What is that?

[Zett]

I fought some battles in my Mak-Campaign near the Hanging Gardens and I saw them in one of the Legions vs. Phalanx tournament replays today, so I think its the right time to ask this question:

What is that "thing" supposed to be?

https://img410.imageshack.us/img410/5835/babylon3ko2.png (https://img410.imageshack.us/my.php?image=babylon3ko2.png)

Perhaps some kind of acient scaffolding?

Here are some other pics

https://img22.imageshack.us/img22/5653/babylon2oq9.png (https://img22.imageshack.us/my.php?image=babylon2oq9.png)
https://img9.imageshack.us/img9/9261/rometw2009022021262270et5.png (https://img9.imageshack.us/my.php?image=rometw2009022021262270et5.png)
https://img3.imageshack.us/img3/1584/babylon1lh8.png (https://img3.imageshack.us/my.php?image=babylon1lh8.png)
nice overview



And about the tournament replays:

https://img7.imageshack.us/img7/491/square2su5.png (https://img7.imageshack.us/my.php?image=square2su5.png)
IrishHitman forming a square, reminds me of the film "the four feathers"

https://img18.imageshack.us/img18/2739/square1yi0.png (https://img18.imageshack.us/my.php?image=square1yi0.png)
http://www.unreel.co.uk/reviews/t/The_Four_Feathers/co8.jpg

Nicely done IrishHitman, looks cool:beam:

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Onehandstan]

It's just another section of the gardens isn't it?

[BurningEGO]

LOL.

Seriously, if someone actually did that kind of formation in an online match, he is extremely lame.

Better bring up some catapults!

[A Very Super Market]

A crappy imitation of the hanging gardens? No idea..

Anyways, who won that battle?

[Zett]

A crappy imitation of the hanging gardens? No idea..

Anyways, who won that battle?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=112552&page=11

The pic of the hanging gardens is from the "1vs1vs1vs" replay
The square is from the "2vs2" replay

Go and find out yourselve, who won it:yes:

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Aemilius Paulus]

I did not think I would ever utter such vulgar term, but lol, BurningEGO hit it right in the spot: the n00b box was noobish and lowly for vanilla, and in EB it is even more noobish, and even more lowly especially because of the fact that phalanxes are so overpowered in EB - nothing can get through them.

Anyway, as for the structure, why could it not be some sort of ancient ziggurat left over from the bygone days of Babylon? After all, it was an ancient city, and a Mesopotamian city, and those cities were famous for ziggurats. What do you think guys? The main question is whether it has steps on the other side. It could also be a sort of burial structure, a mausoleum, however, I do not recollect any civilizations in Mesopotamia building such imposing structures.

But wait, these buildings are all from vanilla. Which means that they are likely to be wildly inaccurate. Why am I even discussing this building??

[Ca Putt]

i always thought it was a very silly interpretation of the tower of babylon.

[Βελισάριος]

Actually, I was thinking the same thing... might be the tower of Babylon.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I cannot believe some of you are seriously complaining because a player has made the intelligent decision and formed square.

What do you want, a fair fight?

Additionally, kudos to Irishhitman for getting his seriously maulled guys inside the block and not trying to form pentagon with a duff side; or leaving them outside. Doubtless it also provided him with a rested reserve to plug the gap when one side collapsed.

[Zett]

What do you want, a fair fight?


They are Romans, I think the answer is clear.

And about that "thing", perhaps it should really be the tower of Babel/Babylon

http://templars.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/bruegel-tower-of-babel.jpg

Here a pic from the Hanging Gardens with the tower in the background
http://galleries.fototagger.com/image/babylon_tower.jpg

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[BurningEGO]

I cannot believe some of you are seriously complaining because a player has made the intelligent decision and formed square.

What do you want, a fair fight?

Additionally, kudos to Irishhitman for getting his seriously maulled guys inside the block and not trying to form pentagon with a duff side; or leaving them outside. Doubtless it also provided him with a rested reserve to plug the gap when one side collapsed.

Well considering i play computer games since around 1990, and that i have seen countless bull like that one, i wouldnt be very happy if i was his enemy.

Tactics like that are nearly unbeatable, and totaly unbeatable if you were playing like they were playing (Romans vs Greeks). Its just like spawn killing guys in certain FPS.

[desert]

Well considering i play computer games since around 1990, and that i have seen countless bull like that one, i wouldnt be very happy if i was his enemy.

Tactics like that are nearly unbeatable, and totaly unbeatable if you were playing like they were playing (Romans vs Greeks). Its just like spawn killing guys in certain FPS.

Camping, AWP noob, Zerg Rush, Rhino spam...you've seen it all?

And that's a cheap tactic. The proper response is to surround the square with your units and not attack, so at least you'll have a draw instead of a BS defeat.

[BurningEGO]

Heh... AWP in CS? Well, last time i had an hilarious match... Everyone on terrorists were using em, so i just grabbed a damned shield as a CT and had some fun.

But really, worst thing i ever saw was "bunker raping" in crysis. Helicopters (Vtols) shooting inside bunkers, people throwing lots of nades inside and even mining entrances. If you stay, you die, if you come out, you die, if you try to fight, you die. Seriously, i remember once that within a minute more then 30 guys got killed.

Only worse then that is when some ass keeps throwing random nukes around killing everyone from teammate to enemy.

Although i have never ever heard of any Rhino Rush. What game you are refering to? Isnt it something related with warhammer? I dislike warhammer (Actually i liked warhammer, but only the old versions of the ancient world - but definetely not 40k).

[desert]

Awww, I like 40K...

But Rhino Rush refers to Red Alert 2.

[satalexton]

u forgot the red-guard/minigunner spam =P

[BurningEGO]

Bleh red alert 2. From the C&C series i only like the first one plus renegade which i was addicted at. Tiberium wars wasnt bad but Generals really screwed the series.

Anyway going quite offtopic now.

[Dayve]

You should have refused to fight the match with a complete moron using a formation like that. Fighting them only sends the message that it's alright to use such pathetic and ridiculous formations, when it simply isn't.

It's nothing short of that pathetic thing people used to do in vanilla with the invincible Spartan hoplites and Cretan archers.

Infact, i would have banned whoever used it from the tournament.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Infact, i would have banned whoever used it from the tournament.
Same here. :yes:

[O'ETAIPOS]

But this is perfectly well known historical square formation, used by many armies ancient up to napoleonic wars and maybe even longer.
I understand that you, Romans, hate it :))))

[Jolt]

It is the Etemananki aka the Tower of Babel

http://www.livius.org/a/1/mesopotamia/etemenanki_drawing.gif

[Phalanx300]

But this is perfectly well known historical square formation, used by many armies ancient up to napoleonic wars and maybe even longer.
I understand that you, Romans, hate it :))))

Which many armies? For Phalangites to form such a block in the middle in a battle is not really possible, from ancient sources it took a while to just arrange a line of Phalangites, let alone a box or circle of phalangites.

I don't really think such a formation would be possible which is why I wouldn't use such tactics. Though there should be some rules on it like posted in the tread.

And it isn't hate, in real life it would be a mistake, you could just starve them out but multiplayer players can't do such things. Beating a Phalanx box with Roman legionairies is just impossible :shame:, which is why alot of players don't like such tactics.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Which many armies? For Phalangites to form such a block in the middle in a battle is not really possible, from ancient sources it took a while to just arrange a line of Phalangites, let alone a box or circle of phalangites.

I don't really think such a formation would be possible which is why I wouldn't use such tactics. Though there should be some rules on it like posted in the tread.

And it isn't hate, in real life it would be a mistake, you could just starve them out but multiplayer players can't do such things. Beating a Phalanx box with Roman legionairies is just impossible :shame:, which is why alot of players don't like such tactics.

You are wrong on every count.

The Macedonian army is recorded to have formed aquare when deprived of it's cavalry and the hoplites used to emply the same tactic, yes it does require time for the wings to counter-march but it is perfectly possible, and was used repeadedly, even by the Romans.

As to not being able to break a square, well the Romans did it to the Macedonians.

In any case, you don't "starve" them out, you attack them with missile, strike multiple corners of the square with heavy infantry and break it apart.

[Macilrille]

Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla is right, if I remember correctly Herodot/Herodotus is the first to describe it used by Hoplites, it is a historical formation and thus should be possible in EB. As I understand, Irish was getting beat up, a historical general would want to save his troops in such a situation; the Square was a possibility for that.

Further, you guys should generally be somewhat more polite. being called, lame, noobish and whatnot is probably not too pleasant. Treat others as you wish to be treated yourself, notice that while I am aggressive in historical debates, I try not to go for the guy, but for the ball (except when calling the Hellene lovers delusional, which was the only word my limited linguistic skill could think up in English to describe their belief), ie the argument, with other arguments, backed by facts.

That you should be politer to Irish, is especially poignant as he and the other participants in the tournament has the guts to go public and fight where we can all criticise and ridicule them, against opponents of unknown strength (a noob may potentially be facing the WC of EB, so give them a break. Especially if you do not participate yourself, spineless people and armchair generals should not criticise real generals or those with spine enough to expose themselves to our scrutiny. Analysis is fine, flaming is not, keep it polite and objective.

They play the tournament for fun and in good spirits, furthering the EB-Scene, applaud them for that even if you disagree with their choices. Show some maturity.


Notice that this was written by a great admirer and lover of Rome, who likes to whup Graeculi behinds, after all- their habits invite it. But who respects anyone who steps up and expose themselves to our barbs.

[Husker98]

You are wrong on every count.

The Macedonian army is recorded to have formed aquare when deprived of it's cavalry and the hoplites used to emply the same tactic, yes it does require time for the wings to counter-march but it is perfectly possible, and was used repeadedly, even by the Romans.

As to not being able to break a square, well the Romans did it to the Macedonians.

In any case, you don't "starve" them out, you attack them with missile, strike multiple corners of the square with heavy infantry and break it apart.

winner, that's text book depending on what units, pikes or roman style infantry, heavy cavalry can also create chaos on the corners, the parthians used cataphracts effectively against Crassus at carrhae.

[seienchin]

EB isnt historial correct and so using historical formation doesnt make them less lame, when they make you unbeatable cause of Ebs inaccurancy(Which is caused by a lot of things and some of them are hardcoded :whip::whip:). Especcialy with the weak artillery and Archers it is impossible to crack such a formation in EB. Maybe with 3gold chevron Sarmathian later Bodyguards but still hard...

[antisocialmunky]

winner, that's text book depending on what units, pikes or roman style infantry, heavy cavalry can also create chaos on the corners, the parthians used cataphracts effectively against Crassus at carrhae.

Granted that's because they were sitting in Testudo after getting shot for 2 hours all the while getting dehydrated by lack of water and an excess of heat.

[Phalanx300]

You are wrong on every count.

The Macedonian army is recorded to have formed aquare when deprived of it's cavalry and the hoplites used to emply the same tactic, yes it does require time for the wings to counter-march but it is perfectly possible, and was used repeadedly, even by the Romans.

As to not being able to break a square, well the Romans did it to the Macedonians.

In any case, you don't "starve" them out, you attack them with missile, strike multiple corners of the square with heavy infantry and break it apart.


You do realise that we are talking about Phalangites, who had 6 meter long spears and which it took very long to just to form a front line?

Hoplites and legionarries wouldn't have this problem as much as Phalangites.

Please as I said before post a example then, to form such a formation in the middle of a battle would be impossible for Phalangites, it like turning your Phalangites and form a succesfull Phalanx when just charged in your back. Something only possible in RTW:2thumbsup:.


Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla is right, if I remember correctly Herodot/Herodotus is the first to describe it used by Hoplites, it is a historical formation and thus should be possible in EB. As I understand, Irish was getting beat up, a historical general would want to save his troops in such a situation; the Square was a possibility for that.

A unhistorical possibility in my eyes, in the middle of the chaos of battle such a thing would be impossible. In RTW its just a matter of a few clicks and it takes seconds.:juggle2:

[BurningEGO]

Oh dear, these romans lovers like to use every oportunity to bully others who do not share their point of view. Maion, call the cavalry in!


Treat others as you wish to be treated yourself

Now, seriously, to answer this statement marci - if i play like a lamer, i dont really care if people call me lame. In so many years of gaming, doing such once in a while is not unusual. :clown:

Although you would certainly not find me doing any kind of square formation.

[Βελισάριος]

How did this turn from a question about a Babylonian building into a dung-tossing contest?

[A Very Super Market]

I foresee a locking in the near future. The original question was answered in post 7 anyways.

[BurningEGO]

But... Isnt the Tower of Babel suposed to be round?

[lenin96]

EB isnt historial correct and so using historical formation doesnt make them less lame, when they make you unbeatable cause of Ebs inaccurancy(Which is caused by a lot of things and some of them are hardcoded :whip::whip:). Especcialy with the weak artillery and Archers it is impossible to crack such a formation in EB. Maybe with 3gold chevron Sarmathian later Bodyguards but still hard...

EB is isn't historical? What were you thinking when you posted that?:whip:

[Zett]

How did this turn from a question about a Babylonian building into a dung-tossing contest?

After all, I posted that "square formation" pic too, so its still on topic if you discuss about it.

And about that tower, yes that has been answered.


But... Isnt the Tower of Babel suposed to be round?

There exist diffrent pictures and models of the "Etemenanki" (Tower of Babel)

http://www.isftic.mepsyd.es/w3/eos/MaterialesEducativos/bachillerato/arte/arte/x-antigu/babel.jpghttp://www.universalis.fr/images/corpus/medias/media/photo.jpg/ph070087.jpghttp://personal.telefonica.terra.es/web/jack/bruegel/cuadros/babel.jpghttp://www.blog4ever.com/artimages/18187061022010956.jpeg
Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Ca Putt]

well as far as i know the story of Tower of babel is "based" on the temple of marduk/Etemenanki which was square. whereas art made the tower of babel round as it looks much cooler, whereas it does not rely fit into the babylonian arcitecture.