View Full Version : The Face of Anti-Semetism
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-20-2009, 04:42
Closer to home than some people would care to think?
An Analysis (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/02/17/laura-rosen-cohen-fear-and-political-intolerance-at-york-university.aspx)
Eyewitness Account (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/02/12/an-eyewitness-account-of-this-week-s-aggressive-intimidation-of-jewish-students-at-york-university.aspx)
The National Post had the best accounts of this behaviour - I believe it was also reported in the Globe, though not in as prominent a position. It received - perhaps surprisingly or perhaps not - relatively little coverage from most areas of the media. The rapid and professional conduct of the police, as well as the fact that all Jewish students appeared to be unharmed, are perhaps the only two bright spots in this story.
Let's celebrate cultural diversity
Rhyfelwyr
02-20-2009, 14:12
Yep the whole world is turning against Israel - at my Uni the protestors called for a boycott on all Israeli products sold on campus.
LittleGrizzly
02-20-2009, 14:25
at my Uni the protestors called for a boycott on all Israeli products sold on campus.
Thats not anti-semitism*, simply not wanting to fund an aggressive foriegn power... perfectly reasonable!
*No doubt anti-semites would join in such a venture, but bad people (or good people with bad reasoning) do not invalidate a cause...
Hooahguy
02-20-2009, 14:36
oy gevalt!
Yep the whole world is turning against Israel - at my Uni the protestors called for a boycott on all Israeli products sold on campus.
being anti-Israel is not anti-Semetic
Rhyfelwyr
02-20-2009, 22:34
being anti-Israel is not anti-Semetic
It's discrimination based on nationality, not exactly the same as ethnicity but not a whole lot different either.
Furunculus
02-20-2009, 22:41
agreed, and stupid to boot. particularly the academic boycotts of israeli institutions.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-21-2009, 00:15
It's discrimination based on nationality, not exactly the same as ethnicity but not a whole lot different either.
Very true. Calls for the boycott of Israeli professors are nothing more than xenophobia (it does not take into account the individual views of the professor, simply his nationality, and it also does not call for a similar boycott of Palestinian professors).
Banquo's Ghost
02-21-2009, 13:32
Very true. Calls for the boycott of Israeli professors are nothing more than xenophobia (it does not take into account the individual views of the professor, simply his nationality, and it also does not call for a similar boycott of Palestinian professors).
Nonsense.
Whilst I do not agree with the boycotts, it's no different from asking for boycotts of Chinese products/ministers/institutions to protest Tiananmen Square, links with Burmese universities/institutions etc to protest against the military junta, or South African links to protest apartheid or (for balance) Zimbabwean ministerial visits to protest Mugabe, Iranian sanctions, or bans on Hamas. It depends on the side one takes as to the validity of the tactic, but it's a legitimate campaigning tool. Indeed, we have just had a thread where it seems to be acceptable to murder scientists because of their nationality, with no regard to finding out whether the target actually agrees with what they are doing or to what extent or aim.
The only thing these have in common is political protest. Some are effective, some are not. Protesting the actions of the state of Israel is not anti-semitic. What clouds the issue is that there is often (as with African countries for example) a threnody of racism as well. This can operate on both sides, with the belief that Israel should be exempt from the same standards that apply to other countries being similar to the dhimmis so often rightly excoriated here, as opposed to those who cling - sometimes unconsciously - to the ancient prejudice that Jewish people somehow deserve all the suffering they get.
As if the state of Israel is made up of one homogenous racial group anyway. :stupido2:
Nonsense.
No it's not, you can buy what you want to buy, denying an Israeli professor to lecture is denying other people to buy what they want to buy.
Banquo's Ghost
02-21-2009, 14:01
No it's not, you can buy what you want to buy, denying an Israeli professor to lecture is denying other people to buy what they want to buy.
Maybe it would help to read my post again. I don't disagree with you, but the political tactic of denying visits on the basis of nationality/assumed affiliation is widespread, beyond Israelis. It is not anti-Semitic.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-21-2009, 19:24
Maybe it would help to read my post again. I don't disagree with you, but the political tactic of denying visits on the basis of nationality/assumed affiliation is widespread, beyond Israelis. It is not anti-Semitic.
I believe you did not take my post the way it was intended. Though the tactic is spread beyond Israelis, and is not in and of itself anti-Semetic, the way it is applied is xenophobic. For example, an Israeli professor who would come to speak about how terribly oppressed the Palestinians are would be banned along with one who would come to say that they were not at all oppressed. The only characteristic those two professors share is that they are Israeli. This is discrimination based on which country someone is from - it is therefore xenophobic.
Banquo's Ghost
02-21-2009, 23:43
I believe you did not take my post the way it was intended. Though the tactic is spread beyond Israelis, and is not in and of itself anti-Semetic, the way it is applied is xenophobic. For example, an Israeli professor who would come to speak about how terribly oppressed the Palestinians are would be banned along with one who would come to say that they were not at all oppressed. The only characteristic those two professors share is that they are Israeli. This is discrimination based on which country someone is from - it is therefore xenophobic.
No it isn't.
xenophobia |ˌzēnəˈfōbēə; ˌzenə-|
noun
intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries
Sanctions against Israeli academics are political weapons. Those taking the stance may have xenophobic reasons too, but the main thrust is to protest Israeli policy, not to dislike Israelis. In most cases, these sanctions would disappear if Israel changed policy to one that suited the political persuasion of the universities taking the stance. To the deluded campaigners, there is no difference - not because they are Israeli, but because they represent Israel and her policy.
I trust I make myself obscure. :speechless:
Stupid pillocks. Doing stuff like that only weakens our argument that what Israel is doing is wrong. I will debate anyone who stands up for what Israel did/does, and it is crucial that other Anti-Zionists act the same, because not only does violence/intimidation defeat the object of our cause, but it gives them ammunition. A Free Palestine, and consequently, Peace in the Middle East, can only be won with words, not bullets.
But let's get one thing straight.
Anti-Zionism != Anti-Israel
Anti-Zionism != Anti-Semitism
Yep the whole world is turning against Israel - at my Uni the protestors called for a boycott on all Israeli products sold on campus.
Way ahead of them. I've been doing that since I was 13. Israel will only face the reality of the situation through economics, when they realise that by continuing down that path, Israelis will be worse off in the long run.
A Free Palestine, and consequently, Peace in the Middle East, can only be won with words, not bullets.
Screw peace, ain't gonna happen, nobody wants peace Palestinia is way too convenient as a pet-issue for arab leaders to keep their people angry at something else then their corrupt governments. This isn't about palestina it's much bigger then that pathetic piece of desert and it's pathetic inhibitants this is a media war and palestina is the frontline.
xenophobia |ˌzēnəˈfōbēə; ˌzenə-|
noun
intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries
lol, I guess your dictionary got laboured. Xenophobia is a fear of things unknown.
rasoforos
02-22-2009, 11:32
Israel only produces avocados, sharon fruits and advanced military equipment anyway...
...not much to boycott.
I would disagree with boycotting Israeli academics. Many Israelis are against the current stance of their government. In addition they are in my/your country to work/teach and not to spread Israeli Government propaganda. And it is just a tiny step to merge the terms Jewish and Israeli and end up demonizing people who have no connection whatsoever to whatever happens in Palestine.
Screw peace, ain't gonna happen, nobody wants peace Palestinia is way too convenient as a pet-issue for arab leaders to keep their people angry at something else then their corrupt governments. This isn't about palestina it's much bigger then that pathetic piece of desert and it's pathetic inhibitants this is a media war and palestina is the frontline.
Well surely that's a good thing. Solve Palestine, and Arabs start to notice the rubbishy state of their own countries, and demand change, leading to George W's precious demokratia.
Israel only produces avocados, sharon fruits and advanced military equipment anyway...
That just makes it easier to boycott. Apart from the missiles...
I would disagree with boycotting Israeli academics. Many Israelis are against the current stance of their government. In addition they are in my/your country to work/teach and not to spread Israeli Government propaganda. And it is just a tiny step to merge the terms Jewish and Israeli and end up demonizing people who have no connection whatsoever to whatever happens in Palestine.
Yeah, I wouldn't boycott academics. That would just annoy Israelis, since it wouldn't affect the vast majority of them, and hurt only national pride. However, I feel that economically, Israel needs to be boycotted since as Israel is a democracy, the only way change will come about is through vast shifts in public opinion, and the only way that's going to come about is through economics. Of course, there will be some collateral damage, some businesses will go bust, but hey; that's just the way the cookie crumbles. It's not like the Israeli government cared about the collateral damage it's bombs cause in Palestine.
Well surely that's a good thing. Solve Palestine, and Arabs start to notice the rubbishy state of their own countries, and demand change
That is why it ain't going to happen. Islamists can be killed though, so just kill them and don't feel all that sorry about it. Can't be fixed, there will never be peace it's not possible they don't want it.
Hooahguy
02-22-2009, 15:57
Israel only produces avocados, sharon fruits and advanced military equipment anyway...
...not much to boycott.
I would disagree with boycotting Israeli academics. Many Israelis are against the current stance of their government. In addition they are in my/your country to work/teach and not to spread Israeli Government propaganda. And it is just a tiny step to merge the terms Jewish and Israeli and end up demonizing people who have no connection whatsoever to whatever happens in Palestine.
and diamonds, and someof the most advanced technology in the world. you know of the Pill-Cam? designed by israelis, IIRC.
rasoforos
02-22-2009, 17:04
and diamonds, and someof the most advanced technology in the world. you know of the Pill-Cam? designed by israelis, IIRC.
I was trying to make a point about the fact that Israel is not exactly a heavy industry economy (and where it is like in weapons then the end client is not your average joe) so a boycott would not have much effect anyway...
...and I do not really have a great curiosity to see how my digestive system looks like so the Pill-Cam is out of the question anyway :beam:
Hooahguy
02-22-2009, 17:26
that is true. israels biggest industry in tourism.
KukriKhan
02-22-2009, 21:09
Israel only produces avocados, sharon fruits and advanced military equipment anyway...
...and ICQ.
and NASDAQ-listed companies
and bio-tech startups
and uni-educated workers
and VoiceMail
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-23-2009, 00:34
No it isn't.
xenophobia |ˌzēnəˈfōbēə; ˌzenə-|
noun
intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries
Sanctions against Israeli academics are political weapons.
Agreed so far.
Those taking the stance may have xenophobic reasons too
This was my point - the same people encouraging boycotts were those rioting in York University.
but the main thrust is to protest Israeli policy, not to dislike Israelis.
Agree and disagree. I believe there are two exceptionally large groups, and that they often overlap, again as shown in the article.
In most cases, these sanctions would disappear if Israel changed policy to one that suited the political persuasion of the universities taking the stance.
Such as disappearing...
To the deluded campaigners, there is no difference - not because they are Israeli, but because they represent Israel and her policy.
Again, I agree and disagree. :bow:
Sheogorath
02-23-2009, 02:19
The whole situation is stupid beyond belief. Not just the campus protests and violence, but the entire Israel and Palestine mixup.
It's funny how otherwise perfectly reasonable people have trouble seeing this issue in anything other than solid black and white. One side shouts that the Israeli's are nothing but a bunch of evil land-stealing baby-murderers, the other responds that Palestinians use children as suicide bombers and want to kill all the Jews.
Frankly, both sides are equally guilty, so all things considered it makes no matter which side you support. The best move would just be to not support either. The Israeli's can plainly handle themselves and the Palestinians have most of the Arab world backing them.
Sadly the only real solution I see at this point would be going back in time and massacring everybody at the conferences that partitioned the Ottoman Empire.
It's rather unfortunate that the region was at it's best under one of the most corrupt and useless governments in the history of mankind. Maybe the real solution to the whole situation is just to give the entire Middle East back to Turkey.
CountArach
02-23-2009, 06:21
xenophobia |ˌzēnəˈfōbēə; ˌzenə-|
noun
intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries
lol, I guess your dictionary got laboured. Xenophobia is a fear of things unknown.
Xenos = Ancient Greek "Stranger" or "Alien"
Phobia = Fear
Therefore Xenophobia = :idea:
Countries in ancient greece?
Banquo's Ghost
02-23-2009, 08:24
Fragony is right, in that xenophobia has also come to mean fear of the unknown.
Which revelation has absolutely no relevance to refuting my point, if that was the intention.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
02-23-2009, 11:58
Countries in ancient greece?
Yes, as in political nation-states with formal constitutions; such as Athens and Sparta.
Or Kingdoms, like Macedonia and Epirus.
OT: I'm not in favour a blanket bans on academics, but a trade embargo (sp?) seems entirely appropriate. Pointless though, so long as Israel is bankrolled by the US.
It's called a Polis, City states not country's, and most certainly not nation-states.
Not to burst anyone's bubble, but I can't see what all the fuss is about. When's anything that a bunch of student's have done actually amounted to anything?
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-23-2009, 22:49
Not to burst anyone's bubble, but I can't see what all the fuss is about. When's anything that a bunch of student's have done actually amounted to anything?
Did you read the article? :inquisitive:
Kralizec
02-23-2009, 23:03
Uh, can someone explain to me why a "student government" has passed a resolution about Israel and Gaza in the first place? :inquisitive:
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-23-2009, 23:07
Uh, can someone explain to me why a "student government" has passed a resolution about Israel and Gaza in the first place? :inquisitive:
Student governments and universities in Canada like to interfere with things they shouldn't (like trying to exclude military presentations from job fair events, trying to ban pro-life groups and protestors because they are "anti-woman" - even the ones with majority female councils, mind you - and so on).
Kralizec
02-23-2009, 23:14
Ah.
Over here almost nobody cares about the university elections. The most common reason to vote for a candidate is because you know him or her.
I think I prefer it that way...
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-23-2009, 23:32
Ah.
Over here almost nobody cares about the university elections. The most common reason to vote for a candidate is because you know him or her.
I think I prefer it that way...
Well, it works like that too in a way I presume. I don't know from personal experience, but rather from friends. I'm not honestly sure how much they care about their student elections. :shrug: I presume from these events student government has a relatively fair amount of power though.
Still though, in York University the Student Government was absolutely out of bounds, as you can see by the article. If your job is to represent students, you don't endorse the people that are striking and preventing the students from going to school...
EDIT: Post #34 is all verified, and I can find appropriate citations from national newspapers if necessary. :bow:
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-24-2009, 22:08
Ken Coates (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/02/24/ken-coates-standing-with-the-jews.aspx)
LittleGrizzly
02-24-2009, 22:27
Ken Coates (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/02/24/ken-coates-standing-with-the-jews.aspx)
People who link israel and jews that really don't help the problem (on both sides) people need to learn to seperate the actions of the israeli goverment from jewish people and need to seperate criticism of israel from criticism of jews.
Of course it is only an idiot who would attack a jew because of israeli policy, but why make the connection for them ?
Edit and im a bit tired of the accusation that criticism of israeli policy is anti semitism
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-24-2009, 22:33
Of course it is only an idiot who would attack a jew because of israeli policy, but why make the connection for them ?
Perhaps because there are far too many of them?
Edit and im a bit tired of the accusation that criticism of israeli policy is anti semitism
Criticism of Israeli policy is not anti-Semetism, and the author did not make that claim. Disproportionate criticism of Israel, on the other hand, has what I would argue to be anti-Semetic motives.
Standing with the Jewish people of Canada does not assume unquestioning support for Israel or the actions of the current government.
LittleGrizzly
02-24-2009, 22:43
Perhaps because there are far too many of them?
There's far too many people who hate all kinds of people... i haven't heard the same connection made about hating black people and ctriticism of zimbabwe...
Criticism of Israeli policy is not anti-Semetism, and the author did not make that claim.
From the article
The mounting criticism of Israel, much of unjustified and often leaning toward anti-Semitic attacks
Maybe I read too much into the words Much and Often. I think Israel tends to get a fairly easy ride in the main stream press considering, and im not in the slightest bit anti-semitic
Though i confess if the guy has been constantly listening to propaganda from extremists then its probably leaning alot towards racism, extremists tend to go for that...
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-24-2009, 22:50
There's far too many people who hate all kinds of people...
That is true.
From the article
The mounting criticism of Israel, much of unjustified and often leaning toward anti-Semitic attacks
Which is true.
Maybe I read too much into the words Much and Often.
I don't think so - much of it is unjustified and much of it is leaning towards anti-Semetic attacks.
I think Israel tends to get a fairly easy ride in the main stream press considering, and im not in the slightest bit anti-semitic
:inquisitive:
Though i confess if the guy has been constantly listening to propaganda from extremists then its probably leaning alot towards racism, extremists tend to go for that...
He is a professor at Waterloo - I think he can differentiate.
Major Robert Dump
02-25-2009, 04:10
Hebrew National makes the best hot dogs I've ever eaten, excluding that one time in County Jail. Anti-Semites can go to hell
LittleGrizzly
02-25-2009, 10:33
I don't think so - much of it is unjustified and much of it is leaning towards anti-Semetic attacks.
I have to disagree, Israel gets a fairly easy ride in the mainstream press so to call much of the criticism anti semitic is just rubbish, the main stream press is much more feverent in its criticism of various muslim terrorists groups and all kinds of bad states around the world like zimbabwe, but all of a sudden when Israel gets criticised its anti semitism... rubbish. The press is basically there to criticise (well actually report, but it usually takes the form of complaint) to somehow link this criticism to racism is a terrible thing to do, by doing so you will only stifle debate which is bad for all sides concerned.
And you will just annoy the people who think criticism is justified, for example we have many .org members here who would agree with lots of the criticism Israel recieves, so if perfectly logical .org members* can think criticism of israel is justified then why would the main stream press's criticism of israel be down to racism ?
*unless you think all the .org members which criticise israel are anti semitic... which would make it fairly pointless debating with you. I remember Idaho saying he is a jew, he is much more stern in his criticism than the vast majority of main stream press.... thus Idaho is more anti semitic than the main stream press, and as this guy said... alot of it is anti semitic... so i can only think Idaho really hates jews...
The author made the claim that much of the main stream press's criticism of israel is anti semitic. To me this sentence is no different from criticism of israel being anti semitic, as the criticism was very light and porbably less than israel deserved...
Furunculus
02-25-2009, 12:45
re. the mainstream press be biased against israel
what i would dearly love to see is the internal BBC report into possible anti-israeli bias in its reporting.................. that for bizarre reasons it refuses to publish, even in the face of FOI requests!
Firstly the BBC is not the 'mainstream press'
The BBC report is unfortunately not going to be released anytime soon I doubt, for odd reasons, although I think another independant review released recently found it was almost entirely neutral (apart from some individual reporting) - the second problem the BBC has is it isn't easy to be neutral, the BBC tends to do say 'palestine say this, Israel say this' in all there reports on the conflict, but clearly this doesnt always work, but imo its the best they can do. More recently they failed to show the humanitarian advert which was surely a bias towards (or at least a caution towards) Israel. Overall I think the BBC is slightly bias towards Israel, but as long as both sides think they are wrong, they must be doing something right...
the mainstream press is probably slightly bias towards Israel, but I think more focused on the humanitarian problems rather than being involved in the political conflict
the US media is supposed to be more towards Isreal, although I don't watch it, so don't know
mainstream criticism of Israel is certainly not anti-semetic
Furunculus
02-25-2009, 18:09
so they released the review that put them in the clear but suppressed the one that............. whoops, we don't know what it says. :D
for what its worth i disagree that israel receives impartial news coverage from the bbc, and until i see that suppressed report it is a view i will maintain. :)
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-25-2009, 22:15
Firstly the BBC is not the 'mainstream press'
So what is the mainstream press? When you type it into Wikipedia, it redirects to the page on mass media. When you look for the definition there, it is:
Mass media is a term used to denote a section of the media specifically envisioned and designed to reach a very large audience such as the population of a nation state.
Does the BBC not fit that criteria?
mainstream criticism of Israel is certainly not anti-semetic
As has been pointed out repeatedly, criticism of Israeli policies is not anti-Semetic, disproportionate criticism of Israel is generally done by those who are anti-Semetic or very pro-Hamas. Note that I say pro-Hamas and not pro-Palestinian, because Hamas sure as :daisy: isn't pro-Palestinian.
LittleGrizzly
02-25-2009, 22:30
disproportionate criticism of Israel is generally done by those who are anti-Semetic or very pro-Hamas.
Thats too subjective a measure, some overly nationalistic Israeli who believes Israel deserve more land may see people criticising land grabs as disproportionate criticism, thus making alot of people anti semitic by his measure.
Of course disproportionate criticism of anyone is done by people who have a paticular grudge and often will lean towards extreme tendacys. the problem is by whose view of disproportionate criticism ?
My second point it is obvious that over criticism can be a cover for something else, but why cant you genuinely accept alot of people aren't happy with israel simply because of its horrible actions, and main stream media reports and comments on these horrible actions.
Some people who do this are even jewish themselves, So how can you back up the statement much and often when a similar level of criticsm comes from people who simply cannot be anti semitic, thus the view they share cannot be based on racism...
Thus its the same old tired defence used to try to deflect criticism from Israel and tarnish those who criticise it...
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-25-2009, 22:44
Thats too subjective a measure, some overly nationalistic Israeli who believes Israel deserve more land may see people criticising land grabs as disproportionate criticism, thus making alot of people anti semitic by his measure.
For example, criticizing Israel for doing something that you tolerate in another country, even if the situations are very similar.
My second point it is obvious that over criticism can be a cover for something else, but why cant you genuinely accept alot of people aren't happy with israel simply because of its horrible actions, and main stream media reports and comments on these horrible actions.
Some people who do this are even jewish themselves, So how can you back up the statement much and often when a similar level of criticsm comes from people who simply cannot be anti semitic, thus the view they share cannot be based on racism...
I think you missed my point - it is perfectly OK for people to be upset with Israeli actions. I'm not claiming - and nobody on this forum has claimed - that being upset with Israeli actions (I hesitate to use the term "horrible") is anti-Semetic in and of itself.
The articles posted, however? They show clear anti-Semetism. That is where it has obviously gone beyond Israel alone. That is where it is completely unacceptable.
LittleGrizzly
02-26-2009, 02:01
For example, criticizing Israel for doing something that you tolerate in another country, even if the situations are very similar.
Thats a fair sounding measure... people will always have this reason or that reason that its different, we can hardly ever agree an appropriate example to use in our backroom debates so out in the wider world people will have this reason or that reason and i think alot of the time people do believe that the difference someone elses thinks is minor is a big difference to someone else...
I think you missed my point - it is perfectly OK for people to be upset with Israeli actions. I'm not claiming - and nobody on this forum has claimed - that being upset with Israeli actions (I hesitate to use the term "horrible") is anti-Semetic in and of itself.
Ok I understand your point but you don't seem to understand what im trying to get at
From the article
The mounting criticism of Israel, much of unjustified and often leaning toward anti-Semitic attacks
I assumed he was talking of the main stream press and you assured me he knew the difference when i joked about it. So this comment is about the main stream press....
Firstly he say's much of it is unjustified... if i was to put a mathamatical figure on much it would be 70% (at least)
Out of the this much unjustified criticism, it is often leaning towards anti semitic attack. Often is a bit less clearer but i would think of a figure at least 60%...
So for every 100 articles in the main stream press criticising israel at least 42 were leaning towards anti semitism, that why im saying he is basically writing off criticism off israel as anti semitism, there is no way that much of the main stream press was being racist to israel, i don't know what your papers are like but if it had been muslims doing this The Sun and The Daily Mail would have been blowing thier tops...
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-26-2009, 02:20
From the article
The mounting criticism of Israel, much of unjustified and often leaning toward anti-Semitic attacks
I assumed he was talking of the main stream press and you assured me he knew the difference when i joked about it. So this comment is about the main stream press....
Firstly he say's much of it is unjustified... if i was to put a mathamatical figure on much it would be 70% (at least)
Much does not equal most. There can be a great quantity of unjustified criticism and it may still not be the majority. Nonetheless, there is a massive amount of unjustified criticism in the mainstream media - though you, being a critic of Israel, probably disagree.
Out of the this much unjustified criticism, it is often leaning towards anti semitic attack. Often is a bit less clearer but i would think of a figure at least 60%...
Leaning towards is not quite the same as being. Some of it is undoubtedly anti-Semitic, and some of it is probably approaching that. It also depends on your definition of anti-Semitism. At any rate, there is the concept of New Antisemitism, which I assume is what the author is talking about.
i don't know what your papers are like but if it had been muslims doing this The Sun and The Daily Mail would have been blowing thier tops...
Hamas isn't Muslim? :inquisitive:
LittleGrizzly
02-26-2009, 02:30
Hamas isn't Muslim?
If hamas carried out a similar style attack on an area that was as packed with people as paelstine with no escape then the papers would be up in arms... and believe me the likes of the sun and the daily mail are far quicker to criticise hamas than israel...
Nonetheless, there is a massive amount of unjustified criticism in the mainstream media - though you, being a critic of Israel, probably disagree.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree here, i just see it as the same old tired excuse to defelct criticism from israel and thats why it annoyed me...
It also depends on your definition of anti-Semitism. At any rate, there is the concept of New Antisemitism, which I assume is what the author is talking about.
Theres a new kind of anti jewish racism ??
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-26-2009, 02:45
If hamas carried out a similar style attack on an area that was as packed with people as paelstine with no escape then the papers would be up in arms... and believe me the likes of the sun and the daily mail are far quicker to criticise hamas than israel...
How many thousand rockets have they fired, again? :dizzy2:
Theres a new kind of anti jewish racism ??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism
LittleGrizzly
02-26-2009, 02:49
How many thousand rockets have they fired, again?
We can argue all day long about justification or who is worse but i don't think a comparison between the two is valid, they both do bad things but in different ways... and have different effects on the civilian populations of the other side...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism
These people are insane...
case in point
Proponents of the concept argue that anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism, anti-globalization, third worldism, and demonization of Israel or double standards applied to its conduct may be linked to antisemitism, or constitute disguised antisemitism.[1].
Hooahguy
02-26-2009, 03:04
How many thousand rockets have they fired, again?
We can argue all day long about justification or who is worse but i don't think a comparison between the two is valid, they both do bad things but in different ways... and have different effects on the civilian populations of the other side...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism
These people are insane...
case in point
Proponents of the concept argue that anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism, anti-globalization, third worldism, and demonization of Israel or double standards applied to its conduct may be linked to antisemitism, or constitute disguised antisemitism.[1].
so you are calling Professor Irwin Cotler, a leading scholar in human rights, insane?
he stated 9 sets of this:
1) Genocidal anti-Semitism- the public calls for the destruction of Israel and the Jewish people, like Hamas
2) Political anti-Semitism- denial of the Jewish peoples right to self-determination, the de-legitimization of Israel as a state, and the attribution of Israel of all the worlds evils- Israel as the “poisoner of international wells”
3) Ideological anti-Semitism- surpasses the Zionism = racism rhetoric to “Nazify” Israel
4) Theological anti-Semitism- the convergence of Islamic anti-Semitism and Christian “replacement” theology, drawing on classical hatred of Jews
5) Cultural anti-Semitism- the mélange of attitudes, sentiments and discourse of “fashionable” salon intellectuals
6) Economic anti-Semitism- goes beyond the Arab boycott of Israel to include extra-territorial application of restrictive covenants against countries trading with Israel
7) Holocaust denial
8) Racist terrorism against Jews
9) Denial to Israel of equality before the law on international arena- the singling out of Israel for differential and discriminatory treatment in the international arena
it makes perfect sense.
LittleGrizzly
02-26-2009, 03:22
so you are calling Professor Irwin Cotler, a leading scholar in human rights, insane?
If he thinks that anti globalisationism and anti americanism are anti semitic.. then yes, or maybe i should define it to that opinion being insane...
Onto your list, the fact is Israel gives people just reason to complain about its actions, sure anti-semites relish this oppurtunity to jump on board... maybe a good reason to not give people a just reason to complain as the racists can hide amongst them.
I don't doubt of course that racism takes many forms it just seems to me that Israel and some of it supporters use it as a cheap way to write off criticism as simply racist rather than look into what they are criticising...
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-26-2009, 03:28
so you are calling Professor Irwin Cotler, a leading scholar in human rights, insane?
If he thinks that anti globalisationism and anti americanism are anti semitic.. then yes, or maybe i should define it to that opinion being insane...
*ahem*
may be linked to antisemitism, or constitute disguised antisemitism.
The most anti-American people I know of are also the most anti-Semitic. Maybe it is a coincidence, but I think not. At any rate, it says linked to, not is.
LittleGrizzly
02-26-2009, 03:50
The most anti-American people I know of are also the most anti-Semitic.
Or maybe it is just that they don't like american foriegn policy and israeli treatment of palestinians. It is quite similar to the recent "anti americanism" in a way though... around the iraq war time there was a lot of disagreement between europeans and americans, there was some anti americanism present in this sentiment, but it was founded on a justified concerns rather than racist or similarly nasty intentions...
Another example you may agree more with is the american reaction back against the french, there was plenty of anti frenchism in with it, but it was based off justified disagreements. The fact that there was anti frenchism within thier ranks doesn't discredit thier argument, or shouldn't at least...
I personally prefer to listen to people views on the situation and judge thier view based on the accuracy of thier statements rather than write it off as anti this or anti that...
and anti globalisation linked to anti semitism as well :rolleyes: anti globalisation movements always tend to have a problem with oppression no matter who the oppressor is... but of course they are unjustified criticisms :rolleyes:
I guess my main point is i think it is overblown as a way of disregarding much of the legitimate criticism israel gets... were probably just flogging a dead horse as we clearly disagree about the level of anti semitism in the main stream press
Strike For The South
02-26-2009, 03:53
To be fair I have been anti-France for awhile.
The people who equate jews with Israel are the same people who won't amount to anything besides godless leaches on America. They can all stay in California
Hooahguy
02-26-2009, 04:02
@ LG- the point is that people who is grossly disproportionately criticizing israel for something, like someone protests the "genocide" of Palestinians, but is %100 silent about the real genocide in Darfur, i think its right to call this person an anti-semite.
i would be more articulate in my explanation, but im tired right now.... :snore:
CountArach
02-26-2009, 04:08
The most anti-American people I know of are also the most anti-Semitic. Maybe it is a coincidence, but I think not.
Yes. It is a coincidence.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-26-2009, 04:18
Yes. It is a coincidence.
I sincerely doubt that. There are some things that are a little too coincidental.
LittleGrizzly
02-26-2009, 15:56
LG- the point is that people who is grossly disproportionately criticizing israel for something, like someone protests the "genocide" of Palestinians, but is %100 silent about the real genocide in Darfur, i think its right to call this person an anti-semite.
I understand where you are coming from but it doesn't nessecarily follow on... let me give an example
We are almost talking about various elements of american policy here, in all my time here i have probably levelled more criticism at america than any other nation. I have criticised USA far more than i have criticised zimbabwe or various other terrible regimes around the world. You could put this down to one of a few things...
1. Anti Americanism
2. America is basically the world leader, so all its decisions are going have much more affect around the world
3. Holding so called morally superior countrys such as USA and UK to a higher morale standard
With point 2 obviously Israel doesn't have quite the same effect as USA but its actions are largely felt throughout the world with things such as Islamic terrorism and fluctuations in oil price. Whereas Zimbabwe has very little effect on most people's lives....
Obviously someone who comes out and says "Israel is the worst nation in the world" is probably anti semitic, not very intelligent or some mix of the two... i would put a little disclaimer against people who have been personally terribly affect by Israel, not that it makes thier statement right to say, just that a person who is intelligent and not racist can be lead to a hatred of one country above others because they are biased by bad personal experiences.
It would be impractical if we never criticised a country without listing everything wrong everyone else is doing in comparison
I sincerely doubt that. There are some things that are a little too coincidental.
EMFM i think that is as much of a conincidence as the fact that the anti-muslims seem to be also anti venezula, so either both sides are filled with racists of different type, anti semites and anti americans on the left... anti muslims and anti venezulans on the right...
OR
Revolutionairy mind blowing concept coming up... prepare yourself....
Left wingers have a world view that disagrees with much of the recent actions of israel and american foriegn policy and this is why they criticise...
Right wingers have a world view that says people like Hugo Chavez are dangerous and will only be bad for things for the venezulan people and this is why they criticise...
I think the commentary on Israel's actions in the main stream press is as much unjustified and often leaning towards anti semitism as the commentary on venezula's actions is unjustified and often leaning towards anti venezulainism...
I would still criticise the actions of any country, including my own, just as much for doing what Israel is doing at the present/has done for the past 60 years. In the same way, I am opposed to Communism, but that does not mean I am anti-Russian.
Hooahguy
02-26-2009, 21:11
subotan- thats not what we are arguing.
it is 100% if you criticize israel, or any country for that matter.
Define country. Do you mean the government/policies of a state, or the people within a state? If we go by the first definition, I criticise Israel. If we go by the second, then I am anti-Zionist. Besides, what about Jews who are anti-Zionist/Israel? Are they anti-Semitic too?
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-26-2009, 23:01
EMFM i think that is as much of a conincidence as the fact that the anti-muslims seem to be also anti venezula, so either both sides are filled with racists of different type, anti semites and anti americans on the left... anti muslims and anti venezulans on the right...
I'm not saying that anti-Americans and anti-Semites are only on the far-left. The far-right is filled with the same ilk. And yes, they are anti-American. They hate America, or they hate Israel. No right-winger hates Venezuela (on the contrary, we want to save the Venezuelan people...I don't think the left has the same sentiment toward Israel), and while some may hate Muslims, I doubt very many do - even those who dislike rampant immigration. I'd elaborate on some more inherent differences, but I just finished the update of the Political Profile thread, and I need a break.
LittleGrizzly
02-26-2009, 23:20
No right-winger hates Venezuela (on the contrary, we want to save the Venezuelan people...I don't think the left has the same sentiment toward Israel),
Thats were your wrong. You want to save the venezulan people from thier own goverment the same way we want to save the Israeli people from thier own goverment. We want them to have a more peaceful goverment and im sure peace could only bring better times for Israeli's. I wish them the best and im sure any other decent person would, sure theres a few bad apples who hate muslims or hates jews, but it would be a bit cheap to write off a decent share of quality main stream coverage of either muslim or jews as racist...
and while some may hate Muslims, I doubt very many do
Its only the extreme fringes of coverage that are racist towards muslims or jews, they just shout loudly so everyone pays more attention to them...
Hooahguy
02-27-2009, 00:25
Define country. Do you mean the government/policies of a state, or the people within a state? If we go by the first definition, I criticise Israel. If we go by the second, then I am anti-Zionist. Besides, what about Jews who are anti-Zionist/Israel? Are they anti-Semitic too?
first of all, anti-zionism is kinda complicated. many ways to interpret it. you may have heard the saying "zionism=racism" which is complete :daisy:.
zionism, the way i interperet it:
the wanting of jews to return to their biblical homeland.
thats it. :sweatdrop:
i repeat, just because you are anti-israel does not make you an anti-semite. in fact, AFAIK, Idaho, who is a member here, is anti-israel and he is jewish, i think.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
02-28-2009, 00:12
Thats were your wrong. You want to save the venezulan people from thier own goverment the same way we want to save the Israeli people from thier own goverment.
I sincerely doubt that, sorry. It is more along the lines of wanting to "save" the Palestinians from the Israeli government. In my opinion, the
Its only the extreme fringes of coverage that are racist towards muslims or jews, they just shout loudly so everyone pays more attention to them...
Yeah... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=PLlHPPO25nM&feature=related)
...and what about the good one that Frag had? Where has that got to?
And by the way - they're baaaaaaaaack. (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/02/27/york-university-s-moment-of-truth-a-real-university-or-a-degree-granting-hangout-for-radical-jew-baiters.aspx)
I suppose all of these students are on the extreme fringes as well. Or is anti-Semitism more common than some people thought?
:idea2:
LittleGrizzly
02-28-2009, 23:23
I sincerely doubt that, sorry.
Ohh, well in that case...
It is more along the lines of wanting to "save" the Palestinians from the Israeli government.
If you believe peace would be good for both people, i believe it would be, then wanting for peace is wanting to save both people, if you think people on the left just want the jews to get 'done over' then i think you sadly mistaken...
Yeah... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=DE&hl=de&v=PLlHPPO25nM&feature=related)
...and what about the good one that Frag had? Where has that got to?
And by the way - they're baaaaaaaaack. (http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/fullcomment/archive/2009/02/27/york-university-s-moment-of-truth-a-real-university-or-a-degree-granting-hangout-for-radical-jew-baiters.aspx)
I suppose all of these students are on the extreme fringes as well. Or is anti-Semitism more common than some people thought?
Ok israeli criticism is based on raving anti semitism by leftys and muslim criticism is based on crazy anti islamism by rightys...
Need i remind you that a strongly anti muslim party won council seats here in Britian. Conclusion, mainstream press coverage of Muslim nations and peoples is mostly unjustified and often anti islamic....
Evil_Maniac From Mars
03-01-2009, 06:18
If you believe peace would be good for both people, i believe it would be, then wanting for peace is wanting to save both people, if you think people on the left just want the jews to get 'done over' then i think you sadly mistaken...
Seems to me that an awful lot of them argue for peace at the expense of Israel, regardless of what Israel does.
Ok israeli criticism is based on raving anti semitism by leftys and muslim criticism is based on crazy anti islamism by rightys...
Anti-Semitism and anti-Islamism are two different things. I'd explain why, but Ayaan Hirsi Ali did it so much better. And for the final time, criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitism.
Need i remind you that a strongly anti muslim party won council seats here in Britian.
Yes, the BNP, we all dislike them.
Conclusion, mainstream press coverage of Muslim nations and peoples is mostly unjustified and often anti islamic....
The BNP wins council seats, the Socialist Party is in the Tweede Kamer. Even if this wasn't the case, your analogy doesn't work.
rasoforos
03-01-2009, 07:03
They hate America, or they hate Israel. No right-winger hates Venezuela (on the contrary, we want to save the Venezuelan people...
It is self-righteous statements like that that spur anti-Americanism...
Do get off that high horse please because such a statement is very offensive. You may not realize it but it is. The US has 'saved' enough countries as it is by installing dictators...do not wonder why so many people want to 'save' you back.
To the general subject:
I think we have abused the terms Zionism and Anti-Semitism enough already...
Of course the argument that if you oppose Israeli foreign policy you are Anti-Semitic is the bastard child of the long held argument that if you oppose US foreign policy you are Anti-American (and oh how popular this argument is in this thread!). Now these arguments do not make any sense... but they work and that's is what really matters to some.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
03-01-2009, 07:16
Of course the argument that if you oppose Israeli foreign policy you are Anti-Semitic is the bastard child of the long held argument that if you oppose US foreign policy you are Anti-American (and oh how popular this argument is in this thread!).
For what has to be at least the tenth time, opposing Israel does not make you anti-Semitic and opposing American foreign policy does not make you anti-American. :wall:
Hooahguy
03-01-2009, 18:19
To the general subject:
I think we have abused the terms Zionism and Anti-Semitism enough already...
Of course the argument that if you oppose Israeli foreign policy you are Anti-Semitic is the bastard child of the long held argument that if you oppose US foreign policy you are Anti-American (and oh how popular this argument is in this thread!). Now these arguments do not make any sense... but they work and that's is what really matters to some.
EDIT: sorry m8 i did not read you correctly.
rasoforos
03-01-2009, 18:50
my god, how many times do we need to drill into your head that criticizing israel does not make you an anti-semite!!!
:angry::angry::angry::angry::angry:
Wow hold your horses there youngster! I would appreciate it if you were a bit more polite about it.
I haven't said that it does make you and anti-Semite.
I am not referring to anyone in particular or saying that you used this argument yourself. All I am saying is that it is being used (we all know well it does since the term 'anti-semitism' does not appear out of thin air in the threads. Somebody says it). I am trying to emphasize the fallacy of such arguments and at the same time their effectiveness.
I hope it is clear now.
Hooahguy
03-01-2009, 19:02
yaya, i know. i just read it a second time much more carefully and realized my mistake. sorry for blowing up. :shame:
LittleGrizzly
03-01-2009, 21:52
Anti-Semitism and anti-Islamism are two different things. I'd explain why, but Ayaan Hirsi Ali did it so much better.
Im arguing thier effect on mainstream press rather than that thier similarity...
Seems to me that an awful lot of them argue for peace at the expense of Israel, regardless of what Israel does.
If you think there some mentality on the left to punish Israel then it would be no more (less so imo) mainstream than the rights mentality to punish Muslims.
And for the final time, criticism of Israel is not anti-Semitism.
Hopefully we can clarify this once and for all now, im referring to this sentence which you agreed with... i would rather not have to put it everywhere as a reminder
From the article
The mounting criticism of Israel, much of unjustified and often leaning toward anti-Semitic attacks
Just below in my post i put in this line
mainstream press coverage of Muslim nations and peoples is mostly unjustified and often anti islamic....
The BNP wins council seats, the Socialist Party is in the Tweede Kamer.
Ill assume this Socialist party is as anti semitic as BNP are Anti muslim...
So we should look at British main stream press coverage of muslims as mostly unjustified and often leading toward to anti muslim attacks. But then Dutch coverage of Israel as mostly anti semitic and often leading toward anti semitic attacks...
Even if this wasn't the case, your analogy doesn't work.
I was referring to the Muslim people rather than the religion...
Seamus Fermanagh
03-02-2009, 00:11
Just a brief note of thanks. This thread, from its inception, had the potential to spin out of control and require much moderator effort. Instead, the argument has been well paced, on topic, non-personal and lacking in demagoguery. Impressively done all of you.
Thanks to all!
Yes. It is a coincidence.
Then it's a coincidence very very often
LittleGrizzly
03-02-2009, 16:21
Just a brief note of thanks. This thread, from its inception, had the potential to spin out of control and require much moderator effort. Instead, the argument has been well paced, on topic, non-personal and lacking in demagoguery. Impressively done all of you.
Thanks to all!
Just giving you guys a break until we discuss the Israel Palestine issue for the millionth time.. ~;)
Then it's a coincidence very very often
Its not exactly as if it damning evidence of something, people who tend to have a problem with America's foriegn policy also have a problem with Israels occupation...
You could also on the other hand point out the conincidence between people who agree with American foriegn policy and Israels actions in the Middle East...
What do these two conincidences prove.... that leftys or rightys are somehow influenced or bolstered by anti semites or anti muslims... or that left wingers tend to have a world view that disagrees with both Israel and America and that right wingers tend to have a world view that backs both Israel and America...
I would say a little of the first one but by far mostly the latter, of course there is some racism behind some people's decison making if you get a large enough test group. But the fact is these racists factor little in either sides reasoning or thinking, despite the attempts by some to paint racism as heavily influential on one or the other sides thinking, the fact is it factors in very little and it is usually used as a cheap excuse to deflect reasonable criticism...
Ironside
03-02-2009, 23:16
Then it's a coincidence very very often
I would rather say that the link is from a sort of "fight the power and the system", the US is a top dog and so is Israel (neither is showing thier fangs fully, but they're shown). Capitalism and globalism is the system.
That's the left's anti-"everything" movements, I don't think the drive force in most muslim circuits are the same though.
Seems to me that an awful lot of them argue for peace at the expense of Israel, regardless of what Israel does.
I'm not sure that it might be some more fanatic movements, but aren't the usual argument "return to 1968 borders", thus making every offer Israel gives that is less, too little?
Can you argue that lost annexation of territory counts as expense to the occupier?
Not that I think that those borders will be followed when the treaty finally comes, Israel will probably annex some parts, but I digress.
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