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FearOrBeSori
11-06-2000, 22:45
Heh, I probably missed this discussion when it was first posted on this board but I decided that I'd like here the community's opinions over YC (yari cav) and HC (heavy cav) for multi-player gaming. (actually I remember reading and contributing to this discussion during the Dark Demo Dayz but that doesn't really count i guess). Anyway MP which is better? I am sure their camps for both that swear by each. YC definitely has its advantages. At at the cost of 242 koku for a 0 hon YC you can't find a better chaser/flanker in the game. However are YC above 0 hon even worth it? Take a look back to HC. They are slower than YC, tire more easily and are more expensive. But HC above 1 hon or higher are arguebably better than YC in any situation. Ppl argue that it can't catch a CA or YC but I ask why does that matter? a YC can't take down any non-range unit of even hon... well they can give No-D a run for they money but thats about it. Therefore YC are not a major threat that I would want to chase down I'd rather killl the YC when it attacks me. The YC may have snuck behind my army but I can easily get the unit out of there with HC or another unit. I won't be able to catch CA but it also means that the CA won't be shooting at me b/c with an HC on its tail it can't stop to shoot or the HC will quickly close the gap. If I have to I'll use my own CA to trap the enemy so I can bring my HC to bear. Sure they get tired fast but they don't seem to tire any more than monks do. And in my mind they can chase as well as any cav unit. HC puts enough pressure to keep the enemy routers moving in most cases anyway. 1 hon HC attacking head on have a chance on taking on monks. For YC its around 3 hon which puts the cost at a whopping 671 koku. HC flank as well if not better than YC. They boost the morale of ur troops,are better at killing troops, and have longer staying power. As for cost comparitively HC are cheaper. A 1 hon HC at 429 koku is better than 2 hon YC, 475 koku, and argueably just as good as 3 hon YC, 671 koku. 2 hon HC is better than 3 hon YC etc, etc... You get the point. Of course 0 hon HC aren't really worth it. If they rout they affect ur army's morale pretty negatively, they aren't really a threat to anything hon 2 or higher that is non-range and there for if u goin to be using the unit as a chaser than a 0 hon YC (YC being 242 koku while the HC costs 307 koku) is more cost effecient. Anyway I've basically done this through testing in custom battle and my own experience in multi-player. So I would appreciate comments, ideas, flames etc... I hope ppl learn from this thread especially me. Oh yea to you flamers http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net6/pokeeye.gif lol j/k I love that smiley page - Sori

[This message has been edited by FearOrBeSori (edited 11-06-2000).]

The Black Ship
11-07-2000, 05:43
I don't like HC as well as YC or SA due to cost and fatigue. HC cost too damn much! Like you said honour 0 HC aren't useful, while as rout chasers hon 0 YC work great! SA need a minimum of honour 1 to be accurate, but once they've shot their load they're damn fine rout chasers too!

On to fatigue.
What're you thinking when you see that exhausted banner flashing after a few minutes of fighting/running. I'll tell you "frickin wussy HC bastages"! Now compound that with a Winter game http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net4/splat.gif

Did oyu see it? that was my head exploding in frustration!

Magyar Khan
11-07-2000, 08:13
i like that animation, may i have it?

btw horses are fine by me , no comment on that. make them cheaper and i will win more games

solypsist
11-07-2000, 09:01
I've played several games (both against the AI and on MP) where if I see the enemy has cav, I know I've already won.
As far as campaign goes, I use my cav almost exclusively for cutting down fleeing enemy (you know, when the whole line breaks and it's a scurry-to-the-other-end of the map occurance).
I actually liek cav, and wish there were moreuses for them besides mopping up, and hitting the stray archer/musket unit.

Rob
11-07-2000, 09:17
I tend to employ a large number of Yari Samurai (usually high honour too, since they're cheap) so I usually enjoy fighting enemies who have lots of cav. One of my old fave Totomi tactics was to employ two honour 4 Yari Cav on the edges of the map and move them in behind the enemy slowly. Once the enemy was engaged, I would use the cav to attack their rear, especially their Taisho. People seem to have sussed that one out now, so I don't use it any more.

If I have Yari Cav and my enemy has Heavy Cav, I try to move my Yaris in close to their Heavies. Often they will give chase for long distances, tiring my Yari Cav but totally exhausting the Heavies, who never catch up any because they're slower!

The Black Ship
11-08-2000, 10:43
Having just experienced a well applied cavalry flanking (means I got my @ss routed) I have found new respect for the morale penalty they cause ashis.

I mean you got 60 conscripts carrying 15-20 ft long spears and they can't handle the sight of horses from out of the corner of their eyes http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif Then they told two friends...and they told two friends..and so on...and so on...

FearOrBeSori
11-08-2000, 16:19
Hehe been away from this post too long. First Black if u think HC cost too much as i've outlined HC are actually a better deal than YC at honor 1 or higher. At Hon 1 HC cost 429 koku which is cheaper than a hon 2 YC, and hon 1 HC fight better than hon 2 YC. Its true that 0 hon YC are very cheap and are great rout chasers but as Solytypist said that is what they become limited to. If you are willing to spend 429 koku or more u got an unit that can rout chase, flank, and do some head on fighting if needed. If you don't time ur flank right with 0 hon YC the enemy troops won't break (or mayb its because i'm not patient enough to get their six) and if the enemy has a spare unit left to flank ur horsies then those yc run mighty fast and take a lot of men with them. As for HC and fatigue, they do get exhausted but that is usualy from chasing routers. Ugh winter battles? Oh yea Rob i am definitely not advocating all cav armies. My armies are usually balanced with at most 3 cav units. I crack up when i see an enemy charging my lines with just YC and HC on the plains of Totomi. Very few players have gotten the better of me with that kind of army. By the way Black that game was rough too bad me and Brian couldn't whack that guy. http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net6/shinner.gif Hehe see y'all on the battlefield. My cow catapult will be waiting - Sori

[This message has been edited by FearOrBeSori (edited 11-08-2000).]

The Black Ship
11-08-2000, 18:30
Mabe I'll give HC another try. I generally am cav-light with CA as my horse of choice, but having a mobile reserve can't hurt! May stop the flanking bonus of the other guy if i can get there in time http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Well back to custom battle training for me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

FearedSangsara
11-08-2000, 18:32
Personaly I try to always have 1 unit of honour 2 YC in my army, and they are very effective if used correctly. 1st use- I dare somebody to bring their missle troops towards me without guarding them with atleast 1 unit of YS. I have had many battles where making an enemies' missle troops run back to their lines gave my footsoldiers enough time to rush the enemy without loosing 1/4th of their numbers. I also like to attack muskets with my YC (again, if they arent guarded) because routing muskets will make an enemy army a little shaky. Shaky enough that my footsoldiers will give them that final insentive to turn tail and run.

2nd use- If the enemy has some experience and knows to guard his missle troops, then I keep my YC back and dont charge with them. In this scenario, I then keep a close eye on where in my main line is it getting hairy. When I find a portion of my line that is starting to get their asses whooped, I charge with the YC. Sure, they arent great fighters, but they do good damage on that intial charge and can often sway the momentum.

3rd use- flanking. eek. Flanking with YC. I hate to do it but sometimes the enemy just isnt breaking and if somethin doesnt give soon Im gonna be gettin stormed by my fleeing troops. Flanking with YC is a delicate matter. After that initial charge, they dont do a whole lot of damage, and if even 1 pesky little enemy unit gets behind it those horsies are gone! But it has often been the saving move (and several times the final nail in my coffin)

4th use- I have had many times where, after my initial charge with my main line of footsoldiers, I will see an enemy unit starting to get close to my flank, but all my little footsoldiers are tied up and trying to disengage a unit from combat is not only hard but hellafied dangerous. The answer? Send those YC to hold them off. Sure, unless you manage to hit them on their side or back, your YC will probably lose, it may give you that extra minute you needed for your line to break through.

As for heavy Cav, I just dont use them. While I have had HC give me a hard time before, it's just not often enough for me to see the need to spend the dough. And I dont ever lower the honor of horsey units. Horses r made for tight situations and low honor and tight situations dont mix. Not for me atleast. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Sangsara

http://www.pacificcoast.net/~mudhoney/anigifs/bevis.gif

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a.k.a. Sal Paradise

solypsist
11-09-2000, 01:55
I've never been stormed by my own fleeing troops. My own men tend to not rush with angry force away from the enemy, but rather desperately.
I usually storm (def:to capture by violent, sudden attack) the enemy.

FearedSangsara
11-09-2000, 07:45
Soly,

what I meant by being stormed by your own fleeing troops wasn't that they will kill your men in their panic to get away from the enemy. But if you have a unit standing still or moving towards the enemy while hordes of your men are fleeing through, that unit is gonna be ready to run at the drop of a hat. Thats what I meant by bein stormed by your own fleeing troops.

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..................................FearedSangsara.................................
http://www.pacificcoast.net/~mudhoney/anigifs/bloodlin.gif

The Black Ship
11-09-2000, 08:53
Amen Sang,

Fleeing troops have a tremendous impact on your men. Remember it's the ranged units to the fore for most players, and a well done cav charge will send your boys fleeing. I thought fleeing ashis weren't supposed to influence the Samurai's morale, but lately I've been experiencing worrisome group routings. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

Magyar Khan
11-10-2000, 08:43
Horses? how do i have to use them? they just run around by themselves, so it seems imo...

Zen Blade
11-10-2000, 12:12
I don't like to respond in threads like these Sori....
but, I rarily get HC. And in my experience, a YC will take down a HC most of the time. Also, I like to have to YC if possible. But, it also depends on the force I am fielding... I have a pretty good cav tactic that I like to use when playing 2v2, but I have to have a partner I know well.
But, Cav really isn't that important in multiplayer if you pay attention to what is happening. The simple reason being that each player can choose any unit he wants and there will be no "follow up" battle like in the single player battles.

although, I guess we could try to make a really cool, simple multiplayer string of battles. That would be really cool.

-Zen Blade

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Zen Blade Asai
Red Devil

FearOrBeSori
11-10-2000, 21:07
Hmm Zen why don't you like responding to these kinds of threads? I find these threads to be useful b/c ppl can come away with info that will make their style of game play better. Hopefully newbies will find this discussion useful when trying to decide b/w that HC or YC in their multi-player battle. Anyway Sangs on ur 4 uses of YC, I say that Hon 1 HC would probably do those betters. The 1st: using cav as bait could be done done by any cav unit basically. I tend to think players assess either CA or HC as higher threats than YC and would therefore be more likely to send an undefended missile unit after them.
2nd: HC could go into ur break pts and not only help out ur morale but kick some arse along the way.
3rd: HC are definitely more potent in flanking b/c they can hold there own and do some damage. But of course as u said flanking is risky business if a ys gets behind them that often enought to take out ur whole army.
4th: Using cav as a sacrificial lambs. Those HC will probably last longer and could possibly win!

Lol Magy, ur horses come with "horsie tricks" built into them? http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net6/jlicon25.gif - Sori

DrNo
11-10-2000, 21:32
Lots of talk about cavalry here, but they have a big draw back and that is that a cheap unit i.e. YS/YA can give them a good kicking and ranged units also do good damage to them.

For MP I don't really see that cavalry can do a job better than infantary units unless you have a very high koku limit.

Choose say 2 YS and 2 SA/Musketeers in your army then if you see you enemy has cavlary save these units and wait for the horses to show up.
The SA will counter any CA and the YS any YC or HC and also back up the SA should the CA try h-t-h.

If your enemy dosn't have cavalry then you can use these 4 units in your main force anyway.

Much better to invest the koku in WM than any cavalry unit. They are just so flexible and will win the battle for you.

IMO, WM should be made more expensive because they are soooo gooood!

OUT4BLOOD
11-10-2000, 22:54
CAVALRY ARCHERS all the way baby!!
they drop monks like flies,if u r smart yari cav won't catch u ,good 4 mauling guns and archers and can gain u another 200 kills at the end of the game running ppl down

my record 4 Ca= kills 178 losses 15 hahahahahahhaha

The Black Ship
11-10-2000, 23:00
CA work fine for me too, it's when I try HC and YC that I falter. The only bad thing about CA is they don't seem to have quite the morale effect. Ah well, can't have everything http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif

S.O.L
11-11-2000, 01:44
I think at least one unit of YC is a must.

Not just for chasing routing units but just to keep you enemy off balance moving them around his flank.

Even if you dont engauge, when your infantry engauge and his attention is else where then run them in to the back of the fighting enemy even High Honour YS rout very quickly .

You will take heavy casualites in your YC but the enmey will rout cuasing a break in his flank then you can just hem your opponent in and usually win.

Also having played Magyar Khan online as (aggellos) , i can testify to the power of a mounted army.

But i do agree HC are a bit poor for the cost and are a liabilty at the best of times.

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The Gaming Union (http://cgi.thegamingunion.co.uk/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi)

Magyar Khan
11-11-2000, 01:49
ok ok join me and ask for my fun army, i will show u how to use all type of cav's...

Rob
11-11-2000, 02:04
OK, I will ask for your fun army and I will bring 16 Yari Sam http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

The Black Ship
11-11-2000, 02:26
Just remember Rob that CA are cav too... you may want some ranged units http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

solypsist
11-11-2000, 02:51
in heavy fog, its nice to use CA to snipe at the enemy from the flanks. against the AI, youre almost assured of being able to expend your whole ammunition supply (and sometimes the AI still doesnt respond).

Methabaron
11-11-2000, 13:37
If you want to flank, I ptrefer No-Dachi not YC, much better punch, cheaper and *fast enough* to get in time to rout enemies where you most need it.

I've always favoured a non-cavalry army although I use 1-2 units HC sometimes in 4000+ koku games to be used against monks/no dachi. YC I dont use it for the reasons above, and CA I dont use because I just don't see the point, even after playing and loosing with Magyar. I prefer standard archer units. I have never lost enough monks/no dachi's to CA's to make the tide of battle change radically.

The best counter for Cavalry archers (IMHO) is three fold:
a)Standar archers. You see CA approaching?, move your archers to counter them... SA will die faster but will reduce the CA threat well enough.
b)Naginata. For obvious reasons.
c)patience (arrows will eventually run out and what is left is hopefully a weaker army than yours if you didnt pick as many archer units as your opponent...). Keep cool, dont get nervous and wait until arrows are finished.


Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

FearedSangsara
11-11-2000, 14:31
Nope, I still like 1 unit of YC in my army. No, I dont expect them to work miracles, I dont expect them to win in HtH against anything but missle troops (although they have suprised me a few times) and its rare that I engage them in HtH unless I absolutly need them to hold an enemies' unit that is gonna flank my foot soldiers if I dont stop him. Yes, HC could do a better job of that. Agreed. However, I use my YC for mobility. Often times if I see an enemy has his missle troops guarded, then I will just send my YC wa to the side for a flank. Will I flank with them? No, not right away atleast. Usually he will send somethin, usually YS, out to get my horsies. Well, good. Thats 1 less footsoldier unit I have to worry about. Not to mention, for whatever reason people tend to use a YS unit from their flank, which makes it all the easier for my nodachi to get around their flank. Im sorry, but I have just never seen HC have enough of an impact in a game that Im willing to spend that kind of money on them. Id rather buy another unit of monks.

As for CA, bah. You use em! I wont. Yes, I had an enemy, Kocmoc I believe, who had 2 units of CA and 2 units of YC that just devastated my army. Those 4 units beat the hell out of my side and by the time I finaly got rid of them, the rest of his army was pouncing on my weakend and disorganized army. I got my ass kicked. But even still, horsies just dont compliment my style. I just like that solo YC for mobility and missle troop devastating.

Oh, 1 more great use for YC. If your opponent has a little bit of space betweem his missle units and his main army, send the YC in at the missles, immediatly followed by your main army rush. This way the main army wont take all those arrows and bullets in their noggins before they even reach the enemy lines. Just make sure you get those YC out of the way before his main army gets up to them. Otherwise they rout through your lines and u go into battle with a huge penalty.



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.....F..E..A..R..F..U..L.........FearedSangsara..........W..A..Y..S.....
http://www.pacificcoast.net/~mudhoney/anigifs/bloodlin.gif

Methabaron
11-11-2000, 16:01
Hi Feared,

Kocmoc you say, huh?

Well, I just remember a game with him where he had the exact same CA and YC... well, they never shot more than 3-4 arrows effectively in my game. Furthermore, I manage to make them rout after a while. Remember also that if you run away from the same enemy repeatedly the unit will eventually rout... well, that exactly happened to kocmoc in my game, his CA and one of the YC routed because they tried to evade some of my foot units too many times.

As you can see CA+YC sometimes can be disastrous. Magyar control them better but in the end its a game of pacience I think... wait till the arrows shower is finished... I have never had my units severly dammaged after arrows were finished...

Also Feared, how come 2 archer units (CA) "devastated" your army??, at most and if you dont do anything at all to minimize losses 2 CA units will weaken a couple of your units but not more than that. If you have at least one standard SA units you can also counter partially aswell as I say in my previous post.

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

FearOrBeSori
11-11-2000, 22:21
Heh Sangs like I said in the beginning YC and HC will both have their camps. You seem to be in the YC camp but don't worry I will spare you my wrath and not drop a cow on you. lol j/k http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net4/128.gif Congradulations on your win Sangs I wish I had been there. You have brought much honor to our clan. Lates - Sori

The Black Ship
11-11-2000, 22:40
Dang Sangsara....

If I'd only read your post sooner! Kocmoc bounced me out of the tourney last night in the first round using this method. I will never understand the morale effect, I mean I was countering his flanking with Yari so why did everyone panic http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

ShaiHulud
11-12-2000, 05:32
Correct me if this is wrong, but my experience has shown that SA/CA shootouts end up with the CA as loser, Honor being equal. Thus, flanking CA can be countered by a like number of SA. A supporting unit of YS or nearby YC eliminates the danger of a charge, because, once committed, disengagement is VERY difficult and the riposte by either YS or YC is fatal to CA OR YC. A counter-balanced group of CA/YC vs SA/YS is a push, no advantage to either. It would take a local superiority of CA/YC to overcome and that leaves a weakness elsewhere. Add a friendly YC to the SA/YS mix and the CA are at risk if over-committed.
Thus, imo, CA UNOPPOSED are dangerous but properly countered are easily nullified.
The deadliness of YS vs YC/CA is fully known. Previous posts here testify that most have NO fear of cavalry. Simple Ashigaru will fight cav, head-on, gaining morale as they do so. Imagine, impetuous Ashigaru!
Hvy Cav over Yari Cav I cannot decide on, save that one costs more. Yes, I'm told that HC meet Monks well, but so would another monk. I favor YC right now for the threat they hold against CA and SA cannot be met save with another unit. They can kill when they wish or avoid when they wish. Not so for CA or HC.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Magyar Khan
11-13-2000, 06:59
most valuable for money what fits my style is a honour 0 horsearcher. only renderd useless by people camping in the edge of a map.

if the map was infinite my fun army would be invincible. kocmok is a fine player and i am glad he uses horses.

solypsist
11-13-2000, 07:18
Now THIS is one kick-ass thread!!

this definitely needs to be put somewhere and saved...

FearOrBeSori
11-13-2000, 20:27
Ur right Shai, CA always come out on the losing end in an arty unless the CA have a significant height advantage. But in general whay would any1 want to get CA in an arty duel? You buy CA for their mobility so if ur opponent shifts the SA or YS make them chase after you and wear them out. If you u bought multiple CA's use them to harrass in multiple directions and destroy any units that ur opponent fails to rein in. Or you could use ur CA to soak up arrow fire and deplete his SA. Much better ur CA takes hits then ur Monks/Nod IMO. Anyway the person who uses CA the best is of course Magy and the idea of using SA to counteract CA is interesting I think I tried it out myself. But if you really want to negate CA, musks are much better than SA provided that you have weather on ur side. Guns really screw with low hon CA's morale. Anyway you mention that YC can kill when they wish and avoid when they wish. Just to be disagreeable I say that HC can do the same it just depends on ur degree of control. Once any unit is committed it is almost impossible to disengage short of routing them it is just a matter of choosing targets carefully. And speed wise the only unit that can catch and threaten HC is probably YC but i usually keep a tight grip on my HC so they almost never work alone and as I said almost any non-range unit can take out YC; monks, no-d, nags, yari so my HC always feel all nice and warm with one of those units at its backside. lol http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net3/yawn.gif (my smiley sayz MOOOOOOOOOOOOO!) - Sori


[This message has been edited by FearOrBeSori (edited 11-13-2000).]

[This message has been edited by FearOrBeSori (edited 11-13-2000).]

ElmarkOFear
11-14-2000, 01:22
Hello, Sang!
I use cav. archers as a distraction to the enemy. I like to take them to an enemy's flank and force the enemy to engage them, which pulls some of his force wide and allows for me to flank with my other troops. Also, once they are done with their arrows, they make great flankers themselves and can even chase down enemy archers and muskets too. You have to be wary of HC and YC though. I always check to see if the enemy has such cav., if they do, then i try to engage them with both my cav. archers and draw them into my samurai or my other missile troops. I have found in using HC and YC, once they start charging in a certain direction they find it difficult to stop and reverse/change directions, so it is fairly easy to catch them with slower troops when they try to turn. Also once engaged, they almost have to rout to get out of harm's way.
If the enemy has no HC or YC, then i take my cav. archers to the enemy's right/left flank and put them in skirmish mode. IF the enemy ignores them, they might not suffer much damage or troop loss, but when I charge in with the main body of my army or they charge at me, I get a nice morale penalty for the enemy due to my pesky little horsies. ANd if you reduce their honor to 1 or 2 they are not much more expensive than regular archers.
Good luck and may you not step in the big piles of &%#@! left behind by your charging horsies.
Elmarko of Fearful Ways

[This message has been edited by ElmarkOFear (edited 11-13-2000).]

ShaiHulud
11-14-2000, 02:43
Fear...Fine argument that is probably telling of opposing tactical approaches. I tend to see it this way..A tactical move, (such as a CA approach to my flank which is negated by SA) is at smaller cost to one defending on the interior line. The latter force is still united and presents no increased weaknesses. To CHASE a CA would result in the opposite. First, Foot chasing a Cav unit is fruitless and opens the chaser to a riposte, loss of morale for leaving his fellows farther and farther behind, and increases the Foot's exhaustion to greater degree. None of these occur with a simple negating deployment as I proposed and the onus again falls on that attacker to gain advantage. The gambit, having been met, must either be extended or admitted of failure.
If the former,additional deployments of like units would but meet similar countermeasures. If the latter only a dynamic general (of which STW can certainly boast a few) will have the flexibility to adjust and overcome. Many, tho, will be stymied yet still committed to a flawed approach.
A flexible extension would be the introduction of units of different capability and threat (WM, ND, etc) to try for a new dynamic on that wing. Simple equations (YC vs YS) that can easily be determined are thrown in total flux by the inclusion of a single WM.
My main point is that the threat of YC can be nullified easily IF it is not part of a larger, more complex, thrust.
Magyar, Your reputation precedes you and I dread to put myself at odds with your larger experience, yet.....the utility of CA I have recognized, also, but as you say, they fare ill against SA. Why would they engage in a ranged duel? They should not!
Because they should not one is forced to judge them harshly. Their speed does not offer them escape from YC, they dare not face YS, and they cannot face SA. This leaves them sniping from the fringes.
I find them useful for disrupting enemy deployments (via such sniping upon the enemies approach) for they cause timing and attention to be diverted. Send a YC after them? Fine! CA retreat early and still preserve their menace. But, they are what they are, skirmishers. Over-committed they become casualties to fleeter Cav or more accurate archers.
I've read mention of your "Fun" army and your peers rate you highly but I think you'll agree that successful use of a Cav army mandates maneuver and stratagem.
Guns....If my methods strike some as flawed it is likely because I do not mention these at all. Alas, you have the advantage of me for I rarely use them. (Takeda would've appreciated me and Oda called me a fool! hehe)
It is not by design, tho, but because I've played only against the AI and my games have mostly been settled without using guns (never gotten past Arquebusiers, in fact). I wonder if the AI even deploys them? In a few custom games I've used them and they seem realistic in effect, ie: completely destructive of the old methods of warfare. Therefore, discussions of their deployments and methods of countering them carry on with me as observer, not contributor. Yet, I feel my stands and observations on other matters may have some value.
Lastly, I favor YC, thus far, for their ability to counter CA in addition to their flanking and scouting capabilities. I'd fear to match them against HC, of course, but needn't necessarily do so. YC matched with a cheap YS gives them advantage over HC and thus, again, negates mere THREATS from HC.
Adherents of HC undoubtledly would love to show me the error of my ways and I hope, in future, to be so obliging as to learn well by their hands.

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

ShaiHulud
11-14-2000, 03:22
Um..Fear, Magyar, others..apologies where I mistakenly attributed one's statement to another. There were a lot of posts and my grey matter is fatigued by age...hehe

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Tachikaze
11-14-2000, 08:54
Come on, you guys! Using cavalry is a matter of style, not the superiority of one unit over another. If your style of play suits them, cavalry are every bit worth the cost. I, for one, love mobility.

I use a wide variety of armies. I use horse-heavy (tricky but fun), range-heavy (annoying but potentially weak), yari-heavy (safe but boring), monk-heavy (risky but they make a good impression). I have creamed my opponent with them and lost embarrassingly.

I usually have one-to-four cav units in my armies. Almost never without at least one. Why? Because I have been in situations where only a cav unit would be effective. "A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse!" However, I have had games where my YCs sat on a hill and never moved.

I don't use cav archers much, but that's because I haven't figured out how to use them, not because they are useless. I want to learn, because I think they would be dangerous and annoying if used skillfully.

I rarely use cavalry early. I have learned, by my ever-increasing glue factory surpluses, to use my cavs mainly for flanking and catching that range unit my opponent moved a little too far from it's yari friends. In this role, I don't favor either yaris or heavys (cost considered). Yaris can do well against heavys. If they can be useful slowing an HC charge, I will use yari cavs vs. heavy cavs. They usually lose, but not by much. When it's all over, the HC unit is rendered almost worthless. Good trade-off.

I would like to see Magyar and kocmoc in action. Maybe I will seek them out online. The best way to learn is to get beat by them.

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

Methabaron
11-14-2000, 15:54
Hey ShaiHulud, ( guess you read Frank Herbert's "Dune"! )

Quote Foot chasing a Cav unit is fruitless and opens the chaser to a riposte, loss of morale for leaving his fellows farther and farther behind, and increases the Foot's exhaustion to greater degree.[/QUOTE]

That's not entirely true. I have managed many times to rout enemy cavalry units trying to harass my flanks by simply chasing with a YA or YS unit for a little while, then returning back to main army. When the cavalry unit come back to harass again I repeat the process; one of the built in rules in the game is that a unit going away repeatedly from the same unit will eventually rout. And the player controlling CA can not always let the unit decide on its own where to go on skirmish mode... at some point he will have to order it move away from the incoming enemy. And so many of these cavalry units including CA routed.

Now if the opponent decides to attack with his main army at the same time he will have to be really careful to avoid his cavalry from routing... domino effects are dangerous. Only very good micromanagement and unit placement to avoid routing domino effects can make compatible a full attack combined with harassment from the isolated CA or YC which is the weakpoint.

Normally and with some exceptions (Magy included)a CA harasser will harass before the main attack but not while the main attack because things get more tricky for him.

A simple YA or a SA unit set facing the CA will be enough to negate any penalty the CA might try to inflict by staying in the flanks so a frontal attack will be handled in a normal way with the added particularity that the isolated CA can be routed now as I pointed above and that will affect his fellow engaged units if nearby !. So a CA harasser should be good at micro else think twice before engaging in such an attack.

And if he does not attack, then the answer is easy, patience and counter harass until it routs or arrows are finished!

Metha


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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

ShaiHulud
11-14-2000, 16:42
Metha, Fear...I'd guess your opponents chew tums when they play you. hehe. You both show aggressive flair. Or maybe I'm displaying a penchant for defense and counter-punching. I have both chased and been chased. I've seen my foot get decidely unsure as it followed a retreating cav unit. I've charged chasers and been rewarded with rout before contact. It's a iffy situation.
Tachikaze...I think we've been proving your case, that tactics determine the true value of a given unit in a given situation.
Re: Dune...Yah, first read it in 1967. Helluva book!

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

FearOrBeSori
11-18-2000, 02:55
Lol someone chewing tums over me? Now who would be scared of Sori ole me? Anyway I actually don't have much aggressive flair I tend to like the defense/counterpunch. As for the effects of morale i still think its pretty whacky mayb b/c the game is tryign to juggle so many different factors over so many men at once. But some quick tips on cav charging. Units moving towards guns (2 or more) always take a pretty horrendous morale loss ranging from uncertain to wavering every time. If u then make a concerted attack just as ur oppinents men reach the guns, they'll probably break and run like little girls. A cav charge would probably work to make the attacking units flee in this situation also. This doesn't always work but something ya could keep in mind. Units arty dueling guns are affected the same way. CA suffer the worse from guns and are the most easily routed. Ur guns and SA tend to be uncertain but as time goes by and losses and exhaustion set in u can easily rout his guns/range and give urself a distinct advantage. When dealing with guns, you should generally wait til you have a distinct advantage over his arty units ie ur winning the duel or if u are at least even with ur opponent (a note this mainly applies to gun duels b/c SA vs guns usually end too soon with SA running out of ammo). When ur even with ur opponent you can use ur units as a refence looking to see how tired they are/there morale and can assume that ur opponents range are feeling the same way therefore a well timed/maneovered cav charge may rout them. U might end up losing the cav to uur opponents yari but if u managed to rout his range you will many options open to u. Of course there are other ways to do this; possibly more effectively since cav and mass guns don't mix but i'm not telling http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net4/icon16.gif lol. Cav charges to the flank and rear of exhausted troops break them pretty easily that is why chasing routing troops is so effective IMO. A recently rallied unit will be tired from running like a sissy usually facing their backs towards the cav since they just stopped running and rallied. But then again i've seen all of these things i've said not happen b/c the morale system is whack! lol j/k. I think its actually pretty good with all its weird quirks! All they need to do is add a cow catapult in the expansion pack and I will rule u all! hehehe http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net4/thefinger.gif Moooooooooo! - Sori

[This message has been edited by FearOrBeSori (edited 11-18-2000).]

DragonCat
11-18-2000, 04:29
In a multiplayer battle recently I used my all foot army against an all cavalry attacker who was attempting to move his force behind us. It was only me against him.

result - I lost 34 men from my 16 60 man units. He lost 250 AND all the rest were routed!

I agree with solypsist (actually he agrees with me). Since we started online battles I have always said, if my enemy has a large cavalry presence I know I have already won.

That said, I do like yari cavalry and cavalry archers. I never bother with the heavys. I have also tried Maggy's mostly cavalry army and it is fun. Its best if BOTH players have choses it, talk about fluid fast fun battles.

I have learned to use my cavalry VERY effectively for the following: Scouting, feints at gunners and archers to make them move, setting them up for my footmen to roll them up, charges into flanks and rears AFTER battle lines are fixed in heavy melee. I can't tell you how many routs I have precipitated this way. Timing is everything.



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DragonCat
"On the prowl . . . ."

solypsist
11-18-2000, 04:40
circumstantial evidence would lead me to believe a lot of users on MP are getting quite savvy with the use of cavalry. People tend to use horses moreonce they figure out they can lower the cost by lowering the honor and so it isnt such a big chunk of their budget.
lately I've noticed more and more the presence of 1 CA and 1 YC in small-scale battles, and I never used to see them before-to amend Dragoncat's quote to a more qualified level: When I see the enemy has a unit or two of Heavy Cav, I know I've the game.

solypsist
11-18-2000, 04:43
circumstantial evidence would lead me to believe a lot of users on MP are getting quite savvy with the use of cavalry. People tend to use horses moreonce they figure out they can lower the cost by lowering the honor and so it isnt such a big chunk of their budget.
lately I've noticed more and more the presence of 1 CA and 1 YC in small-scale battles, and I never used to see them before-to amend Dragoncat's quote to a more qualified level: When I see the enemy has a unit or two of Heavy Cav, I know I've the game.

Magyar Khan
11-18-2000, 09:57
smart people will notice that my comments are rare and small in size...... a reason why the mongols had been able to conquer many countries, is that theirb opponnents were confranted with a big different style of tactics. Giving away solutions would be stupid, i already told too much. If all my trainees should combine my hints i will be doomed. sorry that i cant really participate in the discussions but i like to read them.

the best thing i can say is that it must fit your style, i am sure that horses are weak for example the map is not infinite. but i will use them cause my genes tell me to use them!

still a nice thread! watch my site at www.mongols.club.tip.nl (http://www.mongols.club.tip.nl)
still working on it but u will find valuable info on horses.....

Methabaron
11-18-2000, 12:14
Magyar,

I am not smart nor intelligent http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif but I (most of us prolly) have noticed that more than 5 lines in your posts is a great achievement. Now, if you look at the registered users in this forum for exemple, you will see that there are something like 194 members in this forum from which maybe only 50% have read this thread...

Now, you really think people reading your tips, hints, ideas or tactics is goint to make you lose more often ?

It is ok if you do not want to share with us any of your tricks, but you agree that reading other people tips is fun... come on be a sport and tell us some of yours.

I for one will exploit them and try to crush you of course, i think you still have more ears of mine than I have of yours (yes, i think I have some of yours too yes, lemme see...here). So then you will have to find new ways... maybe Alexander the Great ways?, or Saladin ways? (by the way, if you like cavalry I strongly recommend to you read about Saladin strategies during the christians Crusades in the middle ages. Saladin was one of the best Arab generals at that time and as far as I remeber cavalry was key)

But, the good thing of you sharing too is that you will not stick to the same tactics ALWAYS... this could rend the game BORING at least for you if not for us. If we can learn to counter someones great tricks then that person will be forced to move on and find something new, which probably will since the game is wide enough to allow multiple combo's that can work.

This also goes the same for Mr Zenblade which I think shares the same idea about posting...

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Now, give it a thought and let me know what you think.

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-18-2000).]

FearOrBeSori
11-19-2000, 13:17
Quote Originally posted by solypsist:
When I see the enemy has a unit or two of Heavy Cav, I know I've the game.

[/QUOTE]

Heh I tend to have a HC laying around in my armies... We never did get the chance to 1v1 yet Soly. hehe MOOOOOOOOOO! - Sori



[This message has been edited by FearOrBeSori (edited 11-19-2000).]

solypsist
11-19-2000, 16:47
wow this 2 page post thing had me really confused....sorry for the double.
but as far as trading info and strategy, i dont care. whatever results in a better game is preferable to winning by a landslide (i think my nose just got longer after that line).




[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 11-19-2000).]

Rob
11-19-2000, 17:01
My personal approach to using cavalry is this: I don't http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Heavy Cav cost too much to see them slaughtered by Yari Sam that cost a third of the price and Yari Cav rout way too easily. I tend to use No-Dachi for flanking attacks so I don't miss the Yari Cav much.

Cav Archers have given me problems when my opponent really knows how to use them, and some people certainly do. They are more of an irritant than a serious threat though, and if they get into an artillery battle with my muskets/archers, I will always win.

I suppose in a 99999 koku game (which I have not fought so far) I might use some Heavy Cav, but only because I expect my enemies to be stupid and not get Yaris when they can afford monks http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

It annoys me in team battles when my allies routinely send their cavalry out to be slaughtered. IMO only the very best players should even think about using cavalry. For most players, myself included, they're just too damn risky!

Link Shumeisan
11-19-2000, 19:13
As anyone play Amp when he uses 1 or 2 HC in his army and find him easy to beat ?
I don't http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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La mort n'est rien mais vivre vaincu et sans gloire c'est mourir tous les jours

Rob
11-19-2000, 19:49
Or when he uses h7 Yari Ashigaru http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I stick to my point: Cavalry are without a hope against organised Yari Samurai. And since Yari Samurai cost 1/3 of the amount Heavy Cav cost, I think this makes Heavy Cav a bad deal.

Of course, I never mentioned how easily Heavy Cav tire and how this makes the unsuitable for attacking purposes.... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

Magyar Khan
11-19-2000, 21:47
damn Metha i cant, if i tell u how to counter my army perfectly my winning days are over, and fullfilling my 2nd Quest will be a wonder.
The map is too small for a more better use of horses, the battle system as it is now just stick to 1 map. I miss an strategic layer between the movement between provinces and battling on a map. Like in Sid meiers Gettysburg or in Koeis Genghis Ambition u must think how to move parts of your army to or from certain battlefields to gain advantage elsewhere.
I am still thinking of constructing a gameplay like that.

at www.blackcactus.com (http://www.blackcactus.com) a new Shogun similar game is in construction where each map is 25 by 25 kilometres (16 by 16 miles or so).

I hope it is written in understandable english.
--------------
Although the enemy moves fast, a mongol arrow will get him at last.... www.mongols.club.tip.nl (http://www.mongols.club.tip.nl)

FearOrBeSori
11-20-2000, 07:19
Muahahaha my thread is the longest ever!! Rofl j/k http://cgi.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net3/rude.gif Anywayz I think Ampage is starting to rub off on me. I'm feeding ashi a lot more now and I re-examined HC and came to the conclusions i posted. To cav or not to cav? That is the question eh Rob? Comes down to a question of tactics. I used to not have any cav in my armies at all cause i sucked at cav and did want to use them (i still suck with cav and in general btw =P). IF you know the strength and weaknesses of ur army then u should always do fine. I had mainly hoped that this thread would help that poor gen trying to decide to b/w that YC or HC. Dunno if i helped any1 though i think i just wasted a lot of space lol. Hey Magy plz share soem of ur secrets that way I have a chance to saving my ears next time. I'll be sure to bring my catapult too. - Sori

Tachikaze
11-20-2000, 13:29
I've played a few more games paying special attention to cavalry. The most I use is 1 of each (1 YC, 1 HC, 1 CA). It seems I either win big or lose big.

One of my big losses, my opponent chose a yari-heavy force. Against a force that is half yari, and deployed well, there isn't much you can do if you have spent too much on horsies. When you see those forests of spears, it's similar to the feeling you get when you choose four gunpowder units, and there are raindrops on your screen.

However. in my most recent match-up, I used a YC and a CA in my force. The CA alone (teamed with a nearby YS and Nd) was worth the investment.

Oh yeah, felt goooooood!

Against the AI, cavalry are more effective. I routinely get great results in single player. But you have to be patient with them.

By the way. Does the CA arrow supply last longer than that of the SAs?

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

solypsist
11-20-2000, 13:40
Im a bit bummed when I see CA and I dont have anything to counter..the thing is, eventually they do run out of arrows.
But YC are incredibly fast and have no probs catching up with CA. How this is possible is beyond me, when you consider what each unit has to carry; I guess it's one of those "game balance" things the designers put in so that every unit has a counter-unit.

FearedSangsara
11-20-2000, 13:57
IMO, what it all comes down to is, do you know what you intend to do with the army you have?

One of the big differences between newbies and veterans is that veterans have picked a specific army and know what they want to do with that army. For instance, while lately I have been trying new tactics, for the most pasrt I have my 4000 koku army already picked. Same with 5000 koku. It often takes me 10 seconds to choose my army with those koku rates. Why you ask? Because I have developed my style of play, and I know exactly what my game plan will be when I deploy. The benefit of this is both mental and actual.

Mental) If you know your army, and know how you intend to use it, you become confident and are less likely to panic. This is SO important in this game, especially since the last patch and everything moves faster. I have had inumerous battles inwhich I was routed but, because I kept my head and the attacker did not, I was able to turn it around and win.

Actual) Knowing your army and how to use your army makes micro managing easy. If your using an army you are infamiliar with, you will be scrolling all over the place tryin to figure out exactly whats going on. With an army you know well, you can pretty much tell how it will react when it engages in battle. This allows you to pay close attention to the portions of your army that aren't a given win, and also allows you to react to an enemy's tactics faster.

So do you use cav or not? Thats up to you. For a long time I didnt. I couldnt see the use in them. Now, after needing a cav unit many times, I try to always have 1 unit of YC. Why? Because it suits my style and my army. So the question isnt just do you use them or not, the question you need to ask yourself is, will cavalry suit my army and my playing style?

When you can take the pebble from my hand, Grasshopper. Then you will be the master. http://members.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net3/smileJap.gif

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.....F..E..A..R..F..U..L.........FearedSangsara..........W..A..Y..S.....
http://www.pacificcoast.net/~mudhoney/anigifs/bloodlin.gif

FearedSangsara
11-20-2000, 14:03
Oh, and BTW Sori. Not to tip your cow, but this isnt the longest thread. There was a thread on the old org forum titled "age of shogun players" that had well over 100 replys. It would figure that something dumb like that would get the most replys.

but hey, your almost halfway there! Just start asking "Do you use YC or HC and are you male or female?" that should get 200 or so replys. http://members.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net8/shiny.gif

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.....F..E..A..R..F..U..L.........FearedSangsara..........W..A..Y..S.....
http://www.pacificcoast.net/~mudhoney/anigifs/bloodlin.gif

Methabaron
11-20-2000, 14:12
Sangs,

Knowing your army is important, yes. And I also have a "pre-selected" army for some of the tipical amounts as many other players arouns have.

But the most important thing I am learning these past weeks, specially after playing some of the best around, is that you better have the "correct" army to counter your opponent, else no matter how confident you are in your pre selected army that you will not have the optimum chances.

For exemple, I have realized that to get some chances of beating AMP, you going to need some good monks/no dachi. Monks or no dachi high moral bonus seems useful to defeat high honour ashi and 3-4 guns which are the trademark of AMP most of the time.

To get some chances to beat Magy for exemple (against his "fun" army) it seems that naginata is a good option, building a strong center and covering flanks with archers and yari. I beat magy once (just once out of three... at least with the magyarkhan name http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif ) with this army and being patient.

If you play the links Amaury and Jun are specially prone to guns and you will see sometimes up to 6 gun units in the field !!!. Here you will also need some good old high moral bonus monks/no dachi and forego yaris and cavalry in order to approach them, else you will be massacred from range.

Of course these combo's may not work next time and several players dont always use the same army composition, but the message I try to convey is that I think is better if you have a different army ready not for each koku amount but rather for each opponent !!!

Metha

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"...Violence is the last resort of the incompetent..."

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-20-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Methabaron (edited 11-20-2000).]

Tachikaze
11-20-2000, 15:38
First of all, I think it's great that the thread with the most replies (on the new, UBB Sword Dojo) is about tactics, not "Shogun Sucks" or "I found an honest-to-god, purely authentic, no BS, completely genuine, dyed-in-the-wool cheater!!!!!" or a smiley thread http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

On the topic (at least the latest tangent), I tend to keep to a standard army against random opponents, but I keep my standard opponents guessing by varying my force.

My standard army evolves, too, and varies depending on attacking or defending. I play with more cavalry now than before, because I have learned how to use them better. At least now they do some damage before they get wiped out http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

The Black Ship
11-20-2000, 18:44
Even I have my standard 5K army (including at least 1 horse), and I agree knowing your army is key. I notice that when you break to a horse army re-grouping is wwaaayyyy more difficult, especially if he keeps the pressure on (and who wouldn't http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif) Doesn't do any good hitting the rally button if YC are trying to stick a pole up your arse!

FearOrBeSori
11-20-2000, 20:03
Hehe Blackship, I only wish my 5k army stayed more standard. As it is my army's have seemingly normalized into a standard attacking and standard defending army. They work out decently well but of course special ppl need for me to choose special army selections. Oh yeah going off on another tangent on cavs. Putting ur general in HC, YC, CA? I dunno about this strat I have seen many ppl use it. In the aforementioned units a group of ashi could potential rout ur gen. Plus horsies are mad weak to range units. Basically it comes down to this; ur gen is in YC, do u really want to chase routers with ur gen? (i admittley do this with my yari gen sometimes but u guys shouldn't follow my example) Any non-range unit of equal hon can take out ur gen potentially. Gen in HC? Very popular I think many ppl are sticking with the ole campaign tactics where it was always good to put ur heirs in a unit of HC. IMO ur just depriving ur army of a powerful melee unit b/c u really don't want to fight h2h with ur gen. CA gens are very bad IMO. I have had my gen randomly rout on me as I was moving him around. In turns of other units I tend to think gens in nod and monks are bad b/c they take high causalites and die quickly but most importantly he deprives his army of that extra punch. You could think of puttin ur gen in range but my opponent kept on routing on me so i changed to Ys. - Sori

[This message has been edited by FearOrBeSori (edited 11-20-2000).]

[This message has been edited by FearOrBeSori (edited 11-20-2000).]

Obake
11-21-2000, 00:01
Sang makes a good point that less veteran Taisho should heed! As does Methabaron! Metha, I think your post will apply more to the Taisho that have enough online experience to know what to expect from other players. For instance, I am 2-2 against Magyar. The first time I won was against his fun army and I was just plain lucky! He has crushed me twice with his regulars! My other win occured because I knew what to expect from him and compensated. Even at that it was a close battle that I only won at the last minute with a desparate charge by my Taisho!

I am unskilled with Cav myself, but usually will bring one along to create distraction and cause my enemy to focus elsewhere! Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.

So, my advice to budding Taisho is to find what works for you, with or without Cav, stick with it till you know your army's every in and out, then modify it based on who you're playing.


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Obake http://members.tripod.com/smilecwm/cgi-bin/s/net8/laghost.gif

We are but shadows of our former selves and the sons and daughters of lions have become sheep. I am the ghost of our past.

FeartheolD
11-21-2000, 00:11
MMMMmmmm
Lots to digest there

Will have to have a good read.

It seems like all long posts people contradict each other.

Its not the units that win the battle its the general thats you.

Its the tactics you use with the troops and how you follow them up.

Tachikaze
11-21-2000, 00:22
I pretty much stick to putting my taisho in a yari samurai unit (attack force) or naginata unit (defense, castle, river).

I used to put it in HC. I think I had this romantic image of my leader charging, sword raised, into battle. Well, I was able to do that, just like Errol Flynn in They Died with their Boots On or The Charge of the Light Brigade; but in my romantic image, the taisho survived -- not in the reality of Shogun (or the Errol Flynn movies, by the way).

Putting a taisho in an archer unit has one possible advantage. Sometimes a human opponent will try extra-hard to charge that unit with cavs. It's a great way to lure and trap expensive troops and relieve your opponent of having to clean stables.

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A murky puddle becomes clear when it is still.

FearOrBeSori
11-21-2000, 03:06
Quote Originally posted by Tachikaze:

Putting a taisho in an archer unit has one possible advantage. Sometimes a human opponent will try extra-hard to charge that unit with cavs. It's a great way to lure and trap expensive troops and relieve your opponent of having to clean stables.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Hehe digressing from my topic again but I figure I should list some of the dangers I feel are associated with an archer gen. I used to sport one all the time but the problem with an archer gen is basically these IMO. He has to close to front lines or have a bodyguard unit. This causes a problem b/c cause if he is close to the front lines he gets scared very easily and if any of ur troops breaks it takes ur gen with them and makes it all the harder to rally them. With a non-range unit gen u can stand him back and not worry so much about that YC bearing on ur gen cause ur gen should be able to handle it. If u do decide to have a bodyguard unit then lets face it u need to take a melee unit away from ur attack just for this purpose. SA sure aren't goin to cut it as bodyguards. Guns might be able to scare off enemy cav but i wouldn't risk it. Besides I like having my guns support my attack. I've seen ppl use musk as a gen but i never tried it out and compare to using it an ashi as ur gen. It doesn't seem quite right for ur general to be a peasant. I've seen AMP sport the SA gen once in a while but I have seen his gen break on him suddenly too. I was once freaked out while we were attacking Buzen. I couldn't see him b/c I was fighting my own guy and I heard the message that his gen had broke. I was pretty shocked that AMP had routed until he told me that he had was alright he had put his gen in the front lines. Mayb a player like AMP can handle that insecurity but I can't handle that anymore. lol - Sori

[This message has been edited by FearOrBeSori (edited 11-20-2000).]

[This message has been edited by FearOrBeSori (edited 11-20-2000).]

[This message has been edited by FearOrBeSori (edited 11-20-2000).]

[This message has been edited by FearOrBeSori (edited 11-20-2000).]

Magyar Khan
11-21-2000, 07:01
my secretary spotted a challenge in here, Obake u are next after Soul...... 2 on 2, shhhhhhtttt listen closely, yeah listen

hear.............


THE MONGOLS COME AND GET U!

FearOrBeSori
12-01-2000, 15:20
Anyway just wondering if any1 has experimented with YC or HC on hold formation. Can a standing formation of YC on hold formation deal with monks? Actually can't think of a good reason to put them on hold but am curious if any1 has. BTW I recently witnessed a hon 2 YC kick my hon 2 YS gen's ass by itself... lol strange sh*t happens. - Sori

The Black Ship
12-01-2000, 18:33
If you don't have proof don't accuse someone of....oh wait....wrong thread, LOL.

Anyhow...I've been having great fun with my CA lately. Seems noone takes them too seriously, or groosly overreacts, no in between! I raked some guys NDs down to 43 before he even reacted to them, then he sent 60 YS onto my awaiting YA trying to get them!

http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Niger Navis Navis Sesquiculus ShipOfFear

Rob
12-01-2000, 18:48
I usually keep a single Yari Cav unit around for exactly that eventuality http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

I still reckon that SA and muskets can out-shoot CA in a straight artillery battle. I don't use them myself, but I reckon the art of CA is to harass the enemy's flanks and retreat once threatened.

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Honour to Clan Akai Ken

Link Shumeisan
12-01-2000, 20:07
Sori, I use YC on hold formation if I want them to disengage more quickly.
But I have not really masterd the use of them yet http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

FearOrBeSori
12-02-2000, 13:41
Hmm interesting idea Shum I'll experiment with that. Also going to try some other ideas with cav in hold formation see if anythign good pans out. Lates - Sori

solypsist
12-02-2000, 13:51
I've noticed that the enemy will run much sooner if you shoot them from behind (using CA) whilst they're engaged in the front. This may sound like a no brainer, but on some of those flat tournament maps (Totomi) it speeds things up nicely, particularly if you shoot at the enemy general's unit. Then when the enemy starts to run, you charge them with the CA.
I once managed to kill every single enemy soldier with the exception of the general's unit of Naginata, which was hidden in the Starting-Position area.

Slyspy
12-02-2000, 23:52
I usually use a CA unit as my taisho. This way he can sit behind the army out of harms way whilst using up his ammo, and then cahage in to break an exhausted enemy assault (in theory). This is especially useful since a sudden cavalry attack can break even monks if they have been fighting my infantry and are tired, and it gives my lads a bit of a lift. Of course yari infantry are a problem, and he has been caught by YC a number of times. But I work on the basis that if the enemy has got behind my lines to stab my taisho the I have lost already, or been over enthusiastic on the pursuit!

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

Rob
12-03-2000, 07:04
CA Taisho?

My main problem with cav is that they are both expensive and rout easily (esp. when against Yari Sam/Ashi or muskets). Having a Taisho in a CA unit sounds like a huge risk to me. The best use of CA I have seen involves putting them out wide and peppering the enemy flank with arrows. Of course I don't think you really want to put your Taisho out on the flank like that, so why you would use a CA Taisho is a mystery to me http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/confused.gif

I almost always use Yari Samurai for my Taisho. This makes him almost invincible against cavalry http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif and competent against all other units.

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AkaiRob Hojo
Honour to Clan Akai Ken

Slyspy
12-03-2000, 10:18
My yari infantry do a lot of fighting and even more dying, so a yari taisho does not suit my style. Only a madman would put him in an assault unit (think of the risks) and missile infantry are too near the front generally. This leaves naginta or cav archers. Naginta, though durable, are too slow to pursue or flee and again do not suit my play. Plus they don't kill much. CA on the other had can use bows and speed to stay out of trouble and can be used as a mobile reserve or flanking unit once the infantry are engaged (especially against no-dachi, missle troops and low honour monks). They are also useful in a pursuit, ensuring that your troops have missile support if the enemy rallies. Granted CA are very vulnerable to yari and guns, but I think their flexibility evens things out. Besides which it encourages you to take good care of you taisho!

solypsist
12-03-2000, 11:45
Well I just played an all CA army (it was partnered up with an ally, so there were some hand to hand units present) and I have to say all those arrows coming at you at the same time does as good a job making your men panic as anything.
But even the other guy had the brains to not use a CA general, and instead had a YC commander.

FearOrBeSori
12-06-2000, 06:08
Quote Originally posted by Slyspy:
My yari infantry do a lot of fighting and even more dying, so a yari taisho does not suit my style. Only a madman would put him in an assault unit (think of the risks) and missile infantry are too near the front generally. This leaves naginta or cav archers. Naginta, though durable, are too slow to pursue or flee and again do not suit my play. Plus they don't kill much. CA on the other had can use bows and speed to stay out of trouble and can be used as a mobile reserve or flanking unit once the infantry are engaged (especially against no-dachi, missle troops and low honour monks). They are also useful in a pursuit, ensuring that your troops have missile support if the enemy rallies. Granted CA are very vulnerable to yari and guns, but I think their flexibility evens things out. Besides which it encourages you to take good care of you taisho![/QUOTE]

CA Gen? What floats ur boat I guess, I posted on the first page in I divergence about using cav as gens, the weaknesses of a CA gen so go look for it if ur curious enough to go through all those posts. A quick note, CA may be fast but the number 1 threat to all range unit gens, YC, can still catch them and beat ur gen up easily (unless ur going to use major koku to bump that hon up a waste IMO). Also using ur gen to flank? Just be sure u pull of the flank and don't end up having a yari up ur arse. Lates - Sori

Magyar Khan
12-07-2000, 09:04
horsearchers as a general is an option but mostly it is bad. ha are cumberfull, and i also hunt for the lightfooted generals like archers muskets and so on.

Slyspy
12-08-2000, 04:39
No, I'm quite happy with my CA general. To be sure he is vulnerable, but he can run fast! Beside which I my opinion a general is more of a hinderance than an asset no matter what unit he is in. You may get a slight morale advantage by using him in combat, but you will definitly have a fleeing army if he runs or dies! It is too much of a risk to involve him in direct combat. As a CA he can do a bit of everything, move quickly and be useful while staying out of trouble. Besides which, its the army that does the fighting not the general. If the army fails then so does the general.

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

[This message has been edited by Slyspy (edited 12-07-2000).]

solypsist
12-08-2000, 08:09
the part about if the army fails so does the general is pretty much bullshit.

anyway, i wonder if this thread can be three pages long?


[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 12-08-2000).]

hach
12-09-2000, 00:32
i need a an aspirin after reading this thread.
i need to speak to a physciatrist and sort my mind out.
i will mumble "will i use yari or heavy or archer cavalry?" and start gibbering with foam at my mouth before being committed to the asylum!!!

hach

hach
12-09-2000, 15:13
see what you guys have done!!!!
i never used cavalry'but this thread has flucked me up big style.

played tosa last night and bot gotty pumped cause i was trying out things with cavalry.

ah well at least it was friendly and i learned some things in general and about tosa too.

Magyar Khan
12-09-2000, 18:31
hach, ok ok i will reveal the strength of cav for u. join me online and ask for the showcase....

btw all games are competition

greetings

hach
12-09-2000, 19:13
ok khan

i will ask for the showcase.

there are different levels of competition though khan.

hach

Slyspy
12-09-2000, 19:36
Hey Solypsist you offensive little man, what I was saying was that if your army has been beaten in battle then having your general as the only unit left fighting means that you will lose. The general, you see, cannot win a battle on his own. Hence the army is more important than the general since they can win the game without him! If that is BS then I'm the King of England.

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

[This message has been edited by Slyspy (edited 12-09-2000).]

solypsist
12-10-2000, 00:56
Assuming your strategy is sound, the big difference between a routing army and a holding one is often the general's honor. A low honor general/taisho is just as bad as having no army in the first place. No matter how good your troops are, your general runs and the men will soon follow.

Play me in MP and I'll prove the superiority of my logic over your little perfunctory cliche any day.

So I guess that does make you the Queen of England.




[This message has been edited by solypsist (edited 12-09-2000).]

Slyspy
12-10-2000, 04:24
But the whole point is that my general doesn't run because he is not commited to direct combat until the very end (if everything has gone to plan). If my army is on the brink of winning then he will help administer the coup-de-gras (spelling?!), if it has already won then he will join the pursuit. If my army is dead or running then he will either form a last stand or join the rout!

My posts are about my personal experiences and tactics, and are not submitted as an instruction book on how to play the game. For the time being these tactics suit me, and I resent someone calling them BS. I do not seek any "showdown" to prove my theories since the result would convince neither of us that the other was right, besides which I play for fun not to settle arguements and satisfy petty grudges.

I especially dislike the BS comment since I believe my opinion is as valid as anybody's, and by and large the STW community has always been very civil.

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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

The Black Ship
12-10-2000, 07:39
OK, soly you sit in that corner....sly you go to this one http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif Despite the rhetoric I'm sure you two actually are best buds http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

If the only unit you have left(as in not routing) is your taisho, then yes indeed you are in trouble. What I do is try to halt the enemy from pursuing my routing forces...and the only option I have is to use my taisho! If I can buy enough time I can rally a few troops, then it becomes a race to help my beliguered general from routing himself!

Therefore, in my opinion I must have a High Honor unit or I will die, or worse, rout. Of course that is solely due to my play style.

Sly....what do you do to rally?

Magyar Khan
12-10-2000, 11:41
and i tell u from my humble gaming experience with cavalry and generals in common. Buy a mobile strong unit and used it in the second line and look for a nice target to break.

every other unittype is valid but will be more cumberfull

my unit is a heavy cav, but a monkunit will do

ShaiHulud
12-10-2000, 14:56
My experience AGAINST cavalry is as follows:
Armies using only a few (2-3) cav units have flexibility but can be easily countered as flankers. Their REAL threat is to dance at the periphery and threaten to engage your rear. Spend too much time looking at your left and those cav on the right can cause morale damage without even engaging by moving
close enough to threaten your engaged troop's rear. The morale drop is effected just by their being there.
Cav heavy armies are best met by a combined-arms groupings. YS/Gun/YC together are extremely effective in meeting any grouping of cav units. Hold them with YS, shoot the pinned units or reinforcements and charge flank or rear with the YC. With a grouping of one each YS/Musket/YC I've met and defeated two HC/two CA wielded by a accomplished opponent.
Most devastating usage of cav (against me) has been from both flanks and rear, simultaneously. Admittedly, this takes an opposing general of high caliber but a foot army that rambles after any one segment always shows a flank of rear to another. I know how Crassus felt against the Parthians! hehe

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Wind fells blossoms, rain
fells steel,yet bamboo bends and drinks

Slyspy
12-11-2000, 06:17
Rallying the army?

I have only been in the position to rally a decent fighting force a few times. Normally the rallied units are in terrible shape, with only the taisho in any order, or everyone has legged it with the enemy in hot pursuit. In this case they cannot rally, and the taisho either dies or runs as well. However, when you can rally properly it can be immensely satisfying to turn and fight your pursuers. Winning in this situation is even better!

On another point raised above who said anything about having a low honour taisho? Although I do not regard the taisho as a front line combat unit (more a mobile reserve) I still give him as much honour as I can with out compromising the overall effectiveness of the army.


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"Put 'em in blue coats, put 'em in red coats, the bastards will run all the same!"

FeartheolD
12-12-2000, 07:47
I agree big cav presence, equals I've got it in the bag.

Although cav do have their uses.

I like to use them as bait trying to streach and pull at the enemies lines before an attack. pull them round the side and to the back then start to push at the front.

If they are low honour they might route when they get to far away but they are great for wearing down the enemy gettting him or her to march around their own flanks great

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http://feartheold.homestead.com/files/fear_the_old.gif
Keep you exits clear and your needles clean

Ieyasu
12-12-2000, 19:49
I think Mag hit a nice note on the cav concept (though I don't think I would ever use as many cav units in the army as he has in the past - I am not as agile with the controls... cav need constant attention to be administered properly in battle, that's my opinion). But Cav = mobility... and they are amazing striking forces in the second wave of a battle.

Surgically used, they can tilt the entire balance of a battle in a moment. It's wondrous to see, and a God-send in a tight match.

Only draw on heavy cav units for me: budget. Bloody expensive.



[This message has been edited by Ieyasu (edited 12-12-2000).]

FearOrBeSori
12-22-2000, 15:00
Quote Originally posted by Slyspy:


On another point raised above who said anything about having a low honour taisho? Although I do not regard the taisho as a front line combat unit (more a mobile reserve) I still give him as much honour as I can with out compromising the overall effectiveness of the army.

[/QUOTE]

Seriously in MP what is the pt of a raising a gens hon above 2? As a flanker then hon 2 is fine for whatever unit u use. If u are using monk, nag, nod and u are desperate enough to use ur gen then he should be fine. If ur gen unit is cav then no matter what yari is goin to kick ur ass but ur gen should hold for a little. If ur gen is yari then he should hold for a good amount of time too. If ur gen is range then he shouldn't be goign to melee in the first place so don't expect much. In the end ur gen should last about 20 seconds b4 he breaks unless ur unlucky enough to have ur gen get killed in the first three seconds. So u have that amount of time to either rout/kill the unit that ur gen is fighting or that amount of time to break any other unit fighting on ur line. Hell u might as well throw a range unit/units into the fray and use ur gen to flank anyway or use a range unit/units to flank for ur gen. Heh anyway the pt is ur gen will either be there to flank or at least buy u 20 seconds of time and an hon 2 gen can accomplish. That extra koku is better elsewhere in ur army, no matter what unit.

As for using ur gen as a last measure to hold off the pursuing army, in 1v1 u might as well if that is all u have left. If u have some other units left and/or u are in a 2v2 or higher then u should look what u have running and compare its usefulness to what u have. If u can possibly rally is a couple 11 men units of monks then there probably is no pt so retreat and regroup with what u have to ur partner (best choice if u have one still standing) or some high ground. Ur 60 men YS gen is better than some exhausted monks. If u could possibly rout something like 40 monks than sacrficing gen might be worth it. Some units of guns would probably worth it too.

Well I think this thread should finally go into retirement since we have pretty much covered everything on cav. The only thing that has always bothered me is the morale bonus HC is supposed to give surrounding units. Never really noticed any difference but a routing unit of HC definitely does seem to ruin ur army's morale more than any other unit except maybe the gen unit. Lates - Sori


[This message has been edited by FearOrBeSori (edited 12-22-2000).]