sort of thing until I was watching Doctor Who (Stop judging me!!) and everyone asked Christopher Eccleston why he had a northern accent (to which his response was always, "A lot of places have a north."). British generally sounded British to me, with the only distinction being "high class" British as opposed to "low-class" British, all of which I subsumed under the term "cockney." After that I really began to pay attention and noticed the distinct differences in the regional dialects of England. Fascinating subject, really.

If the English of the 18th century sounded closer to modern Americans than to modern English, which modern Americans do linguists think they sounded like? There are a lot of different accents in North America, of course. Canadians sound different from New Englanders, Minnesotans sound different from people from the Mid-Atlantic, etc. Do linguists think they would have sounded closest to the mid-atlantic/Virginia tidewater accent, as someone suggested (it does sound very genteel, by the way)?

Good questions all!

Again most of those questions are answered here:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=112364

But definitely NOT Virginia Tidewater.

Of the time “merchant” would sound like marchent for one. The Rs were hard and pronounced. The accent would have sounded closer to Irish in that regard.

As for sounds closest try back woods Tennessee and the hills of Arkansas. Tidewater’s hidden Rs and soft soft vowels are owed most to African-American influences.

[Megas Methuselah]

And what about the Native American factions? If the Sioux and the Iroquois are speaking the same language…well some of us will know!

The'll probably only have the "playable" factions speak in their native tongues, while the rest will say nothing.


Canadians sound different from New Englanders-

I think it's very funny that you should classify people of countless nationalities spread across a whole friggen continent in one of the world's largest countries under a single accent. Do you realize how many different "Canadian" accents there are?

[scipiosgoblin]

:hijacked:



I live in Derbyshire, which is a rather rural part of England and has one of the oldest (and oddest) accents. Speaking Queen's English will get you funny looks around these parts. I know that from personal experience (apparently I sound 'a bit posh' :laugh4:).



I just wanted to thank you Sir Beane. ~:mad My wife just chewed me out because I mispronounced Derbyshire. :wall: For those of you who don't know (Like me) it's pronounced Darbishur. ~:rolleyes:

Why can't you Brits speak a civilized language???? :thumbsup: LOL

This is my ongoing battle with the South African Wife who hates it when I call her a snooty Brit. :ballchain:

Back on Topic
I think CA is bound to disappoint all of us in some aspect on the game. There are several hundred thousand of us and only one game. If all they muck up (wife's influence on word choice) is some accents, I can live with it. :2cents:

Still can't wait for the game. :jumping:

And YAY I'm a member :charge:

SG

[Sisco Americanus]

I think it's very funny that you should classify people of countless nationalities spread across a whole friggen continent in one of the world's largest countries under a single accent. Do you realize how many different "Canadian" accents there are?

Having grown up within three miles of the Canadian border, visiting all the time and quite often enjoying CBC, yes I am well aware that it is a land of many varied manners of English speech (not to mention French). For that matter, people from different parts of the mid-atlantic or New England speak differently as well. I just didn't want to forget about our cousins to the north when asking which "American" accent was closest to 18th century English.