February Preview!

[-Praetor-]

https://img231.imageshack.us/img231/5488/hoo2qw5.png


Greetings Europa Barbarorum fans.

Today is the day for another Europa Barbarorum II preview! We would like to show you more of the astonishing work of our historians, modelers and skinners, who combined have produced these beautifully crafted units. We will show you renders of three infantry units: the Hoplite, the Thureophoroi and the Peltastai Makedonikoi. We will also show you renders and animations of our latest specialty: our first siege engine for Europa Barbarorum II: the Oxybeles.

Click on the renders to watch a PowerPoint presentation of these units!

In addition, we have new Europa Barbarorum signatures for you, and a little contest with a little prize for the winner. Scroll down to find out!

And last but not least, we have another surprise for you, this time from our Greek Voicemod experts.

Enjoy!


https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5817/divider800pa6.png

The Hoplitai

https://img25.imageshack.us/img25/7874/hoplitai3il5.png (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1raC03lQk2k)


These troops were the symbol of Hellenic liberty and devotion to the polis. These highly motivated citizen soldiers were once the dominant form of fighting in the Hellenic world. During the later Hellenistic period, these troops, while still present on the battlefield, lost the protagonism they had enjoyed during older times. After the introduction of new ways to do war on the Hellenic mainland, these troops underwent a continuous modification of their equipment, in an effort to adapt to these emerging conditions. Consequently, they were outfitted with good quality linen armour, helmets of various designs, doru spears, xyphos shortswords and their ever-present aspis shields. They underwent a progressive lightening of their equipment, in line with the Hellenic tendency of producing more mobile troops, whilst still maintaining a degree of protection enough to enable them to be troops of the line.

They still fought as their fathers' fathers had done, in a tightly welded shield wall that traded mobility for mutual protection. This formation was the epitome of Hellenic selflessness, esprit de corps and sacrifice, for each hoplite entrusted his protection to the soldier on his right, while covering his brother on his left. However, this formation was being rendered progressively obsolete by the third century BC, by the prevalence of more mobile troops like the Peltastai and the Thureophoroi.

Despite of the fact that the Hoplitai represented an ageing fighting style, their motivation was second-to-none, and they still personified the Hellenic military ethos displayed by their ancestors.
In 3rd century Hellas, these troops still defended their motherland from both external and domestic threats with the same merit, virtue and patriotism as that which had been exhibited by their elders.

Renders:


Macedonian Hoplites:

https://img152.imageshack.us/img152/411/16845776rm6.jpg

https://img152.imageshack.us/img152/2753/76929584vt9.jpg

https://img394.imageshack.us/img394/8743/56723418zf5.jpg

https://img13.imageshack.us/img13/2084/39144705fl8.jpg

Ptolemaic Hoplites

https://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8646/99382705ww7.jpg

https://img22.imageshack.us/img22/3239/22865682zt3.jpg

Mercenary Hoplites:

https://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5941/57591692xf2.jpg

https://img17.imageshack.us/img17/8360/10972600oo6.jpg

https://img78.imageshack.us/img78/9493/92153224vv9.jpg

https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/9355/41954579xl9.jpg







https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5817/divider800pa6.png

The Thureophoroi

https://img16.imageshack.us/img16/6264/thureophoroimak2mn9.png (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8H9w-gayGU)


The deployment of the Thureophoroi (Thureos Carrier) was one of the many aspects in which the Hellenic warfare adapted to the new conditions of the third century BC battlefields. These units were named after their shields, the Thureos, an elliptical shield massively adopted in Hellas after the Galatian invasions of the third century BC. These shields were made of wood and covered in leather, and had a central horizontal grip. Thureophoroi also wore good quality reinforced linen armour and helmets of various designs. They were armed with a doru spear and a xypho shortsword, and had a clutch of javelins that augmented their hitting power. They were also equipped with Macedonian boots, which gives us a clear hint about their role in the field of battle.

These highly disciplined and courageous troops embodied the principle of mobility on the battlefield, and fulfilled the role of being flexible units that had the initiative to react to the changing conditions on the battlefield, something that a hoplite or a Macedonian phalangite could not. For instance, a Thureophoroi unit could quickly mobilize and reinforce a faltering wing, and thus prevent the breaking of the line. Their light but sturdy equipment allowed them to perform quick flanking actions, and to anchor and exploit breaches in the enemy line. However, they were not assault troops, and their armour, while of good quality, was not so heavy as to enable them to confront the heaviest and best-equipped enemy troops.

The key word to define these troops is versatility; but, like every Jack of all trades, they were master of none.

Renders:


Macedonian Thureophoroi

https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/566/59784575oj4.jpg

https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/8600/48021637fn5.jpg

https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1448/97634425cn4.jpg

https://img8.imageshack.us/img8/9481/70913187xb9.jpg

https://img24.imageshack.us/img24/6674/98097660lw0.jpg

Ptolemaic Thureophoroi

https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5610/28779437lr5.jpg

https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/7870/83341395uc2.jpg

https://img7.imageshack.us/img7/104/86269076ob5.jpg

https://img13.imageshack.us/img13/6598/95142770im6.jpg

"Occultus" Thureophoroi

https://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2616/52927761ph4.jpg

https://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5590/80552454pm9.jpg






https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5817/divider800pa6.png

The Peltastai Makedonikoi

https://img515.imageshack.us/img515/1962/pletastaimakedonikoiepepq5.png (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kO1LYrMa1w)


The need of heavy, steadfast and sufficiently mobile assault troops in the Hellenistic kingdoms was fulfilled by units like the Peltastai Makedonikoi. This unit's name ressembles that of the unarmoured and pelte-equipped Thracian skirmisher of the fifth century. However, these troops, aside from their name, have little in common with that extremely mobile light infantry unit. They were equipped with reinforced linen and leather thorakes, a heavy shield 60cm in diameter, richly adorned helmets, greaves, good quality blades and a clutch of javelins.

These units were richly adorned, and were made up of the best men the kingdom had to offer: noblemen's sons in their prime physical condition, relentlessly trained to become an elite special unit.

Mindful of the fact that such a heavily outfitted, highly trained unit could not run around the battlefield performing the simpler task of the older Peltastai, the Strategos of the Diadochoi utilized these troops in fortress assaults, where their javelins could pepper wall defenders and their equipment enabled them to fight in such lethal environments. They were also utilized to carry out special tasks, such as exploiting gaps in the enemy line and hitting the enemy hard from their rear or their flank. They were some of the best assault troops available, and could be used as such if the situation called for it.

However, these troops were not as heavily armoured as their cousins, the Hypaspistai, and while both were considered as Agema and belonged to the Basilike Ile or royal squadron, it should not be confused as to what function corresponds to who in the battlefield.

Renders:


Macedonian Peltastai Makedonikoi:

https://img383.imageshack.us/img383/8889/42620226rc7.jpg

https://img134.imageshack.us/img134/6700/53240898mz1.jpg

https://img383.imageshack.us/img383/9800/66498553lq6.jpg

https://img383.imageshack.us/img383/1207/78752415wl9.jpg

Epirote Peltastai Makedonikoi

https://img11.imageshack.us/img11/5498/47876423mz9.jpg

https://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8020/51605155co3.jpg

https://img9.imageshack.us/img9/1254/42505187nx1.jpg

Ptolemaic Peltastai Makedonikoi

https://img11.imageshack.us/img11/968/11035719lb8.jpg

https://img11.imageshack.us/img11/55/31390934fj8.jpg

Seleucid Peltastai Makedonikoi

https://img11.imageshack.us/img11/7731/39493650rp5.jpg

https://img11.imageshack.us/img11/2363/75766863hr8.jpg







https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5817/divider800pa6.png

The Oxybeles

https://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1985/oxybelesnew5vd7.png (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXway_cIvCo)


The ΚΑΤΑΠΕΛΤΗΣ ΟΞΥΒΕΛΗΣ (Katapeltes Oxybeles) was an arrow-shooting engine, akin to its stone projector sibling, the Katapeltes Lithoboloi. It was used primarily in sieges, by both the attacking and defending side.

This siege engine represented an evolution from the earlier flexion-based Katapeltes, such as the Gastrophetes or ''belly bow'', The Oxybeles stored the energy to fire its projectiles by the twisting of the ropes installed on its frame. This means that the energy storing mechanism relied not on the flexion of the bow, but on the torsion of sinews or ropes located inside its frame. The energy, after careful aiming of the weapon, was then violently discharged by the katapeltaphetes (catapult operator) by releasing the ratchet's brake. The box over which the arrow rested was then thrown forward, transferring the momentum to the projectile. This differed from other shooting mechanisms where the cord directly impelled the projectile, like the Lithoboloi or Stone Projector.

This machine was designed as a precision shooting Katapeltes, one that could be aimed by the katapeltaphetes at individual soldiers. This precision, along with its potency, was one of the hallmarks of this weapon. Megas Alexandros was reputed to have been knocked down by a projectile launched from such an engine, and Antigonos Monopthalmos owed his surname to one of these devices.

Along with its bigger brothers, such as the Talantaioi Lithoboloi, or ''One Talent Stone Projector'', the Oxybeles formed a substantial part of the siege weapon echelon of assaulting armies, and was instrumental in the defence of cities and fortresses.

Renders:


https://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1342/oxybelesnew1ym8.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

https://img14.imageshack.us/img14/6515/oxybelesnew2dk5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

https://img14.imageshack.us/img14/7162/oxybelesnew3sk5.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

https://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2439/oxybelesnew4sp3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)

https://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1747/oxybelesnew5kl3.jpg (https://imageshack.us)




https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5817/divider800pa6.png

[-Praetor-]

https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5817/divider800pa6.png


Signatures


We have yet another gift for you. Lewagal has made a new set of sigs for you to use, using renders from Europa Barbarorum I units. Enjoy!


https://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4198/aeduieu0.pnghttps://img105.imageshack.us/img105/7915/baktriacg3.png

https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/5247/41038006zc7.pnghttps://img124.imageshack.us/img124/7493/swebozfq7.png

https://img19.imageshack.us/img19/3118/romaniwl3.pnghttps://img10.imageshack.us/img10/7897/hayasdanew1.png

https://img164.imageshack.us/img164/8065/karthadastimsy5.pnghttps://img164.imageshack.us/img164/4510/lusotannanua8.png

https://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3135/pahlavaeb9.pnghttps://img10.imageshack.us/img10/4817/sabaie9.png

https://img406.imageshack.us/img406/4130/epeirosrw9.pnghttps://img5.imageshack.us/img5/8210/getaiqj2.png

https://img26.imageshack.us/img26/4343/archeseleukiaco9.pnghttps://img406.imageshack.us/img406/394/macedonat1.png


And today, we have a special gift for you. You probably have seen the new makedonian signatures, such as this one made by Foot (https://img291.imageshack.us/img291/1702/merchoplitebannernn3.jpg). We would like you to create signatures with the following picture:

https://img149.imageshack.us/img149/7773/49585863ce6oo9.jpg (https://imageshack.us)
(The green background makes the hoplites easier to crop)

We are expecting high-end results such as this sig made by Lewagal (https://img385.imageshack.us/img385/9969/21552818jx2.png). We will open a thread where you can post your works of art, and the winner gets exclusive access to renders of a new undisclosed unit!

We wish you all very good luck!


https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5817/divider800pa6.png


Voice Mod Commands


Now, we have another surprise, this time from our voicemod team: Hellenic voicemod commands and associated text. Here are some words from Keraunos:

The following .rtf text has all the battle .wavs that you will hear on the battlefield as well as their phonetic representation in plain English. The first of them were transliterated by an American member of our team to get people acquainted with the sounds of Ancient Greek, the second part is by me, and the Ancient Greek text is also provided, in case people want to see the text they listen and hopefully repeat.

Hellenic Voicemod Commands. (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=1FBMD49D)

The .rtf you see was used in the reconstruction of the five Hellenic voices you hear ingame. It was a truly remarcable feat. I hope you enjoy this and experiment what the voicemod actors did back in that studio. This way you will truly comprehend how difficult Ancient Greek pronunciation was and how different to the Modern Greek equivalent it is.

I hope you enjoy this little surprise from the EB team. Keravnos.


Note: It seems that there are some problems with opening the sound files inside the .rtf document. To listen to the voice mod commands, open the file with word pad and right click on a speaker. Then go to "Sound Recorder" from "Object" and hit play.




https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5817/divider800pa6.png


Special Thanks


Every member's work is fundamental to produce the results we have shown to you today. Historians, researchers, modellers, skinners, voice actors, coders, testers, coordinators, every one of them is important in our team. But we would like to give special thanks to Alin for the beautiful renders, the exquisitely crafted models, and particularly for the Oxybeles model, skin and animation. We would like to thank Leif Erikson too for the marvellous Thureophoroi and Peltastai Makedonikoi skins and textures, and Martellus Flavius for the breathtaking Hoplite skins and textures. We would also like to thank Lewagal for his beautiful signatures, and keravnos for his work on the Hellenic Voicemod Team, part of which we have shown you here today.

We would also like to thank Morgan Casey and Nick Wylie for the great music that we have used on this preview, and The Persian Cataphract for his two amazing new themes: "Baktria Prevails" and "The Age of Fragmentation", which you can hear in the Hoplitai and Peltastai Makedonikoi videos respectively.



https://img12.imageshack.us/img12/5817/divider800pa6.png


Please note that unless stated otherwise, ALL pictures, names, and descriptions shown in our previews are works in progress. We continue to improve on all parts of EB, and we will continue to do so long after our initial release.

As always, if you have questions or comments, the best place to post them is here, where the EB team is most active:

Europa Barbarorum ORG forum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70)

Europa Barbarorum TWC forum (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31)

We give special thanks to Image Shack (http://www.imageshack.co.us) that provides us with a simple, foolproof, and free way to show you all these pictures each week.

Have a great day!

Regards,

The Europa Barbarorum team.

[anubis88]

Wow.... Damn... I was trying my best to forget about EBII since the wait would just kill me, but now that i've seen this I CAN'T WAIT FOR IT TO COME OUT!:clown:

Great job EBII team... Just Awesome:smash:

[Phalanx300]

Awesome Preview!!! :2thumbsup:

I especially liked my beloved Hoplites! Though about the animation for attack with the Hoplites, it turns his shields all the way to the left, it seems to me that in a Phalanx this would be a costy mistake leaving yourself open like that. Other then that awesome preview!:yes:

[burn_again]

Great preview! These units are beautiful.

The Persian Cataphract: I like your music, well done.

[SwissBarbar]

Ok, now it's clear. I will give up my job and play EB II 20 hours a day (the other 4 hours are for eating, speeping, having sex, playing EB 1 and stuff).

[athanaric]

Great preview :2thumbsup:

Really beautiful graphics. The signatures are awesome, although I would have used other units for the Romani and Swêboz ones. But that's just a matter of personal taste.

[-Praetor-]

Though about the animation for attack with the Hoplites, it turns his shields all the way to the left, it seems to me that in a Phalanx this would be a costy mistake leaving yourself open like that.

This has been noted, and remember:


Please note that unless stated otherwise, ALL pictures, names, and descriptions shown in our previews are works in progress. We continue to improve on all parts of EB, and we will continue to do so long after our initial release.

:grin:

[satalexton]

ALL HAIL MAKEDONIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *faints*

[Ibn-Khaldun]

Those were really-really-really beautiful units!!!! Very nice preview indeed!

(I really-really-really need to buy Kingdoms now!!) :shame:

[Meneldil]

There's an occultus variation of the Thureophoroi. Anyone willing to guess which faction it belongs to ?

One of them has a Vergina Sun on its shield, but as far as I know, it was a symbol used in most of the Hellenic world. Pergamese maybe?

[Vasiliyi]

WOW! I cant wait for EBII to come out! :2thumbsup: Awesome job EB team!

[athanaric]

There's an occultus variation of the Thureophoroi. Anyone willing to guess which faction it belongs to ?

Since Pergamon has been confirmed to be in EB II, my guess is that this variation belongs to yet another new faction. Perhaps the Bosphoran kingdom?

[HunGeneral]

A wonderfull preview I must say!

I have been convinced not to buy Medieval II by two things - gameplay problems (graphic ones confirmed by one of my friends) and High engine requirements...

Now having seen what a great work the EB team has done (till now...) - I might reconsider buying a better computer some day and buying Medieval II.

These models look fantastic - the Hoplitai seem like they could hold against anything. The Thureophoroi seem so eager to get at the flanks of the enemy forces and the Peltastai Makedonikoi seem ready to become that famous arrow...:2thumbsup::2thumbsup::2thumbsup:

The signatures are simply awesome.

I can hardly find words to express my admiration to all the work the EB team has done and must say that I wish the best of luck to all of them in the future.

[Cyrus]

:yes::beam::smash::balloon2::verycool:~:):charge:~D
Great job guys!!!!!!!!!!!!i can't wait for EBII to come out.

[I Am Herenow]

I might reconsider buying a better computer some day and buying Medieval II.

Remember, you'll need Kingdoms too! :2thumbsup:

I Am Herenow

[A Terribly Harmful Name]

A preview? Am I dreaming?

[Phalanx300]

Haven't noticed those occultus Thureophoroi, do they belong to a as of yet not announced faction?

Occultus does mean that I think, which gives us reason to believe that there will be another Hellenic faction! :idea2:

[Dutchhoplite]

Looks great :)

[-Praetor-]

Haven't noticed those occultus Thureophoroi, do they belong to a as of yet not announced faction?

Occultus does mean that I think, which gives us reason to believe that there will be another Hellenic faction! :idea2:

Not neccesarily, Pahlava had thureophoroi in EB1 and wasn't hellenic. :dozey:

[runner3434]

Love the slightly secret video

thanks

[-Praetor-]

Love the slightly secret video

thanks

:speechless:

Which one? There are 4 videos, one for each unit. You must click on the renders to watch them.

[runner3434]

Sorry the hoplitai one only shows up as a cross to me.

Edit:fine now

thanks

[jabarto]

I'm a sucker for pretty shields, and that one carried by the The Peltastai Makedonikoi is drop dead gorgeous. Very nice work.

[desert]

Woah.

/KeanuReeves


:balloon2:

[Phalanx300]

Not neccesarily, Pahlava had thureophoroi in EB1 and wasn't hellenic. :dozey:

I see, then I will come to this conclusion:

The occultus belong to a mini-succesor state, wasn't there at the start of this time frame another diadochi just above the Seleucids. They had the symbol of a wasp I believe.

[Ibrahim]

:jawdrop::jawdrop::jawdrop::jawdrop:

this is amazing man!!:sweatdrop:

@Lewagal: awesome sigs man! I'll rep you for this. (at TWceneter of course)

EDIT: will there be a hellenic or hellenic inspired faction, based on the Occultus? :inquisitive:

[abou]

You mean Hellenistic.

[Antinous]

THE GATES TO HEAVEN HAVE OPENED!!!!!!!!!! (Fainting and having a heart attack from exitement)

[bobbin]

nice.:yes:

[Novellus]

Hooray!

Hmm....I think Alin was pulling my leg when he said that the miniature pictures of the Oxybelai were "just crosses". And he said that the next preview wouldn't be until April 1st. I have a feeling that he's a part of the EB Official Disinformation team. :wall:

By the way, I am guessing that the Hoplitai do not have swords due to engine limitations like in the RTW engine?

[antisocialmunky]

Yippee. Here's to the Gaza campaign for the next preview! Hey, I can dream can't I?

PS. Those Hoplitae must have really great dental plans. :-D

[a completely inoffensive name]

Yes! Seeing those awesome new units pumped me up! Why is it that every time I start to wander from the EB2 forums, a new preview is released? (Rhetorical question) :clown:

[Tux]

Hmm....I think Alin was pulling my leg when he said that the miniature pictures of the Oxybelai were "just crosses". And he said that the next preview wouldn't be until April 1st. I have a feeling that he's a part of the EB Official Disinformation team. :wall:

Hehe:grin: I would have ruin the surprise or better said surprises if i would said something else.:tongue:

[machinor]

Great preview! Those units look fantastic, especially the Peltastai Makedonikoi (I think it's quite interesting, that the Ptolemaioi will have them too in EB2)!! :2thumbsup:

Those Hoplitai got me thinking though... how distinguishable will each factions units be with all this variation? I mean, sure, the Peltastai Makedonikoi seem to have some kind of recurring colors but the Hoplitai...? I couldn't distinguish the Macedonian from the Ptolemaioi ones. Please don't get this wrong! I love the variation in the panoplia which gives the overall visual experience a whole new level. But still, I'm a bit concerned. :dizzy2:

Keep it up! :yes:

[mlc82]

*faints*

[penguinking]

Amazing! All three units are absolutely gorgeous.

[Mjolnir]

Sweet.

[delablake]

All hail the EB team!

[Subedei]

Oh gods! Awesome work gentlemen! The beauty, the possibilities, the joy! :2thumbsup: Really loooooooking forward to this release...now off to play Hay in EBI to stop thinking about EBII....

[Martelus Flavius]

Those Hoplitai got me thinking though... how distinguishable will each factions units be with all this variation? I mean, sure, the Peltastai Makedonikoi seem to have some kind of recurring colors but the Hoplitai...? I couldn't distinguish the Macedonian from the Ptolemaioi ones. Please don't get this wrong! I love the variation in the panoplia which gives the overall visual experience a whole new level. But still, I'm a bit concerned. :dizzy2:


Well actually Hoplitai have none recurring colors, they are not equipped by state! Their regional appartenance appears on the shield, each symbol corresponding to a region or city, but certain are simply used in the whole hellenic world...

Actually the better way to distinguish yours from the ennemies ones is : Ennemy's direction facing Hoplite are yours, and those whose slaughter your soldiers are not yours!!! :laugh4:

Regards

Martel

[Matinius Brutus]

Everything is so beautiful! And the voicemod commands sound awsome!!! Actually they are the ones that made me realise how complex and time-consuming this is. Thanx EB team!

[Sarkiss]

now that is quality worthy of EB.
thanks :thumbsup:

[ray243]

Well actually Hoplitai have none recurring colors, they are not equipped by state! Their regional appartenance appears on the shield, each symbol corresponding to a region or city, but certain are simply used in the whole hellenic world...

Actually the better way to distinguish yours from the ennemies ones is : Ennemy's direction facing Hoplite are yours, and those whose slaughter your soldiers are not yours!!! :laugh4:

Regards

Martel

Then how did the Hoplites distinguish friends from foe? The ancient problem of 'friendly fire'.

[Ibrahim]

You mean Hellenistic.

yes.

[JMRC]

Those Hoplitai got me thinking though... how distinguishable will each factions units be with all this variation? [...] I couldn't distinguish the Macedonian from the Ptolemaioi ones. [...]


Then how did the Hoplites distinguish friends from foe? The ancient problem of 'friendly fire'.

Let me complement what Martelus Flavius already explained: this "battlefield confusion" is exactly the kind of feeling that we want players to have. In fact, I will encourage players to enhance that feeling by removing the green markers and the factional flags hovering above the units. This basically turns the battlefield into a gigantic "mess" when units break through the enemy ranks and attack from the rear. Then, not even the overall heading of the units will be enough to distinguish them. Just like a "real" commander of those days, ordering a retreat from the melee may not be an easy task and probably will be costly in terms of casualties. Of course, you can turn the green markers and the flags and everything will be easier...

The interested players will learn to distinguish the factions by the shield designs and (in some cases) by the different coloring of linothoraxes.

However, there will be some cases where factions share the same unit and skin (normally in low class units, where a peasant and his "equipment" would be common throughout a large geographical area). In those cases, the confusion will be enormous, yes.

[ray243]

Let me complement what Martelus Flavius already explained: this "battlefield confusion" is exactly the kind of feeling that we want players to have. In fact, I will encourage players to enhance that feeling by removing the green markers and the factional flags hovering above the units. This basically turns the battlefield into a gigantic "mess" when units break through the enemy ranks and attack from the rear. Then, not even the overall heading of the units will be enough to distinguish them. Just like a "real" commander of those days, ordering a retreat from the melee may not be an easy task and probably will be costly in terms of casualties. Of course, you can turn the green markers and the flags and everything will be easier...

The interested players will learn to distinguish the factions by the shield designs and (in some cases) by the different coloring of linothoraxes.

However, there will be some cases where factions share the same unit and skin (normally in low class units, where a peasant and his "equipment" would be common throughout a large geographical area). In those cases, the confusion will be enormous, yes.

I mean historically, how does a hoplite separate a friend from foe then?

[Ibrahim]

I mean historically, how does a hoplite separate a friend from foe then?

they just said.

[runner3434]

I am fixed on it now, no banners and general cam only, that way i will have the hardest possible EB2 expeirence, something that might just make up for the ai.

Thanks

[JMRC]

I mean historically, how does a hoplite separate a friend from foe then?

Imagine yourself in a long hoplite formation, with your well-known farming neighbors in front and behind you, heavy helmets which prevent most of your hearing and a lot of the visual field; there's another line several meters ahead, with shield designs that you know belong to the rival city-state.

Then the guys behind you start pushing, so you push the guy in front; all the way until the actual clash. Then, a bloody mess of arms, metal clashing, shouting, screaming. You just look ahead and you see the metal mass of the front guy's helmet. And you pray to keep seeing it until the enemy line breaks and runs. That should take a couple of hours, probably less if under a scorching afternoon. If you get to be the first in the rank you'll keep behind the shieldwall and hit everyone that faces you.

If the shieldwall is broken and you have to turn back to run, pray that the guys behind you also turn and run, otherwise you'll feel a spearhead or worse hitting your back.

I hope this answers your question.

[Gaias]

Sweet Gebus! Those are some fantastic looking units.

Can't wait to see them covered in their own blood when my good roman steel runs them through. :beam:

[Baldamundo]

Let me complement what Martelus Flavius already explained: this "battlefield confusion" is exactly the kind of feeling that we want players to have. In fact, I will encourage players to enhance that feeling by removing the green markers and the factional flags hovering above the units. This basically turns the battlefield into a gigantic "mess" when units break through the enemy ranks and attack from the rear. Then, not even the overall heading of the units will be enough to distinguish them. Just like a "real" commander of those days, ordering a retreat from the melee may not be an easy task and probably will be costly in terms of casualties. Of course, you can turn the green markers and the flags and everything will be easier...

The interested players will learn to distinguish the factions by the shield designs and (in some cases) by the different coloring of linothoraxes.

However, there will be some cases where factions share the same unit and skin (normally in low class units, where a peasant and his "equipment" would be common throughout a large geographical area). In those cases, the confusion will be enormous, yes.

You really are evil, aren't you? ~:mecry:

[theoldbelgian]

ok this is great great great great etc

I am only confused with the A on the makedons shield or was sparta not the only ones who used it

I am very certain that I am completely wrong because the gods cannot make mistakes
[searches for a virgin to slaughter on the holy altar of EB]

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Sparta used the lambda (and "A" without a "cross"). An "A" doesn't represent Sparta.

[theoldbelgian]

ah ok

I never had a course greek (some basic latin but not greek)
see I was right that I was wrong

[Ludens]

EDIT: will there be a hellenic or hellenic inspired faction, based on the Occultus? :inquisitive:

What do you mean with "based on the Occultus"? Occultus just means hidden. In the past, the EB team used the term for factions that had yet to be revealed.

[Ibrahim]

What do you mean with "based on the Occultus"? Occultus just means hidden. In the past, the EB team used the term for factions that had yet to be revealed.

I know what it means-moros explained this in detail. I was guessing that it (the mystery faction) was a hellenistic faction or influenced from hellenistic factions, though I could be wrong, and that it is just a faction that just happened to have used hellenistic style soldiers (thureophoroi).:clown:

[antisocialmunky]

Well, if its not the Pergamum Hoplite, that would be sweet. The Western Greek colonies would be sweet.

[V.T. Marvin]

I am only confused with the A on the makedons shield or was sparta not the only ones who used it?


[searches for a virgin to slaughter on the holy altar of EB]

As MAA already explained, the sign on Spartan shield is actually L - for Lakedaimon (i.e. Sparta).

All sorts of abbreviations were used throughout the hellenic world and usually refered to deities. Therefore A, could stand Athena, Aftrodita or Artemis, depending on which one was the most favourite deity of the owner.
To disambiguate between various possible interpretations other forms were used regularly, like ATHA for Athena...

[-Praetor-]

Therefore A, could stand Athena, Aftrodita or Artemis, depending on which one was the most favourite deity of the owner.

Or Argos, Anfiction, Akraiphia, Aigys, Askra... basically any polis that starts with an A could be the reference of that shield...

[paullus]

and most of the hoplitai in Makedonian armies would have been Hellenes, not Makedonians, thus we used shield devices from those regions and city-states which most often contributed troops to their armies.

as for IFF difficulties, the "royal" units will probably end up being more uniform than they are now (single color or shades of a single color on all their shields, for example) which will help to some extent, though the colors may actually be very similar between Hellenistic kingdoms. Just remember, we'll have men carrying banners, that'll help.

[Martelus Flavius]

Well, if its not the Pergamum Hoplite, that would be sweet. The Western Greek colonies would be sweet.

It is absolutely not in our habit, to label somethin already revelead as occultus... Isn't it?

Sincerly yours

Martel

[Phalanx300]

Then it is confirmed, there will be another Hellenic or Hellenic influenced faction in EB2 besides Pergamon! :idea2:

[Subotan]

Curses! I bug the EB team for weeks to bring up another Stele, and then my computer breaks, so the EB team releases a Stele. *Mutters*
Looks good though EBers. Keep up the good work.

[Anakuj]

EB Team,

I have never seen such a marvellous, enthralling piece of art ever!

All the best, and Keep It Up!

[machinor]

Just remember, we'll have men carrying banners, that'll help.
SWEET!! :2thumbsup:

[Bucefalo]

I love them!

Although i don´t know if someone mentioned this before, but some of the screens look to bright to me, i guess that is because of the render or something like that. I think they´d look even better ingame, in the video preview they looked less bright and more real, so i have no worries at all:2thumbsup:

Keep up the good work!

[Banzai!]

Ingame screenshots! Ingame screenshots!

[Gazius]

Looks great - I can't wait to play with it, and thanks for releasing another Stele. It may delay the final release, but we've already waited years for it, a few more days won't kill us but a lack of info certainly hurts.

[-Praetor-]

it may delay the final release

Nah, don't worry. :2thumbsup:

On the contrary, it motivates us to keep working and gives eye candy to attract skinners or modellers :rolleyes:

[Megas Methuselah]

God Almighty, this preview is awesome. Get to work, EB Team! :smile:

[soibean]

gorgeous units... I love the diversity of the units' appearances, thank you for the update

[Cyrus]

Yeah great preview guys!:laugh4::clown::beam:
get to work Eb team!:whip::whip:
:clown:JK:clown:

[eddy_purpus]

This has to be the best Skins ever made in a TW Game and any other video game...
For realz:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
Theyre Fd-Au GORGEOUS :D:leo::leo::leo::leo::leo::leo:

[Megas Methuselah]

Yeah, those hoplites and thureophoroi really turn me on. :laugh4:

[KLAssurbanipal]

Very nice models!

[SwissBarbar]

Looking forward to seeing the March-Preview :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: I wonder how the Roman Legionnaires look, and the African and Indian elephants.

[bobbin]

I wonder how the Roman Legionnaires look, and the African and Indian elephants.

You get a quick glimpse of some elephants at the end of the animation video in stele 7.:2thumbsup:

edit: here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVZC8sf1qWU

[Shadowwalker]

This is as always a very promising piece of information. Really like the style of your previews. And the content is even better. :2thumbsup: The overall quality of the features you revealed is unbelievably high.

Really looking forward to EB II.
Take all the time you need. We will wait (un-)patiently. ~:)

[Perturabo]

Now that work is waaay beyond being impressive!

..sorta come to expect that of the EB team though :2thumbsup:

I must say that fighting EB with banners etc off gives a totally new and far improved experience. I can see EBII with the varied models taking that one step further. The banner bearers will be a must though.

I don't know how long it will take but its going to be worth the wait and then some!

Keep it up guys.

[Cartaphilus]

Then it is confirmed, there will be another Hellenic or Hellenic influenced faction in EB2 besides Pergamon! :idea2:

I bet for the crimean greek cities.


PD: Awesome job. I can't wait till the next preview.

[SwissBarbar]

You get a quick glimpse of some elephants at the end of the animation video in stele 7.:2thumbsup:

edit: here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVZC8sf1qWU

Cool ^^ Thx

[Reno Melitensis]

There are no words to describe your work, keep up the good work.:2thumbsup:

Cheers.

[Decimus]

Awesome keep em coming

[geala]

It's really fantastic what you made of the models. I will patiently wait for the best TW mod ever.

But, I think you got already bored of all the praises. ~;)
So let me make a critical remark, or better, a critical question: I still think that a thoureophoros usually had no body armor. A thoureophoros with armor was then a thorakitai imho. Or not? For games sake it's surely ok to give armor to more units than in reality. And a thoureophoros is not one of the cheap and simple units in the game. But: are there really sources from which we can distinct armored thoureophoroi and thorakitai (which you depict as more heavily armored with mail instead of linen)?

[Labrat]

It'll be hard to find the thread again, but there is an old post explaining why thureophoroi are depicted as heavy infantry. IIRC it was because at least one chronicler mentioned thureophoroi being singled out with "other heavy infantry". Off course, it should be kept in mind that "unit types" are not as well-defined in history as in EB: thureophoroi may have meant different things depending on time and place. The team has also decided to go with the "heaviest" possible interpretation of each unit.

[MeinPanzer]

It'll be hard to find the thread again, but there is an old post explaining why thureophoroi are depicted as heavy infantry. IIRC it was because at least one chronicler mentioned thureophoroi being singled out with "other heavy infantry". Off course, it should be kept in mind that "unit types" are not as well-defined in history as in EB: thureophoroi may have meant different things depending on time and place. The team has also decided to go with the "heaviest" possible interpretation of each unit.

I'd be curious to hear which source groups thureophoroi with heavy infantry, because one of the only sources that I know in which a specific categorical mention of thureophoroi is made is Polybius' account of the crossing of the Elburz range, in which he classes both thureophoroi and thorakitai in with the light infantrymen.

[Lovejoy]

Great preview. Just downloaded M2TW demo to see if my computer could handle it, it did! So now I'm really looking forward to EB2.

[Ibrahim]

I'd be curious to hear which source groups thureophoroi with heavy infantry, because one of the only sources that I know in which a specific categorical mention of thureophoroi is made is Polybius' account of the crossing of the Elburz range, in which he classes both thureophoroi and thorakitai in with the light infantrymen.

didn't you mention, IIRC, in a thread a long time ago that all/almost all thureophoroi were without body armor?

well, look on the bright side: the units are still WIP, so if you can bring all your evidence together in a focused post, maybe they will see about it.

[keravnos]

I'd be curious to hear which source groups thureophoroi with heavy infantry, because one of the only sources that I know in which a specific categorical mention of thureophoroi is made is Polybius' account of the crossing of the Elburz range, in which he classes both thureophoroi and thorakitai in with the light infantrymen.

Mp, I have profound respect for your views and thank you for your continuing presence. Thanks for putting this forth, as I know there are others there who share the same views, on what our sources are.

First and foremost, literary sources, good as they may be for getting a picture of the people at that time can't be considered 100% accurate, as writers of that time would call things with one name, whereas they would be called something different by another. This must not be the case with Polybios, as he was Hipparchos of the Achaike Sympoliteia (Achaian League) from 170-169 BCE.

Having said that, the tactical realities of the day were such that sometimes heavy infantry would be mingled with light infantry, being called light altogether or what have you or mixed with cavalry to achieve victory as Julius Caesar himself did in Greece against Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pharsalus
It would depend on the commander on the ground and how he would use his troops at hand to go against military axioms and win (as the opposing general might be trapped by the "do's" and "dont's") of military doctrine, leaving the hapless historian in a jumbled mess, trying to find who was who, doing what on the battlefield.

This is further complicated when one takes into account that when a "barbarian" faction would assault, it would sometimes incorporate in its host heavy infantry, lighter infantry, gaesetae (naked men with just a thureos), spearmen and swordsmen, all of them combined. How do you call them? I guess one would have to pick by either percentage of each composing element, or their role in the battlefield. This would have been a challenge to the historian back then, that is for sure.

Then, something unimaginably simple comes along... Archaeological finds.
When you have thureos (meaning literally door in ancient greek) carrying troops who are clad in muscle cuirass like the following...


https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos4/statuette2.jpg
and
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o276/keravnos/Keravnos4/statuette1.jpg


it is difficult to classify them (found in present day Anatolia IIRC) as NOT heavy. The fact that they carry the thureos and are armored (thorax in greek) would deffinitely mean that they are thorakitai. There is no doubt in my mind that those are bronze muscle thorakes.

There is also an indirect quote for them. When Philopoemen reformed the Achaian League's army, he had his troops drop his thureos in favor of a small aspis and pike, "in the makedonian manner" in order to beat the Spartans (along with Antigonos Doson's troops at Sellassia). This means that prior to that they mostly used thureoi (plural of thureos) as shields. They would be the thorakitai and thureophoroi of EB.

[MeinPanzer]

First and foremost, literary sources, good as they may be for getting a picture of the people at that time can't be considered 100% accurate, as writers of that time would call things with one name, whereas they would be called something different by another. This must not be the case with Polybios, as he was Hipparchos of the Achaike Sympoliteia (Achaian League) from 170-169 BCE.

And, it should be noted, both the Achaean military, with which Polybius was intimately familiar, and its neighbours (as in, e.g., the Aitolians) employed both thureophoroi and thorakitai, so there is good reason to think that his testimony is accurate.


This is further complicated when one takes into account that when a "barbarian" faction would assault, it would sometimes incorporate in its host heavy infantry, lighter infantry, gaesetae (naked men with just a thureos), spearmen and swordsmen, all of them combined. How do you call them? I guess one would have to pick by either percentage of each composing element, or their role in the battlefield. This would have been a challenge to the historian back then, that is for sure.

This is irrelevant because only Greek troops are referred to as thorakitai in the literary sources. We are dealing with a clear description of a battle group composed of homogeneous units, and not a mixed rabble.


Then, something unimaginably simple comes along... Archaeological finds.
When you have thureos (meaning literally door in ancient greek) carrying troops who are clad in muscle cuirass like the following...it is difficult to classify them (found in present day Anatolia IIRC) as NOT heavy. The fact that they carry the thureos and are armored (thorax in greek) would deffinitely mean that they are thorakitai.

And yet we, for instance, have a representation of a javelineer, clearly a light soldier, who wears a metal muscled cuirass on an Alexandrian funerary stele. His only armament is a handful of javelins and a cuirass, so would he be a heavy soldier?


didn't you mention, IIRC, in a thread a long time ago that all/almost all thureophoroi were without body armor?


I did, but I must explain why I think this whole debate is fundamentally flawed. Thorakitai and thureophoroi are just terms from the literary sources. We clearly have archaeological evidence that shows units carrying thureoi, and so we somehow have to attempt to match these up with the archaeological record. We do not have any sources, such as funerary stelae, which directly link up any representation of a soldier with either of these titles, as far as I am aware.

In the aforementioned passage in Polybius (10.29), he mentions a unit composed of thorakitai and thureophoroi. Now, we must deduce from this that though these soldiers were similarly armed, there was a distinction between them that warranted giving them different names. Since, presumably, being armed with a thorax and a hoplite's shield would make you a hoplite, and being armed with a thorax and a pelte would make you a peltast (as in Iphicrates' peltasts, or the definition of the peltast described by Asclepiodotus), it follows that the reason these men are called thorakitai is because they were armed with a thorax and a thureos, a new combination of arms that required a distinct name. Therefore, we can deduce from the literary evidence that what distinguished the thureophoros from the thorakites was a cuirass. Some authors may have used thureophoros as a blanket term to describe unarmoured and armoured men carrying thureoi, but if you are employing both terms, as the EB does, it only makes sense to keep them as mutually exclusive, or else the entire sense of the word thorakites is lost.

[Ibrahim]

I did, but I must explain why I think this whole debate is fundamentally flawed. Thorakitai and thureophoroi are just terms from the literary sources. We clearly have archaeological evidence that shows units carrying thureoi, and so we somehow have to attempt to match these up with the archaeological record. We do not have any sources, such as funerary stelae, which directly link up any representation of a soldier with either of these titles, as far as I am aware.

In the aforementioned passage in Polybius (10.29), he mentions a unit composed of thorakitai and thureophoroi. Now, we must deduce from this that though these soldiers were similarly armed, there was a distinction between them that warranted giving them different names. Since, presumably, being armed with a thorax and a hoplite's shield would make you a hoplite, and being armed with a thorax and a pelte would make you a peltast (as in Iphicrates' peltasts, or the definition of the peltast described by Asclepiodotus), it follows that the reason these men are called thorakitai is because they were armed with a thorax and a thureos, a new combination of arms that required a distinct name. Therefore, we can deduce from the literary evidence that what distinguished the thureophoros from the thorakites was a cuirass. Some authors may have used thureophoros as a blanket term to describe unarmoured and armoured men carrying thureoi, but if you are employing both terms, as the EB does, it only makes sense to keep them as mutually exclusive, or else the entire sense of the word thorakites is lost.


I see now. thanks.

[paullus]

the plan is actually to have a mix of armored and unarmored men among the thureophoroi, but that adjustment to the unit has not been completed as yet, partly because we never decided on the proper ratio.

as for connections to actual units, a papyrus from 197 BC attests a Kretan hyperetes (junior officer) of the second epilektoi thorakitai. its one of our best, if not only, attestations of units of specifically "thorakitai" in Hellenistic armies.

[Phalanx300]

I'm wondering, does the February Preview means that there will also be a March preview? :2thumbsup:

And I can't wait to see the Spartans for EB2 :dizzy2:.

[desert]

They will play flutes whenever you click on them. :yes:

[MeinPanzer]

the plan is actually to have a mix of armored and unarmored men among the thureophoroi, but that adjustment to the unit has not been completed as yet, partly because we never decided on the proper ratio.

as for connections to actual units, a papyrus from 197 BC attests a Kretan hyperetes (junior officer) of the second epilektoi thorakitai. its one of our best, if not only, attestations of units of specifically "thorakitai" in Hellenistic armies.

That's a papyrus where the Cretan is mentioned as the kurios of a woman, right? I read it a long time ago but I've forgotten the citation for it. Anyway, the unfortunate thing is that we don't have any depictions of soldiers connected with the word thorakit, which would allow us to determine what they were equipped with beyond their thorakes.

Anyway, could you maybe explain briefly why you are going with some armoured thureophoroi? That's one thing I've always been a bit puzzled about in relation to the EB thureophoroi given the nature of the (rather limited) evidence.

[chairman]

While I do not profess to have anywhere near the knowledge or experience of Keravnos, Paullus or Meinpanzer, I feel that there is a certain amount of common sense that can be applied to this issue. What is defined as Thureophoroi or Thorakitai, instead of two discrete categories, is actually sets of many points on a continuam of armor or lack thereof, with Thureophoroi being towards the lighter and Thorakitai being towards the heavier, but with a mix.

So here is a possible analysis of the continuam.

Peltastai: javelins, pelte, sword, with or without: simple helmet, greaves, linen or leather thorax.

Thureophoroi: javelins or spear, thureos, sword, with or without: simple helmet, greaves, linen or leather thorax.

Thorakitai: javelins or spear, thureos, sword, helmet, greaves, & one the following: linen, leather or metal plate thorax or mail or muscle cuirass.

So there is an overlap between Thureophoroi and Thorakitai, which is only natural.

This is just my concept based on what I read in this and other threads and my understanding of Hellenistic warfare. If any of this doesn't fit, please correct me so that I can better understand.

Chairman

[geala]

The problem is that many pictures of soldiers with a thureos show them without armour, but with helmet and spear (and sometimes javelins). I would see them as heavy infantry because they were able to fight the enemy toe to toe in the same manner I would count a naked Celt with sword and scutum as heavy infantry. You don't necessarily need armour for it.

I would prefer these thoureophoroi would have no armour in EB, too. With armour I would name them thorakitai. And I would give the peltastai a round pelte with less defence and slightly less melee stats or even get rid of them. I always have the problem to distinguish the peltastai from the thoureophoroi and decide what unit I shall use. In the end I nearly never ever use thoureophoroi because peltastai have more or less the same performance in melee and can shower the enemy with javelins.

[MeinPanzer]

While I do not profess to have anywhere near the knowledge or experience of Keravnos, Paullus or Meinpanzer, I feel that there is a certain amount of common sense that can be applied to this issue. What is defined as Thureophoroi or Thorakitai, instead of two discrete categories, is actually sets of many points on a continuam of armor or lack thereof, with Thureophoroi being towards the lighter and Thorakitai being towards the heavier, but with a mix.

So here is a possible analysis of the continuam.

Peltastai: javelins, pelte, sword, with or without: simple helmet, greaves, linen or leather thorax.

Thureophoroi: javelins or spear, thureos, sword, with or without: simple helmet, greaves, linen or leather thorax.

Thorakitai: javelins or spear, thureos, sword, helmet, greaves, & one the following: linen, leather or metal plate thorax or mail or muscle cuirass.

So there is an overlap between Thureophoroi and Thorakitai, which is only natural.

This is just my concept based on what I read in this and other threads and my understanding of Hellenistic warfare. If any of this doesn't fit, please correct me so that I can better understand.

Chairman

This argument doesn't work for the very reason I posted earlier - why would a thureophoros wearing armour be anything but a thorakites? As far as we can tell, what made a thorakites a thorakites and not a thurephoros was that he wore a thorax. The evidence we have makes it apparent that this is a binary opposition - if you carry a thureos and don't wear a thorax, you are a thureophoros; if you carry and thureos and do wear a thorax, you are a thorakites.

But from our evidence it's apparent that the normal equipment of a thureophoros was javelins or spear, thureos, sword, and helmet. The standard equipment of a thorakites was javelins or spear, thureos, sword, helmet, and a metal muscled or an organic cuirass. I can only think of one, very exceptional example of a representation of a soldier equipped with thureos as well as greaves.

[Phalanx300]

They will play flutes whenever you click on them. :yes:

That would be nice:idea2:, though you aren't on the EB team right so your just joking around :shame:.

[paullus]

Hmm, several points on which to catch up.

1. Alexandrian stele of the thorakites - the soldier, an Epeirote, is shown in a classic dueling style known (perhaps) best from a number of south italian tombs that show duelers in armor with cloaks and javelins, and only rarely with shields. The stele fits far better with the duel theme than with a warfare theme, and I don't think we'd assume that the duelers from the Paestum tombs lacked shields if they wanted them.

2. Light thureophoroi - we're actually showing a sort of continuum, but its still up for some changes. For example, we've already implemented and previewed the euzonoi, an unarmored unit (save for a few helmets) equipped with thureoi and javelins. But we also know that there are a couple of depictions of thureophoroi in tube-and-yoke corselets, several in possible flexible leather garments, others in chain mail, and others in full muscled cuirasses. Now, we've been considering several ways of working through these things. From a Ptolemaic perspective, I see quite a few different outlays of gear, based on the full range of sources at my disposal. The Sidon stelai seem consistent with mercenary troops outfitted for mobile roles, carrying equipment bestowed by the king and packed off for campaign. We should differentiate these from the standing army troops recruited in Egypt itself (also--confusingly--called misthophoroi some of the time) who were from landed or (for lack of a better term at the moment) "small business" backgrounds, who, by nature of the period of their service and proximity to markets, had greater opportunity to diversify their equipment by purchasing, from their own funds or from their stipend, a different helmet or piece of armor. There are also equipment differences--we see 3 types of weapons pretty frequently, but as I'm sure you know, there are only 2 weapons allowed in-game. I have to leave in a minute actually, but it boils down to this: the gap between full thorakitai and euzonoi was too large, and we didn't feel comfortable lumping every type of armor ever shown worn by a soldier carrying a thureos into a single unit, so the thureophoroi are meant to bridge that gap. As I've said, they'll not, at release, wear as much armor. 30-60% (debated) will wear some form of lighter armor, and all will have helmets.

3. Greaves - That's actually due for change. You'll notice that the bodies of the thureophoroi are the same as those of the hoplitai. The thureophoroi will wear a variety of boots, so bear with us. I think there are actually also a few helmet changes for the thureophoroi that haven't been put into place, even though the model changes have already been prepared. It takes some work, and we've been doing a lot of work on a lot of other cultures. These things will get sorted out when we get back around to the Hellenes.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Yup. We kind of have a round robin schedule: each 'culture' receives 'focus' in turn, and the focus has passed from the Hellenes to "I-will-not-tell-you-now-wait-for-previews-instead".

[MeinPanzer]

Hmm, several points on which to catch up.

1. Alexandrian stele of the thorakites - the soldier, an Epeirote, is shown in a classic dueling style known (perhaps) best from a number of south italian tombs that show duelers in armor with cloaks and javelins, and only rarely with shields. The stele fits far better with the duel theme than with a warfare theme, and I don't think we'd assume that the duelers from the Paestum tombs lacked shields if they wanted them.

I would have to say that I disagree. Were he facing an opponent in a duel, I would agree, but he is simply posed in a combative stance, and I can't think of a single other painted stele depicting a soldier in arms where the man is shown with only partial equipment, whether from Alexandria, Sidon, Cyprus, or Demetrias. There is also the Hellenistic gem Sekunda shows in his Seleucid Montvert title which shows a man identically equipped, with only muscled cuirass and javelin or spear.


2. Light thureophoroi - we're actually showing a sort of continuum, but its still up for some changes. For example, we've already implemented and previewed the euzonoi, an unarmored unit (save for a few helmets) equipped with thureoi and javelins. But we also know that there are a couple of depictions of thureophoroi in tube-and-yoke corselets, several in possible flexible leather garments, others in chain mail, and others in full muscled cuirasses.

What do you mean when you refer to "possible flexible leather garments"?


Now, we've been considering several ways of working through these things. From a Ptolemaic perspective, I see quite a few different outlays of gear, based on the full range of sources at my disposal. The Sidon stelai seem consistent with mercenary troops outfitted for mobile roles, carrying equipment bestowed by the king and packed off for campaign.

Are these not presumed to be the stelae of members of the garrison? They all seem to be light-to-medium infantrymen, mostly thureophoroi and peltasts - exactly the kind of mercenaries that were a dime a dozen and could be used to man garrisons. How is their armament indicative of being packed off for campaign?


We should differentiate these from the standing army troops recruited in Egypt itself (also--confusingly--called misthophoroi some of the time) who were from landed or (for lack of a better term at the moment) "small business" backgrounds, who, by nature of the period of their service and proximity to markets, had greater opportunity to diversify their equipment by purchasing, from their own funds or from their stipend, a different helmet or piece of armor.

But the mercenaries of Sidon, garrisoned near one of the most prominent port cities in the eastern Mediterranean and surely paid a stipend, would have been able to diversify their arms as well, and perhaps even had more disposable income to spend on arms than a clerouch who was tied financially to his life at home in Egypt.


There are also equipment differences--we see 3 types of weapons pretty frequently, but as I'm sure you know, there are only 2 weapons allowed in-game. I have to leave in a minute actually, but it boils down to this: the gap between full thorakitai and euzonoi was too large, and we didn't feel comfortable lumping every type of armor ever shown worn by a soldier carrying a thureos into a single unit, so the thureophoroi are meant to bridge that gap. As I've said, they'll not, at release, wear as much armor. 30-60% (debated) will wear some form of lighter armor, and all will have helmets.

If we look at depictions of soldiers, we can basically establish two classes: those with cuirasses (whether tube-and-yokes, muscled, or mail) and those without. For the rest, these two groups are very similarly equipped, bearing helmets, swords and spears/javelins. We know from Polybius that there were two classes of similarly-classed infantrymen, thureophoroi and thorakitai. The difference in name seems to suggest that the latter wore cuirasses while the former did not. What is the difficulty, then, in making those with helmet, sword, javelins, and thureos a unit called thureophoroi, while those with helmet, sword, javelins, thureos, and cuirass a unit called thorakitai? Variety could be provided for both with different kinds of helmets and cuirasses. As Polybius (and most likely other ancient historians) recognized, the greatest difference was between men with no armour and men with armour. Ordinarily I would agree with you on this point, but in this case the dichotomy in both the archaeological and literary sources seems extremely clear cut.


3. Greaves - That's actually due for change. You'll notice that the bodies of the thureophoroi are the same as those of the hoplitai. The thureophoroi will wear a variety of boots, so bear with us. I think there are actually also a few helmet changes for the thureophoroi that haven't been put into place, even though the model changes have already been prepared. It takes some work, and we've been doing a lot of work on a lot of other cultures. These things will get sorted out when we get back around to the Hellenes.

Good to hear, and I look forward to seeing the results!

[paullus]

I'll be sticking to my guns on the Epeirote stele. I don't think you have to judge the stelai just by the eastern mediterranean environment, its also worth bearing in mind the subject, in this case a native of far western Greece, and an immigrant to Egypt from a nation that had for several generations been heavily involved in southern italy, were depictions of dueling men using their cloaks as a shield were common. As for the single character vs the two, the distinction I would make is between the duels depicted on Italic funerary monuments to memorialize funeral games, and a depiction of a man who may have been a successful martial athlete of some sort. How many good examples of warriors using their cloaks as shields are known from the Hellenistic period that aren't part of highly idealized mythical scenes?

As for the garrison-members of Sidon, I agree, they were your run of the mill dime a dozen mercenaries, but I would add equipped at state expense for a hasty campaign. And considering they died and were buried in Sidon during the short Ptolemaic tenure, I don't think your hypothetical reasoning that they would have the time to customize their arms as well would apply.

Gotta run again, I'll have to get back to it later.

[geala]

...I have to leave in a minute actually, but it boils down to this: the gap between full thorakitai and euzonoi was too large, and we didn't feel comfortable lumping every type of armor ever shown worn by a soldier carrying a thureos into a single unit, so the thureophoroi are meant to bridge that gap. As I've said, they'll not, at release, wear as much armor. 30-60% (debated) will wear some form of lighter armor, and all will have helmets.

...

That sounds reasonable enough for me. It's still a game and we don't know enough to be too dogmatic about the question wether not single soldiers in a mostly unarmoured unit wore light forms of armour.

Will the thoureophoroi have the "prec" stat or will they be true javelineers? If not the latter, why should I take thoureophoroi instead of thorakitai? They will surely be cheaper and faster moving I presume.

[MeinPanzer]

I'll be sticking to my guns on the Epeirote stele. I don't think you have to judge the stelai just by the eastern mediterranean environment, its also worth bearing in mind the subject, in this case a native of far western Greece, and an immigrant to Egypt from a nation that had for several generations been heavily involved in southern italy, were depictions of dueling men using their cloaks as a shield were common. As for the single character vs the two, the distinction I would make is between the duels depicted on Italic funerary monuments to memorialize funeral games, and a depiction of a man who may have been a successful martial athlete of some sort. How many good examples of warriors using their cloaks as shields are known from the Hellenistic period that aren't part of highly idealized mythical scenes?

I can't think of any depictions of Hellenistic soldiers employing their cloaks, but it could reasonably be said that if he were not equipped with a shield, he might have used his cloak in that way. This kind of argument is obviously circular, though. I like your idea but I think a close examination of such Italian depictions and this stele would be in order.


As for the garrison-members of Sidon, I agree, they were your run of the mill dime a dozen mercenaries, but I would add equipped at state expense for a hasty campaign. And considering they died and were buried in Sidon during the short Ptolemaic tenure, I don't think your hypothetical reasoning that they would have the time to customize their arms as well would apply.

If they were even hired by the Ptolemies at all - for all we know, these men could have been the mercenaries who were garrisoned at Sidon under the Seleucids who went over wholesale to the Ptolemies after conquest.

[Africanvs]

Simply amazing work.

[BeeSting]

Absolutely beautiful... Long live EB!

[Decimus]

Awesome cant wait

[Irishmafia2020]

I just saw this preview... and I am blown away. Wow! It looks as if you are really taking advantage of the MTW2 engine's possibilities. Very impressive work!

[Megas Methuselah]

I already commented somewhere in here earlier, but I have to say it again: wow. The battlefield is going to look amazing! I love the variety! Any sense of false uniformity is now gone! Only EB would convince me to buy Kingdoms, and when EB is ready, I will.

Keep up the good work, guys. :2thumbsup:

[paullus]

someone did a calculation on the number of variations possible among the hoplitai. across all the different skins, with all the different configurations of greaves, helmets, shields, armor, and faces, there were something like 12000+ total possible combinations.

[Meneldil]

This is where we need a "ZOMG" smiley.:sweatdrop:

[Megas Methuselah]

This is where we need a "ZOMG" smiley.:sweatdrop:

:jumping:

[Zradha Pahlavan]

First, awesome preview.
Second:
"Antigonos Monopthalmos owed his surname to one of these devices."
One word: ouch.

[anubis88]

First, awesome preview.
Second:
"Antigonos Monopthalmos owed his surname to one of these devices."
One word: ouch.

You know i'm gonna shoot you for reviving this thread? :laugh4:

I forgot it was still january, and thought that the EB team just gave a new preview!!!

One better come out soon to extinguish my rage!!:wall::2thumbsup:

[Cybvep]

Actually, a second February preview is a very nice idea ;)

[Zradha Pahlavan]

Especially since they haven't shown any off in a while.


You know i'm gonna shoot you for reviving this thread?

You don't have an Oxybeles do you? Monopthalmos isn't a very catchy surname for a Parthian.

[Lusitani]

I thought this was a new preview...grrrrrrrrrrrr :smash:

V.:juggle2:

[Gustave]

Especially since they haven't shown any off in a while.
We will show a LOT of stuff in the next previews... I can't say more, of course :beam:.

[Lusitani]

We will show a LOT of stuff in the next previews... I can't say more, of course :beam:.

Hmmm i like the word "LOT" a lot...almost as much as i like the word BETA :D...

V.

[anubis88]

We will show a LOT of stuff in the next previews... I can't say more, of course :beam:.

I have a better idea... How about 3 smaller previews instead of one with lots of stuff...?:clown:
Just to feed my apetite

[Moros]

Hmmm i like the word "LOT" a lot...almost as much as i like the word BETA :D...

V.
But surely not as much as "closed beta"?

[Horatius Flaccus]

I like the words 'Gaza' and 'Campaign', preferably next to eachother...:clown:

[Skullheadhq]

I read SHOW, not GIVE, might be my eyes...

[HunGeneral]

Dammm....:furious3:

I thought this was a new preview....:wall:.... Oh well hope does die last doesn't it?:beam:


We will show a LOT of stuff in the next previews... I can't say more, of course :beam:.

Now that was enough to get my apppetite going... Can't wait:yes:

[Owen Glyndwr]

Oh boy! Goody goody! More previews on the way! Can I get a woot woot?

[SwissBarbar]

Woooooot Woooooooot :2thumbsup:

[Skullheadhq]

wootwoot as well....

[Apázlinemjó]

W0000000T IT'S THE 2010'S FEBRUARY PREVIEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wait...wait...it's January right now... damn IT'S A TRAP!

[Skullheadhq]

IT'S A TRAP!
Not that again... *sigh*

[Ludens]

Enough of the spam. Stay on topic, please.

[Cadwalader]

Does anyone still have the file of voicemod commands? The link is long since dead, and I love mangling Koine Greek in my livingroom when nobody's listening.