Cs, Ks, Ss, and Us, Vs

[spqr_arcani]

Hi, I'd like to learn from a historical perspective on the names of places and people in EB.

I noticed that a lot of names that used Cs in RTW Vanilla and other mods, appear as Ks in EB.

For example: Seleucid Empire.
In other mods they're pronounced Seh-leu-cid, or Seh-leu-shid. In EB it's Seleukid.

Another example: Macedonia.
In EB it's Makedonia. Should everything I'm used to seeing spelled with a C be pronounced like a K?

Another example:
Velites. In EB it seems to be pronounced as Welites with a U.


Should everything that I'm used to seeing V with be actually pronounced as a U?
If a C appears before and I or E, should I prounounce it SEH/SEE or KEH/KEE?
What should the correct pronunciations be, for such letters?


Is there a criteria for distinguishing between Roman and Greek pronunciations (as in were multiple pronunciations correct at the time)?

I'm just asking for my own educational purposes.
If there's a faq can you kindly point out to me.

[athanaric]

Vanilla RTW used romanized versions of Greek names like Makedonia. The "c"s in these names can lead English-speaking people to the misconception that they were pronounced with some kind of "s" (like "Masedonia" - ugh :hmg:).

[soup_alex]

In EB, most (not all) proper nouns appear in the ancient Greek spelling. This is, for example, why "Qart-Hadast" (New City) is written "Kart-Hadast" (Greek not having a letter "c", and I think abolishing their letter "q").

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Hi, I'd like to learn from a historical perspective on the names of places and people in EB.

I noticed that a lot of names that used Cs in RTW Vanilla and other mods, appear as Ks in EB.
Well, the difference you see between RTW and EB is the difference between Latin and Greek. RTW was romanocentric to a ridiculous level, whereas EB tries to show everything in its native language - which means Greek for a greater part of the world.

Bear in mind that the Romans had adopted their alphabet from the Greeks, and the Greeks from the Phoenicians IIRC. The Latin character C is derived from the Greek Γ. C is always pronounced K, and G in Caius and Cnaeus, due to the fact the G was invented to distinguish its sound from the similar C (K)-sound.

If you see a V or U or an F, you can be sure it's Latin. If you see a K, an X (Ξ) or a Y, it's Greek. If you see a W, it's Germanic or Celtic (the latter if you can't pronounce it, no matter how hard you try). :laugh4: :wink:

Arche Seleukeia is pronounced Ahr-cheh Zeh-leh-oo-kee-ah unless I'm not mistaken. The "ch" is a like German "Ich", or if you don't know, a bit like in Spanish "equipaje".

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm by no means an expert on the subject.

[spqr_arcani]

Vanilla RTW used romanized versions of Greek names like Makedonia. The "c"s in these names can lead English-speaking people to the misconception that they were pronounced with some kind of "s" (like "Masedonia" - ugh :hmg:).

So, is modern day Macedonia actually pronounced Makedonia? This is news to me.

[Mulceber]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm by no means an expert on the subject.

I think you're SLIGHTLY wrong in your pronunciation of the AS - I believe it's Ahr-cheh Seh-leh-oo-kee-ah.

Also, I could be wrong, but I don't think that C comes directly from gamma - there is definitely a relationship between them (which explains why Caesar's praenomen is sometimes spelled with a G and sometimes with a C), but I don't think it's a 1-1, this-came-from-this type of relationship.


So, is modern day Macedonia actually pronounced Makedonia? This is news to me.

Being part of eastern Europe, I very much doubt that Macedonia even uses the Latin alphabet, so yes, almost certainly they use a k-sound when pronouncing the name of their country. Most other European countries likely do too, since English is relatively unique in having a soft C; also, I should point out that even Latin doesn't have a soft C - names like Caesar and Cicero should really be pronounced Kai-sar and Kikero. -M

[athanaric]

So, is modern day Macedonia actually pronounced Makedonia?

Yes. As far as I understand, the Western European pronounciation with "c" (or in German, "z") is a kind of misnomer. Both the Greek and not-so-Greek Makedonians use the "K" even today.

[spqr_arcani]

And how did the Romans pronounce Julius Caesar? Iulius Keh-sar? Julius Seh-sar? I've always wondered cause other European names for caesar could sound like Keh-sar (as in German Kaiser), or Tsar (Russian ts sound).

And another thing that always made me scratch my head is when the U being written as a V in public buildings even in the United States. It could be either Roman or English, but IIRC, V seemed to be in place of U. I assume they were pronounced as U back then. When did they start replacing V with U? And how did they spell our modern day V back in those days? W?

[spqr_arcani]

I
Being part of eastern Europe, I very much doubt that Macedonia even uses the Latin alphabet, so yes, almost certainly they use a k-sound when pronouncing the name of their country. Most other European countries likely do too, since English is relatively unique in having a soft C; also, I should point out that even Latin doesn't have a soft C - names like Caesar and Cicero should really be pronounced Kai-sar and Kikero. -M

That's interesting because I used to assume Macedonia is Ma-seh-do-nia since even in the Cyrillic alphabet, a "C" is the Latin "S". Well, I just checked Wikipedia (no offense to history buffs here), and it seems they call themselves Makedonia. So, mental note on Makedonia and Seleukid.

[Mulceber]

And how did the Romans pronounce Julius Caesar? Iulius Keh-sar? Julius Seh-sar? I've always wondered cause other European names for caesar could sound like Keh-sar (as in German Kaiser), or Tsar (Russian ts sound).

You-lee-us Kai-ssar.


And another thing that always made me scratch my head is when the U being written as a V in public buildings even in the United States.

That's because in latin, U and V were the same letter - it functioned kind of the same way as Y does in our language: it could be either a consonant or a vowel. If it was a vowel, it was pronounced pretty much the way we pronounce U, if it was a consonant, it was pronounced the way we pronounce W. Sometime during the middle ages (I think), U was divided into two letters - U and V (likewise, I was divided into two letters: I and J) because they saw a need to differentiate between them, partly because of the change in pronunciation. -M

[soup_alex]

You-lee-us Kai-ssar.
When, approximately, did the Latin ae change in pronunciation from the "aye"-sound (in e.g. caetrati, kai-trah-tee) to "ee" (in e.g. encyclopaedia; um, paedophile)?

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

When, approximately, did the Latin ae change in pronunciation from the "aye"-sound (in e.g. caetrati, kai-trah-tee) to "ee" (in e.g. encyclopaedia; um, paedophile)?
Do you assume English pronounciation of Latin would represent any Latin pronounciation of Latin?

If you don't, then your answer is "since the Engish started to think encyclopaedia was an English word."

[Mulceber]

If you don't, then your answer is "since the Engish started to think encyclopaedia was an English word."

Let's face it, it isn't even a latin word either. What with the the Y and the Paed part, it screams Greek. More likely it's a latinized Greek word. -M

[Tellos Athenaios]

A -chi- definitely isn't the German -ch-; instead a -kh- is more appropiate (the chi is an aspirated version of the kappa). Remember it's "Christ" for a reason :wink:

Similarly, -ei- doesn't render as -ee- either. Check this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pronunciation_of_Ancient_Greek_in_teaching it isn't very useful for determining what is 'correct', but it gives you some idea of the assumptions you've been thaught as school.

[soup_alex]

Do you assume English pronounciation of Latin would represent any Latin pronounciation of Latin?
Truthfully, it never occured to my why it wouldn't.


If you don't, then your answer is "since the Engish started to think encyclopaedia was an English word."

Let's face it, it isn't even a latin word either. What with the the Y and the Paed part, it screams Greek. More likely it's a latinized Greek word. -M
Thanks. Though I'm hardly an expert in Greek or Latin (does it show?), I should probably have been more suspicious of this (e.g. "-philia", for example, although it's not uncommon for "modern English" words to be composites of Latin and Greek words, either).

[Maion Maroneios]

Hi, I'd like to learn from a historical perspective on the names of places and people in EB.

I noticed that a lot of names that used Cs in RTW Vanilla and other mods, appear as Ks in EB.

For example: Seleucid Empire.
In other mods they're pronounced Seh-leu-cid, or Seh-leu-shid. In EB it's Seleukid.

Another example: Macedonia.
In EB it's Makedonia. Should everything I'm used to seeing spelled with a C be pronounced like a K?

Another example:
Velites. In EB it seems to be pronounced as Welites with a U.


Should everything that I'm used to seeing V with be actually pronounced as a U?
If a C appears before and I or E, should I prounounce it SEH/SEE or KEH/KEE?
What should the correct pronunciations be, for such letters?


Is there a criteria for distinguishing between Roman and Greek pronunciations (as in were multiple pronunciations correct at the time)?

I'm just asking for my own educational purposes.
If there's a faq can you kindly point out to me.
As other members have already correctly stated, the difference is because of EB used the Hellenistike Koine (the dominant language of that time, like modern English) in stead of Latin. A bit off-record, but even after the Roman expansion, many states and nations that were thoroughly Hellenized (like Egypt), still kept using the Koine as their language in writing texts etc., even though Latin was the formal one.

As such, many Latin words have changed to the Hellenic ones in EB. Very few examples are the following: Tarentum (vanilla) --> Taras (EB), Ambracia (vanilla) --> Ambrakia (EB), Corinth(us) (vanilla) --> Korinthos. Basically the changes are as follows: Every C becomes a K (kappa) and the -us and -um endings become -os and -on respectively.

Regarding pronunciation of both languages, let me tell you that we are not 100% sure for any of them. Especially Ancient Greek. There are theories based on ancient manuscripts, but no one can say how each letter or words was/were pronounced for sure.


Well, the difference you see between RTW and EB is the difference between Latin and Greek. RTW was romanocentric to a ridiculous level, whereas EB tries to show everything in its native language - which means Greek for a greater part of the world.

Bear in mind that the Romans had adopted their alphabet from the Greeks, and the Greeks from the Phoenicians IIRC. The Latin character C is derived from the Greek Γ. C is always pronounced K, and G in Caius and Cnaeus, due to the fact the G was invented to distinguish its sound from the similar C (K)-sound.

If you see a V or U or an F, you can be sure it's Latin. If you see a K, an X (Ξ) or a Y, it's Greek. If you see a W, it's Germanic or Celtic (the latter if you can't pronounce it, no matter how hard you try). :laugh4: :wink:

Arche Seleukeia is pronounced Ahr-cheh Zeh-leh-oo-kee-ah unless I'm not mistaken. The "ch" is a like German "Ich", or if you don't know, a bit like in Spanish "equipaje".

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm by no means an expert on the subject.
Everything is correct, Centurio, expept the Arche Seleukeia part. According to the accepted theories of the pronunciation of Ancient Greek, that would be: Ar-k[h]-e (long e like in lemon) Se-le-oo-kee-a.


So, is modern day Macedonia actually pronounced Makedonia? This is news to me.
The Greek part of Macedonia is pronounced as Makedon'ia, with a K.


I think you're SLIGHTLY wrong in your pronunciation of the AS - I believe it's Ahr-cheh Seh-leh-oo-kee-ah.

Also, I could be wrong, but I don't think that C comes directly from gamma - there is definitely a relationship between them (which explains why Caesar's praenomen is sometimes spelled with a G and sometimes with a C), but I don't think it's a 1-1, this-came-from-this type of relationship.



Being part of eastern Europe, I very much doubt that Macedonia even uses the Latin alphabet, so yes, almost certainly they use a k-sound when pronouncing the name of their country. Most other European countries likely do too, since English is relatively unique in having a soft C; also, I should point out that even Latin doesn't have a soft C - names like Caesar and Cicero should really be pronounced Kai-sar and Kikero. -M
Modern day Macedonia speaks Greek like the rest of the Greece. If you mean FYROM, I don't really know. Where does Slavic derive from? --> That's your answer.


You-lee-us Kai-ssar.



That's because in latin, U and V were the same letter - it functioned kind of the same way as Y does in our language: it could be either a consonant or a vowel. If it was a vowel, it was pronounced pretty much the way we pronounce U, if it was a consonant, it was pronounced the way we pronounce W. Sometime during the middle ages (I think), U was divided into two letters - U and V (likewise, I was divided into two letters: I and J) because they saw a need to differentiate between them, partly because of the change in pronunciation. -M
Well, we don't really know how Latin was pronounced for sure you know.

Maion