View Full Version : New Gameplay Video (16th Feb)
ToeAndno
02-16-2009, 21:26
As posted on TWC forums.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q29EZwOxpBM&eurl=http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=225941&feature=player_embedded
The Blind Samurai
02-16-2009, 21:47
nice find :2thumbsup::2thumbsup:
That general got spanked by the cannon... :skull:
Good find.
I wonder if that explosion was a special set piece for the scenario or if you can really touch off the enemy's powder in battle.
Alexander the Pretty Good
02-16-2009, 21:52
Arty looks and sounds really meaty. I like it! :2thumbsup:
Why did the Prussians deploy in thick columns?
And this gets to where I think unlimited ammo for arty is silly. If one side ran out of ammo, the battle could be forced...
Yeah, it would be pretty cool if the ammo can blow up like that very occasionally/if someone is stupid with their cannon.
Why did the Prussians deploy in thick columns?
Well someone from TWC stated that they did it to display force and to intimidate the french.
PanzerJaeger
02-16-2009, 22:36
This game is looking less and less promising with each new video....
Greyblades
02-16-2009, 22:52
Two questions.
1. Why are there Russian (I think its Russian) subtitles? :inquisitive: I would have expected that an English speaking based game developer would release these for English speakers.
2. Also what happened to the usual narrator?
Megas Methuselah
02-16-2009, 23:26
Kool, the French Revolutionists! :france:
Alexander the Pretty Good
02-16-2009, 23:28
Well someone from TWC stated that they did it to display force and to intimidate the french.
Historically?
The battle of Valmy, the first victory for revolutionary France:book:
i have to admit this doesnt instill me with confidence, the fact that the infantry wouldnt even advance against cannons. if this is how the game plays out all the time most battles will be incredibly boring....i really hope this was just made so we could see artillery in action and see their power.
Megas Methuselah
02-16-2009, 23:37
Well someone from TWC stated that they did it to display force and to intimidate the french.
Doubt it. Apparently, CA came up with the idea that a charge made in columns will be more deadly than one made in thin lines.
Historically?
:shrug:
Historically, the Prussians did charge in collums
Historically?
Yes.
However it didn't really work in this battle.
Megas Methuselah
02-16-2009, 23:51
Learn something new everyday...
Alexander the Pretty Good
02-16-2009, 23:54
My question is did this happen in the video because it was a historical battle or because the AI thought it was a good idea? Because it really wasn't (and the AI should be smart enough to see that columns into arty fire is a terrible idea).
Well it's a historical battle from what I understood so the AI is no doubt scripted to behave in such a fashion.
If not then I suppose that it's a cool thing that they have added historical tactics used by certain factions.
Of course the real question is, where did they find this video ??
Incongruous
02-16-2009, 23:57
i have to admit this doesnt instill me with confidence, the fact that the infantry wouldnt even advance against cannons. if this is how the game plays out all the time most battles will be incredibly boring....i really hope this was just made so we could see artillery in action and see their power.
Scripted reconstruction of Valmy.
i have to admit this doesnt instill me with confidence, the fact that the infantry wouldnt even advance against cannons. if this is how the game plays out all the time most battles will be incredibly boring....i really hope this was just made so we could see artillery in action and see their power.
I don't think infantry will not advance against cannons in the real game. I believe it was just made to look like that in this video so that the battle would follow the accuracy of what historically happened. If you watch towards the end of the video, the Prussian infantry is pulled back by a player.
USS Providence 1972
02-17-2009, 00:01
Great, thanks for posting. This game will certainly require new tactics. Neither side had their attackers set on loose formation to minimize artillery damage and neither tried to flank the enemy. Frontal attacks into artillery are going to be ugly.
I wonder if your artillery automatically changes to grape when the enemy is close like they did with the initial cavalry charge or if you have to do it manually.
Rhyfelwyr
02-17-2009, 00:05
I hope many battles in ETW are like this, the fight-to-the-death battles of previous TW games where the loser was annihilated were not very realistic.
Discoman
02-17-2009, 00:08
Well considering there will be less armies I'd imagine more battles will play out like this. I think its a good thing, at least for the 'unit naming system' considering it would be a useless feature if 100 armies were all over the map.
NagatsukaShumi
02-17-2009, 00:10
As people have pointed out, you really cannot be critical of the game using that video. Why would a commentator describe the Battle of Valmy if it was just some random battle between Prussian and Rev. French armies?
It was either scripted, or a multiplayer battle deliberately engineered to turn out the way it did.
If I was to comment at anything presuming it was a simple battle with no scripting etc it would be that its nice to see the cavalry charge get decimated by cannon from close range.
i have to admit this doesnt instill me with confidence, the fact that the infantry wouldnt even advance against cannons.
If you look carefully you'll notice that the only unit that was actually routed, (ie white flag a flashin) was the general in the first cavalry charge. All others simply turned back without an actual route.
Sol Invictus
02-17-2009, 00:46
It is definately scripted to play out as the Battle of Valmy did historically. The battle was really just a long-range Artillery duel.
first game that (i know of) i seen using muskets
pretty cool
A rather odd battle to use as a showcase for the ETW engine. At least it seems artillery can hand out some heavy losses to cavalry charging into it.
The Prussians did not charge in columns. They advanced towards the French line but never got closer than around 600 meters. With less than 200 casualties in total it certainly was not heavy losses from artillery that made them pull back.
CBR
This game is looking less and less promising with each new video....
Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.
Doubt it. Apparently, CA came up with the idea that a charge made in columns will be more deadly than one made in thin lines.
I hate to break it to you but that was a widely accepted fact at the time. Thanks to its much greater depth in rows a column had a much greater chance of charging and beating an enemy deployed in line or square formation. Line formations were only good for maximizing firepower, their main drawbacks being lack of maneuverability, slower travel speed and extreme vulnerability to disruption and flanking maneuvers. Historically speaking deeper formations provide greater offensive melee strength, this same logic allowed the Thebans to beat the Spartans at Leuctra.
Columns may be more vulnerable to artillery and musket fire but they move much faster than line formations and can change direction and deploy into various formations must faster. Traveling long distances over a battlefield whilst deployed in line formation and under fire often left a unit disrupted and in disarray by the time it reached its destination.
Belgolas
02-17-2009, 02:32
guys obviously this is a human vs human. No AI or scripting invloved except for the explosion of the powder. This is most likely a battle that you would see on the histroy chanel or something like that. Don't get freaked out.
guys obviously this is a human vs human. No AI or scripting invloved except for the explosion of the powder. This is most likely a battle that you would see on the histroy chanel or something like that. Don't get freaked out.
I have to agree, this looks very much like Human vs Human while they reenact a historical battle. CA seems to be going for a pure "visual" show off here, though I'm not sure they wouldn't have been better served by picking a much more bloody battle to do that.
Didn't want to show off the shoddy hand to hand anims most likely.
Sol Invictus
02-17-2009, 04:12
Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.
I hate to break it to you but that was a widely accepted fact at the time. Thanks to its much greater depth in rows a column had a much greater chance of charging and beating an enemy deployed in line or square formation. Line formations were only good for maximizing firepower, their main drawbacks being lack of maneuverability, slower travel speed and extreme vulnerability to disruption and flanking maneuvers. Historically speaking deeper formations provide greater offensive melee strength, this same logic allowed the Thebans to beat the Spartans at Leuctra.
Columns may be more vulnerable to artillery and musket fire but they move much faster than line formations and can change direction and deploy into various formations must faster. Traveling long distances over a battlefield whilst deployed in line formation and under fire often left a unit disrupted and in disarray by the time it reached its destination.
The French only started experimenting with Attack Columns after the Seven Years War 1756-63. Armies almost exclusively advanced to the attack in the Line formation until the French started using Attack Columns fairly frequently after the start of the Revolution.
Incongruous
02-17-2009, 05:16
The French only started experimenting with Attack Columns after the Seven Years War 1756-63. Armies almost exclusively advanced to the attack in the Line formation until the French started using Attack Columns fairly frequently after the start of the Revolution.
Indeed, this is true, but this is Valmy.
And that is still the army that Der Alte Fritz nurtured. I don't even think the sources are any more specific than the word "columns" so that could mean a lot of things.
If I was to take a guess then it was Brigade columns which means each battalion was still in line then half or full distance behind it came next battalion. But even if they had used battalion columns it was still not meant to charge the French line, only to move closer and then deploy in line. Anything else does not sound very pre 1806 Prussian to me AFAIK.
CBR
Sol Invictus
02-17-2009, 06:32
Indeed, this is true, but this is Valmy.
The Prussians didn't use Attack Columns at Valmy, but it is difficult to really gauge the actual formations sometimes in the game because the scale is so skewed. Those may have been meant to be some sort of Maneuver Column advancing to the attack because you can see one start to deploy into Line, but it soon starts to withdraw before the deployment is complete.
Incongruous
02-17-2009, 06:37
The Prussians didn't use Attack Columns at Valmy, but it is difficult to really gauge the actual formations sometimes in the game because the scale is so skewed. Those may have been meant to be some sort of Maneuver Column advancing to the attack because you can see one start to deploy into Line, but it soon starts to withdraw before the deployment is complete.
They are manouver columns, at least they do not look like attack columns, I wonder if their use gives an increase in speed?
Duke John
02-17-2009, 09:58
Manoeuvre column:
::::::
::::::
::::::
::::::
::::::
::::::
Attack column composed of 3 units (be it a single company, 2 companies or even a battallion on a single line):
::::::::::::::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Spacing was needed to manouevre easier and to avoid large casualities by artillery. Spacing could be reduced to increase morale in which it would like this (very rare):
::::::::::::::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::
::::::::::::::::::::::::::
As you can see the attack column always has more men wide than deep! A military tactic is bringing enfilading fire onto the enemy which means firing along its length. Attacking in manoeuvre column means that the enemy can do this just by standing in front of the formation, no flanking required.
Portraying attack columns like this is just plain Hollywood.
Schiltrom
02-17-2009, 11:50
Yeah, it would be pretty cool if the ammo can blow up like that very occasionally/if someone is stupid with their cannon.
CA said they've got a "stress" factor where reloading takes longer and artillery is more likely to misfire and explode (it can do that, at least)
Hello Duke John! ~:wave:
Good to see you still lurking.
Colovion
02-17-2009, 12:15
Wow, that one unit of Cavalry got completely destroyed within one volley :skull:
Fisherking
02-17-2009, 12:29
So no one need speak from memory, here is a link to a battle graphic.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wargame.ch/wc/nwc/newsletter/21st_edition/Newsletter21/images/ValmyMap.GIF&imgrefurl=http://www.wargame.ch/wc/nwc/newsletter/21st_edition/Newsletter21/leaders.html&usg=__GMK-S6sSAKMIlGR6KGvkjg03_DM=&h=572&w=800&sz=762&hl=en&start=5&um=1&tbnid=-lyJcM4vnPsg-M:&tbnh=102&tbnw=143&prev=/images%3Fq%3DThe%2Bbattle%2Bof%2BValmy%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
This is a decisive battle in history but it is barely a battle in most regards.
A peevish General marches a part of his force to face the French because his King says they will over awe the rabble.
He never makes a serious effort to close. Brunswick is only making a point to his King as I see it.
French losses were almost double what the Prussians suffered. There was no real maneuver. One failed charge by the French and two half-hearted advances by the Prussians.
The video was likely more interesting than the battle. In my opinion Brunswick set out to loose.
i also wounder why CA would release a video on youtube instead of there own homepage.
Polemists
02-17-2009, 12:55
Probably download speed, Youtube has always been better for downloads then most sites.
Sir Beane
02-17-2009, 12:57
i also wounder why CA would release a video on youtube instead of there own homepage.
More people will see it on YouTube. It has a massive user base, allowing more prople to stumble on the video and go 'this looks cool, I think I'll look out for more info on it'.
Ituralde
02-17-2009, 13:16
Don't know how much this video was intended to be seen. When I follow that link it says the video was taken down by SEGA Europe due to copyright infringements. Would have loved to see it. Well, only two more weeks! :2thumbsup:
Polemists
02-17-2009, 13:19
I'm hoping for new etw gameplay videos this evening
Taken by fraps
involving the demo :P
I'm hoping for new etw gameplay videos this evening
Taken by fraps
involving the demo :P
Doubt we will see a demo today.
Next week probably.
Sir Beane
02-17-2009, 14:37
Doubt we will see a demo today.
Next week probably.
If the Demo comes out next week you have to wonder what the point is really. The game will be out in two weeks.
If the Demo comes out next week you have to wonder what the point is really. The game will be out in two weeks.
Still released before the real deal :2thumbsup:.
Unless SEGA is taking the Sony approach and release the demo after the game has been released.
IIRC for both RTW and M2TW they managed to send out a demo about 4 weeks before the game was released. Now we are looking at 2 weeks or less. Does not bode well IMO.
CBR
and the official home page say it will be released in march not a date in march (but i could be wrong on this one)
it seem that i was wrong it say on the preorder page that it will be released in 3th of march (through steam)
http://www.totalwar.com/empire/gameinfo/pre_order.php
IIRC for both RTW and M2TW they managed to send out a demo about 4 weeks before the game was released. Now we are looking at 2 weeks or less. Does not bode well IMO.
CBR
Yeah I can't really understand why they are dragging it out like this.
By this point we usually have several mods already for the demo alone.
Anyway, there is plenty of games out there to enjoy while you wait :2thumbsup:
Oh I'm pretty sure I understand why. Call me pessimistic or a cynic but based on the vids seen so far they are still busy getting battles to work properly. Remember how the first M2TW demo had bugged movements and CA actually released a second demo some time after that with some fixes.
It seems to me that the release delay was not done to make it more polished but it was simply time needed just to get it sorta OK.
But all that is of course guesswork and we will be a lot wiser in 2 weeks time.
CBR
Fisherking
02-17-2009, 15:37
Oh I'm pretty sure I understand why. Call me pessimistic or a cynic but based on the vids seen so far they are still busy getting battles to work properly. Remember how the first M2TW demo had bugged movements and CA actually released a second demo some time after that with some fixes.
It seems to me that the release delay was not done to make it more polished but it was simply time needed just to get it sorta OK.
But all that is of course guesswork and we will be a lot wiser in 2 weeks time.
CBR
Yes and at this rate we will be downloading the changes to the manual and last minute code changes to the game….and the demo will be out in May…
Sir Beane
02-17-2009, 18:07
The video is down, removed due to a copyright claim by Sega. Looks like we weren't meant to see it. Odd.
Barkhorn1x
02-17-2009, 18:20
Oh I'm pretty sure I understand why. Call me pessimistic or a cynic but based on the vids seen so far they are still busy getting battles to work properly. Remember how the first M2TW demo had bugged movements and CA actually released a second demo some time after that with some fixes.
It seems to me that the release delay was not done to make it more polished but it was simply time needed just to get it sorta OK.
But all that is of course guesswork and we will be a lot wiser in 2 weeks time.
CBR
You may be correct, but I just find it hard to believe that there wasn't some type of go/no go meeting in late January and they took a look at the remaining items list/bug list*** and figured that they needed to delay a couple of weeks until March 4th to finish/polish and squash the bugs. I mean, how can experienced game developers not know that their baby is far from ready?
And could they really think that getting it, "sorta OK" would be acceptable?
***But then again, I am always kind of shocked that what must be major known bugs are allowed to slide by. And how do we know that these bugs are known? Because it takes the gaming public all of about 1 day to identify them. :wall:
Barkhorn1x
02-17-2009, 18:27
The video is down, removed due to a copyright claim by Sega. Looks like we weren't meant to see it. Odd.
Not so odd really as it wasn't at all an authorized release and SEGA is well within their rights to remove it. Happens on Youtube all the time.
I am going to be an optimist here (:2thumbsup:) and think the following until shown wrong:
- All of the vids we've seen so far have featured old code so they are not remotely close to the finished product
- The delay from mid Feb until March 4th was needed to get some extra polish time in there and the game ships on the 4th as a finished and polished product
- The demo was delayed to incorporate the latest gold code and when we see it later this week we will be astounded by how good it is.
:yes::laugh4::yes::laugh4::yes:
(...and that's all I have to say about that!)
I mean, how can experienced game developers not know that their baby is far from ready?
We all experienced RTW didn't we? The battle engine was basically a beta: memory leak, bugged group movement etc etc, oh and the primary/secondary weapon stat bug that took a few months before modders spotted that (but nonetheless a quite serious bug) MP was of course screwed with replays not working and at first did not even have a server that could handle more than 30 people.
After such a debacle it was clear someone saw terms like "ready" and "acceptable" in a very different light than others.
I certainly hope ETW will not be the same, actually I doubt it can be that bad. But can anyone be blamed for being pessimistic?
CBR
Sir Beane
02-17-2009, 20:57
Not so odd really as it wasn't at all an authorized release and SEGA is well within their rights to remove it. Happens on Youtube all the time.
I am going to be an optimist here (:2thumbsup:) and think the following until shown wrong:
- All of the vids we've seen so far have featured old code so they are not remotely close to the finished product
- The delay from mid Feb until March 4th was needed to get some extra polish time in there and the game ships on the 4th as a finished and polished product
- The demo was delayed to incorporate the latest gold code and when we see it later this week we will be astounded by how good it is.
:yes::laugh4::yes::laugh4::yes:
(...and that's all I have to say about that!)
Go optimism! :laugh4:
The 'odd' comment was more about how it was odd somebody had obtained a gameplay video that I haven't seen anywhere else. I wonder how they got it? Afterall it wasn't like anything we have seen before. I also think that the commentary had the feeling of being done by an amateur (bad microphone for one thing).
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