Red Zone

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa,

I'm working for some weeks on making maps for STW now. Before I post a new map I test it in custom battles. I did see some things happening. Units don't like woods, unless you order them to go into it, they will most likely march around it. Units don't have problems with marching in the red zone. Hence if you order a unit to go from one side of a wood to the other it might happen that units march around the woods through the redzone. I've seen a map where a unit marched in the red zone for a length of half a maps side. Hence ordering a unit to make a small walk might end up in a marathon.


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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.com

[Magyar Khan]

My opinion on red zones is simple. An attacker is allowed to use it how and where he wants. A defender should move away from the edges.
Guys like tosa make beautiful maps on which a battle to fight in the centre. To ensure a battle is challenging for the attacker a defender should move away from the edges like a boxer in a boxing match.
If moving an army is too difficult for you than pick a defending spot in the centre.

[The Black Ship]

Despite what many in my clan think I agree whole-heartedly with what Magy said. The red zone doesn't give the attacker any more advantage than an edge-hugging defender.

It's a pain in the arse trying to make sure you don't violate some "sacred rule of Shogun fair play" that only just became sacred! Damn, people have been using the red-zone since day one! Why only now is it an issue?

[CaPeFeAr]

before our clan made a policy of no redzone i enjoyed using it. during the time i was using it, i battled magyar on several occasions and never used the red zone on him. WHY?? he never used the side of the map...... lol he used the rest of the entire map but not the sides. anyways....as long as some people complain that it is a cheat we at fearful ways will not use it....budda help us if the same people say winning is cheating...

[Magyar Khan]

sadly i am not fully skilled to use it to a real benefit.

[Shuko]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CaPeFeAr:
[B]before our clan made a policy of no redzone i enjoyed using it.


I don't use the 'red light district' now after being "attacked" for accidently letting one cavalary unit pass through it in a game. Until that game I didn't even know about this rule of play!

[RageMonsta]

I understand that if defender is restricting the movement of an attacker by putting his flank close to the edge is wrong...

its a bit like reverse racism...(i know what i mean.. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif)

using that invisible wall as part of your defence is as bad as being a 'zoner'(to coin a phrase).

this issue should not ever arise during 1v1 or 2v2..as there is plenty of room to stay away from the edge..defender or attacker...
3v3 is slightly harder....

only way to solve (if that is the right word)this pain of a topic..which has cause many on line friends/game partners to have bad words is...

in 1v1..2v2...stay away from the edge..simple..3v3..well that isnt as easy..but like we generally play with no time limit/limit on ammo/fatigue....maybe it can become one of those unwritten rules...

so...defender if you are playing 1v1 ..2v2 and you hug the sides..expect to get 'zoned'..and attacker if they are not next to the side.....dont zone...and dont moan if the defender(who isnt hugging the edge)kicks up a fuss when you finish the game.

and maybe one day we can get back to fighting on the battle field and not in the forums and the chat area...

oh a small note about boxers if i may....(concerning them using the edge of the ring)....it was a well used tactic for MR ALI to use a rope-a-dope(rope hugging)..he won many fights this way...but...he payed for it in later years because of the amount of hits he took while wearing the opponent down........is there some strange message in there?...hug the edge and feel the pain later maybe..?

[shingenmitch2]

There shouldn't be a problem with using the redzone. (I consider redzone the part ON THE MAP that goes "red" when ur cursor moves over it.) You can't sit in the redzone, but u can move through it FOR A REASON. (NOTE I just learned that some guys have found a way to have ranged weapons SIT in the redzone--I would find this problematic)

It was designed into the game by EA so that a defender can't use an arbitrary map edge to anchor his army.

If you have a defender that does use the redzone as a wall -- and some sit in corners to anchor both flanks-- It is almost impossible for the attacker to not accidentally wander into the redzone while attacking.

Like MAGY says, if a defender doesn't like people attacking from redzone, don't sit on the edge of the board! :-)


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That being said -- any player that has units "disappear" and "reappear" from OFF THE MAP in behind an opponant's army is a different story. I don't consider that REDZONE play. I consider that "TELEPORTING" and illegal play as it was obviously never EA's intention to have that happen in mulitplayer.



[This message has been edited by shingenmitch2 (edited 05-29-2001).]

[Steeleye]

Tosa - to go back to your original point -
units have problems going through woods on certain custom maps because the trees are too close together - that's all there is to it! This is only a problem on some maps, but there are definately a couple where you'll find that if your army formation passes through some copses you'll find some units wondering half way across the map to avoid the wood and get back in formation! I get the impression that in the expansion pack map editor there'll be a verification mechanism to check that your trees aren't too close.

On the other point - I've always wondered how you DO 'red-zoning' - is it by using waypoints?

Kyodaispan

[Gregoshi]

The Red Zone is for loading and unloading only. There is no parking in the Red Zone... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Gregoshi
A Member of Clan Doragon

[Krasturak]

Krast's Evil Army knows how to go into the red zone.

It also knows how to use the enemy's use of the red zone to advantage.

As a result, Krast sees the use of the red zone to be allowable, except perhaps against newbies who haven't learned it yet.

Krast believes that it is fine to use any method against another player ... if you are willing to explain that method to him/her after the game.

[The Black Ship]

hey defenders...just a thought, but did you ever think about going into the red zone after the attacker? Probably not since that would require some movement http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

Don't say it can't be done....we're having a canipshin fit(is that how you spell that word?) about it aren't we? Just grab a group and point http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa Steeleye,

This problem also occurs in tiny woods. The textures used to make a wood are always the same. It is possible that the makers of the default maps were aware of this problem and put many effort in 'masking' this feature a bit. You won't run into that problem when playing ot 4th Kawanakajima or Green.

The editor that comes with the xpack seems to be able to place individual trees (a thing the demoeditor can do too, but it can handle only 100 trees). Screenshots of this editor showed a warning like: trees to close.

I haven't tested it on all default maps only on some. If you order a unit to go from a open spot to another open spot and if there's a wood between it, they will march around the woods. They wil use a 600 yards path through undulating terrain to avoid a 10 yards walk through a forest. If you want a unit to travel the shortest way, through a forest, you should first order them to enter the forest then order them to go to their final destination.

Doesn't it become more and more obvious that you didn't lose a battle because of faul play but just because things work different than one expects? Stop accusing each other of cheating please.

-Rout 'bug'.
-Woods force units to take a different way.
If they position themselves such that they get exposed by enemies they could trigger the rout bug or just rout.

You just ordered a unit to go through the woods, there were no enemies around and now THEY rout? CHEATER!

-Water in maps can cause teleporting of units. CHEATER!

-2 Heavy hth enemy armies with some muskets deployed right in front of your nose will cause your army to rout. CHEATER!

Battles are quite hectic did you have time to actualy monitor everything that happened?
CHEATER!

Ever run some custom battles or test battles online? True a nod can win from a YS. Flanking would be better. But there is a high statistical fluctuation: sometimes 53 nods will survive, then 20 under same conditions, a 3rd time they'll get beaten. CHEATER!

We are playing battles, good tactics will help, but we're also playing bingo.


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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.com