Discussion: Bad move! What is fair?

[Fisherking]

ETW is set up so that it may only be played after activation via Steam.

I have no problem with that. That is not what the thread is about.

Amazon, and likely all other mail-order retailers are not shipping the game until the March 4th.

That is where I have a problem!

In the absence of explanation I take it that this is in accord with instructions from CA/Sega and I find it a little infuriating. If one may be a little infuriated…

This is unfair to mail order customers who preordered the product with the intent of having it in hand on release day.

It pretty much negates the reason for preordering at all.

It would seem to give Steam an unfair marketing advantage over and above its already exclusive online distribution.

Steam customers may download the game two days prior to activation, but retailers can not ship to customers! WHY? Or should I ask why not?

When I checked preorders for games at play.com I saw that ETW SF is #2 and ETW is #3 on the list.
I can only assume that figures are similar for the other mail-order retailers.

I am sure that most of us would have dispensed with the bother of preordering the game had we know that its shipping would be delayed until a day or more after it became available in shops and may have instead gone to a local shop and reserved our copy…

Surely there must be some very compelling reason for this in CA/Sega’s eyes.

What the heck is it?


:wall:


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[Merak]

steam could have payed CA for having it one day early or it could be in there agreement with CA from the begining.

I am just glad i did not had to wait 1-2 weeks before having it after the game was released in USA (that was the case in MTW2 IIRC) and those guyse that have downloaded it though steam must download 15 gb al of them at the same time, i realy do not envy them.

so i have no problem with it.

[Polemists]

It would seem to give Steam an unfair marketing advantage over and above its already exclusive online distribution.

That's the point.

It's a 15 gig game, even with 2 days prior preload, i'm sure Steam is figuring only people with fast net are going to actually get it that early, aka hard core gamers. So it's just a minor perk for people who they think may buy the sf edition from steam.

[Fisherking]

That's the point.

It's a 15 gig game, even with 2 days prior preload, i'm sure Steam is figuring only people with fast net are going to actually get it that early, aka hard core gamers. So it's just a minor perk for people who they think may buy the sf edition from steam.

Well, I don’t see it as wise nor do I see it as fair.

It will not help Steam significantly and it treats the most loyal and enthusiastic fans as second class or worse.

The mail order houses should at the very least be able to deliver at the same time the retail shops have the game.

It helps no one!

It is ill conceived and damaging to their image.

[pyradyn]

I agree because Gamestop where I pre-ordered said they get the shipment in late on the 3rd and will be able to sell it to me at 9 am on the 4th I can then activate it at 10 am Mountain Time.

[crazyviking03]

Yeah, I've worked for Amazon.com for the past several years, and if they are not shipping until the 4th (day after release) its because they have been told to. Normal circumstances, Amazon aims to ship preorders so that the customer gets their order on release day, especially this time of year, when business is a little slower, giving extra time to ship standard shipment preorders, and not just 1st or 2nd days. It all depends on the labor and rate for that day, they decide how deep into the order que to dip after all priorities have been picked, packaged and shipped.

[Fisherking]

Yeah, I've worked for Amazon.com for the past several years, and if they are not shipping until the 4th (day after release) its because they have been told to. Normal circumstances, Amazon aims to ship preorders so that the customer gets their order on release day, especially this time of year, when business is a little slower, giving extra time to ship standard shipment preorders, and not just 1st or 2nd days. It all depends on the labor and rate for that day, they decide how deep into the order que to dip after all priorities have been picked, packaged and shipped.

I guess that says it all...

I would rather this not be a big deal, and there is still time for it not to be.

But come the 3rd or 4th of March there are going to be a lot of disappointed people if they don’t have a game in hand, that they have paid for. And many of them are going to be angry when they find out why they don’t have the game.

It would seem to me that this time the preorders are much more in demand than in the past. The interest in this game seems much larger than in the past titles, just from the numbers I see visiting Parliament.

The number of new people who have joined the Guild just to talk about the game is a bit staggering when you look at it.

A lot of the member here are also members at the other forums and word gets around.

These people are not going to be happy campers when they learn that CA or Sega has delayed their copy of the game.

Unhappy members tend to make an inordinate amount of noise and it is not going to help the products sails one bit.

I just hope they quietly make the changes necessary and it never causes a peep….but I guess we will see.


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[Mailman653]

I think unless you picked overnight as your shipping, you won't see it on the 4th. When I got mine from Bestbuy, the email said I should expect it anywhere from the 4th to the 10th. I'm more than certain I won't see it on the 4th since I picked the standard shipping option.

[The Blind Samurai]

thank god im gonna get mine in the store i mean whats the bloody point of waiting for a game when you could walk to the nearset game store and just give the guy the money and get the game it should not be that bloody hard i just see no point in pre ordering

[bscssc]

I can sympathize with your frustration, but here are a couple of things to consider:
1. According to the FAQ on totalwar.com, you don't have to active a retail copy on Steam in order to play the single player. You only need to active for multiplayer. So if people did get their preordered copies early, they could play before the release date.
2.Amazon is often slow in filling preorders. It's a really a problem with pre-orders in general, and not just them, but they seem to have a lot of trouble being timely. So, if having it on day 1 is a priority, I would just look for it at a brick and mortar or get it on Steam and not bother with a pre-order at all.

[knoddy]

1. According to the FAQ on totalwar.com, you don't have to active a retail copy on Steam in order to play the single player. You only need to active for multiplayer. So if people did get their preordered copies early, they could play before the release date.



this will make alot of people happy, me especially cos i hate steam with passion and was the only reason i was thinkin of not buying ETW.

however this is the first i have heard of this up till now it was register on steam for all copies.

[Haxorsist]

1. According to the FAQ on totalwar.com, you don't have to active a retail copy on Steam in order to play the single player. You only need to active for multiplayer. So if people did get their preordered copies early, they could play before the release date.


Where does it say that? It says that you have to authenticate the game on Steam, but after that you don't have to have Steam online to play single player. You won't be allowed to authenticate the game before the 3rd or 4th.

[bscssc]

You may be right. I had read that as saying that activation via Steam requires connecting to the internet, but that activation is only necessary if you want to play online. Now it seems less clear.

[pevergreen]

You need to activate it via steam before using. It will launch via steam (most likely) but you can put steam in offline mode. Obviously to play multiplayer, you will need steam online.

Imagine it is a CD key like it used to be. Instead of typing in the key, you simply let steam realise you have the game installed. It then notes that and that copy can't be used for anyone else.

edit: Empire: Total War will still most likely come with a CD key, and then you activate it as such: https://img187.imageshack.us/img187/9219/twexamplezg4.jpg

Afterwhich it will appear in the Installed Games part of Steam.

[Roka]

this seems to be a bad idea

last year when football manager was released it required activation by steam and there was so much traffic that it took a couple of days before most people could play a game that they had bought

[ArtillerySmoke]

I just picked up Dawn of War 2 today and have to go through the same ridiculous Steam garbage.

Same thing with DoW2 - Different activation periods depending upon region. Just a mess. You wind up with the people who preordered the game waiting, hence rendering preorders now irrelevant.

Still, I have Empire reserved at my local Gamestop and it will arrive on the 4th. I'm glad it isn't showing up on the 3rd because as we know: Steam will lock the game until the 4th anyway.

Steam sucks.

[Fisherking]

Didn’t the site say 1800 GMT March 3rd?

[KozaK13]

Damn i was really hoping to get playing right away without bothering with stam until i went for MP...

Hopefully steam will make up for it someway or another in multiplayer.

[Sir Beane]

Damn i was really hoping to get playing right away without bothering with stam until i went for MP...

Hopefully steam will make up for it someway or another in multiplayer.

Steam has very reliable and stable MP servers, and a reasonable matchmaking service. It also allows you to earn Steam Achivements, thus allowing you to show off to friends :tongue:.

[ArtillerySmoke]

Steam has very reliable and stable MP servers, and a reasonable matchmaking service. It also allows you to earn Steam Achivements, thus allowing you to show off to friends :tongue:.

I've never used Steam yet...so I'll take your word for it on it's reliability and features. I know that many here at the .org think alike and can identify quality as opposed to a heap.

That said, the business aspect of it is what bothered me with this. Paying for and physically possessing a product and not being able to use it (locked out of single player? wtf) for over 24 hours simply because Steam exists as a company, leads to anti-Steam sentiment.

I haven't installed DoW2 yet and probably won't until they fix the Day 1 game breaking MP bug (population bug) but I'll report back on how I like Steam after I use it.

At least it'll be all set up for me when Empire drops.

[Incongruous]

How absurd this is, I will buy a proper, physical copy of Empire, yet CA have seen fit to deny me the right of using that which I have puchased and is now mine by forcing me to go through with some idiotic activation scheme, which due to traffic will probably take ages, what If I have no connection at the time?
Shows a complete disrespect of the consumer.

Oh well, they will all get their dues in the near fuure I suppose.

[ToeAndno]

OK

Dont buy it. Don't play it.

[Incongruous]

OK

Dont buy it. Don't play it.

I see, yet another who sees no issue with the eroding of cunsumer rights, well I do and this is wrong.

[ToeAndno]

I've had Steam for years, never had a problem with it. So for me this is not an issue.

If you indeed feel it is wrong then you will not buy the game.

[Incongruous]

I've had Steam for years, never had a problem with it. So for me this is not an issue.

If you indeed feel it is wrong then you will not buy the game.

Point proven.

When you puchase an item with your hard earned money, it should from then on be yours to do as you wish under the law, which means no copying or other illegal uses which it may be put to. You should not be forced to "activate" a game you now own and have bought in good faith, such an obstruction of use is akin to stealing, CA now has your money yet does not allow you to use their product immediatley after purchase. I find this to be rather shady and dishonest.

[Nelson]

I don’t want this thread to become a lightning rod for various digital rights management issues. So long as the consumer of a digital rights product knows in advance the conditions of lawful use, then no “shady or dishonest” behavior is evident. Calumny will not be tolerated.
Express opinions and speak your mind as you please. But take care to remain civil and nonabrasive.

[ToeAndno]

Surely then, thats the same as having to input a CD key when installing the majority of games.

[Lusitani]

How absurd this is, I will buy a proper, physical copy of Empire, yet CA have seen fit to deny me the right of using that which I have puchased and is now mine by forcing me to go through with some idiotic activation scheme, which due to traffic will probably take ages, what If I have no connection at the time?
Shows a complete disrespect of the consumer.

Oh well, they will all get their dues in the near fuure I suppose.

Exactly!!!

Noone should be "forced" to use steam or whatever for a product one already paid for. Its not even the possible connection issues that bother me, but the abuse and disrespect of a paying consumer. Its the same as saying that ETW isnt a finnished product.

V.

[Mr Frost]

Lets see : a mostly single player game that requires permission from a multi player provider ?
A game someone has payed money for {it will retail here in Queensland for atleast $80} that most people will never play over the internet {ie don't do M.P.} never the less absolutely requires that one connect to the internet {thus , have such a connection working and available at the time} inorder to actually use what one has , again , paid their own money for ?





Either , it is not the case and the disc comes with the usual activation key and that is all that is required

OR

It is a very silly and intrusive descision by Sega for it really sounds too dumb a move to have come from folks at The C/A from what I have gleaned of their apparant intelligence {ie , they seem too smart to do something that dumb} .




None of these sorts of "security" features will stop pirates nor slow them down much {certainly not in proportion to the number of customers whom get annoyed and the degree of said anoyance} as has been demonstrated by the pirated game "industry" yet the providers of such "security" features {and some of which are so badly designed they could be called bugs rather than features like the one that would perminantly disable C.D./D.V.D drives for detecting legitimate to own software} keep managing to fool purse string holding bean counters into using their services .
Major shareholders of the game producing companies {and most other corporations too} really need to stop focusing only on the performance of companies on the stock market and start paying much closer attention to how the corporations they invest vast sums of money into are actually run .
I feel sorry for The C/A having to subject themselves to the system as it stands . It has runed good game companies before today {I wouldn't be the least supprised if one of the biggest reasns The C/A left Activision was Activisions roll in wrecking Troika and Troikas' last game} . [/rant]

[Beskar]

Could be worse, they could have copied EA.

[peacemaker]

It's quite frankly CA's decision. They figure some SP players will be sort of mad, but it will hopefully please MP players. You want them to not have steam? Fine. THey'll go and release the game on release date, and you can get it a week or so later. Or, they can give the game to you later but have you wait politely until March 4th, the RELEASE date, where they intented for players to start playing the game anyway. Steam activation just stops people from just giving the copy to another friend so they can download that for free and not have to pay for the full game, which is what CA wants. If you design a game assuming that each player will pay the full $60, would you be glad if just one person bought the game and gave that game to a bunch of friends so you only get $60 for the game you worked hard on, and were expecting to pay you $60 EACH, not just $60 for like 10 people? Sure, there are plenty of people who have their hacks and whatnot to get past it, but the average gamer(like me!) is too lazy and if it stops them from just easily handing it over to a friend, the average gamer will just say "oh well" and have the friend just buy a copy, therefore giving the game designers the money that they deserve for putting in lots of hard work and effort.

EDIT:I guess, to sum it up, they have steam in order to make sure that most of their customers ARE actually paying. I can personally say that in M2 I changed computers and it didn't care that it was different, there were no issues. This meant I could play from both computers(although the old one is now broken) and if this happened between different friends, you could easily have 10 people playing from 1 copy. The simple steam activation stops this from happening and making sure all customers are actually paying.

[fenir]

Well the only way to make our voices heard, is by not Downloading from steam.

Personally i hate the idea of my computers programs talking to others all the time. And i hate the idea that i have to allow a program to do so. But i can suffer an initial verification. But once then it needs to be over.

But where i really feel for it, is that my cousin is an TW fan and lives in the outback in Australia. He doesn't have internet.

How does he activate the game to play it? Anyway i forgot to tell him, and when he found out, he and his friend, lives next door to them, (about 40km away). Have cancelled their pre orders.


THen with steam, if two people play a modded version of the game, is steam going to recognise that? Or is it going to block it thinking it's a cheat version?

I do hope they have PP play.Thereby stopping steam from being too nosey.
The ability to by pass steam. It's going to be a bugger cracking it.
but will not be impossible.
It also maybe a case for Australian, New Zelaand, and UK laws on right of quiet possession, if people who buy the game cannot play the game. Or have to always rely on steam in which to do so. Thereby involving a 3rd party in the game that have no contract with you.
However if you buy the game from steam, there will be a contract with you and steam, as the retail vendor.
However if purchased from a shop. The contract is with the shop. only under the law of tort will you be able to get at sega behind.
So where the start up verification maybe with steam. I cannot see a problem. Where the problem will come about. is if someone finds out the game keeps talking to the game.
Which then breaches privacy laws.

So if people in these three countries have to be monitored by steam for game use. With out their written consent. Then there is a case to answer for.
Remeber the shrink wrap click if you agree means nothing. It is not law. And hold no legal basis in these three countries.
And any position of companies trying to upsurp the power of law will be seen in a "extremely" disapproving light by the courts.

So my advice. Though not paid for. And holds no legal commitment. Or want of duress, or to enforce any concepts and ideas.
Would be to by your game from a Shop retailer.
Register it with steam. The close off your fire walls to it. If the game then doesn't work. COMPLAIN like hell under Quiet possession of the consumer act.
However. If you have to use steam to play together. You have to accept that you will need to be traffic monitored in some way.



Anyway, those of us that have had steam from the first day. All know the bollocks that steam puts forward. About anti cheats et cetera...
And we all know how to get around them.


These thoughts are my own and do not represent legal adive. Just my experiance with the law.


Sincerely


fenir

[A Very Super Market]

Just clearing something up, Steam does let you mod the game, super-mods included. What I'm not sure about is if a new patch will conflict with the mod.

[peacemaker]

fenrir, sorry but I had trouble reading your last post since the sentences were split up into a ton of tiny ones. like this. and its hard. to read. and understand well. Anyway, my understanding is that you need to activate it once and then you can close steam for all you care and play empire.

[Roka]

Surely then, thats the same as having to input a CD key when installing the majority of games.

not at all, the issue isn't in having to activate the game, i believe the issue is that due to hight traffic you won't be able to play the game on single player right away

[A Very Super Market]

The download speed will be fairly slow when the game is released at first. Just too much traffic. But you will play single player fine

[Incongruous]

not at all, the issue isn't in having to activate the game, i believe the issue is that due to hight traffic you won't be able to play the game on single player right away

Exactly, it is simply bad manners and rude to a paying customer.

[peacemaker]

Aye, there's the rub. There's going to be a mass download and probably take a while, and I will assume that's one of the reasons that CA is allowing people begin downloads DAYS before the actual release date. You may think it's rude to paying customers, but then, they could say it's rude to working employees to bicker about a silly download that they already get a head start on the download SEVERAL DAYS BEFORE RELEASE. They expect this, and with a few days early, you will have a demo finished around the time that release date is. Also, getting a boxed copy would be very helpful indeed as well. That way, you download it right off the CD and only have to activate it off steam. That's what I'm doing. Quite frankly, I'm not certain I know the entire part of your argument here but as my teacher always says:If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Now, I would like to mention I am not trying to offend anybody or make anybody mad, but quite personally I would not just dwell over how evil and rude and awful CA is with steam and maybe go out and get a boxed copy.....:furious3:
Still, I feel lots of pity for those in australia or wherever where there is no internet or there's just reeeeeeeeeeeeeeealy slow internet. Maybe this will cheer you up:

The Andaman islanders, off the coast of india, have been isolated for 60 thousand years. Long story short, they still are unable to make fire. They instead have these elaborate procedures for keeping and transporting embers lit many thousands of years ago. The point of this silly history lesson:I would much rather feel sad having no internet than no ability to make my own fire.:grin:

[quadalpha]

... you're part of the precipitate!

I think pretty much every major release on Steam gets "pre-loading".

It must be damp there.

[ArtillerySmoke]

I can't think of one reason to download the game off Steam. Not one.

Buy the retail disc and download the game off of it onto your HD and then just activate your copy via Steam.

I've never understood why people download full versions of games. So many negatives to that...

[Fisherking]

With Steam Activation it makes no legitimate sense not to allow online outlets not to preship the game.

It cannot be played until the activation time!

Besides I want the English Version. Downloading from Steam is going to give me the German Version and coast me more to boot. Why should I do that.

CA gets the same money for each. It isn’t like they are loosing anything, unless they get a slight cost savings for the downloaded versions.