Torture evidence being hidden from President Obama

[Banquo's Ghost]

The case of Binyam Mohammed has been causing concern for quite some time, and has flared into the mainstream news because of a High Court commentary by some eminent judges as to the behaviour of US intelligence.

This information (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/11/binyam-mohamed-release-torture-letter), however, raises some very disturbing questions about the legacy of President Bush and the intelligence communities. In short, it appears that someone is attempting to deny President Obama access to information about torture activities that he may have a view on.


"You, as commander in chief, are being denied access to material that would help prove that crimes have been committed by US personnel. This decision is being made by the very people who you command."

It should be noted that Binyam Mohammed has had all charges dropped against him and therefore by both US and UK standards is a completely innocent man. A man who has been shipped by "rendition" to some of the nastiest regimes in the world for torture described in the letter to President Obama as "mediaeval". His military lawyer Lt Col Bradley, has described his condition currently as utterly frail and he is on hunger strike, suffering from physical and psychological breakdown. There is hope however, that he may be released to the UK soon.

Is it remotely acceptable that evidence of such barbarism is not only hidden behind a cloak of "national security" dissimulation, but from the president as well? :shame:

[Devastatin Dave]

Thanks BG, I feel a little safer now knowing that there is an attempt to keep this information from our Manchurian President. Now that's Hope.:2thumbsup:

[CountArach]

Thanks BG, I feel a little safer now knowing that there is an attempt to keep this information from our Manchurian President. Now that's Hope.:2thumbsup:
Yes - damn that Constitutional command over the intelligence services to hell!

[Devastatin Dave]

Yes - damn that Constitutional command over the intelligence services to hell!

I wouldn't trust the safety of a freshly laid steaming :daisy:, much less this nations security. I'm not suicidal.

[CountArach]

I wouldn't trust the safety of a freshly laid steaming :daisy:, much less this nations security. I'm not suicidal.
Then leave! :idea:

[KukriKhan]

That is an awful lot of redacting:

https://jimcee.homestead.com/2redact.jpg


Is it remotely acceptable that evidence of such barbarism is not only hidden behind a cloak of "national security" dissimulation, but from the president as well?

I wouldn't bet on it's being "hidden... from the president", despite the charity's lawyers' assumption of the same in their memo.

[Vladimir]

Oh my. It looks like the kings advisers rendered him a disservice much the same way King George was. 'Tis a shame.

Of course Bush '43 knew EVERYTHING and is therefore held accountable for all misdeeds committed while he was President. I mean, it can't be President Obama's fault right? Hope and change tm is infallible. I also see that "blanked out" is now a legal term.


US defence officials are preventing Barack Obama from seeing evidence...

Sorry, I don't see how this is possible as he's their boss!

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Intelligence work has, for a long time now, viewed "sources and methods" as not being regularly in the purview of the President. The President and advisors require information and an assessment of its accuracy, but NOT how it was collected or from whom. If they have access to that information, it is likely to leak and get someone killed. Protecting that confidentiality is vital to intelligence work.

This is the reason that RICHARD ARMMITAGE SHOULD have faced charges over Valerie Plame and why "Scooter" Libby was not supposed to make stuff up/be evasivee under investigation. Even though Plame's cover was "aging" at best, it was NOT within the purview of those "in the know" to leak that information.

President Obama may not have been made privy to the "sources and methods" used here (and neither may his predecessor have been) based on that rationale.

However, if the subject in question has been cleared of all charges, a proper (even if confidential) inquiry into the sources and methods used -- and their legality -- may be very appropriate.

[Vladimir]

Intelligence work has, for a long time now, viewed "sources and methods" as not being regularly in the purview of the President. The President and advisors require information and an assessment of its accuracy, but NOT how it was collected or from whom. If they have access to that information, it is likely to leak and get someone killed. Protecting that confidentiality is vital to intelligence work.

This is the reason that Dick Armey SHOULD have faced charges over Valerie Plame and why "Scooter" Libby was not supposed to make stuff up/be evasivee under investigation. Even though Plame's cover was "aging" at best, it was NOT within the purview of those "in the know" to leak that information.

President Obama may not have been made privy to the "sources and methods" used here (and neither may his predecessor have been) based on that rationale.

However, if the subject in question has been cleared of all charges, a proper (even if confidential) inquiry into the sources and methods used -- and their legality -- may be very appropriate.

By sources and methods do you mean this: http://sourcesandmethods.blogspot.com/

Just kidding, but it is a great site.

When it comes to the "torture" debate the methods are important. The biggest argument against torture, or coercive interrogation techniques, is that the quality if information is unreliable at best. However none of this is the emphasis of this poor excuse for journalism. It is that DoD officials, who work directly for the POTUS, "blanked out" information and are preventing "Barrack Obama" (not President Obama, mind you) from knowing the truth. If he leaks information, it isn't a leak. His first and maybe only leak occurred after his Top Secret candidate briefing.

You mean Richard Armitage (http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/30/leak.armitage/index.html). He is the one who leaked Valerie's name and started the Plame game. But he's a leftie at state so who cares, right? I don't know where you got Dick Armey from.

Whether or not he was told the What and now the How is irrelevant. If he wants to know how, DoD will tell him.

Not to cut to the quick or anything. I'm willing to let the superfluous use of passive language in the thread title slide, but I can't excuse shoddy journalism.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

When it comes to the "torture" debate the methods are important. The biggest argument against torture, or coercive interrogation techniques, is that the quality if information is unreliable at best. However none of this is the emphasis of this poor excuse for journalism. It is that DoD officials, who work directly for the POTUS, "blanked out" information and are preventing "Barrack Obama" (not President Obama, mind you) from knowing the truth. If he leaks information, it isn't a leak. His first and maybe only leak occurred after his Top Secret candidate briefing.

I was reminding folks that materials are often redacted to protect sources, even from the big boss, in the name of operational security. You can argue that this is overkill, you can argue that this class of sources and methods should be treated differently in this context, etc. I was merely pointing out that the fact that a POTUS wasn't hearing HOW the information was developed was not, in and of itself, evidence of a conspiracy to deny information. It very well COULD be, but so far it's correlation not causality.


You mean Richard Armitage (http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/08/30/leak.armitage/index.html). He is the one who leaked Valerie's name and started the Plame game. But he's a leftie at state so who cares, right? I don't know where you got Dick Armey from.

You are correct, I meant Armitage. I had a brief moment of intellectual flatulence, please forgive me.

[Vladimir]

:laugh4: Easy there. No need for forgiveness. This place is so cathartic for me. :devil:

[Devastatin Dave]

Then leave! :idea:

I thought about moving to Australia, but your government is too busy roasting its own citizens in the name of being Green. Also, according to many of you and Grand Harpy Herself, Hillary Clinton, dessent is patriotic. So I'm just being patriotic when I oppose my insurgent leader.

[Gregoshi]

So I'm just being patriotic when I oppose my insurgent leader.
Rush Limbaugh?

[Xiahou]

So it was a letter from the detainee? My understanding was the all detainee communications leaving the camp was screened. Obama has the authority to learn everything he wants to about these matters and if he doesn't, it's by his own decision.

The Obama administration seems intent on keeping the state secrets policy (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/10/us/10torture.html?hp) of the Bush administration, contrary to campaign promises and much to the chagrin of the ACLU. I love the attempts to let Obama off the hook as not knowing anything about it, but that just doesn't fly once you're president.


A man who has been shipped by "rendition" to some of the nastiest regimes in the world for torture described in the letter to President Obama as "mediaeval".Are any of his claims substantiated by anything aside from his own statements? I'm highly skeptical of many of his claims, like going to Afghanistan -opium capitol of the world- to beat his drug problem. He was held for most of his time at Gitmo in the super-maximum security section. Only a small minority of the total population was put there, and it wasn't for being model citizens....

[Devastatin Dave]

Are any of his claims substantiated by anything aside from his own statements? I'm highly skeptical of many of his claims, like going to Afghanistan -opium capitol of the world- to beat his drug problem. He was held for most of his time at Gitmo in the super-maximum security section. Only a small minority of the total population was put there, and it wasn't for being model citizens....

Come on, this is BG for God's sakes he'd never let his own biases and political leanings distort the truth!!! :2thumbsup:

[Lemur]

Come on, this is BG for God's sakes he'd never let his own biases and political leanings distort the truth!!! :2thumbsup:
This from the man who can't achieve orgasm unless he asserts that President Obama is a crypto-Muslim Marxist at least once a day?

[LittleGrizzly]

So I'm just being patriotic when I oppose my insurgent leader.

Its funny, we try to explain for years that when you oppose the leader for the good of the country it is patrioitic, unfortunatly it only seemed to sink in after bush left office and obama came in... some may call this hypocritical...

Another funny thing... constant telling of people who disliked bush's policys and fox news and the like to just leave the country if they hate it so much... these same people then act exactly the same complaining and moaning but don't seem to take thier own advice

Maybe this can teach us some lessons...

Dave really... can you criticise* the bias and political leanings of others... really... come on now...

*that is without being hypocritical...

[Vladimir]

This from the man who can't achieve orgasm unless he asserts that President Obama is a crypto-Muslim Marxist at least once a day?

Why are my ears burning? :stupido2:

[Devastatin Dave]

This from the man who can't achieve orgasm unless he asserts that President Obama is a crypto-Muslim Marxist at least once a day?

Don't need it today, got my newsletter from Rush, its really hard to type on handed...


@LG
I'm sorry that I'm acting like you guys have over the past 8 years, can you forgive me? So which is it then LG, can I oppose the president or not? I thought you would be a little more supportive of my new sense of "patriotism"...:laugh4:

[Lemur]

It saddens me that there are days when Rush is enough for you. Makes me feel all left out.

Meanwhile, FOIA requests keep pumping out the goods. This is worthwhile reading, especially if you are convinced that this whole torture debate is largely academic and silly. From Bagram Air Force Base (http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/021109.html):

DODDOACID011770-013418—Investigation into the deaths of two detainees at the Bagram Control Point (BCP) in Bagram, Afghanistan. Both detainees were determined to have been killed by blood clots that were dislodged and travelled to their hearts, causing pulmonary embolism. The blood clots, and their subsequent dislodging, were caused by sustained standing chained in place, as well as by sleep deprivation and dozens of beatings by guards and possibly interrogators. The investigation reveals systems of torture perpetrated by Military Intelligence and the Military Police guards at the BCP, as well as allegations of torture at joint American-Afghani prisons in Kabul, and maltreatment at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The torture at BCP takes many forms, including beatings, sleep deprivation, being chained standing to a fixed object for periods exceeding 24 hours, allegations of sexual torture and humiliation, allegations of the use of dogs both to degrade and frighten the detainees, and degradation through the forced performance of emasculating and disgusting tasks, such as the forcing of a detainee to pick plastic bottle caps out of a latrine can filled with feces.

DODDOACID013419-013959—This report investigates alleged the Homicide or Involuntary Manslaughter of a detainee, Dilar Dababa, by U.S. Forces. On the evening of June 12, 2003, Dababa was captured by Coalition Forces and transported to BIAP. Throughout the night, soldiers forced him to do "physical training": he was made to kneel down and stand up repeatedly, lie down and standup, and hold a box above his head while lying down that he dropped on his face and torso when his arms tired. After training, a soldier constructed a stinkbomb using a Meal Ready to Eat heater, tabasco sauce, and water, and placed it in Dababa's cell. The stinkbomb caused respiratory agitation and coughing. In the morning of June 13, 2003, Dababa attempted to escape, during which two soldiers subdued him using "necessary force." One soldier punched Dababa above the left eye which caused a laceration about 2.5 cm wide that required sutures. After medical examination, he had no indications of serious injury. That evening, Dababa was found dead lying on the ground in his cell. An autopsy revealed that he died of a closed head injury that caused hemorrhaging within the brain. There was insufficient evidence to prove or disprove that soldiers committed Homicide or Involuntary Manslaughter; however, the investigation established probable cause that the guard, who made the stink bomb, committed Dereliction of Duty and Cruelty and Maltreatment.

DODDOACID013960-014079—This report investigates alleged aggravated assault, cruelty, and maltreatment of an Iraqi prisoner by U.S. forces. He states that he was held at the Disco for approximately one month, during which he was abused almost continuously (13967). The abuse consisted of several methods: 1) filling his jumpsuit with ice, then hosing him down and making him stand for long periods of time, sometimes in front of an air conditioner; 2) forcing him to lay down and drink water until he gagged, vomited or choked, 3) having his head banged against a hot steel plate while hooded and interrogated; 4) being forced to do leg lifts with bags of ice placed on his ankles, and being kicked when he could not do more. The detainee also alleges that stones were thrown at him and that he was hit by a translator. The 48th Military Police Detachment and 3rd Military Policy Group(CID) began investigating the allegations on August 8, 2004, and upon finding that the Navy ran and supervised The Disco, turned jurisdiction of the investigation over to Naval Criminal Investigative Service on September 15, 2005. There is no conclusion or recommended conclusion in this report.

DODDOACID014080-017332—This CID Report investigates numerous allegations of abuse and torture that occurred in September and November of 2003 in Iraq's Abu Ghraib Prison. Included in the file is the testimony of detainee victims and members of the 372nd MP who perpetrated and/or witnessed abuse. The investigation established probable cause to believe that members of the 372nd MP were implicated in offenses such as Assault, Indecent Acts, Dereliction of Duty, Cruelty and Maltreatment, Conspiracy, Obstruction of Justice, Sexual Abuse and False Official Statement. In the cases of only two individuals did CID agents fail to establish probable cause after investigating the allegations against them. Photographic evidence of these abuses is discussed at length, but not included in the file.

[Devastatin Dave]

It saddens me that there are days when Rush is enough for you. Makes me feel all left out.

Meanwhile, FOIA requests keep pumping out the goods. This is worthwhile reading, especially if you are convinced that this whole torture debate is largely academic and silly. From Bagram Air Force Base (http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/021109.html):

DODDOACID011770-013418—Investigation into the deaths of two detainees at the Bagram Control Point (BCP) in Bagram, Afghanistan. Both detainees were determined to have been killed by blood clots that were dislodged and travelled to their hearts, causing pulmonary embolism. The blood clots, and their subsequent dislodging, were caused by sustained standing chained in place, as well as by sleep deprivation and dozens of beatings by guards and possibly interrogators. The investigation reveals systems of torture perpetrated by Military Intelligence and the Military Police guards at the BCP, as well as allegations of torture at joint American-Afghani prisons in Kabul, and maltreatment at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The torture at BCP takes many forms, including beatings, sleep deprivation, being chained standing to a fixed object for periods exceeding 24 hours, allegations of sexual torture and humiliation, allegations of the use of dogs both to degrade and frighten the detainees, and degradation through the forced performance of emasculating and disgusting tasks, such as the forcing of a detainee to pick plastic bottle caps out of a latrine can filled with feces.

DODDOACID013419-013959—This report investigates alleged the Homicide or Involuntary Manslaughter of a detainee, Dilar Dababa, by U.S. Forces. On the evening of June 12, 2003, Dababa was captured by Coalition Forces and transported to BIAP. Throughout the night, soldiers forced him to do "physical training": he was made to kneel down and stand up repeatedly, lie down and standup, and hold a box above his head while lying down that he dropped on his face and torso when his arms tired. After training, a soldier constructed a stinkbomb using a Meal Ready to Eat heater, tabasco sauce, and water, and placed it in Dababa's cell. The stinkbomb caused respiratory agitation and coughing. In the morning of June 13, 2003, Dababa attempted to escape, during which two soldiers subdued him using "necessary force." One soldier punched Dababa above the left eye which caused a laceration about 2.5 cm wide that required sutures. After medical examination, he had no indications of serious injury. That evening, Dababa was found dead lying on the ground in his cell. An autopsy revealed that he died of a closed head injury that caused hemorrhaging within the brain. There was insufficient evidence to prove or disprove that soldiers committed Homicide or Involuntary Manslaughter; however, the investigation established probable cause that the guard, who made the stink bomb, committed Dereliction of Duty and Cruelty and Maltreatment.

DODDOACID013960-014079—This report investigates alleged aggravated assault, cruelty, and maltreatment of an Iraqi prisoner by U.S. forces. He states that he was held at the Disco for approximately one month, during which he was abused almost continuously (13967). The abuse consisted of several methods: 1) filling his jumpsuit with ice, then hosing him down and making him stand for long periods of time, sometimes in front of an air conditioner; 2) forcing him to lay down and drink water until he gagged, vomited or choked, 3) having his head banged against a hot steel plate while hooded and interrogated; 4) being forced to do leg lifts with bags of ice placed on his ankles, and being kicked when he could not do more. The detainee also alleges that stones were thrown at him and that he was hit by a translator. The 48th Military Police Detachment and 3rd Military Policy Group(CID) began investigating the allegations on August 8, 2004, and upon finding that the Navy ran and supervised The Disco, turned jurisdiction of the investigation over to Naval Criminal Investigative Service on September 15, 2005. There is no conclusion or recommended conclusion in this report.

DODDOACID014080-017332—This CID Report investigates numerous allegations of abuse and torture that occurred in September and November of 2003 in Iraq's Abu Ghraib Prison. Included in the file is the testimony of detainee victims and members of the 372nd MP who perpetrated and/or witnessed abuse. The investigation established probable cause to believe that members of the 372nd MP were implicated in offenses such as Assault, Indecent Acts, Dereliction of Duty, Cruelty and Maltreatment, Conspiracy, Obstruction of Justice, Sexual Abuse and False Official Statement. In the cases of only two individuals did CID agents fail to establish probable cause after investigating the allegations against them. Photographic evidence of these abuses is discussed at length, but not included in the file.


Boo :daisy: hoo. Its war dagnamit.

[Vladimir]

It saddens me that there are days when Rush is enough for you. Makes me feel all left out.

Meanwhile, FOIA requests keep pumping out the goods. This is worthwhile reading, especially if you are convinced that this whole torture debate is largely academic and silly. From Bagram Air Force Base (http://www.aclu.org/torturefoia/released/021109.html):

DODDOACID011770-013418—Investigation into the deaths of two detainees at the Bagram Control Point (BCP) in Bagram, Afghanistan. Both detainees were determined to have been killed by blood clots that were dislodged and travelled to their hearts, causing pulmonary embolism. The blood clots, and their subsequent dislodging, were caused by sustained standing chained in place, as well as by sleep deprivation and dozens of beatings by guards and possibly interrogators. The investigation reveals systems of torture perpetrated by Military Intelligence and the Military Police guards at the BCP, as well as allegations of torture at joint American-Afghani prisons in Kabul, and maltreatment at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The torture at BCP takes many forms, including beatings, sleep deprivation, being chained standing to a fixed object for periods exceeding 24 hours, allegations of sexual torture and humiliation, allegations of the use of dogs both to degrade and frighten the detainees, and degradation through the forced performance of emasculating and disgusting tasks, such as the forcing of a detainee to pick plastic bottle caps out of a latrine can filled with feces.

DODDOACID013419-013959—This report investigates alleged the Homicide or Involuntary Manslaughter of a detainee, Dilar Dababa, by U.S. Forces. On the evening of June 12, 2003, Dababa was captured by Coalition Forces and transported to BIAP. Throughout the night, soldiers forced him to do "physical training": he was made to kneel down and stand up repeatedly, lie down and standup, and hold a box above his head while lying down that he dropped on his face and torso when his arms tired. After training, a soldier constructed a stinkbomb using a Meal Ready to Eat heater, tabasco sauce, and water, and placed it in Dababa's cell. The stinkbomb caused respiratory agitation and coughing. In the morning of June 13, 2003, Dababa attempted to escape, during which two soldiers subdued him using "necessary force." One soldier punched Dababa above the left eye which caused a laceration about 2.5 cm wide that required sutures. After medical examination, he had no indications of serious injury. That evening, Dababa was found dead lying on the ground in his cell. An autopsy revealed that he died of a closed head injury that caused hemorrhaging within the brain. There was insufficient evidence to prove or disprove that soldiers committed Homicide or Involuntary Manslaughter; however, the investigation established probable cause that the guard, who made the stink bomb, committed Dereliction of Duty and Cruelty and Maltreatment.

DODDOACID013960-014079—This report investigates alleged aggravated assault, cruelty, and maltreatment of an Iraqi prisoner by U.S. forces. He states that he was held at the Disco for approximately one month, during which he was abused almost continuously (13967). The abuse consisted of several methods: 1) filling his jumpsuit with ice, then hosing him down and making him stand for long periods of time, sometimes in front of an air conditioner; 2) forcing him to lay down and drink water until he gagged, vomited or choked, 3) having his head banged against a hot steel plate while hooded and interrogated; 4) being forced to do leg lifts with bags of ice placed on his ankles, and being kicked when he could not do more. The detainee also alleges that stones were thrown at him and that he was hit by a translator. The 48th Military Police Detachment and 3rd Military Policy Group(CID) began investigating the allegations on August 8, 2004, and upon finding that the Navy ran and supervised The Disco, turned jurisdiction of the investigation over to Naval Criminal Investigative Service on September 15, 2005. There is no conclusion or recommended conclusion in this report.

DODDOACID014080-017332—This CID Report investigates numerous allegations of abuse and torture that occurred in September and November of 2003 in Iraq's Abu Ghraib Prison. Included in the file is the testimony of detainee victims and members of the 372nd MP who perpetrated and/or witnessed abuse. The investigation established probable cause to believe that members of the 372nd MP were implicated in offenses such as Assault, Indecent Acts, Dereliction of Duty, Cruelty and Maltreatment, Conspiracy, Obstruction of Justice, Sexual Abuse and False Official Statement. In the cases of only two individuals did CID agents fail to establish probable cause after investigating the allegations against them. Photographic evidence of these abuses is discussed at length, but not included in the file.

Lemur, your source is CID. What does USACID do?

Again, entertaining. However if I misunderstand your intent, I apologize.

[CrossLOPER]

...This is worthwhile reading, especially if you are convinced that this whole torture debate is largely academic and silly...
Post and hope.