View Full Version : Any link to the word Romantic and Romans?
Hi guys,
Bit of a strange question but a bit bored currently...
So is there any cultural or historical link to the word romantic and the roman world in general
Yes, briefly a romantic language is one derived from latin,Roman; however if you mean romantic as in love or the art movement in Europe in the XVII century I have no idea.
Yeah I mean the love....
Its always about the love :2thumbsup:
Well, a thought arose in my head after thinking of romanticism, that is what modern languages have taken to describe theyr ideas of love, so no Rome had nothing to do with that, but the root of the word. (I'm not entyrely shure of what i said, It's just a connect the dots kinda thing)
tsidneku
03-11-2009, 00:52
I don't know, but if you're looking for some sort of etymological trace back to the Classical Latin that the Romans used, I don't think you will find it. It will come from some sort of proto-Gallic or Medieval Latin variant of Romanus/a/um or Romanus, i in Classical Latin. The meaning of many words twist and change when transliterated into a new tongue.
From the wikipedia Romance Languages artical.
The term "Romance" comes from the Vulgar Latin adverb romanice, derived from Romanicus: for instance, in the expression romanice loqui, "to speak in Roman" (that is, the Latin vernacular), contrasted with latine loqui, "to speak in Latin" (Medieval Latin, the conservative version of the language used in writing and formal contexts or as a lingua franca), and with barbarice loqui, "to speak in Barbarian" (the non-Latin languages of the peoples that conquered the Roman Empire).[1] From this adverb the noun romance originated, which applied initially to anything written romanice, or "in the Roman vernacular".
The word romance with the modern sense of romance novel or love affair has the same origin. In the medieval literature of Western Europe, serious writing was usually in Latin, while popular tales, often focusing on love, were composed in the vernacular and came to be called "romances".
So i guess it does come from the word roman after all.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
03-11-2009, 01:50
Yes, it has to do with Medieval Epic and Gests, two types of literature originally written in Latin. Later, they were written in French and Italian, and because the Medieval Scholars thought the Romans didn't actually speak Latin as a Vernacular they were also reffered to as "Romance" (Dante thought Vergil spoke Lombard, for example).
At the same time the content of many of these stories was Troy, and therefore it was "Roman".
machinor
03-11-2009, 02:51
Yes, briefly a romantic language is one derived from latin,Roman
So that's why they say French is the language of love... because it's derived from Latin. :laugh4:
You mixed up the terms "romanic" and "romantic". ~;)
Romanticism, the movement in literature and art had the intention to move away from the Cassical tradition of art and literature of Antiquity and focus on the traditions of their own culture, thus focussing more on Medieval art and literature. Romanticism was a counter-movement to Classicism which focused on art and literature of Antiquity. bobbin already quoted on the difference between Latin and Romantic language in Medieval writing; as Latin writings focused on the Graeco-Roman tradition, the Romanticists identified Romantic writings with a literary tradition genuine to (Medieval) European cultures and thus focused on them and saw themselves in this tradition.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
03-11-2009, 03:04
There's no such word as Romanic in English, it's properly Romantic to refer to all things of Rome.
Tollheit
03-11-2009, 04:04
No?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Romanic
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/romance
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/romantic
LordCurlyton
03-11-2009, 05:05
I fail to see that as proof, merely that "romanic" existed earlier as an English word (the M-W online entry for "romanic" notably lacks a definition, just a time, so it could be a real word or something the editors have not removed yet). "Romantic", when used in capital form (and not at the beginning of a sentence), would generally refer to either the art movement or the language set, with "Roman" used for things of or pertaining to Rome the polity/place.
Tollheit
03-11-2009, 06:10
It does not lack a definition; its definition is in its cross-reference to the synonymous "Romance".
A cross-reference immediately following a boldface colon is a synonymous cross-reference. It may stand alone as the only definitional matter for an entry or for a sense or subsense of an entry; it may follow an analytical definition; it may be one of two synonymous cross-references separated by a comma:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/help/dictnotes/cross.htm
According to Merriam-Webster, "Romanic" and "Romance" refer to the language set, but "romantic" does not and does not even exist in capital form.
Cambyses
03-11-2009, 12:34
Latin based languages are correctly referred to in English as "Romantic". ie French, Spanish, Catalan, Portuguese, Italian and Romanian? (not 100% on the last one). I can assure you of this as a professional editor. Of course, this being the internet, everone is free to disbelieve me.
French has often been referred to as the "language of love", with many a sentimental heart bewitched by its intimate lyrical sound. I suspect there may well also be an element, in historical English terms, of looking at the concept of romance as "foreign" and especially French - given our relations with the Normans, courtly love and the (overly) dramatic nature of certain horny continental men.
Over and above all the excellent technical and academic arguments already mentioned.
We shall fwee...Wodewick
03-11-2009, 13:11
a much more comprehensive link to the OED
http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50208301?single=1&query_type=word&queryword=romanic&first=1&max_to_show=10
Centrius
03-11-2009, 13:16
Dante thought Vergil spoke Lombard, for example.
This is the castle of my master, Guy de Lombaaaard!
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/Deathscythe87/frenchtaunter.jpg
Sorry, couldn't resist when I saw that name/word.
Tollheit
03-11-2009, 14:25
a much more comprehensive link to the OED
? I cannot access this without a license.
machinor
03-11-2009, 15:36
Languages derived from Latin are referred to either as "Romance languages" or as "Romanic languages" (also "Latin languages" or "Neolatin languages"), not as "Romantic languages". Romanian does belong to that group, however Catalan not IIRC.
Tollheit
03-11-2009, 15:48
Why wouldn't Catalan belong to that group? I find that hard to believe.
It sounds very much like a Romance language to my ears.
Catalan is a romance language that formed from a dialect of Occitan.
machinor
03-11-2009, 17:07
Yes, you're right, of course. I got Catalan and Basque mixed up. :juggle2:
Publio Cornelio Escipión Africano Mayor
03-11-2009, 18:00
The word "romance" comes from "Rome". When Europe was controlled by the Romans, the cultured people spoke in latin, but the common people spoke a vulgar language that was a mixture of latin and the local languages. Of this mixture the roman languages are born, like: spanish, italian, french, rumanian, catalan, vasque, portuguese, etc.
They say men fall in love with their eyes and women with their ears. The best love poems are written in a roman language. The words romance and romantic come from that.
Regards.
Aemilius Paulus
03-11-2009, 18:45
They say men fall in love with their eyes and women with their ears.
Obviously false after all the research that was done, although women to pay a bit less attention to looks then men do. But that is usually the more virtuous women.
Anyway, interesting how the French speak a Romance language but yet they were Germanic people. They borrowed quite a bit from the Gauls, and an immense amount from the Romans and yet they were basically no different (in the beginning) from the Germans that chose to speak German we know today. I guess we should blame such fate of the Franks on Charlemagne's division of his empire...
Cambyses
03-11-2009, 19:14
The word "romance" comes from "Rome". When Europe was controlled by the Romans, the cultured people spoke in latin, but the common people spoke a vulgar language that was a mixture of latin and the local languages. Of this mixture the roman languages are born, like: spanish, italian, french, rumanian, catalan, vasque, portuguese, etc.
They say men fall in love with their eyes and women with their ears. The best love poems are written in a roman language. The words romance and romantic come from that.
Regards.
Sorry to be an ass, but this comment I would dispute. Different languages, and indeed epochs, lend entirely different qualities to poetry, it is impossible to compare - other than on an entirely subjective basis.
Aemilius Paulus
03-11-2009, 19:25
Yeah, I agree with Cambyses. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder in this case. Although physical beauty, within the same culture, is usually not from the eyes of the beholder but rather rigidly set by the culture. Individual quirks happen, but the general principle is the same. Poetry is very abstract however.
Publio Cornelio Escipión Africano Mayor
03-11-2009, 19:29
I agree with you guys, but my native language is spanish, so I have to disagree too.
Cheers.
MarcusAureliusAntoninus
03-11-2009, 22:01
Romantic (love) comes from romance, which is a belief of story that is not based in fact. (Which I find funny, since love isn't based in fact, too.) Romance beliefs/stories are usually of past greatness (usually tied to nationalism and national heroes). I believe the word itself comes from French and is tied to the "romantic" image of the "perfection" that was the Roman Empire.
We shall fwee...Wodewick
03-12-2009, 18:54
? I cannot access this without a license.
That's odd, I can. Maybe you can't cause you're not in the UK.
General Aetius
03-12-2009, 21:19
According to The Shorter Oxford Dictionary the origins of romantic are[ f. romant, Romaunt (mod.L. romantia) or ad mod.L. romanticus; hence G.romantisch, F. romantique]
I also states that in 1667 it meant- Of a fabulous or fictitious character; having no foundation in fact.
Other meanings are- Fantastic,extravagant, quixotic; going beyond what is rational or practical (1671) and having a tendency towards romance; readily influenced by the imagination (1690)
I believe the modern rendition of Romantic or Romance has origins in the tales of chivalrous heroes and knights doing fantastic and impossible deeds for their ladies. These tales were usually poetry written in Romance languages (specifically French) and therefore were generally called Romances.
General Aetius
Africanvs
03-14-2009, 12:33
I find this to be an interesting topic and I think Roman and Romance have a bit to do with eachother, which is to say the Roman people, and love. The Roman people may not have had anything to do with love, but I think they like to think they did. For example, in Virgil's work the Aeniad, Aeneis is the son of the goddess Venus, the Roman Aphrodite and eventually leads the Trojans (Romans) to their new home in Italy. Aeneis had a son Iulus who gave name to the long line of the Julii, and it is true that the Julii believed they were descendants of Aeneis and therefore related to Venus. Another interesting fact is that the city Roma spelled backwards is amor, the latin word for love. Hmm. There are examples of love prevailing in Roman stories such as the "rape" of the Sabine women where the Romans basically charm them into being their wives after they capture them by pronouncing their undying love. I think there is a good reason that the word romance is synonomous with love, not merely in relation to the Roman period.
Olaf The Great
03-14-2009, 13:30
Languages derived from Latin are referred to either as "Romance languages" or as "Romanic languages" (also "Latin languages" or "Neolatin languages"), not as "Romantic languages". Romanian does belong to that group, however Catalan not IIRC.
I'm pretty sure Romanian is a Latin language.
machinor
03-14-2009, 13:41
I'm pretty sure Romanian is a Latin language.
As am I. Read the sentence you quoted again. ~;)
delablake
03-14-2009, 14:20
The word "romance" comes from "Rome". When Europe was controlled by the Romans, the cultured people spoke in latin, but the common people spoke a vulgar language that was a mixture of latin and the local languages. Of this mixture the roman languages are born, like: spanish, italian, french, rumanian, catalan, vasque, portuguese, etc.
They say men fall in love with their eyes and women with their ears. The best love poems are written in a roman language. The words romance and romantic come from that.
Regards.
Basque is definetely NOT a Romanic language...in fact, it's one of the oldest and thus weirdest languages on this planet...an ex-girlfriend of mine was Basque, and she told me "ceiling" has the meaning of "the roof of the cave", IIRC :laugh4:
delablake
03-14-2009, 14:30
Anyway, interesting how the French speak a Romance language but yet they were Germanic people. [/QUOTE]
hmmm...in fact France (in German: Frankreich = Frank-Reich, the realm of the Franks) is the only historically successful foundation of empire by a Germanic people on former Roman soil.
All the others failed utterly: Vandals, Goths, Langobards etc.
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